>> TONIGHT ON "IVORY TOWER."

A FOCUS ON CRIME.

THE IMPACT POLICE HAVE ON CRIME, THE DEATH PENALTY AND CYBER-CRIME.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M BARBARA FOUGHT FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

JOINING ME IN FOR THIS WEEK'S SHOW ARE: BOB SPITZER FROM SUNY CORTLAND; BEN BAUGHMAN, FROM CAZENOVIA COLLEGE; ANIRBAN ACHARYA, FROM LEMOYNE COLLEGE; AND RICK FENNER FROM UTICA COLLEGE.

WELL, PANEL, IT WAS A VIOLENT FOURTH OF JULY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

MORE THAN 500 SHOOTINGS AND 180 PEOPLE DEAD.

AND HERE IN NEW YORK, THE GOVERNOR HAS DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY DUE TO A SURGE IN GUN VIOLENCE.

WE DISCUSSESSED POLICE REFORM A FEW WEEKS AGO AND AFTERWARDS A AUTO VIEWER WROTE IN TO ASK US WHETHER INCREASING THE POLICE RANKS ACTUALLY TAMPS DOWN CRIME.

I THINK THE PANEL HAS SOME DISAGREEMENTS ON THAT.

BEN, LET'S START WITH YOU.

YOUR EXPER EXPERTISE IS IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE.

YOU ARE A FORMER POLICE OFFICER.

MORE POLICE, FEWER CRIMES?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THERE IS A STRONG CONSENSUS WITHIN THE ACADEMIC LITERATURE THAT HAS SHOWN THE NUMBER OF POLICE OFFICERS DO REDUCE CRIME.

IN FACT A 2020 STUDY SHOWED THAT FOR EVERY 10 OFFICERS THAT YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE ONE LESS MURDER PER YEAR.

>> ANIRBAN, WHAT DOES THE RESEARCH SHOW YOU?

>> THE RESEARCH IS COMPLICATED.

IF YOU DRAW FROM THE PICTURE OF THE WASHINGTON POST ARTICLE THAT LOOKS AT CRIME FROM 1962-2018, IT SHOWS THAT HAVING A CHANGE IN SPENDING FOR POLICE BY LOCAL AND STATE DEPARTMENTS AND THE RATE OF VIOLENT CRIME ARE NOT CORRELATED.

THE CORRELATION IS ZERO.

SO THERE IS, AT THE BROADER MACRO LEVEL, THERE IS NO RELATION BETWEEN CHANGE IN SPENDING PER CAPITA AND VIOLENT CRIME RATES.

NOW THE ONE THAT BEN IS REFERRING TO BY MORE MORGAN WILLIAMS OF THE NYU STUDY, YES, IT LOOKS AT ONLY THE HOMICIDE RATES OR VIOLENT RATES AND SHOWS THAT ADDING 10 OFFICERS WOULD REDUCE-- WOULD SAVE ONE LIFE.

BUT IT ALSO ADDS VERY STRONGLY IN THAT REPORT THAT IN LARGE CITIES, WHERE THERE IS A LARGE POPULATION OF BLACK PEOPLE, LARGE POLICE DEPARTMENTS DO NOT REDUCE VIOLENT CRIME.

AND IN FACT, IT INCREASES THE LOW LEVEL ARRESTS, LEADING TO A LARGER INCARCERATION OF PEOPLE OF COLOR AND I ALSO WANTED TO ADD DURING THIS, YOU KNOW, SURGE IN VIOLENCE AND SO ON, IF OUR VIEWERS GO AND TAKE "THE NEW YORK TIMES" QUIZ, THERE IS A QUESTION THAT CLEARLY ASKS, WHERE CITIES THAT DECREASED THE POLICE BUDGET IN 2021, BECAUSE WE ARE IN 2021 AND DON'T HAVE THE WHOLE DATA, ARE MORE SUSCEPTIBLE THAN OTHER CITIES.

IT SHOWS THAT 105 CITIES WITH 200,000 OR MORE, THERE IS NO CORRELATION.

CITIES WHO REDUCED THE POLICE DEPARTMENT BUDGET ARE LIKELY TO SEE A RISE ON CITIES THAT DID NOT.

OVER A SPAN OF 30 YEARS, THERE IS NO CORRELATION.

