>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, PROSECUTING POLICE SHOOTINGS, WE LAY OUT THE NATION LEADING STATISTICS AND ASK WHY SO FEW OFFICERS HAVE FACED CHARGES AS THE STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL ANNOUNCES JUST THE SECOND CRIMINAL CASE IN MODERN HISTORY.

>> Torrez: THERE WILL BE A STRONG AND UNDERSTANDABLE SENSE OF ANGER ON THE PART OF COMMUNITY MEMBERS, WHO ARE RIGHTFULLY CONCERNED.

>> AND LEARNING FROM THE GILA.

SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS AND OUR LAND CREW EXPLORE THE LESSONS OUR STATE'S LAST WILD RIVER HAS TO OFFER.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

HIGH IN THE COLORADO RIVER WATERSHED, THE GILA RIVER IN SOUTHWESTERN NEW MEXICO MEANS SO MANY DIFFERENT THINGS TO SO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

IN A SPECIAL SEGMENT AT THE END OF TODAY'S SHOW, THANKS IN PART TO FUNDING FROM THE WATER DESK, A JOURNALISM INITIATIVE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO, BOLDER, OUR LAND'S LAURA PASKUS ASKS US TO CONSIDER WHAT LESSONS THE RIVER HOLDS FOR THE FUTURE AND THE REST OF THE COLORADO RIVER BASIN.

THEN, LATER IN THE SHOW, WE SPEAK WITH TWO JOURNALISTS THAT AT DAILY LOBO STUDENT NEWSPAPER WHO BROKE A STORY THAT EXPOSED THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO'S FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH FEDERAL CRIME TRANSPARENCY LAW.

IN ABOUT 30 MINUTES WE ASK THOSE REPORTERS TO WALK US THROUGH THEIR INVESTIGATION OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE CAMPUS SECURITY ALERT SYSTEM.

BUT WE BEGIN TONIGHT WITH AN IN-DEPTH CONVERSATION ABOUT POLICE SHOOTINGS IN NEW MEXICO.

OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, AN ANALYSIS BY SEARCHLIGHT NEW MEXICO IDENTIFIED 357 PEOPLE SHOT BY POLICE STATE-WIDE, MORE THAN ANY OTHER U.S. STATE PER CAPITA DURING THAT TIME PERIOD.

211 OF THOSE PEOPLE DIED BUT JUST TWO OF THE COPS WHO PULLED THE TRIGGER WERE CRIMINALLY CHARGED.

THE ALBUQUERQUE OFFICERS WHO GUNNED DOWN JAMES BOYD, A HOMELESS MAN WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA IN 2014.

BUT FOR JUST SECOND THE TIME IN MODERN STATE HISTORY, WE COULD SEE AN OFFICER'S FREEDOM ON THE LINE IN A COURTROOM FOR AN ON-DUTY SHOOTING.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RAUL TORREZ SAYS HE'LL CHARGE LAS CRUCES POLICE OFFICE BRAD LUNSFORD WITH VOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER FOR AN INCIDENT LAST AUGUST IN WHICH HE SHOT AND KILLED PRESLEY EZE, AN UNARMED BLACK MAN ACCUSED OF STEALING A CAN OF BEER FROM A GAS STATION.

TORREZ HAS LAID OUT HIS CASE AGAINST LUNSFORD IN AN ARREST WARRANT AFFIDAVIT BUT STILL DECIDING WHETHER TO LET A JUDGE OR GRAND JURY DECIDE IF THERE SHOULD BE A TRIAL.

THAT MEANS THERE IS NO FORMAL CHARGE YET, THOUGH TORREZ SAYS HE IS COMMITTED TO MOVING FORWARD.

THAT BRINGS US TO OUR SPECIAL PANEL FOR THE WEEK FOCUSED ON WHY POLICE SHOOT SO MANY PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO AND WHY WE SO RARELY SEE CRIMINAL CHARGES AS A RESULT.

HERE IS EXECUTIVE PRODUCE YOUR JEFF PROCTOR.

>> Jeff: THANK YOU LOU.

JOINING ME TODAY ARE JOURNALIST JOSHUA BOWLING FROM SEARCHLIGHT NEW MEXICO, LEON HOWARD A LONG-TIME CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY AND DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF NEW MEXICO AND RETIRED METRO COURT JUDGE, SHARON WALTON.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

SO, WE JUST HEARD LOU LAY OUT SOME OF THE GRIM POLICE SHOOTING STATISTICS HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

AND ALBUQUERQUE IN PARTICULAR, OFFICERS SHOT MORE PEOPLE LAST YEAR THAN IN ANY OTHER AMERICAN CITY, BESIDES NEW YORK, LOS ANGELES AND HOUSTON.

AND THOSE ARE RAW NUMBERS NOT RATES.

BUT, THIS IS A STATE-WIDE ISSUE IN NEW MEXICO AND I WOULD LIKE TO BEGUN THERE.

LEON, WHY DO THE COPS SHOOT SO MANY PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO?

>> MR. HOWARD: THERE IS TWO WAYS I WOULD THINK ABOUT THAT QUESTION.

ONE IS THAT THE BIG SOCIETAL ISSUES THAT PLAGUE OUR BEAUTIFUL COMMUNITY AND THOSE ISSUES CENTER AROUND HOMELESSNESS, DRUG USE AND JUST MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES.

SO, THOSE ARE BIG SOCIETAL ISSUES THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THIS PROBLEM.

BUT, WHEN YOU FOCUS ON THE OTHER SIDE, THERE IS A CULTURE ISSUE IN POLICING.

THE DOJ HAS BEEN HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE FOR 10 YEARS AND WE ONLY SEE STATISTICS STAYING THE SAME OR SPIKING IN TERMS OF POLICE ENCOUNTERS WITH CITIZENS ENDING FATALLY.

