>> THIS WEEK ON BLACK ISSUES FORUM, FEDERAL POLICE REFORM ATTEMPTS FAIL, BUT LOCAL TALKS CONTINUE.

OUR PANEL WEIGHS IN ON THE DEBT CEILING AND INFRASTRUCTURE FUNDING, AND A DUKE UNIVERSITY BUILDING HONORS ONE OF ITS FIRST BLACK GRADUATES.

STAY WITH US.

♪ WELCOME TO BLACK ISSUES FORUM, I'M DEBORAH HOLT-NOEL.

NEGOTIATIONS FOR FEDERAL LEGISLATION ON POLICE REFORM ONCE AGAIN HALTED ON SEPTEMBER 22ND WHEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FAILED TO REACH AN AGREEMENT.

BUT THE FIGHT CONTINUES IN STATES AND LOCAL COMMUNITIES IN NORTH CAROLINA'S OWN WAKE COUNTY, ATTENTION HAS BEEN DRAWN AROUND AN INVESTIGATION INTO BETTER IN RALEIGH POLICE DETECTIVE OMAR ABDULLAH WHO USE FALSIFIED EVIDENCE FROM A CONFIDENTIAL INFORMANT OR C.I.

TO JAIL AS MANY AS 15 PEOPLE.

ONCE DISTRICT ATTORNEY LAUREN FREEMAN BECAME AWARE BACK IN FEBRUARY OF 2020, SHE DROPPED CHARGES ON MANY OF THE CASES AND PLACED THE DETECTIVE ONCE NAMED EMPLOYEE OF THE YEAR ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE.

AT A RECENT COMMUNITY FORUM ON POLICE REFORM ORGANIZED BY NONPROFIT EMANCIPATE NC, COMMUNITY MEMBERS SPOKE OUT DEMANDING JUSTICE.

FOR MORE ON THIS I WANT TO WELCOME THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF EMANCIPATE NC DAWN BLAGROVE.

DON, SO PLEASED TO HAVE YOU WITH US TODAY.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOUR WITH YOU DEBORAH.

>> AND I KNOW THAT THERE HAS BEEN AN UPDATE ON THE PROGRESS ON THIS CASE CAN YOU SHARE THAT WITH US?

>> YES.

APPARENTLY, EARLY YESTERDAY MORNING THERE WAS A SETTLEMENT IN THIS CASE, A 2 MILLION DOLLAR A SETTLEMENT WAS REACHED BETWEEN THE 11 OR SO PLAINTIFFS IN THE CITY OF RALEIGH, WHICH IS A HUGE VICTORY FOR THE FOLKS THAT WERE DIRECTLY IMPACTED, BUT DOESN'T GO FAR ENOUGH TO REACH THE PROBLEM OF REAL POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> AND I WOULD IMAGINE THAT COMMUNITY MEMBERS ARE MORE THAN THINKING THAT THIS IS A CASE OF A BAD APPLE IN THE BUSHEL.

HOW FRUSTRATED ARE PEOPLE ABOUT ON THE IMPACT OF THIS SPECIFIC CASE AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THEIR COMMUNITIES, OVERALL?

>> PEOPLE ARE EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED.

AS ANYONE WHO WATCHED THE FORUM THAT EMANCIPATE NC HOSTED LAST WEEK THURSDAY, YOU COULD SEE AND FEEL THE ANGER AND THE FRUSTRATION OF THE PEOPLE.

IT WAS PALPABLE IN THE ROOM.

THIS IS NOT A SITUATION OF ONE BAD OFFICER BECAUSE JUST FOR THE RECORD THERE WERE 7 OTHER OFFICERS CITED IN THE LAWSUIT.

THIS IS NOT JUST ONE PERSON WHO WENT ROGUE.

THIS IS A WHOLE DEPARTMENT THAT NEEDS TO BE DEEPLY AND HIGHLY SCRUTINIZED.

AND ONCE AGAIN.

WE ARE FACED WITH THE DILEMMA THAT POLICE CANNOT POLICE THEMSELVES.

>> AND THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR QUITE SOME TIME, THE DISGRUNTLED KIND OF POSITION OF THE COMMUNITY AND WAKE COUNTY AND RALEIGH POLICING, WHAT MAKES THIS AN ISSUE FOR BLACK COMMUNITIES?

