- Just ahead on "Black Issues Forum".

Police accountability is demanded after a car wreck leaves a Raleigh driver dead from police fire.

Virtual learning makes a reluctant return and book bans in schools seemingly target Black authors.

Stay with us.

[bright upbeat music] Welcome to "Black Issues Forum", I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Police accountability is the principal demand once again, in view of another police involved shooting death.

It was Raleigh police who responded to several afternoon 911 calls on January 11th, reporting a car accident on I-440 where a vehicle had flipped several times.

And exactly what unfolded after police arrived on the scene differs depending on who tells the story but the ending is the same.

Husband and father of three Daniel Turcios was tased then shot multiple times by police then transported to a hospital where he was pronounced dead.

Family and witnesses on the scene say Mr. Turcios was briefly knocked unconscious from the impact of the car flipping over several times and when he emerged from the vehicle, he was disoriented and confused.

One of the 911 callers who said he was run off the road by the turnover vehicle said that the driver was intoxicated.

There is currently no evidence of that.

Now an officer is on administrative leave, pending further investigation and Mr. Turcios family and a local community action group are demanding justice.

I wanna welcome Attorney Dawn Blagrove, executive director of Emancipate NC who is also representing the Turcios family.

We invited Raleigh Police Chief Estella Patterson but she declined because this incident is currently under investigation.

Attorney Blake Grove, thank you so much for making the time to come this morning.

Is Mr. Turcios's death an unfortunate outcome from a hectic and confusing situation involving police?

- I hesitate to characterize it as a hectic and confusing situation only because law enforcement are trained professionals which they like to remind us all the time.

This is what they're supposed to be able to do.

So even in the most chaotic and hectic situations, it is law enforcement that should be able to keep its head and make leveled and deliberated decisions about what is best for public safety.

That is not we believe what happened on January 11th.

- What parts or what details of the story are important here when we're talking about police accountability?

- The details of the story that are important here are the actions of the RPD officers, all of the ones that were involved.

Transparency, when and where we'll be able to see what actually happened based on the body cam footage.

And also use of force and the preservation of life.

What we believe should have happened here and could have happened here is that Daniel should and could be home with his family.

Part of police accountability is ensuring that police understand and at the center and the core of everything they do is above all the preservation of life.

And what we have seen time and time again, is that it is much too easy for law enforcement to make the decision to use lethal force when other means are available and could be used.

- And what I don't hear you saying or talking about is the person involved, the subject or the suspect, whatever the case might be in the situation.

I mean, the police don't know what the motivations of the person onsite are but they were responding to a car wreck.

So I would imagine, whoever's onsite is gonna need some aid not arresting.

- Exactly and I think that again, and I think this begs also the question of why do we need law enforcement in some of these types of situations?

It seems to me that we've gotten used to law enforcement being present, ever present at situations where they simply are not trained to be.

This was absolutely a situation that required medical expertise and understanding about the traumas and the reactions that happen after a traumatic head injury.

This car flipped multiple times.

So for the officers on the scene and even in the five day report to say that Daniel was not responding to commands after he had suffered a traumatic head injury in an accident only moments ago, where it is so often understood by the medical community that those types of head injuries will cause serious disorientation, will cause behavioral abnormalities.

None of that will seem to be taken into consideration at this point or in the incident with Daniel.

Daniel should be alive had the situation been handled by professionals who were trained to deal with the aftermath of terrible accidents, he might still be alive.

- What new information do we know from the five day report?

- From the five day report, we really don't know any new information.

What we do know is that there is a criminal investigation that is underway by the SBI of this fatal shooting.

And while that feels good and it sounds good, we also know that the SBI does not have a great record of holding law enforcement accountable here in North Carolina.

As a matter of fact, since 2010, they have never found an officer to be criminally responsible for any use of force or excessive use of force.

So that is good but it is not the end all to be all.

The other thing that we learned is that law enforcement seems to taking the position that after Daniel was shot the first time that he was still a threat.

We take very serious issue with that characterization.

And it is only with transparency and full unredacted access to the body cam footage that we will really be able to tell what unfolded on that particular day, on January 11th.

But what we know from witnesses who were on the scene after those initial rounds of fire Daniel was not a threat.