AND, SO, TO DRILL DOWN ON A TECHNICAL ASPECT OF WHY WE HAVE THAT CULTURE HERE IN NEW MEXICO OF SHOOT FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS LATER, I HAVE TO LOOK AT OUR JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE STATUTE.

IT IS EXTREMELY DEFERENTIAL TO POLICE.

IN MY WORK I REVIEWED A LOT OF VIDEOS WHERE YOU SEE POLICE SCREAMING "STOP RESISTING, "STOP RESISTING" AND EVEN IF THEY ARE DEALING WITH A DOCILE CITIZEN.

AND I HAVE TO THINK THAT GOES EITHER TO DIRECT TRAINING OR JUST OFFICERS LEARNING THE LAW IN NEW MEXICO.

IF YOU READ THE JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE STATUTE, IT ALLOWS FOR DEADLY FORCE IN SITUATIONS WHERE YOU'RE EXECUTING AN ARREST AND A CITIZEN IS RESISTING.

SO AT OUR ORGANIZATION, WHAT WE ARE WORKING REALLY HARD ON IS TO CREATE A UNIFORM USE OF FORCE STANDARD ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHERE -- I MEAN I AM SORRY, ACROSS THE STATE WHERE EVERY POLICE DEPARTMENT, WHETHER IT IS THE STATE POLICE, A SMALL MUNICIPALITY OR A COUNTY, ARE ALL OPERATING UNDER THE SAME STANDARD.

SO, YOU'RE NOT IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE IS CONFUSION FOR THE POLICE OR THE CITIZENS ABOUT WHERE THE LINES ARE.

RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURES THAT ARE DIFFERENT IN EVERY DEPARTMENT.

THERE IS THE TENTH CIRCUIT LAW, U.S. SUPREME COURT LAW AND STATE LAW AND SO THERE IS THIS HODGE-PODGE OF LAWS THAT MAKE IT CONFUSING FOR OFFICERS TO KNOW WHERE THE LINES ARE AND THAT COULD BE BY DESIGN.

IN A WAY IT PROTECTS THE POLICE.

SO, IN TERMS OF THIS CULTURE ISSUE, WHEN OFFICERS KNOW, AND YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS THAT THERE HAS JUST BEEN THREE OFFICERS WHO HAVE BEEN PROSECUTED OVER HOW LONG?

THAT TENDS TO GO TO THE CULTURE AND SO MARRYING A UNIFORM USE OF FORCE STANDARD TO OUR JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE STATUTE THAT INDICATES THAT IF YOU'RE OUTSIDE OF THIS UNIFORM USE OF FORCE STANDARD, THEN YOU CAN BE PROSECUTED FOR CROSSING THE LINE.

RIGHT NOW, SOCIETY IS VERY FRUSTRATED TO SEE THESE INCIDENTS AND SEE AG'S AND DA'S COME TO DECISIONS NOT TO PROSECUTE.

AND PLAYING FROM AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE STATUTE, I CAN'T BLAME THEM A LOT OF TIMES FOR NOT CHARGING.

>> Jeff: JUDGE WALTON WE JUST HEARD TO SORT OF DRILL DOWN ON POLICY AND LEGAL FRAMEWORKS.

ARE THERE FAILURES AT OTHER LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT THAT ARE DRIVING THESE NUMBERS?

WHAT, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, SORT OF PUSHES THIS FIGURE SO HIGH HERE IN NEW MEXICO?

>> MS. WALTON: I DON'T KNOW THAT YOU CAN SINGLE OUT ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS BEEN WORKING WITH THE ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, BEST PRACTICES AND REVIEWING ALL OF THEIR POLICIES AND REVIEWING THEIR TRAINING AND AT LEAST ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS CHANGED A LOT OF THEIR APPROACHES.

THEY HAVE REWRITTEN POLICIES.

THEY HAVE CHANGED TRAINING AND THE USE OF FORCE TRAINING FOR THE STATE ALSO VERY MUCH SHIFTED TOWARDS DEESCALATION AND I THINK WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT EVEN THE SUPREME COURT LAW WITH RESPECT TO WHEN POLICE OFFICERS CAN SHOOT HAS CHANGED PRETTY RAPIDLY, YOU KNOW, FROM YOU COULD SHOOT ANY FLEEING FELON, PERIOD, TO REALLY BEING IN A MUCH DIFFERENT PLACE NOW AS SOCIETY CHANGES AND WE HAVE CHANGED OUR EXPECTATION OF POLICE OFFICERS.

THEIR ROLE AND WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO IN OUR COMMUNITIES HAS CHANGED SO MUCH SO QUICKLY AND WE PLACE SO MANY DEMANDS ON THEM AND WE HAVE TO TRIED TO CREATE NEW UNITS AND NEW APPROACHES AS WE SEE THE DEFICIENCIES.

I REMEMBER WHEN I FIRST WORKED FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AS A YOUNG LAWYER, THERE WERE A LOT OF SHOOTINGS OF PEOPLE EXPERIENCING MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS AND THE WHOLE CIT APPROACH CAME INTO PLAY AND IT TAKES YEARS FOR THOSE THINGS TO REALLY GET INCORPORATED, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THAT IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE RECOGNIZE.

THERE IS OFFICERS WITH THAT TRAINING AND NOW, TODAY, IT SEEMS LIKE MOST OFFICERS HAVE THAT TRAINING INSTEAD OF JUST A COUPLE, THAT EVERY POLICE OFFICER GOING THROUGH AN ACADEMY GETS SOME.

SO THEY RECOGNIZE THOSE ISSUES.

I THINK THE DEPARTMENTS HAVE TRIED TO BE RESPONSIVE AND THE GOVERNMENT CARES.