>> WELL, WHAT MAKES IT AN ISSUE FOR BLACK COMMUNITIES, UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S SYSTEMIC AND INSTITUTIONAL RACISM THAT RESULT AND SHOWS UP IN A WAY THAT DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND NORTH CAROLINA IS NO EXCEPTION WHERE BLACK PEOPLE MAKE UP ONLY ABOUT 24% OF THE POPULATION, WE MAKE UP MORE THAN HALF OF THE INCARCERATED POPULATION IN NORTH CAROLINA AS A RESULT, ANY DETRIMENTAL IMPACTS ANY BIASES THAT EXIST WITHIN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACT BLACK FOLKS.

SO ANY CRIMINAL JUSTICE ISSUE IS A BLACK ISSUE.

>> AND WE STILL OFTEN TALK ABOUT STATISTICS AND SO FORTH BUT WHAT'S CAN YOU KIND OF SHARE A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT THE PERSONAL IMPACT IS ON THE LIVES OF THESE PEOPLE, I MEAN THESE GENTLEMAN WENT TO JAIL.

AND THERE HAD TO BE AN IMPACT ON THEIR LIVES AND THEIR FUTURE AND THEIR FAMILIES.

>> AS DETAILED IN THE WONDERFULLY DRAFTED PLEADING FOR THIS FEDERAL LAWSUIT, MANY OF THESE FOLKS ONE OF THESE WOMEN, ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT WAS ARRESTED WAS A WOMAN WHO WAS ARRESTED ONLY WEEKS AFTER GIVING BIRTH TO A CHILD.

SHE SPENT TIME IN JAIL AWAY FROM HER CHILD RIGHT AFTER SHE HAD DELIVERED ANOTHER ONE OF THESE PEOPLE WHO WERE FALSELY ACCUSED WAS ALSO IN THE MIDDLE OF CANCER TREATMENTS, MANY OF THEM ALMOST ALL OF THE 11 FOLKS THAT WERE FALSELY ARRESTED LOST EMPLOYMENT, LOST INCOME, LOST MONEY, WHEN THEY WERE FORCED TO PAY BAIL BONDSMEN TO GET OUT OF JAIL.

THE ECONOMIC IMPACT AND THE SOCIAL IMPACT ON INDIVIDUAL LIVES WHEN THEY BECOME JUSTICE INVOLVED ARE INCALCULABLE BUT FOR THESE FOLKS IN PARTICULAR.

WE CAN SEE HOW THAT SYSTEM HARMS THEM AND HOW THEY WERE HURT BY BAD POLICING AND A FAILURE ON THE PART OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY TO REALLY TAKE SERIOUSLY HER ROLE OF HOLDING LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE AND BEING TRUE TO THE PEOPLE.

>> AND SO THERE'S A CALL FOR CHANGE.

WHAT IS EMANCIPATE NC ASKING FOR IN TERMS OF A CHANGE?

>> WE ARE ASKING FOR THINGS THAT ARE NOT GROUNDBREAKING THINGS THAT AT THIS POINT SHOULD JUST BE COMMON SENSE.

NUMBER ONE WE'RE ASKING THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS RECORDS, DISCIPLINARY RECORDS BE RELEASED TO THE PUBLIC.

WE ARE ALSO ASKING THAT LAUREN FREEMAN WHO WAS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY OF WAKE COUNTY CURRENTLY, TAKE REAL SERIOUSLY, AND LOOK THROUGH A VERY, VERY SCRUTINIZING LENS CASES THAT ARE BROUGHT TO HER BY RALEIGH POLICE DEPARTMENT.

WHAT WE KNOW FOR SURE IS THAT THERE IS CORRUPTION INSIDE OF THE RALEIGH POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND IT IS NOT JUST ONE OFFICER AND JUST FOR THE RECORD, NONE OF THESE OFFICERS HAVE BEEN FIRED.

ALL OF THEM ARE STILL ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE AND DRAWING PAYCHECKS.

SO THE REALITY IS THAT WE NEED TO SEE SOME SERIOUS CHANGES IN THE WAY POLICING HAPPENS.

WE NEED AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIVE AGENCY THAT IS DEDICATED SOLELY TO POLICING THE POLICE.

WE NEED AN INDEPENDENT OFFICE INSIDE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE WHOSE JOBS IT IS TO SOLELY PROSECUTE LAW ENFORCEMENT IN A WAY THAT IS NOT BIASED IN A WAY THAT KEEPS THE COMMUNITY SAFE.

THESE ARE JUST A FEW OF THE THINGS THAT EMANCIPATE NC IS ASKING FOR.