- Well, in the name of transparency, another part of this story is a small pocket knife that the police say Daniel or Mr. Turcios used and lunged at one of the officers with.

And so that created this situation where the police needed to protect themselves.

So you talk about the importance of a narrative in stories like this.

Here we've got an accusation or the question of Mr. Turcios state of intoxication or non-intoxication.

There's a weapon on site and many, many police and you know, and so-called hectic situation which you say, is not hectic necessarily so that's debatable but talk about the importance of the narrative and what the narrative in this is and what it ought to be.

- I think the narrative is really important and it speaks to a deeper societal issue surrounding the value of Black and Brown lives.

It was so easy for the media and for law enforcement to characterize this as a knife wielding man who was shot by law enforcement.

But I think it is important for you to humanize anyone who has been the victim of state sanctioned violence like Daniel was.

He was a father, he was a husband, his children look forward to seeing him.

The 11 year old son plays soccer and Daniel would often go to all of his games and play soccer with him and coach him sometimes.

This is a man that worked with his oldest son.

They would do a kitchen and cabinet installments together.

This was a family man and this was a real human being.

Was he a perfect man?

No.

But who of us is?

What he was though, was a man.

And the narrative matters because empathy matters.

- Absolutely.

- Our lives are not disposable.

Black and Brown lives matter and that is the importance of controlling this narrative.

- Well.

The city of Raleigh has a new police chief, she's relatively new.

How your relationship with Chief Estella Patterson?

- Our relationship is good.

I have not actually met her personally but several people on my team have.

And to be perfectly honest with you, we have been relatively pleased with the way that she has responded to the situation.

She seems to be intentional and deliberate, not jumping to any conclusions one way or the other.

She seems to be allowing the process to play out but also giving both parties, her officer and the victim the benefit of the doubt.

That is not something that we have always seen from Raleigh Police Department.

- Now you're demanding accountability.

What exactly does that look like?

And do you think that it's coming?

- Accountability looks like having transparency in the actions of law enforcement.

Re-establishing trust in the community.

And most importantly, reassessing the culture of law enforcement.

Accountability means that inside of law enforcement, we eliminate this us against them mentality that exists towards Black and Brown communities.

Accountability looks like when an officer does something that a citizen would do and causes harm that that officer is held accountable not just by his superiors but by the entire law enforcement community.

This situation, in our opinions shows excessive use of force that was completely unnecessary.

We want accountability to look like other law enforcement officers holding each other accountable.

And that's what we haven't seen.

And until law enforcement is really able to police itself, which we have seen over and over again it's not capable of doing, we need outside independent objective people to evaluate these types of situations, create that transparency that the community needs and hopefully reestablish trust.

- Attorney Dawn Blagrove, thank you so much for being with us today and providing more information about this story.

Certainly our hope is for peace and justice for the Turcios family and friends.

Following the holiday COVID surge, some school districts have had to decide whether or not to return to virtual learning.

And everybody's got something to say about it.

There's a lot that has changed about this pandemic so why are we still fumbling with this virus?

Let's get some perspective.

Welcoming Senator Natalie Murdock of Durham County and to Tamika Walker Kelly, President of the North Carolina association of Educators.

Ms. Walker Kelly, how did the holiday surge impact our schools, our teachers, and our students?

- Well, thank you for having me on the forum today.

To answer your question, over the past few years during this pandemic, we have seen an uptick in cases after extended breaks during the school year.

But in this particular instance, the surge has had a significant impact on our students and educators simply because of how contagious this variant of COVID has been.

And when students and educators are missing school because of the virus, it has exacerbated the already existing and staffing shortage that we are facing in our schools.

We want to keep our schools safe and open for in-person learning but we are facing real challenges in doing so.

- So because of the CDC recommendations, following a positive kind of test, that's keeping people, both students and teachers out of the mix for an extended amount of time.

So I'm wondering if maybe those CDC regulations seems like the relaxing of those helps people stay in school longer but some places are taking that and still treating this as though it were 2019.

And it's a dangerous virus but things have indeed changed.

What are your thoughts on that?

- Well, we know that the CDC has offered evolving guidance as we continue to learn more about the virus and the guidance that this CDC gives us is the minimum guidance that we should follow.