I AGREE THAT THERE IS A POLICE CULTURE.

I DON'T AGREE THAT THERE IS A SHOOT FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

BUT THERE IS A TRAINING AND IT IS A DANGEROUS JOB AND IT IS THAT IDEA OF YOU NEED TO PROTECT YOURSELF.

IF YOU LET DOWN YOUR GUARD AND THERE ARE A LOT OF STORIES OF WHEN POLICE OFFICERS LET DOWN THEIR GUARD AND SOMETHING TRAGIC HAPPENS TO THEM, AND IT IS EXPECTING THAT BALANCE AND THAT MOMENTARY DECISION SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE RECRUITING OF THE BEST PEOPLE.

AND THE MORE POLICING IS VILIFIED AND BECOMES MORE AND MORE PROBLEMATIC AND CHANGES, THE HARDER IT IS TO ATTRACT PEOPLE TO THE JOB.

SO IT IS ALMOST A VICIOUS CYCLE WHERE WE DON'T HAVE A BIG POOL OF PEOPLE INTERESTED IN DOING THE JOB AND WE ARE MORE AND MORE CRITICAL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME WE ARE DEMANDING MORE AND MORE OF THEM.

SO IT IS SO COMPLICATED TO TRY TO FIX AND TO SAY IT IS JUST THIS PROBLEM.

I THINK SO MANY AGENCIES HAVE TRUED TO WRITE THE MAGIC POLICIES AND LEGISLATURES HAVE TRIED TO WRITE THE LAW.

WE ARE A VIOLENT SOCIETY FOR SOME REASON.

THAT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN WRITE A LAW ABOUT OR A POLICY ABOUT.

WHEN SITUATIONS ARE SO VIOLENT AND OUR CITY OR OUR STATE OR OUR COUNTRY IS SO VIOLENT, WE HAVE GOT TO FIGURE OUT WHY.

WHAT ARE WE DOING?

WE TALK A LOT ABOUT GUN VIOLENCE BUT MAYBE WE NEED TO TAKE A STEP BACK FROM THAT AND TALK ABOUT VIOLENCE.

WHY HAVE WE EMBRACED BEING SO VIOLENT AND AGGRESSIVE.

IF A POLICE OFFICER IS RESPONDING TO A SITUATION, IT TAKES A SPECIAL SKILL TO DE-ESCALATE AND NOT EVERYBODY HAS IT EVERYDAY.

AND WE SEND THEM INTO THESE SITUATIONS, I OFTEN THINK ABOUT THAT HORRIBLE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CALL THAT ENDED UP THERE WAS A DISMEMBERED CHILD SET ON FIRE.

HOW CAN YOU EXPECT A POLICE OFFICER TO RESPOND TO SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND TO BE OKAY.

THE THINGS THAT THEY SEE AND THINGS THEY ARE SUBJECT TO, IT CAUSES THAT US AND THEM AND THE EUPHEMISMS OF RESPONDING TO AND NEUTRALIZING A THREAT INSTEAD OF -- >> Jeff: RESPONDING IN A MORE HUMAN FASHION?

THE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH SERVICE SAYS FOR POLICE OFFICERS WOULD BE ONE WAY TO SORT OF THINK ABOUT THAT.

I WANT TO MOVE ON A LITTLE BIT.

I AM SORRY TO CUT YOU SHORT.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS AFTER A POLICE OFFICER SHOOTS SOMEBODY.

OBVIOUSLY WHAT IMMEDIATELY TAKES PLACE IS A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT INVESTIGATIONS.

JOSHUA, I AM GOING TO ASK YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION.

ON ONE SIDE YOU HAVE AN INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATOR WHO IS LOOKING FOR POLICY VIOLATIONS.

THE STAKES THERE ARE OBVIOUSLY THAT THE OFFICER COULD LOSE HIS JOB, BE SUSPENDED.

SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, YOU HAVE A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

THE STAKES THERE ARE MUCH HIGHER.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT POTENTIAL OF THE OFFICER'S FREEDOM.

WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED THROUGH THE COURSE OF YOUR REPORTING, IN PARTICULAR, ABOUT THE WAY THAT CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION TAKES PLACE.

WHO DOES IT?

HOW DOES IT HAPPEN?

>> MR.

BOWLING: RIGHT, ACROSS THE STATE, BROADLY, STATE POLICE HANDLES THAT.

WHEN WE ARE HERE IN BERNALILLO COUNTY OR DOWN IN DONA ANA COUNTY, WE HAVE WHAT IS CALLED A MULTI-AGENCY TASKFORCE AND CRITICS SAY THAT IS REALLY A MISNOMER BECAUSE WE HAVE A COALITION OF IF APD, FOR EXAMPLE, FATALLY SHOOTS SOMEONE, YOU HAVE THE MULTI-AGENCY TASKFORCE CONVENE AND IT IS MADE UP OF SEVERAL DIFFERENT LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES IN THE AREA INCLUDING BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE.

THE BIG ASTERISK THAT IS IN BOLD AND ITALICIZED NEXT TO THAT IS THAT THE AGENCY WHO COMMITTED THE SHOOTING GETS TO LEAD THE INVESTIGATION.

SO, CRITICS SAY THAT IS REALLY THE FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE, AND IN WHAT WORLD DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

YOU SHOOT SOMEONE AND THEN YOU GET TO LEAD THE INVESTIGATION.

ADDING ON TO THAT SOMETHING THAT I HAVE TRIED TO REALLY EMPHASIZE IN MY REPORTING IS THE FACT THAT WHEN THIS IS REFERRED TO A DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE OR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE FOR POTENTIAL PROSECUTION, THEY DO NOT DO AN ORIGINAL INVESTIGATION.

THEY DO NOT GO INTERVIEW PEOPLE.