>> HOW QUICK, I MEAN HOW CLOSE ARE WE TO GETTING ANY OF THAT HOW CLOSE ARE YOU TO GETTING ANY OF THAT?

>> I CAN TELL YOU THAT AS LONG AS WE HAVE BEEN FIGHTING FOR THESE THINGS, WE ARE NO CLOSER NECESSARILY TO GETTING ANY OF THESE THINGS IN ACTUALITY.

THE REASON FOR THAT IS VERY SIMPLE IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO POLITICAL WILL.

WE HAVE A DISTRICT ATTORNEY WHO CLEARLY BELIEVES THAT WHILE THERE ARE PROBLEMS IN THE SYSTEM, IT'S NOT HER JOB TO COURSE CORRECT TO FIX THOSE PROBLEMS.

WE HAVE A DISTRICT ATTORNEY HERE IN WAKE COUNTY LAUREN FREEMAN WHO'S MORE THAN HAPPY TO PUT THE ONUS ON THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FOR CHANGING LAWS WHICH SHE KNOWS FULL WELL THAT SHE HAS THE POWER WITHIN HER OFFICE AND THE DISCRETION TO MAKE CHANGES THAT ARE REAL AND SUBSTANTIVE TOWARDS CREATING EQUITY, AND SHE JUST REFUSES TO DO THAT AND -- [BOTH TALKING] >> I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, WE STARTED OFF TALKING ABOUT THE NATIONAL EFFORT, THE FEDERAL LEGISLATION THAT'S OUT THERE WE HAVE JUST ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT ANY MOVEMENT ON FEDERAL LEGISLATION FOR POLICE REFORM?

>> WELL AGAIN I THINK THAT WHAT WE SAW AND THE FAILURES THAT WE SAW ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL ALL REVOLVES AROUND QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

WE HAVE GOT TO REMOVE FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT THIS IDEA THAT THEY ARE UNTOUCHABLE AND THAT THEY SHOULD NOT BE HELD PERSONALLY LIABLE FOR THE HARM THAT THEY CAUSE WHEN THEY VIOLATE THE TRUST OF THE COMMUNITY.

THE FAILING OF THE FEDERAL LEGISLATION IS DISGRACEFUL.

>> WELL THE COMMUNITY IS STILL WAITING FOR SOME CHANGES AND LET'S HOPE THAT THERE WILL BE SOME CHANGES FORTHCOMING.

DAWN BLAGROVE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING AND SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AT THE TOP OF NEWS THIS WEEK FRET OVER OUR AMERICAN DEBTS BOTH PAST AND FUTURE.

>> IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT CONGRESS ADDRESS THE DEBT LIMIT.

IF NOT, OUR CURRENT ESTIMATE IS THAT THE TREASURY WILL LIKELY EXHAUST IT'S EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES BY OCTOBER 18TH.

>> IT WOULD BE INCREASED INTEREST ON CAR LOANS, CREDIT CARD BILLS, MORTGAGES, ANYTHING THAT YOU'RE PAYING INTEREST ON.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE DONE.

>> WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN AND THE STATES -- >> WELL, IT'S NOT FAST ENOUGH >> OR TO GET IT OUT THE DOOR.

AS I INDICATED IN MY OPENING STATEMENT IN RESPONSE TO A PREVIOUS QUESTION, THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO DO THIS HAD TO BE BUILT AND THE BASIC -- >> THERE WAS PLENTY OF TIME FOR THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO BE -- OUR FED PROGRAMS, OUR PPP PROGRAMS, ALL OF THOSE EXPEDITIOUSLY GOT MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO NEEDED THAT.

THIS IS A COMPLETE AND ABJECT FAILURE.

THURSDAY NIGHT, CONGRESS VOTED TO EXTEND TO DECEMBER 3RD THE DEADLINE TO MAKE A DECISION TO FUND OUR GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES.

WE KNOW ALSO THE DEBT CEILING HAS BEEN IN PLAY AS WELL AS TWO INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGES.

A 1.5 TRILLION DOLLAR ROADS AND BRIDGES PACKAGE THAT HAS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT AND A LARGER 3.5 TRILLION DOLLAR BUILD BACK BETTER INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN.

WHAT'S IT ALL REALLY MEAN FOR YOU AND ME?