And so certainly as we look at the guidance in relation to our various school populations across the state, we know that in some places we need to exercise more than the recommended guidance.

And with all of the changing guidelines, our school districts are having to evolve their policies as well.

So yes, the quarantine guidelines, the testing guidelines that affect our school do change how many staff and students we have in our school building because ultimately we want to be safe and so we want to make sure that we are providing all of the tools necessary at our disposal in order to do that.

- And Senator Murdock, I mean, we know a lot more than we did about this virus a number of years ago and we have a lot more resources to fight it.

So how do you interpret kind of the surge in caseload and also the fears?

- Yeah, I think those fears are grounded in reality and first and foremost, since we do have President Walker Kelly with us this morning, she on behalf of all of our teachers across the state, just wanna thank them for bearing with us, for leading our children, guiding our children, educating them during this very difficult time.

They are also frontline workers.

They have put their lives on the line just simply to educate our children.

We went through virtual schooling.

Now we're back to in-person with this increase in cases.

So it's very, very concerning.

I know that a number of school districts have had a lot of staffing shortages from folks that not only are ill but are isolating because someone in their household may be positive.

So we really are gonna have to use all of the tools at our disposal but also want to acknowledge the best tool that we have is to provide better pay as well as additional resources for paid leave.

You're seeing teachers fearful of losing their jobs simply from staying home because they need to isolate.

So it really has put a microscope on our inability to fully support our public schools.

- And President Walker Kelly, because of this shortage, our governor has issued an announcement saying that state employees may now use some of their leave to try to address the absence of teachers by substituting.

Can you talk a little bit more about that?

- Yeah, so we see that Governor Cooper is working towards solutions just like we are doing here at NCAE.

And so, our teachers love having parent volunteers and community volunteers come into our school.

And while volunteers may help, they will not be able to solve the staffing shortage that we are currently experiencing.

So one of the things that we know about when volunteers come to school districts, many of them have to undergo a background check and state employees typically already have done that.

And so, they may be able to help out in our schools more easily than other people.

But one thing I want to reiterate is that this action alone will not solve our staffing shortage.

One of the things that we do know, however, unfortunately, is that our school districts do have about $5 billion in federal COVID relief funds that they can use to hire more staff and pay higher wages to attract people to come to the school systems.

And so, ultimately what we are seeing is the combination of the pandemic, plus an underinvestment in public education and ultimately, it's our students who lose out.

- Senator Murdock, well, how do you respond to all that she has said but also this move by the governor?

- Very well-stated.

I do think the governor utilize a tool that was in his toolbox but by far the most powerful tool we have are for one, to acknowledge the fears of teachers are valid.

They have a right to ask for every resource that they feel is needed to feel safe to do their job.

But as the President just stated, we have to long-term look at how refunding our teachers and our state budget.

We were finally able to get non-certified personnel at $15 an hour but at the rate of inflation, quite frankly, that still isn't enough.

We all know how expensive it is to live.

So we have to really show with our checkbooks at the state level that we are serious about supporting our teachers and our non-certified personnel.

- It's still a matter of where we're gonna put these dollars you know, putting your money where your mouth is.

Do we wanna support education or don't we?

Are we going to invest in education or aren't we?

On another education issue, conservative leaders are moving swiftly in the name of protecting kids from reading or learning about racially sensitive content.

Nationwide, many Republicans have implemented measures to restrict what they think is critical race theory.

And that has extended to challenging certain literature in schools.

A disproportionate number of the books that get challenged, it turns out are written by authors of color or who identify LGBTQ.

Senator Murdock, if these moves to avoid white shaming become successful, what's going to happen?

We don't want kids feeling uncomfortable in the wrong ways in schools but there is a certain discomfort that comes with learning about anything I would think.

- Absolutely and quite frankly, it's a part of life.

Often times in situations where I feel uncomfortable, where I'm the only woman or the only person of color.

So we all have to learn our history.

We can not whitewash our history and find it very alarming that of all of the different books that are out there and all of our literature and all the subject matter, it just so happens to be the Black history, the African-American history that we're afraid of.

And so, that should be very concerning to all of us because we played a critical role in founding this country.