PARSING THAT DATA DOWN A LITTLE BIT SHOWS THAT THERE IS DIFFERENT EFFECT BUT IT'S ALSO LIKE AS MORGAN WILLIAMS POINTED OUT, UNDERPOLICING AND OVER POLICING IN CITIES WITH BIG BIG BLACK COMMUNITIES.

>> LET'S GO BACK TO MEN.

>> IT'S INCORRECT.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT WE HAVE RESEARCH FROM EVANS AND OWENS IN 2007 THAT STUDIED OVER 2,000 U.S. CITIES AND THEY FOUND THAT BY ADDING POLICE, IT ACTUALLY REDUCED AUTO THEFTS, BURGLARIES, ROBBERIES AND AGGRAVATED ASSAULTS.

AND YOU HAD A STUDY BY PROFESSOR WISEBURST OF 7,000 U.S. CITIES AND THERE WAS A 10% INCREASE IN POLICE ENFORCEMENT OR POLICE OFFICERS WHICH THEN FOUND A 13% DECREASE IN VIOLENT CRIMES ALONG WITH 7% DECREASE IN PROPERTY CRIMES.

AND TO THE POINT ABOUT AFRICAN-AMERICANS P IN THE STUDY OF PROFESSOR WILLIAMS, HE FOUND-- THEY FOUND, I SHOULD SAY, HIM AND HIS COLLEAGUES FOUND THAT IT WAS TWICE AS EFFECTIVE FOR BLACK AMERICANS AS FAR AS THE AMOUNT OF OFFICERS AND THE LIMITED VIOLENCE.

BUT IT DID INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF ARREST FOR LOWER LEVEL CRIMES.

>> IT SOUNDS LIKE ICE COMPLICATED AND SOME OF THE STUDIES ARE BASED ON FUNDING AND SOME ARE BASED ON THE NUMBER OF POLICE.

BOB SPITZER, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

>> WELL, I THINK THE KEY POINT IS THAT CRIME IS MULTICAUSAL.

THERE ARE MANY, MANY CAUSES OF CRIMES.

NOW CLEARLY THE NUMBER OF POLICE AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING MATTERS.

IT IS IMPORTANT.

BUT ONE QUESTION YOU HAVE TO ASK IS WHAT ARE POLICE DOING.

IF YOU HAVE MORE POLICE AND THEY'RE SITTING BEHIND DESKS IN AN OFFICE SOMEWHERE, THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT IN ITS CONSEQUENCES THAN IF YOU ARE HIRING POLICE AND THEY'RE OUT ON THE STREETS AND THEY'RE TALKING TO COMMUNITY PEOPLE AND THEY'RE BUILDING RELATIONS AND MAKING ARRESTS AND INTERROGATING PEOPLE, RIGHT?

SO WHAT IS THE BEHAVIOR OF POLICE?

ARE POLICE IN THE COMMUNITY ABUSING THEIR AUTHORITY?

ARE THEY ENGAGING IN RACIAL PROFILING?

ARE THEY UNNECESSARILY PUNITIVE AGAINST INDIVIDUALS WHEN EXCESSIVE FORCE IS NOT CALLED FOR, RIGHT?

SO THE BEHAVIOR OF POLICE MATTERS.

THE REALM OF FACTORS THAT AFFECTS CRIME IS MANY.

CRIME GOES UP WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GOES UP.

CRIME GOES DOWN WHEN THE TEMPERATURE GOES DOWN.

WELL WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE NUMBER OF POLICEMEN ON THE POLICE FORCE?

DOES POLICING MATTER?

YES.

EVEN THE WASHINGTON POST STUDY THAT ANIRBAN MENTIONED UP ON THE SCREEN, IF YOU LOOK AT THE DATA THERE IS A POINT WHERE MORE POLICING WITH THE INCREASE OF POLICING COINCIDES WITH A DECLINE IN CRIME.

THERE IS A CRITICAL POINT ON THAT GRAPH WHERE THE LINES DIVERGE AND IT SUGGESTS THAT THERE IS A CORRELATION.

NOW IT'S ONLY CORRELATION NOT CAUSATION.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

>> VERY CLEAR IN USING THE TERM CORRELATION BECAUSE YOU KNOW, SEPARATING CAUSE AND EFFECT IN THIS AREA IS VERY DIFFICULT.