I WANT TO WELCOME THIS WEEK'S PANEL DOCTOR SHANTE WILLIAMS, CEO OF BLACK PEARL GLOBAL INVESTMENTS, DOCTOR HENRY MCCOY PROFESSOR AND DIRECTOR OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP AT NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL UNIVERSITY, AND PATRICK HANNAH OF THE NATIONAL BLACK CAUCUS OF STATE LEGISLATORS CORPORATE ROUNDTABLE.

WELCOME TO ALL 3 OF YOU.

I WANT TO OPEN UP WITH YOU DOCTOR MCCOY, COULD YOU JUST GIVE US SORT OF A SNAPSHOT OF WHAT WE'RE FACING AS WE LOOK AT THESE FOUR AREAS, A POLITICAL ECONOMIC CONCERN, THE FUNDING OF THE GOVERNMENT THE DEBT CEILING, THE 1.5 TRILLION DOLLAR PACKAGE AND THE 3.5 TRILLION DOLLAR PACKAGE.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU DEBORAH.

SO JUST A SNAPSHOT IN TERMS OF THE DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT, SO THE FISCAL YEAR FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GOES FROM OCTOBER 1ST TO SEPTEMBER 30TH AND SO THAT'S WHY WE WERE RUN UP AGAINST THIS CRITICAL DEADLINE, OF COURSE TODAY BEING THE BEGINNING OF THE FISCAL YEAR, AND FROM THAT STANDPOINT SIMPLY AMOUNT OF CONTINUE TO KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OPERATIONAL, SO YOU KNOW, DOES IT HAVE TO RESORT TO PAY ITS EMPLOYEES AND SO YOU KNOW THE DEBT SPENDING BILL FOR THE CONTINUED GOVERNMENT HAD NOT PASSED THEN A LOT OF FEDERAL WORKERS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SHOW UP TODAY.

SOME FOLKS CAN STILL GO BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

IN TERMS OF THE DEBT CEILING, THAT'S A SITUATION WHERE WE AS A COUNTRY HAVE TO PAY OUR BILLS, AND SO RIGHT NOW THE EXPECTATION IS THAT SOMEWHERE AROUND THE MIDDLE OF THE MONTH, OCTOBER 18TH, THAT'S WHERE WE RUN UP AGAINST THAT DEBT CEILING, AND IF WE DO NOT EXTEND IT, WE WILL HAVE SOME ISSUES WITH PAYING OUR BILLS.

AND SO THAT CERTAINLY IS A HUGE ISSUE IN THIS QUESTION ABOUT WILL AMERICA DEFAULT ON ITS BILLS.

IN TERMS OF THE GOOD TO.

THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO 1.5 TRILLION DOLLARS AND 3.5 TRILLION DOLLARS, IT'S REALLY CENTERED AROUND DIFFERENCE IN PHILOSOPHY BETWEEN REPUBLICANS DEMOCRATS PROGRESSIVES MODERATES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

THE 1.5 TRILLION DOLLAR BUDGET REALLY IS AROUND THOSE MORE FUNDAMENTAL THINGS THAT WE THINK ABOUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE, ROADS AND BRIDGES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

3.5 TRILLION DOLLARS IS WHAT SOME FOLKS ARE CALLING THE SOCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

SO THAT INCLUDES EVERYTHING FROM CLIMATE CHANGE ISSUES, UNIVERSAL PRE K, FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGE, AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE, SO IT REALLY IS A PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATE ABOUT WHAT SHOULD AMERICA BE SPENDING THEIR MONEY ON.

>> WELL, PHILOSOPHICAL IS RIGHT.

I WANT TO ASK YOU PATRICK, HOW MUCH OF THIS IS GAMESMANSHIP AND MORE IMPORTANTLY WHAT DOES IT REFLECT ABOUT THE COHESION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY?

>> IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION DEBORAH.

I THINK IT YOU CORPORATE ROUNDTABLE IS APOLITICAL, SO ONE OF THINGS WE TRY TO DO IS LOOK AT THINGS PRETTY OBJECTIVELY.

ONE THING THAT I THINK IT'S PRETTY UNIQUE IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE CONTROL OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

AND THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, AND SO I THINK THAT THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY TO PASS MEANINGFUL REFORM, WHATEVER THE PUBLIC POLICY IS A LITTLE MORE SWIFTLY.

TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE AS WE LOOK AT CALENDAR, 2022 WILL BE ANOTHER ELECTION YEAR.