THEY DO NOT SUBPOENA PEOPLE.

THEY REVIEW THE DOCUMENTS AND BODY CAM THAT THE MULTI-AGENCY TASKFORCE OR THE STATE POLICE, IF YOU'RE OUTSIDE THE METRO AREA, HAS COMPILED.

CAN WE TRUST THAT INFORMATION?

CAN WE TRUST THE QUALITY OF THAT INVESTIGATION IF IT IS POLICE WHO PUT IT TOGETHER THEMSELVES?

>> Jeff: IT SORT OF CREATES THE POTENTIAL FOR GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT.

IF YOU GET THE BAD INVESTIGATION AND YOU'RE A PROSECUTOR, YOU'RE LEFT WITH A DIFFICULT DECISION BASED ON KIND OF AN INCOMPLETE CASE FILE.

>> MR.

BOWLING: AND THESE ARE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT CASES TO PROSECUTE.

WE HAVE THE SHOOTING OF JAMES BOYD.

IT IS FASCINATING AG TORREZ WITH THE LAS CRUCES CASE IS NOT GOING FOR A MURDER CHARGE, GOING FOR VOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER, GOING FOR WHAT APPEARS TO BE A SLIGHTLY, VERY SLIGHTLY, LOWER BAR HERE, THAN A MURDER CHARGE.

ONE THING THAT I WANT TO PUSH BACK ON, TOO, THAT I HAVE HEARD A LOT FROM THESE POLICE DEPARTMENTS AS I HAVE REPORTED THIS OUT, THIS YEAR ESPECIALLY, I HAVE REALLY AGONIZED OVER WE MADE A HUGE MULTIMILLION DOLLAR COMMITMENT TO MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES IN ALBUQUERQUE AND ACROSS THE STATE.

WE HAVE CIVILIAN FIRST RESPONDERS WHO WILL GO TO A CITE OF A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS.

WHY ARE POLICE SHOOTINGS STILL ON THE RISE?

I HAVE HAD THIS CONVERSATION WITH APD, I HAVE HAD THIS CONVERSATION WITH DISTRICT ATTORNEY BREGMAN AND THE ANSWER I ALWAYS GET FROM THEM IS IT IS SIMPLE, JOSHUA, HOMICIDES ARE ON THE RISE.

WELL, THAT KIND OF IMPLIES THAT POLICE ARE COMING UP TO THE SCENE OF A HOMICIDE AND PROGRESS SEEING THE BAD GUY TRY TO KILL SOMEBODY AND DISCHARGING THEIR WEAPON ON THE SCENE.

SO, I HAVE POURED THROUGH APD DOCUMENTS.

I'LL TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES THAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR.

IT HAPPENED ONCE.

>> Jeff: IN 19 SHOOTINGS.

>> MR.

BOWLING: YES, AND THE OFFICER MISSED THE MAN HE WAS SHOOTING AT, SO WE CAN'T ATTRIBUTE ONE OF OUR FATAL SHOOTINGS TO THAT STATISTIC.

>> MS. WALTON: I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHAT HE MEANS, AND I DON'T WANT TO PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH, BUT I THINK IT IS THAT IDEA OF PEOPLE REACTING VIOLENTLY AND AGGRESSIVELY AND THE LACK OF TRUST AND FAITH IN POLICE DEPARTMENTS BECAUSE HEARING YOUR CONCERN IS THAT SOMEHOW, AND, YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND WHY, WE HAVE LOST FAITH IN OUR INSTITUTIONS THAT WE USED TO TRUST AND WE USED TO BELIEVE.

IF WE BELIEVED THAT THE POLICE OFFICERS WERE ACTING WITH INTEGRITY AND INVESTIGATING THINGS, THEN YOU WOULD TRUST THAT INVESTIGATION BUT WE ARE STARTING FROM THE PREMISE OF IF YOU'RE INVESTIGATING YOURSELF, YOU'RE AUTOMATICALLY SUSPICIONS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSE THERE IS THE IDEA OF PROTECTING EACH OTHER AND THE THIN BLUE LINE, THINGS WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT, BUT WE DON'T HAVE THAT SAME TRUST AND RESPECT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT THINGS ARE GOING TO GO WELL, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN TOO OFTEN THAT THINGS DON'T GO WELL.

>> Jeff: LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING ABOUT THINGS THAT HAVE CHANGED AND I'LL ASK YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS LAST QUESTION FOR THIS SEGMENT.

HOW HAS BODY CAMERA AND CITIZEN VIDEO CHANGED THE PERCEPTION OF THIS?

THE EZE SHOOTING BEING A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT.

TWO BODY CAM VIEWS, A CITIZEN'S RECORDING OF THAT, HOW HAS THAT CHANGED THINGS, IN PARTICULAR, IN A CASE LIKE THAT, WHERE IT IS AN UNARMED BLACK MAN BEING SHOT?

>> MR. HOWARD: THERE IS A LOT TO UNPACK THERE.

HAVING VIDEOS AVAILABLE, OF COURSE, IN A LOT OF INSTANCES IS THE BEST POSSIBLE EVIDENCE YOU CAN HAVE AND IT MAKES IT MORE REAL TO CITIZENS VIEWING THAT TO MAKE THE THRESHOLD DECISIONS TO SAY THAT IS NOT OKAY.

WE ALL GROW UP AND WANT TO FEEL SAFE AND SO WHEN THERE IS NO VIDEO EVIDENCE AND YOU HAVE THE OFFICERS WORD VERSUS, YOU KNOW, CIVILIAN WITNESSES, WE WANT TO BELIEVE THE POLICE.

SO, A LOT OF THOSE BARRIERS HAVE BEEN BROKEN DOWN AND WE SEE HOW THESE SITUATIONS CAN ESCALATE.