>> YES.

>> AN AREA MAY HAVE A HIGH POLICE FORCE BECAUSE OF HIGH CRIME.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE ADDITIONAL POLICE CAUSED THE CRAIM.

SO SORTING OUT THINGS LIKE CAUSE AND EFFECT CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT HERE.

>> I BELIEVE THAT CRIME HAS BEEN GOING DOWN OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES EVEN THOUGH WE'VE HAD THE FLARE-UP IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

BUT PEOPLE'S PERCEPTION OF CRIME IS THAT IT'S GREATER THAN IT IS.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> PERCEPTION IS A PERSON'S REALITY SO THAT DOES MATTER.

AND TO BOB'S POINT WHERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT EFFECTIVE WAYS OF POLICING AND GAINING THE TRUST OF THE COMMUNITY, THAT IS ESSENTIAL AND WHAT WE HAVE FOUND WITH THINGS LIKE PROBLEM-ORIENTED POLICING, YOU HAVE ABOUT A 38% DECREASE IN STRATEGIES SUCH AS THAT.

WHEN YOU ARE ENGAGING THE COMMUNITY, YOU HAVE THEIR TRUST AND THEY HAVE YOUR TRUST, YOU KNOW, THAT IT'S MUTUAL; THAT THAT'S EFFECTIVE IN REDUCING CRIME.

>> THERE IS ANOTHER PROBLEM THERE.

WHOSE TRUST ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

AS WE'VE TALKED ABOUT MANY TIMES ON THIS SHOW, RACIAL DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF TRUST AND ADDITIONAL POLICE TO ONE NEIGHBORHOOD MEANS ONE THING TO ANOTHER NEIGHBORHOOD MEANS SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT.

>> I WOULD ADD ONE OTHER THING N. TERMS OF THE ENVIRONMENT AND WHAT AFFECTS CRIME.

ONE OF THE REASONS CRIME HAS DECLINED STEADILY FROM THE 1990S TO THE PRESENT EXCEPT FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS PERHAPS, IS THE COHORT IN THE POPULATION MOST PRONE TO CRIME, WHICH IS YOUNG MALES, DECLINED DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME.

RIGHT?

THE OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF CRIME IS COMMITTED BY YOUNG MALES.

SO WHEN THAT'S A SMALLER PROPORTION OF THE POPULATION, YOU HAVE LESS CRIME.

SIMPLY AN ARTIFACT OF DEMOGRAPHY.

THERE IS A WORLD OF STUFF GOING ON.

>> AFTER CRIME COMES PUNISHMENT.

THIS WEEK THE US ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND PUT A HOLD ON FEDERAL EXECUTIONS.

UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION 13 PEOPLE WERE PUT TO DEATH • THE FIRST SUCH EXECUTIONS IN A LONG TIME.

GARLAND SAID HE STOPPED THEM SO THE DEPARTMENT TO REVIEW POLICIES AND PROCEDURES • ESPECIALLY THOSE RELATED TO ARBITRARINESS IN THE SENTENCES AND THE IMPACTS ON PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO, BOB, WHAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SHOULD BE LOOKING AT IN THIS REVIEW?

>> WELL, I THINK ALL THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REALLY NEEDS TO DO IS LOOK AT THE ABUNDANT EXISTING STUDIES ABOUT CAPITAL PUNISHMENT.

I MEAN THE VERDICT IS IN ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT AND IT HAS BEEN FOR YEARS.

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT IS NOT GOOD CRIMINOLOGY PUBLIC POLICY.

IT DOES NOT DETER CRIME.

IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE THAN LIFE IMPRISONMENT I.

HAS NO BENEFICIAL EFFECTS AND THE ONLY ARGUMENT ON BEHALF OF THE DISEAPT DEATH PENALTY IS REVENGE.

AN EYE FOR AN EYE.

IF THAT'S THE BEST ARGUMENT A MATURE SOCIETY LIKE THE UNITED STATES HAS, THEN IT'S NOT MUCH OF AN ARGUMENT.

THE DEATH PENALTY HAS BECOME A PERVERSE POLITICAL THEATER WHERE, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP EMBRACED THE DEATH PENALTY AS A WAY TO SHOW THAT HE WAS A TOUGH GUY.