SO I THINK THEY'RE ON THE CLOCK, HAVE MEANINGFUL REFORM TO GET TO PEOPLE THAT THE MOST BECAUSE WORKING FAMILIES ARE HURTING, PEOPLE NEED JOBS AND THE QUICKER YOU HAVE THESE POLICIES TO BE IMPLEMENTED TO INCREASE THE DEBT CEILING TO PASS THESE INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGES, TO DEAL WITH INFRASTRUCTURE SUCH AS NOT ONLY OUR AIRPORTS AND WATERWAYS BRIDGES BUT ALSO MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES TO INTRODUCE A NEW EMERGING ECONOMY SO WE CAN CREATE JOBS FOR THE COMMUNITIES THAT NEED IT MOST, SUCH AS ELECTRONIC VEHICLES, AND AUTONOMOUS VEHICLES WHICH IS A LOT OF INVESTMENT GOING ON.

SO I THINK THE TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE I THINK THAT YOU HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE POLICY, WE SHOULD DO SWIFTLY AND DO IT IN A MEANINGFUL WAY BECAUSE THE PUBLIC NEEDS THINGS TO BE SOLVED.

>> DOCTOR WILLIAMS, YOU KNOW ONE OF THE PRIMARY ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE LARGER INFRASTRUCTURE PACKAGE IS THAT IT'S FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT IF IT GETS PASSED PRESIDENT BIDEN IS PLANNING TO PAY FOR THIS LEGISLATION TO INCREASE TAXES ON THE WEALTHY SO WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS PARTICULARLY AS A BUSINESSWOMAN?

>> WELL, I WILL SAY THIS TAKES ME BACK TO MY CAPITALISM CLASS IN MY MBA PROGRAM.

SO I PERSONALLY BELIEVE TAXES ARE A PART OF OUR SOCIAL CONTRACT WITH EACH OTHER.

SO AS A BUSINESS OWNER AS A BUSINESSWOMAN I ABSOLUTELY RELY ON GOOD INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE COUNTRY TO MAKE SURE THAT MY EMPLOYEES CAN GET THERE ON TIME TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE CHILD CARE TO MAKE SURE THAT MY BUSINESS HAS THE BROADBAND OR WHATEVER ELSE IT NEEDS.

THE ROADS ARE GOOD.

SO FOR ME, YES, IT IS AN EXPENSIVE BILL.

IT IS A HIGH VALUE BILL, BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD CONTINUOUSLY, GUESS WHAT, THE PRICE GOES UP.

YOU KNOW THE PRICE IS NOW HIGHER, AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE MORE MONEY AND MORE TAXES FROM THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN PAYING LESS OVER TIME AND BENEFITING FROM TAX CUTS.

FOR ME IT'S A GOOD THING.

I THINK WE NEED TO PASS THIS BILL.

IT WILL PROBABLY BE ANOTHER ONE SOON, I MEAN IF WE JUST LOOK AT THE CONDITION OF OUR NEIGHBORHOODS, LOOK AT THE CONDITION OF BUSINESS INVESTMENT IN THE U.S. LOOK AT THE CONDITION OF RESEARCH.

WE NEED THOSE TAX DOLLARS WE NEED THIS KIND OF A CAPITAL INFUSION INTO ALL OF THESE AREAS TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU KNOW AMERICA CONTINUES TO GROW AND THRIVE.

>> LET ME GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS DOCTOR MCCOY, YOU KNOW WE TALK ABOUT 1.5 TRILLION 3.5 TRILLION, BUT WHEN WE DRILL DOWN TO WHERE THIS HITS US AT HOME HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA HERE IN OUR COMMUNITIES, YOU KNOW WE AS BLACK BE PEOPLE AS CITIZENS, WHAT ARE WE REALLY AGITATING FOR OR NEEDING IN THESE FOR INFRASTRUCTURE BILLS THAT MAYBE PEOPLE ARE REALLY QUITE THINKING ABOUT.

>> I THINK DR WILLIAMS GAVE A GREAT POINT IN TERMS OF THE IDEA THAT THERE IS THIS SIMPLY A SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT HISTORICALLY HAS BEEN BETWEEN BUSINESS OWNERS EVEN THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND THE IDEA OF PAYING TAXES TO SUPPORT THIS INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS AMERICA FOR MANY MANY YEARS, AND EVEN CONTINUING TODAY, I MEAN WE KNOW THAT THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS BLACK FOLKS IN AMERICA HAVE NOT SEEN EQUAL KIND OF INVESTMENTS IN THE COMMUNITY IN A NEIGHBORHOOD AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE, SO THERE'S REALLY LONG DEBT THAT IS OLD AND SO WHAT WE SEE IN THIS LARGE 3.5 TRILLION DOLLAR PACKAGE AROUND THIS KIND OF SOCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE REALLY SPEAKS TO THIS IDEA OF ARE THERE WAYS TO INVEST IN COMMUNITIES THAT OTHERWISE HAVE NOT BEEN GETTING ACCESS TO CAPITAL.