IT IS HELPFUL TO HAVE THAT, NOW, I WOULD BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T MENTION APD'S INVESTIGATIONS AND THE LACK OF TRUST THAT HAS COME FROM THAT BECAUSE THERE IS A CASE HERE IN A POLICE SHOOTING WHERE SOME OF THE VIDEO FOOTAGE WAS FOUND TO BE MISSING, MANIPULATED, A LOT OF TIMES THROUGH PUBLIC RECORDS THINGS GET LOST.

AND YOU HAVE TO SUE THE DEPARTMENT, LIKE, PULLING TEETH TO GET THAT TYPE OF EVIDENCE.

SO, ALL OF THAT ERODES TRUST.

WHEN YOU MENTION THE IMPACT OF SEEING THE VIDEOS AND THE IMPACT THAT HAS ON COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, IT CAN'T BE UNDERESTIMATED.

WHEN YOU'RE A KID GROWING UP ON OUR SOCIETY AND YOU KEEP SEEING UNARMED BLACK PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY BEING SHOT AND KILLED BY THE POLICE, THAT TAKES AN EMOTIONAL -- IT PUTS EMOTIONAL WEIGHT ON OUR COMMUNITIES AND IT DOES ERODE THE TRUST.

IT GIVES YOU A LACK OF FAITH IN THE SYSTEM AND IT IS INCREDIBLY HEART BREAKING FOR PARENTS TO HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS WITH THEIR CHILDREN.

BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IT IS NOT THAT WE DON'T WANT POLICE.

WE WANT LAW ENFORCEMENT THAT WORKS FOR US, THE SAME AS IT WORKS ACROSS THE BOARD FOR OTHER COMMUNITIES.

>> Jeff: WE COULD SPEND THE REST OF THE DAY TALKING ABOUT THIS ONE, BUT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE THIS SEGMENT HERE.

I APPRECIATE EVERYONE'S THOUGHTS.

WE ARE FAR FROM DONE WITH THIS TOPIC THOUGH.

WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A SHORT BREAK TO LOOK AHEAD IN OUR SHOW BEFORE WE SHIFT THE CONVERSATION TOWARDS THE REST OF THE JUSTICE SYSTEM'S ROLE IN POLICE SHOOTINGS.

THANK YOU ALL.

>> THE CLERY ACT STATES THAT UNIVERSITIES SHOULD HAVE A DAILY CRIME LOG THAT IS EASILY ACCESSIBLE, EASY TO READ AND ACCESSIBLE DURING NORMAL BUSINESS HOURS THAT ANY STUDENT CAN LOOK AT, AND IT SHOULD INCLUDE THE NATURE OF THE CRIME, THE LOCATION, THE TIME, THE DATE AND THE DISPOSITION, IF IT IS KNOWN WHETHER THE CASE IS SOLVED OR NOT.

WHEN WE OPEN THE DAILY CRIME LOG, IT DIDN'T HAVE ALL OF THAT.

>> Jeff: MY CONVERSATION WITH TWO DAILY LOBO JOURNALISTS ABOUT UNM'S VIOLATIONS OF THE CLERY ACT IS COMING UP IN A LITTLE OVER 15 MINUTES.

BUT RIGHT NOW, LET'S GET BACK TO POLICE SHOOTINGS AND FOCUS IN ON PROSECUTOR'S ROLE.

THERE HAS BEEN AN ENDLESS PARADE OF ALTERNATIVE SYSTEMS.

WHAT HAS REMAINED THE SAME IS THAT THE PROCESS IS DIFFERENT FROM JURISDICTION TO JURISDICTION AROUND THE STATE.

THEY HAVE ALL PRODUCED THE SAME RESULTS, ALMOST NO PROSECUTIONS IN POLICE SHOOTING CASES.

ALL OF THIS OBVIOUSLY IS SORT OF AN EFFORT TO DO AWAY WITH THE PERCEIVED CONFLICT OF INTEREST THAT LOCAL DA'S HAVE IN TERMS OF TRYING TO DECIDE WHETHER TO CHARGE A POLICE OFFICER IN A SHOOTING.

JUDGE WALTON, LET'S START WITH YOU.

IS THAT A REAL OR PERCEIVED CONFLICT OF INTEREST, A DA BEING ASKED TO MAKE A CHARGING DECISION REGARDING A DEPARTMENT THEY RELY ON EVERYDAY TO MAKE THEIR CASES IN COURT?

IS THAT A REAL CONFLICT OR SOMETHING WE ALL THINK IS A CONFLICT?

>> MS. WALTON: YOU THINK WHO ARE THE WITNESSES IN THEIR CASES?

IT IS THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

WHEN YOU DAMAGE YOUR CREDIBILITY OR RELATIONSHIP WITH THAT DEPARTMENT, YOU DAMAGE YOUR ABILITY TO WORK ON CASES GOING FORWARD, SO IT IS OBVIOUSLY A REAL CONFLICT THAT EXISTS.

IT IS HOW YOU HANDLE IT.

AND THERE ARE WAYS TO SEGREGATE PORTIONS OF YOUR AGENCY, YOU KNOW, HAVE SPECIAL DA'S THAT HANDLE CERTAIN THINGS THAT DON'T REGULARLY USE THOSE SAME OFFICERS, BUT THEY DEVELOP RELATIONSHIPS.

THEY ARE CONSIDERED A TEAM.

NEW MEXICO HAS THE TEAM CONCEPT, THE PROSECUTOR AND THE POLICE OFFICER ARE A TEAM FOR PURPOSES OF CRIMINAL CASES.

SO IF YOU'RE ON THE SAME TEAM, IT IS NOT JUST A PERCEIVED CONFLICT, IT IS A CONFLICT THAT ACTUALLY EXISTS AND THAT THEY ARE MINDFUL OF.