BUT THAT'S A LOUSY WAY TO EFFECT PUBLIC POLICY.

THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN GRADUALLY MOVING AWAY FROM THE DEATH PENALTY AFTER MOVING BACK TO IT AFTER THE SUPREME COURT GAVE THE GREEN LIGHT TO IT IN THE 1970s AND YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT THE DEATH PENALTY IS APPLIED UNJUSTLY IN TERMS OF RACE AND IN TERMS OF SEX, BY THE WAY.

IT'S FUNDAMENTALLY BARBARIC, IMMORAL AND YOU CAN ARGUE ON THE MORAL QUESTION MUCH MORE LENGTH.

BUT I JUST THINK AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY, IT SIMPLY MAKES NO SENSE AND WE'VE GOT TO FIND A WAY TO EXTRICATE IT FROM USING IT AS A POLITICAL CLUB TO SHOW THAT PUBLIC OFFICIALS ARE TOUGH.

>> THERE IS ONE OTHER ISSUE THAT I THINK NEEDS TO BE RAISED HERE.

THE DEATH PENALTY IS IRREVERSIBLE.

AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT PERHAPS THERE ARE 4 OR 5% ON DEATH ROW ARE, IN FACT INNOCENT.

WE'VE SEEN A NUMBER OF CASES RECENTLY WHERE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SERVING VERY LONG PRISON SENTENCES HAVE BEEN RELEASED BECAUSE OF ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WHETHER DNA OR OTHER EVIDENCE HAS COME THROUGH TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE, IN FACT, NOT GUILTY.

AND CLEARLY AS I SAID, IF SOMEONE IS PUT TO DEATH AND WE FIND OUT AFTER THE FACT, THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO.

SO I THINK THAT ADDS TO WHAT BOB HAS SAID ABOUT THE ARGUMENTS AGAINST USING THE DEATH PENALTY.

>> AND I JUST WANT TO ADD THAT IN TERMS OF PUBLIC OPINION, WE HAVE COME QUITE FAR, RIGHT?

LIKE GALLUP IN 2019 ASKED WHAT DO YOU THINK IS A BETTER PUNISHMENT FOR MURDER?

IS IT LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE OR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT?

AND 60% OF AMERICANS AGREED IT IS LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE BUT WHEN THEY CHANGE THE QUESTION TO JUST SIMPLY ASKING WHAT IS, YOU KNOW, -- IS DEATH PENALTY A RIGHT FOR MURDER, 56% SAID YES.

STILL THAT IS DOWN FROM PREVIOUS YEARS.

AND I JUST WANT TO ECHO THIS IDEA THATY WHY,-- THAT YES, DEATH PENALTY IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL.

IT SHOULD BE CONSIDERED CRUEL AND UNUSUAL AND YES, IT SOUNDS MUCH LIKE REVENGE THAN JUSTICE.

AND ESPECIALLY AND ESPECIALLY THE POSSIBILITY OF SOMEBODY BEING INNOCENT, IT'S TERRIBLE TO PUT SOMEONE ON DEATH ROW.

AND YOU KNOW, YES, THESE PEOPLE PERHAPS HAVE COMMITTED HORRIBLE CRIMES WITHOUT REASONABLE DOUBT.

BUT DEATH PENALTY IS ABOUT WHO-- NOT, YOU KNOW, JUSTICE IS NOT ABOUT WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE.

IT'S ABOUT WHO WE ARE AS A SOCIETY.

AND I THINK ABOLITION OF THE DEATH PENALTY IS IMPORTANT.

>> THE ONE ARGUMENT THAT DOES NOT RESONATE WITH ME IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT.

PUTTING SOMEONE IN A CELL OF A FEW SQUARE FEET WITH NO HUMAN CONTACT FOR POTENTIALLY 40 YEARS IS PRETTY HARSH PUNISHMENT ITSELF.

SO I MEAN-- I'M NOT SAYING THAT THEY DON'T DESERVE HARSH PUNISHMENT BUT THAT'S THE ONE ARGUMENT AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY THAT HAS NEVER RESONATED WITH ME THAT IT'S SOMEHOW WORSE THAN BEING IMPRISONED WITHOUT A CHANCE OF PAROLE.