SO WE MAY BE TALKING ABOUT HBCUs THAT REALLY FOR THE FIRST TIME A VERY LONG TIME HAVE GOTTEN SOME FEDERAL FUNDS THIS PAST YEAR, BUT IS STILL NOT ENOUGH FOR ME.

YOU CAN'T GO DECADES WITHOUT INVESTING IN ALL OF A SUDDEN PUT RESOURCES IN WE TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGE WHICH WE KNOW AFRICAN AMERICANS END UP HAVING HIGHER LEVELS OF STUDENT LOAN DEBT THAN ANY OTHER GROUP AND THAT IMPACTS THINGS LIKE WEALTH CREATION JOB CREATION BEING ABLE TO BUY HOMES, EVEN SENDING YOUR OWN KIDS TO COLLEGE.

WE TALK ABOUT UNIVERSAL PRE K THINGS OF THAT NATURE SO THESE ARE THINGS THAT REALLY SPEAK TO THIS IDEA OF WHAT THE BLACK COMMUNITY NEEDS AND AS YOU MISTER HANNAH SAID, IT ALSO SPEAKS TO THESE NEW EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE AND SO THIS REALLY IS SOMETHING THAT IS AND CAN BE VERY INSTRUMENTAL IN TERMS OF MOVING THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

>> AND I WANT TO GET TO ALSO TALKING ABOUT HOW WE GET THE REFORM HOW WE AS A NATION GET THIS KIND OF REFORM PASSED PATRICK, THERE'S TALK ABOUT RECONCILIATION AND A KIND OF A RELUCTANCE TO MOVE THAT DIRECTION IF WE IF THE DEMOCRATS GO TOWARD RECONCILIATION TO GET THIS LEGISLATION PASSED.

WHAT'S THE COST?

WHAT HAPPENS?

WHAT'S THE DAMAGE?

>> I THINK DR McCOY MAKES A GOOD POINT.

IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION THAT YOU KNOW OFTEN TIMES WE DON'T REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO SOME OF THE RHETORIC THAT'S GOING ON IN WASHINGTON, BUT WE FOCUS ON REALLY WHAT'S IMPORTANT IN OUR HOUSEHOLDS SO, THE NATIONAL DEBT IS OVER 26 TRILLION DOLLARS.

WE PRINTED OVER 6 TRILLION DOLLARS IN THE LAST 12 MONTHS DUE TO COVID, AND SO WHEN BLACK AMERICA SEES THAT, RECOGNIZING THAT HEY, THERE'S MONEY BEING PRINTED BUT IT'S NOT SHOWING UP IN YOUR MAILBOX DUE TO VARIOUS REASONS, SO SOME OF THE CHALLENGES WITH WITH HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS IS ALSO FRUSTRATING AND WE USE WORDS SUCH AS RECONCILIATION BUT THE GENERAL PUBLIC PROBABLY HAS NO UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THAT ACTUALLY MEANS.

WHAT REALLY IS IMPORTANT IS HOW DO WE CLOSE THIS WEALTH GAP IN THE STANDPOINT OF HAVES AND HAVE NOTS AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY WHERE WE ARE, IT'S TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND HOW DO WE CREATE JOBS FOR OUR COMMUNITY, CLOSING THE WEALTH GAP, AND ALSO DEALING WITH SO MANY SYSTEMIC AND DISPARITY ISSUES WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> SOME MONUMENTAL CHANGES TAKING PLACE IN OUR NATION AND HERE AT HOME.

DUKE UNIVERSITY RECENTLY ANNOUNCED IT WOULD RENAME ITS WEST CAMPUS SOCIOLOGY PSYCHOLOGY BUILDING AFTER ONE OF THE FIRST 5 BLACK UNDERGRADS ADMITTED TO THE UNIVERSITY, THE RUBIN COOK BUILDING IS NAMED AFTER WILHELMINA REUBEN COOKE WHO WAS A CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS WHILE ON CAMPUS AND WENT ON TO BECOME A DISTINGUISHED ATTORNEY AND PROFESSOR OF LAW.