Still do to this day, still serve as leaders in our local communities.

So our students should not be shortchanged by not getting all of this history.

And I think it connects to what we previously talked about.

I think all of this is a distraction to show that we are not investing in our public schools the way that we should, let's talk about that.

Let's not get lost in all of these distractions of critical race theory when the fact of the matter is we to teach all of our history and it should make us feel uncomfortable.

When it makes you uncomfortable, that will encourage you to change and to do better.

- And I think what's really just amazing to me is that we just got started on this move to increase diverse books.

It's been less than two years since George Floyd and everybody's talking about, we need inclusion and we need diversity, but maybe this was to be expected is that, well, now wait a minute, here comes the hammer to say, wait a minute, we're not gonna have any white shaming out here.

We do not want anybody feeling bad about what happened in the past.

Well, Black kids had been sitting in classrooms for years, learning about a history, learning about stereotypes and that kinda thing.

And there's been Black shaming to be honest and President Walker Kelly, what are your thoughts on what happens in the classrooms and the moves toward increasing diverse books, pushing against this move to challenge books by Black authors and other authors of color?

- Well, let me say that we have the best educators here in North Carolina.

Our teachers teach students to recognize and learn from our differences and from our past, both good and bad so that when students go out into the world, they are better prepared to live in this world of increasing diversity so that we don't repeat the mistakes of our past.

And we also, in older grades, we lead discussions and look at current events about things that are happening in the world to make learning meaningful and relevant to the lives of our students.

It is the teacher's role and skillset to do that in a way that brings their class together.

And so, I think North Carolina educators are excellent at doing that.

There are many stories of how our teachers bring our students together across differences and that is one of the great benefits of public education in North Carolina public schools.

We offer in our classroom a key component of what we call mirrors and windows so that students see and recognize themselves in each other in the world that they live in.

- Let me ask you this and I appreciate you turning the direction onto trust in the teachers who are in the classroom.

That applies to our public school teachers, how much of that kind of philosophy do you have control over for private schools and for charter schools and even public charter schools?

- Well, we have a state curriculum that is set by the expertise of our people who are trained in their content and also in child development.

Our private schools and some of our charter schools do not operate from the same guidance that comes the state.

And so we have seen across the state in many different news outlets that the curriculum in our private schools varies wildly from what we teach in our North Carolina public schools.

And that is because our North Carolina public schools are open to every single student.

And it is our job as educators to provide them with a high quality education, regardless of who they are, where they come from, what their background is.

And we have to continue to create a curriculum that reflects that.

- Senator Murdock, I'm gonna give you the last minute on this because it's important that we do have diverse books but it's also important that we don't ignore what's happening right in front of our eyes.

- Exactly, we can not ignore what's happening right in front of our eyes.

And just a few months ago, our own Lieutenant governor launched a campaign, I call it a misinformation campaign but launched a campaign to say, how are we finding that our students are being indoctrinated?

And we were unable to find any evidence of this indoctrination.

This is part of a national strategy.

In Florida just yesterday, their Senate committee moved forward a bill that said that you can sue someone if you feel discomfort in talking about discrimination.

If you feel discomfort.

My ancestors, they felt discomfort when they were shackled to the basement of slave ships.

That is the height of discomfort.

So all of this goes back to the fact that it is a distraction.

All this is a distraction, our children have the right to see themselves in education, whether it's banning books, whether it's now saying that you can sue because you feel uncomfortable.

All this gets back to us being distracted from the fact that we need to educate our children.

They need that full education so that they are fully prepared.

They need to be exposed to a number of topics so that they can be critical thinkers.

Let's provide these children with this information.

- Couldn't agree more.

Senator Natalie Murdock, thank you so much.

As well as President Tamika Walker Kelly.

- Thank you.

- A closing note.

This week, we remember a North Carolina fashion icon with roots in Durham.

Andre Leon Talley died on January 18th leaving a legacy of flamboyance and style on the fashion world.

He paved the way and created space for many Black designers and Black models.

Once again, I wanna thank today's guests and we invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify or Google Podcasts.

For "Black Issues Forum", I'm Deborah Holt Noel, thanks for watching.

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