IN FACT, MANY PRISONERS SAY TO THEIR LAWYERS THAT THEY WOULD RATHER BE PUT TO DEATH THAN TO SUFFER THAT PENALTY-- I'M AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY BUT THAT'S THE ONE THAT I HAVE THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH.

>> WE CAN'T FORGET ABOUT THE VICTIMS AND THE VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENTS THAT THEY GET TO DELIVER IN A LOT OF THESE CASES.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE THAT HAVE GONE TOO FAST OR HAVE BROKEN INTO A HOUSE AND STOLEN SOME CHANGE.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE THAT HAVE KILLED OTHER PEOPLE WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE DEATH PENALTY.

IT TENDS TO BE AN EMOTIONALLY CHARGED THING TO DEBATE.

I DO WANT TO ADD ON TO THIS ASPECT OF THE PERCENTAGE, DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE INCARCERATED.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING HERE AND WHAT WAS POINTED OUT BY ONE OF THE STUDIES THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, MORGAN WILLIAMS, JR. FROM NYU, IS THAT WE HAVE ABOUT 13% AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE UNITED STATES BUT THEY ACCOUNT FOR 50% OF THE MURDERS SO THAT DOES ADD INTO THIS DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW.

THE AVERAGE IS ABOUT 19 YEARS THAT THEY'RE ON DEATH ROW.

I COULDN'T FIND ANY CASES WHERE, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT SOMEONE WAS INNOCENT BUT THERE ARE STRONG CASES OR STRONG EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THE PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW ARE POSSIBLY INNOCENT.

>> SINCE 1973 THERE HAVE BEEN 200 PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW EVENTUALLY LET OUT OF PRISON ENTIRELY.

DO WE KNOW OBJECTIVELY THAT THEY WERE OBJECTIVELY INNOCENT, WELL, WE DON'T KNOW BUT THAT'S NOT THE STANDARD WE USE IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE AND IN TRIALS.

>> BEN, I KNOW THAT MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON DEATH ROW ARE IN THE STATE SYSTEM.

SO DOES THIS FEDERAL MORATORIUM REALLY HAVE MUCH IMPACT BECAUSE IT'S UP TO THE STATES WHERE MOST OF THE FOLKS ARE?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND WE'VE GOT 29 STATES AT LAST COUNT THAT STILL USE THE DEATH PENALTY AND STILL ARE USING IT.

IT'S DECLINED EVERY YEAR FOR THE LAST 18 YEARS CONSECUTIVELY.

IN THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE PUT TO DEATH WITH THE DEATH PENALTY.

BUT WE ARE MOVING IN THE DIRECTION TO THERE BEING LESS STATES AND LESS OFTEN AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO EVENTUALLY GET TO A POINT WHERE WE ARE KNOT NOTED USING THE DEATH PENALTY.

>> WELL THIS ONE LESS SEEN BUT SO POWERFUL, IS CYBER CRIME.

CRIMINALS INJECT SOFTWARE THAT DISABLES THE COMPUTERS OF A SMALL BUSINESS OR COMPANY UNTIL THEY PAY A RANSOM WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE LARGEST RANSOMWARE ATTACK EVERY OCCURRED THIS PAST WEEKEND AND TRACED TO A GROUP R EVIL IN RUSSIA.

PRESIDENT BIDEN WARNED VLADAMIR PUTIN THAT HE WOULD COME DOWN HARD ON RUSSIA IF PUTIN CONTINUED TO PROTECT THESE HACKERS.

WHAT SHOULD BIDEN DO?

>> SASS A NATION, WE NEED TO INCREASE OUR DEFENSES.

TECHNOLOGY HAS REALLY TAKEN OFF AND AS WE ARE MORE INTERCONNECTED, MORE INTERDEPENDENT, AS SOFTWARE BECOMES MORE COMPLICATED, THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES TO EXPLOIT THESE AND GROUPS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO ENGAGE IN THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS GOING TO BE ONGOING, YOU KNOW, AS WE SOLVE ONE PROBLEM, BAD GUYS ARE GOING TO FIND ANOTHER WAY OF GETTING INTO THE SYSTEM.

BUT WE REALLY NEED TO IMPROVE OUR TECHNOLOGY.

THE SECOND THING IS WHAT HE IS DOING WITH RESPECT TO PUTIN.