SHE PASSED AWAY IN 2019 AND IS THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO HAVE A DUKE UNIVERSITY CAMPUS BUILDING NAMED FOR HER.

THIS ACT SEEM TO FOLLOW A TREND OF SORTS RECENTLY IN RALEIGH, A MIDDLE SCHOOL FORMERLY NAMED AFTER JOSEPHUS DANIELS THE N&O PUBLISHER AND EDITOR WHO WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN INCITING THE THE WILMINGTON RACE RIOTS.

AND NEWLY NAMED OBERLIN MAGNET MIDDLE TO HONOR THE OBERLIN NEIGHBORHOOD THAT WAS ORIGINALLY SETTLED BY FREE BLACKS.

OF COURSE JUST ABOUT A MONTH AGO, THE HUGE STATUE OF CONFEDERATE GENERAL ROBERT E LEE WAS REMOVED IN RICHMOND, VIRGINIA, SO DOCTOR WILLIAMS ARE THESE MOVES SYMBOLIC, OR ARE THEY REFLECTIVE OF A NEW UNDERSTANDING?

>> WELL, I ABSOLUTELY THINK THEY'RE SYMBOLIC.

I AM NOT REALLY SURE WHAT NEW UNDERSTANDING PEOPLE HAVE ARRIVED AT I THINK THESE ARE THE KIND OF MOVES THAT CAN EASILY BE GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC TO SAY, 'HEY WE UNDERSTAND WE GET IT' BUT I CAN TELL YOU NO ONE GAINED WEALTH BECAUSE THE STATUE CAME DOWN.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY I DON'T THINK THEY SHOULD BE TAKEN DOWN OR SHOULD NOT BE -- BUILDING SHOULDN'T BE RENAMED, BUT I DO THINK IN THE LARGER CONVERSATION, THESE ARE VERY VERY MINOR NIBBLES AROUND THE EDGES THAT ARE GIVEN TO THE PUBLIC AND HELD UP AS A TRIUMPH AND THEY REALLY AREN'T A SUBSTANTIAL.

>> AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DIVERSITY EQUITY AND INCLUSION AND THIS BEING LIKE A STEP TOWARD INCLUSION DOCTOR WILLIAMS, YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF SUBSTANTIVE REAL CHANGE DO WE WANT TO SEE?

>> WELL SUBSTANTIVE REAL CHANGE MEANS CHANGE THE NAME OF THE BUILDING AND THEN ENABLE MORE SCHOLARSHIPS, IT MEANS MAKE MORE INVESTMENTS INTO THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY.

IT MEANS GET INTO THAT COMMUNITY AND START DOING THE WORK THAT'S WHAT EQUITY AND INCLUSION MEANS IT MEANS EVEN LOOK AT YOUR INTERNAL HIRING PRACTICES AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE RETAINING EMPLOYEES AND PROMOTING EMPLOYEES.

IT SHOULDN'T JUST BE ONE BUILDING THERE SHOULD BE SEVERAL BUILDINGS.

THINK ABOUT YOUR CURRICULUM.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT YOU KNOW INCLUSIVE EDUCATION INCLUSIVE SPACES FOR ALL OF US IN A VERY DIFFERENT WAY AND IT MEANS WE HAVE TO DO MORE THAN JUST CHANGE THE NAME, IT'S A SURFACE LEVEL THING.

IF WE'RE GOING TO WE'RE GOING TO REALLY TAKE THESE STEPS THEN WE SHOULD BE INVESTING MONEY, WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT CURRICULA, WE SHOULD BE DIGGING DEEPER INTO THE CONVERSATION IN AMPLIFYING THOSE VOICES THAT HAVE HISTORICALLY NOT BEEN AMPLIFIED NOT JUST BY NAMING THEM ON BUILDINGS BUT ALLOWING THEM A VOICE IN CHANGING POLICY.

>> WELL DOCTOR MCCOY, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS SYMBOLIC SUBSTANTIVE CHANGE?

>> LOOK I DON'T KNOW THAT I CAN SAY ANYTHING BETTER THAN WHAT DOCTOR WILLIAMS JUST SAID, BUT I REALLY AGREE.

I THINK THERE CERTAINLY IT'S A STEP RIGHT, I MEAN THE IDEA OF CHANGING THE NAME, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT ABOUT ACTUALLY EDUCATING FOLKS ABOUT WHO THAT PERSON WAS RIGHT?