>> Jeff: JOSHUA, I WANT TO ASK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT SORT OF PATCHWORK, THAT HODGE-PODGE.

YOU MENTIONED THAT A LITTLE BIT IN THE PREVIOUS SEGMENT REGARDING THE INVESTIGATIVE PART.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE REVIEW, THE DECISION THAT GETS MADE ON WHETHER A CHARGE SHOULD GO FORWARD, IT IS DONE DIFFERENTLY IN ALMOST EVERY DISTRICT AROUND THE STATE.

WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN IN YOUR REPORTING IN TERMS OF THE KIND OF CHALLENGES THAT PRESENTS FOR THE REST OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

>> MR.

BOWLING: ABSOLUTELY.

THERE ARE 14 DIFFERENT DISTRICT ATTORNEYS OFFICES IN THIS STATE.

VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ONE HAS A DIFFERENT PROCESS TO HANDLE THIS, WHICH MAKES COMPARING AND CONTRASTING, FRANKLY, A NIGHTMARE WHEN YOU'RE WORKING AT A POLICE SHOOTING THAT HAPPENS IN ALBUQUERQUE VERSUS LAS CRUCES VERSUS SANTA FE VERSUS CHAVES COUNTY.

ONE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IS OVER SANDOVAL COUNTY, THEY JUST DO NOT THE REVIEW POLICE SHOOTING CASES AT ALL.

BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT WOULD BE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST FOR THEIR OFFICE.

OTHERS, LIKE THE BERNALILLO COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, WILL HIRE SPECIAL PROSECUTORS WHO ARE NOT STAFFERS, PER SE, TO REVIEW THESE CASES, BUT IT IS ALSO A SMALL POOL OF ATTORNEYS WHO HANDLE THOSE SORTS OF THINGS AND THEY KNOW THE POLICE OFFICERS, THEY KNOW THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S, IN AND OUT, VERY WELL.

SO IT IS A COMPLETE CHECKERBOARD, DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU GO IN THE STATE, HOW THIS IS HANDLED.

>> Jeff: LEON, LAWMAKERS HAVE TRIED TO TACKLE THIS.

THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF PROPOSALS TO POTENTIALLY CONSOLIDATE A ONE-STOP SHOP THAT WOULD INVESTIGATE AND REVIEW THE POLICE SHOOTINGS TO POSSIBLE PROSECUTION.

DO THAT IN THE AG'S OFFICE, A PROPOSAL WE HAVE SEEN A BUNCH OF TIMES.

THAT HASN'T GONE ANYWHERE, KIND OF SIMILAR TO A LOT OF THE OTHER MEASURES WE HAVE SEEN IN SANTA FE DIRECTED AT OR RELATED TO THE ISSUE OF POLICE SHOOTINGS.

WHAT HAS IT BEEN LIKE IN THE ROUNDHOUSE OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST SEVERAL SESSIONS IN TERMS OF TRYING TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE?

>> MR. HOWARD: SO I THINK THAT CLEARLY ADVOCATES, LAWMAKERS, FOR A VERY LONG TIME HAVE BEEN PUSHING FOR UNIFORMITY AROUND THIS ISSUE.

YOU CAN REALLY GET INTO THE POLITICS OF IT ALL BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT WE JUST DESCRIBED IS DIFFERENT PROCESSES ALL AROUND THE STATE.

STREAMLINING THAT PROCESS IRRESPECTIVE OF WHERE IT IS HOUSED, HAVING AN INDEPENDENT AGENCY INVESTIGATING AND MAKING THESE DECISIONS IS GOING TO HELP INSTILL SOME OF THAT TRUST IN THE COMMUNITY THAT WE HAVE ALL TALKED ABOUT THAT HAS BEEN LOST.

THEN, AGAIN, A FURTHER EDUCATION ON HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS SO THE COMMUNITY UNDERSTANDS THAT AND TECHNICAL ASPECTS OF THE LAW AND KNOWLEDGE AROUND THE JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE STATUTE, BECAUSE ALL THE COMMUNITY HEARS IS A DECISION NOT TO PROSECUTE AND THERE IS JUST A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THE WHY.

WHEN PEOPLE KNOW THE WHY, YOU CAN START MAKING SOME CHANGES IN THE LAW.

>> Jeff: I AM GOING TO ASK IN A SECOND TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE SUCCESSES WHEN IT COMES TO POLICE VIOLENCE, LEGISLATIVELY IN THE LAST HANDFUL OF YEARS.

I DON'T WANT US TO SPEND A TON OF TIME ON THE HISTORY OF THE WAY POLICE SHOOTINGS GOT REVIEWED BUT THERE IS A LOT OF HISTORY.

I SPEND A LOT OF TIME WRITING ABOUT THIS.

THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN TRIED HERE.

IN TERMS OF THE FRAMEWORK, THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW, EDUCATION SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT IDEA WHERE PEOPLE WOULD UNDERSTAND BETTER.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE ANY OF THE SYSTEMS, WHETHER IT IS A HODGE-PODGE OR ONE IN PARTICULAR HAS TAKEN A STEP TOWARD TRANSPARENCY AND AT LEAST TRYING TO EDUCATE THE PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT ON HOW THESE DECISIONS GET MADE.

>> MR. HOWARD: NOT SPECIFICALLY IN THE REALM OF INVESTIGATING POLICE SHOOTINGS.

BUT THERE WERE SOME STRIDES THAT WERE MADE IN TERMS OF GETTING MORE UNIFORM STANDARDS IN OUR STATE AROUND HOW POLICE USE FORCE.