GOING AFTER THE HAVENS THAT PROTECT THESE GROUPS THAT ARE INVOLVED IN THIS BEHAVIOR.

AGAIN, THE PROBLEM IS THAT MOST OF THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE HAVENS ARE THOSE THAT WE ALREADY HAVE LUKE WARM AT BEST RELATIONS WITH.

SO THIS IS GOING TO BE A PROTRACTED NEGOTIATIONS AND IT'S GOING TO BE A WHILE, I THINK, BEFORE THIS BEARS ANY FRUIT BUT WE NEED TO DO THAT.

WE CAN ALSO TRY TO RETALIATE DIRECTLY AGAINST THE ORGANIZATIONS USING TOOLS, CYBER TO TRY TO ATTACK THEIR COMPUTER SYSTEMS, OR INDIRECTLY, THROUGH SANCTIONS AGAINST THE HAVENS.

AND LAST THING THAT WE CAN DO IS TO TRY TO REDUCE THE BENEFIT THAT THESE GROUPS GET FROM THIS.

NOW ONE WAY OF DOING THIS IS BY DISCOURAGING ORGANIZATIONS FROM PAYING THIS RANSOM.

BUT THAT'S VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE WHILE IT'S GOOD FOR ALL OF US TO DO IT, WHEN ONE COMPANY IS FACED WITH, YOU KNOW, PAYING A COUPLE MILLION DOLLARS OF RANSOM OR POTENTIALLY LOSING ALL OF THEIR BUSINESS AND THEIR REPUTATION, YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO IS PAY THAT RANSOM.

THE OTHER THING WE CAN DO IS-- AND WE ARE TRYING TO DO-- IS RECAPTURE THE PAYMENTS MADE TO THESE COMPANIES WITH COLONIAL PIPELINE THEY PAID LIKE $4.4 MILLION IN TERMS OF ABOUT IT COIN BUT THE FEDS WERE ABLE TO RECAPTURE A FAIR AMOUNT OF THAT.

SO I THINK IT'S A MULTIFACETED ATTACK TO THE PROBLEM.

>> YEAH, AND I THINK THE PREVENTATIVE COMPONENT OF THIS IS HUGE AND PARTNERING WITH THE PRIVATE SECTOR THAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN AHEAD OF GOVERNMENT.

AND THAT'S WHERE IT'S ADD.

WE NEED TO PARTNER WITH BUSINESSES THAT HAVE SPECIALTIES IN THIS AREA AND EXPERTISE IN THIS AREA.

>> ANIRBAN, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS.

>> THE BATTLE OF THE BINARIES HAVE BEGUN.

THE CYBER CRIME IS NOW AN INDUSTRIAL OPERATION.

IT'S NOT LIKE WHAT WE SEE ON TV THAT SOMEBODY IS IN SOMEBODY PARENTS BASEMENT EATING PIZZA PLAYING VIDEO GAMES.

IT'S A LARGE INDUSTRIALIZED OPERATION SPANNING MASSIVE PARTS OF THE GLOBE.

THEY'RE STATE ACTORS AND NON-STATE ACTORS.

I MIGHT REMIND MY VIEWERS THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS THESE CYBER WEAPONS.

AT ONE POINT IN TIME, SHADOW BROKERS, THEY SAID THEY HAVE THE CYBER WEAPON THEY GOT FROM THE NSA AND WILL SEND IT OUT TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AND WE SAW THAT HAPPEN.

WE ALSO SAW THE VIRUS THAT ATTACKS IRAN.

PEOPLE SAID THAT IT WAS MANUFACTURED BY ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES, RIGHT?

SO ALL STATES WOULD HAVE THESE CYBER WEAPONS.

THEY'RE GOING TO USE IT AGAINST EACH OTHER.

SO YOU KNOW, THE BEST DEFENSE IS, AS YOU ARE POINTING OUT, AS IN CHESS, THEY SAY, A SMART OFFENSE IS THE BEST DEFENSE.

SO THE UNITED STATES HAS TO BE ON THE OFFENSIVE AND YOU KNOW, HAVE TO KIND OF DISCREDIT THESE ORGANIZATIONS.

AND IF THEY CAN'T GET TO THOSE PEOPLE, AT LEAST THEY CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN THAT THEY CAN'T OPERATE WITHIN THAT GLOBAL, YOU KNOW, UNDERWORLD INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> HERE'S THE THING.