WHY DO THEY DESERVE TO HAVE THEIR NAME ON A BUILDING, BECAUSE I THINK THAT NEED TO BE PART OF IT AS WELL, BUT IN ADDITION THAT EVERYTHING THAT DR WILLIAMS SAID I THINK WE'VE GOT IT GET TO THE ROOT OF THE ISSUE AROUND WEALTH CREATION AND OPPORTUNITY SO I THINK IT'S A STEP BUT IT'S NOT YOU KNOW IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

>> AND I THINK THAT YOU MAKE A POINT ABOUT EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT WHO THIS WOMAN WAS AND THAT GOES BACK TO WHAT GETS TAUGHT IN OUR YOU KNOW K 12 SCHOOLS.

PATRICK, I ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION I WOULD IMAGINE YOU MIGHT HAVE THE SAME THING TO SAY ABOUT RENAMING BUILDINGS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF INCLUSION IN WHAT WE TEACH IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> YEAH, IT'S A GOOD POINT DEBORAH, I THINK IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHICH BUILDINGS WE ARE RENAMING IT WHAT INSTITUTIONS.

AS AN HBCU DOUBLE GRAD FROM MOREHOUSE COLLEGE AND LAW SCHOOL AT NORTH CAROLINA CENTRAL UNIVERSITY, I'M REAL PROUD TO SEE LEADERS THAT IMPACTED OUR STRUGGLE ON THE SIDE OF THE NAMES OF BUILDINGS, I THINK THE PREMISE OF THE QUESTION IS WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE ISSUES RELATED TO INTERSECTIONALITY WITH LARGE LAND-GRANT INSTITUTIONS AND THE CONNECTION TO SLAVERY, AND THE CONNECTION THAT SOME OF THE PRIVATE SECTOR HAS IDENTIFIED AND ACKNOWLEDGED, I THINK THE QUESTION REALLY BECOMES WHAT IS THE OBJECTIVE MAKING THE CHANGE?

IF YOU'RE MAKING THE CHANGE JUST TO MAKE THE CHANGE WITHOUT CREATING SUBSTANTIVE INVESTMENT INTO CAUSING THOSE SYSTEMIC DIVIDES IS REALLY NOT GOING TO BE IMPACTFUL SO I THINK YOU HAVE A WHOLE LARGE INSTITUTIONS ACCOUNTABLE, IN PARTICULAR UNIVERSITIES THAT HAVE THESE WONDERFUL TENURE PROGRAMS THAT DR McCOY TALKED ABOUT ESPECIALLY IN LARGE LAND GRANT INSTITUTIONS.

RENAMING A BUILDING, I THINK IT'S A GOOD THING.

BUT I THINK THE NEXT CHAPTER NEEDS TO BE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO AFTER THAT?

I'LL SAY THIS QUOTE THAT ALWAYS GIVES ME A LOT OF PERSPECTIVE DEBORAH.

A DOCTOR USED TO ALWAYS SAY IS "AT THE END OF THE DAY, "PEOPLE WON'T REMEMBER WHAT YOU SAID, OR WHAT YOU DID, THEY WILL REMEMBER HOW YOU MADE THEM FEEL."

SO THE QUESTION REALLY BECOMES WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HOLDING UNIVERSITIES ACCOUNTABLE AND LARGE INSTITUTIONS FOR MAKING THESE CHANGES, HOW DOES THAT MAKE US FEEL AS A COMMUNITY, BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE REALLY CAN THINK ABOUT AND HOPEFULLY COME UP WITH SOME CHANGE TO HOLD THESE INSTITUTIONS ACCOUNTABLE >> IT'S A VERY POIGNANT.

I THOUGHT BECAUSE THE CHANGES THAT WE MAKE DO HAVE TO YOU KNOW HAVE AN IMPACT ON OUR EMOTIONS AND I THINK ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR US TO TO LOSE THIS INFORMATION IN A CERTAIN WAY.

IF THE NAME IS BEING REMOVED, WE REMOVING THAT HISTORY IS WELL HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT WE MAINTAIN THE STORY REMAIN MAINTAIN THE HISTORY.

SO THAT WE DON'T FORGET AND THE REASON WE DON'T WANT TO FORGET IS BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO REPEAT IT.

DOCTOR SHANTE WILLIAMS DOCTOR HENRY MCCOY PATRICK HANNAH THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

I WANT TO THANK TODAY'S GUESTS.

WE INVITE YOU TO ENGAGE WITH US ON TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM USING THE HASHTAG #BLACKISSUESFORUM.

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