WE BANNED CHOKE HOLD WHICH IS A BIG STEP, OF COURSE, AFTER WHAT WE SAW WITH GEORGE FLOYD, WE BANNED SHOOTING IN A MOVING MOTOR VEHICLE AS A MECHANISM OF LAW ENFORCEMENT CAN USE, SO THERE ARE STRIDES BEING MADE IN THE REALM OF STANDARDIZING POLICE USE OF FORCE IN OUR STATE, BUT WE STILL HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO, PARTICULARLY AROUND CREATING UNIFORM REQUIREMENTS FOR DEESCALATION.

IT IS ONE THING TO HAVE A POLICY BUT WHERE WE SEE THE GAP IS ENFORCEMENT OF THOSE POLICIES AND MEANINGFUL MEASURES IN THE LAW TO HOLD POLICE ACCOUNTABLE WHO RUN AFOUL OF THOSE STANDARDS.

>> LET'S TAKE A HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO, AND JUDGE WALTON I'LL ASK YOU ABOUT THIS.

IN WHICH A PROSECUTOR, A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, A TEAM OF PROSECUTORS, WHATEVER THE MECHANISM HAPPENS TO BE, DECIDES THAT IT IS TIME TO GO FORWARD.

I SEE A CASE THAT I THINK NEEDS PROSECUTED.

REGARDLESS OF WHO IS DOING THE INVESTIGATING AND WHO IS DOING THE PROSECUTING, THERE REALLY SEEM TO BE TWO PATHS.

ONE IS TO PRESENT THE CASE TO A GRAND JURY.

THE OTHER IS TO PRESENT THE CASE IN A PRELIMINARY HEARING.

CAN YOU TELL VIEWERS WHAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE TWO PROCESSES' IS.

>> MS. WALTON: SURE.

A GRAND JURY PROCEEDING IS WHERE A GROUP OF CITIZENS ARE SELECTED AND SERVE AS GRAND JURORS FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

SOMETIMES THERE IS A SPECIAL GRAND JURY BUT USUALLY WE HAVE GRAND JURIES THAT SIT FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AND THEY HEAR ALL OF THE CASES THAT THAT DA WANTS TO PROSECUTE.

IN THAT SETTING, IT IS SECRET.

SO THE CITIZENS ARE MAKING THE DECISIONS BUT THE PROCEEDINGS AND THEIR DELIBERATIONS AND WHAT THEY ARE PRESENTED WITH REMAIN SECRET.

THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY REALLY RUNS THE SHOW.

THERE IS NOT A JUDGE.

THE DEFENDANT HAS THE RIGHT TO APPEAR BEFORE THEM AND CAN BRING AN ATTORNEY BUT THE ATTORNEY CAN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING DURING THE PROCEEDING AND THERE IS NO CROSS EXAMINATION OF WITNESSES.

SO BASICALLY THEY PRESENT THEIR INVESTIGATION, FOR EXAMPLE, AND THEN THE CITIZEN GRAND JURORS MAKE A DECISION WHETHER OR NOT TO PROSECUTE.

THAT WAS LONG FAVORED BECAUSE THEN YOU HAVE REGULAR FOLKS IN OR OUR COMMUNITIES MAKING THESE DECISIONS.

AND THEN IN THE RECENT YEARS THERE HAS BEEN A REAL CRITICISM ABOUT THAT PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF TRANSPARENCY AND THE BELIEF THAT CITIZENS JUST RELY TOO MUCH ON THE DA'S AND WHATEVER THE DA WANTS THEY GENERALLY GO ALONG WITH.

THEN THERE HAS BEEN THE SHIFT AND IN BERNALILLO COUNTY IT HAPPENED LAST FIVE OR SIX YEARS WHERE ALMOST EVERYTHING GOES TO PRELIMINARY HEARING.

IN PRELIMINARY HEARING NEW MEXICO HAS SOME PRETTY STRICT RULES FOR PRELIMINARY HEARINGS WITH RESPECT TO THE LEVEL OF PROOF AND TYPE OF EVIDENCE AND THE RULES OF EVIDENCE APPLY SO THE SAME KIND OF STANDARDS THAT WOULD APPLY AT TRIAL APPLY FOR A PRELIM WHICH MAKES THEM MORE DIFFICULT, BUT THE WITNESSES APPEAR AND A JUDGE MAKES THE DECISION BASED ON WHAT IS PRESENTED, WHETHER THERE IS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BIND THE PERSON OVER ON CHARGES.

PROBABLE CAUSE IS A REALLY LOW STANDARD.

PEOPLE THINK IT MEANS PROBABLY, MORE LIKELY THAN NOT.

IT DOES NOT.

IT IS A MUCH LOWER STANDARD THAN THAT.

AND IT IS, IS THERE A REASONABLE PROBABILITY TO REASONABLE BELIEVE THAT THE LAW HAS BEEN VIOLATED.

IT DOESN'T MEAN, IS THERE ANY OTHER EXPLANATION HERE.

IT IS JUST, IS THERE A REASONABLE PROBABILITY THIS IS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR AND THE CASE SHOULD BE BOUND OVER.

IN THOSE INSTANCES, THEY ARE OPEN PROCEEDINGS, THE WITNESSES COME IN, THEY ARE SWORN IN, BOTH SIDES GET TO QUESTION THEM.

AND THEIR TESTIMONY BECOMES PART OF THE RECORD OF THE CASE.

AND IT CAN BE USED IN ALL THE SUBSEQUENT PROCEEDINGS.

SO, THE DOWN SIDE TO THAT IS IF YOU'RE VERY EARLY IN A CASE YOUR STARTING TO GET LOCKED IN AND SOMEBODY MIGHT BE DOING MORE INVESTIGATING AND THEN THAT TESTIMONY CAN BE MANIPULATED.