THE UNITED STATES HAS THE GREATEST ABILITY TO HACK OTHER NATIONS, BUT WE ARE ALSO A GLASS HOUSE; THAT IS TO SAY, WE ARE COMPLETELY VULNERABLE TO ATTACK OUR COUNTERATTACK.

AND WHAT-- THIS IS THE GREATEST SECURITY THREAT WE HAVE FACED TO DATE.

AND WE NEED TO RETHINK THEORIES OF DETERRENTS.

MY NOTION IS TO COMPARE TO NUCLEAR DETERRENTS, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT THING IN CERTAIN WAYS BUT SIMILAR IN OTHERS.

THERE IS NO THEORY OF DETERRENTS RIGHT NOW AND THAT IS FUNDAMENTAL POLITICAL AND POLICY PROBLEMS THAT WE NEED TO DEVELOP TO TRY AND STABILIZE AT LEAST THIS HACKING PROBLEM.

>> NUCLEAR DETERRENTS, AT LEAST WE KNEW WHERE AND WHO WE WERE FIGHTING.

HERE IN THE CYBER WORLD, IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO PINPOINT EXACTLY WHERE PEOPLE ARE INTO ATTACK THEM.

I AGREE WE NEED TO GO IN THAT DIRECTION BUT I THINK IT'S A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT.

UNTIL RECENTLY, WE WERE GUESSING WE THINK THE ATTACK CAME FROM?

>> THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY.

I THINK THEY KNOW FULL WELL WHO THE ATTACKERS ARE.

THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE ASYMMETRY OF IT.

YOU COULD HAVE AN OFFICE BUILDING WITH A BUNCH OF PEOPLE IN IT THAT CAN BRING DOWN THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF AN ENTIRE NATION.

SO WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A HUGE SPENDING ON THOUSANDS OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, FOR EXAMPLE.

WITH NORTH KOREA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH HAS SO FEW RESOURCES BUT THEY HAVE A TREMENDOUS ABILITY TO TACK US OR-- HACK US OR OTHER NATIONS AND WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO DEAL WITH THE ASYMMETRICAL NATURE OF THE THREATS WE FACE.

>> WE NEED TO BE THINKING GLOBALLY AND WORKING WITH INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

>> WE HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF INSTANCES, FAYETTEVILLE SCHOOL DISTRICT, ALBANY AIRPORT.

HAPPENING HERE IN CENTRAL NEW YORK.

LET'S SEE WHO DIDN'T DO WELL.

BOB SPITZER.

WHAT IS YOUR F. >> AN F TO J.D.

VANCE WHO WROTE A BOOK WHICH HAS BEEN MADE INTO A POPULAR MOVIE AND HE IS RUNNING FOR THE SENATE AS A REPUBLICAN FROM OHIO.

NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT'S.

BUT HE IS GETTING AN F FOR APOLOGIZING FOR HIS HIGH LOY CRITICAL COMMENTS OF DONALD TRUMP IN ORDER TO WIN THE GOOD GRACES OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS IN OHIO.

HE THINKS THAT SELLING HIS SOUL IS NECESSARY TO RUN FOR PUBLIC OFFICE.

IT IS NOT.

>> BEN.

>> MY F GOES TO A PRISON GUARD ACCUSED OF SMUGGLING DRUGS AND RICE CRISPY STREETS TREATS.

THE GUARD WAS FIRED AFTER TRYING TO SMUGGLE PRECIPITATION STIMULANT PILLS INTO A SOUTH CAROLINA WOMEN'S PRISON BY HIDING THEM INTO RICE CRISPY TREATS.

>> AN ANIRBAN.

>> FOR THE SAKE OF JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY, THE F SHOULD GO TO ME BECAUSE I GOT THE DUTCH PRIME MINISTER AUTOS WRONG LAST WEEK.

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT CORRECTION.

AND RICK, YOUR F. >> RACHEL NICOHOLS, WHITE NBA REPORTER FOR ESPN RECENTLY APOLOGIZED FOR MARIA TAYLOR AFTER IT CAME OUT THAT SHE HAD SUGGESTED THAT SHE HAD GOTTEN AN ASSIGNMENT TO BE AN NBA SIDELINE REPORTER BASED UPON HER RACE.

THIS COMES A COUPLE WEEKS AFTER JAYLN ROSE, A BLACK FORMER NBA PLAYER WHO IS ALSO AN ESPN COMMENTATOR HAD COMMENTED THAT KEVIN LOVE, A WHITE NBA BASKETBALL PLAYER HAD BEEN NAMED TO THE OLYMPIC TEAM AS A MEASURE OF TOKENISM.

I'M NOT SURE IF THE F IS DESERVED BY ROSE AND NICHOLS BECAUSE THEY RELIED ON THE RACE CARD TO OBJECT TO A PERSONNEL DECISION THEY DIDN'T LIKE OR WHETHER IT'S TO THE CANCEL CULTURE WHICH IS CAUSING US NOT TO BE ABLE TO DISCUSS THIS ISSUE IN ANY WAY.

ALL I KNOW IS THAT THE RACIAL SITUATION IN THIS COUNTRY IS MAKING IT DIFFICULT TO HAVE A REASONED DISCUSSION ABOUT THESE FACTORS.

>> AND As BOB.

>> WELL, RICK, I'LL HELP YOU OUT.

F FOR BOTH.

I'M GIVING AN A TO TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY WHICH OPERATES A UNIQUE 52-ACRE CENTER TO TRAIN RESCUE WORKERS ON THE BEST TECHNIQUES FOR RESCUING SURVIVORS FROM COLLAPSED BUILDINGS AND SIMILAR STRUCTURES.

I HAD NO IDEA THIS FACILITY EXISTED.

IT'S A TERRIFIC IDEA AND IN THE LIGHT OF THE COLLAPSE OF THE APARTMENT BUILDING IN FLORIDA RECENTLY, YOU CAN SEE WHY THIS CENTER IS SO HELPFUL.

>> AND BEN.

>> MY A IS GOING TO TWO BOY SCOUTS THAT SAVED A DROWNING WOMAN IN MISSOURI IN JUNE.

THE FLOODWATERS CAUSED THE BANKS TO BURST, CAUSING OVERFLOW ZONES AND THINGS LIKE BASKETBALL COURTS TO TURN INTO NOT SWIMMING POOLS BUT DEFINITELY THINGS WHERE PEOPLE WERE AT RISK.

AND THEY HEARD A WOMAN CRYING, DOMINICK VIET AND JOSEPH DEENER AND BOTH OF THESE SCOUTS EMBODY THE VALUES OF SCOUTING AND ARE HEROES FOR RUNNING AND SAVING THIS LADY AND GETTING HER MEDICAL ATTENTION.

>> GOOD FOR THEM.

AND THEY WERE JUST SUCH DELIGHTFUL SMILES ON THOSE FACES.

>> MY A TO NICOLE HANNAH JONES FOR DECLINING THE TENURE AND THE DONORS WHO HELPED HER SECURE $20 MILLION TO ESTABLISH A NEW CENTER FOR JOURNALISM DEMOCRACY AT THE HOWARD UNIVERSITY.

YOU GO NICOLE HANNAH JONES.

>> AND RICK.

>> MY A GOES TO STACY MARSHAL.

STACY LIVES IN RURAL NORTHWEST GEORGIA AND SHE STANDS TO INHERIT A SMALL 300-ACRE FARM THERE.

SHE FOUND OUT RECENTLY THOUGH THAT HER FAMILY HAD OWNED SLAVES THAT HAD WORKED ON THAT PROPERTY IN THE PAST AND SO SHE IS NOW OPENED UP A DIALOGUE TO TRY TO DETERMINE WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING FOR HER TO DO AT A TIME WHEN WE ARE NATIONALLY TALKING ABOUT REPARATIONS, I FIND THAT SHE HAS COURAGE AND INTEGRITY TO TRY TO ASK THE QUESTION, WHAT AM I PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR MY FAMILY'S PAST BEHAVIORS?

>> AND WE HAVE TO CALL IT A RAP FOR TONIGHT BUT WE ALWAYS LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

YOU CAN WRITE US ON THE ADDRESSES ON THE SCREEN.

IF YOU MISS THE SHOW FRIDAY NIGHT, IT REPEATS SATURDAY AFTERNOON AT 5:30 OR IS ONLINE.

GOOD NIGHT.

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