AND SO IT MAKES IT HARDER SOMETIMES FOR PROSECUTORS TO DO TOO MUCH TO SOON BECAUSE IT CAN FOLLOW THE CASE AND THAT TESTIMONY THAT IS GIVEN IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE USED AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE SOME OF THE BEST ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING AND THEY ARE ABLE TO CREATIVELY USE THOSE PROCEEDINGS TO THEIR ADVANTAGE.

SO IT IS MORE TRANSPARENT, IT IS MORE FORMAL.

YOU HAVE A JUDGE MAKING THE DECISION, BUT IT HAPPENS SO EARLY IN THE PROCESS, THAT SOMETIMES IT IS DANGEROUS.

>> Jeff: THANK YOU FOR EXPLAINING THAT.

WE HAVE TRIED THAT AT THIS TABLE BEFORE AND IT DIDN'T GO NEARLY THAT WELL.

I WANT TO GO AROUND THE TABLE FOR MY LAST QUESTION TODAY.

SO, AG TORREZ HAS NOT SAID YET.

I WOULD LIKE TO CIRCLE BACK TO THE ISSUES FROM LAS CRUCES, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS NOT SAID YET WHETHER HE PLANS TO GO PRELIMINARY HEARING OR PRESENT THE CASE TO A GRAND JURY.

BUT EITHER WAY, THERE ARE GOING TO BE A LOT OF EYES ON THIS CASE.

NEW MEXICO HAS LED THE NATION FOR POLICE SHOOTINGS FOR A LOT OF YEARS, WE HAVE SPENT A BUNCH OF TIME AT THE TABLE TALKING ABOUT THAT ALREADY.

JOSH, LET'S START WITH YOU.

WHAT ARE THE STAKES IN TERMS OF PUBLIC PERCEPTION AROUND POLICE VIOLENCE FOR THIS CASE.

>> MR.

BOWLING: IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO OVERSTATE WHAT A WATERSHED MOMENT THIS COULD BE.

MY REPORTING IN SEPTEMBER POINTED TO TWO PROSECUTIONS IN THE LAST DECADE FOR POLICE SHOOTINGS ACROSS THE STATE.

WE HAD MORE THAN 350 POLICE SHOOTINGS IN THAT TIME, 200 OF WHICH, AT LEAST, WERE FATAL.

THAT IS LIKELY AN UNDER COUNT.

THIS IS A BIG ISSUE IN NEW MEXICO.

WE TALK OFTEN ABOUT THE WAY THAT WE PER CAPITA LEAD THE NATION IN POLICE SHOOTINGS BUT LIKE YOU SAID EARLIER, UP HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE, ONLY LOS ANGELES, NEW YORK AND HOUSTON SHOT MORE PEOPLE LAST YEAR.

THOSE ARE ALL CITIES THAT DWARF ALBUQUERQUE IN SIZE AND THIS IS BECOMING A GROWING ISSUE ACROSS THE STATE AND SANTA FE, LAS CRUCES AND RIO RANCHO, WE ARE SEEING SIMILAR TRENDS PLAY OUT ON A SMALLER LEVEL FOR NOW.

IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO OVERSTATE HOW FAR THIS COULD GO DEPENDING ON THE RESULT OF THE TRIAL ON HOW LIKELY THIS SORT OF THING IS TO HAPPEN MORE IN THE FUTURE.

>> Jeff: LEON, THE LAST TIME WE SAW ONE OF THESE CASES INSIDE A CRIMINAL COURTROOM WAS THE JAMES BOYD SHOOTING.

AND THAT CASE ENDED IN A HUNG JURY, WHICH I THINK WAS UNSATISFYING FOR PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS IN THIS TOWN.

STATE-WIDE WHAT ARE THE STAKES?

WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THIS CASE IS FINISHED?

>> MR. HOWARD: YOU KNOW, THE IMPACT ON COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, A LOT OF PEOPLE GRAPPLE WITH THE ISSUE OF DO WE CELEBRATE WHEN AN OFFICER IS CHARGED?

IS IT THIS, YOU KNOW, WE SEE THE SYSTEM WORKING FOR OTHER PEOPLE, SO THIS IS A MOMENT THAT WE CAN SEE THE SYSTEM ALSO WORKED FOR US.

BUT THERE IS DEEPER CONVERSATIONS AROUND RESTORATIVE JUSTICE AND A DISCORD IN CELEBRATING THE PROSECUTION AND POTENTIAL JAIL TIME OF ANYBODY BECAUSE IT UPHOLDS THOSE SYSTEMS AND WE KNOW THAT JUST ONE INSTANCE OF A COP BEING PROSECUTED AND GOING TO JAIL ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE THE DISPARATE IMPACT OF THE CARCERAL SYSTEM ON PEOPLE OF COLOR.

IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE DISPARATE IMPACT OF POLICING ON PEOPLE OF COLOR, SO I DON'T HAVE A CLEAN ANSWER TO THAT.

>> Jeff: I DON'T THINK IT IS A CLEAN QUESTION.

JUDGE WALTON, COULD THIS CASE POTENTIALLY HAVE RAMIFICATIONS OR MAKE CHANGE IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM MORE BROADLY?

DEPENDING HOW IT TURNS OUT.

>> MS. WALTON: I DOUBT IT.

I DON'T SEE THERE IS ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR ABOUT THIS CASE THAT WOULD CHANGE THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

WITH RESPECT TO THE APPROACH OF DISTRICT ATTORNEYS OFFICES OR THE AG'S OFFICE AND THE WILLINGNESS TO BRING CASES, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT A JURY DOES AND WHAT A JURY DECIDES.

AND I THINK THE FACT IS, VERY RARELY DOES A CONVICTION BRING KIND OF A CLOSER, THE SATISFACTION OF THE RESOLUTION THAT WE THINK, EVEN IN JUST A MURDER CASE.

IT DOESN'T BRING THAT PERSON BACK AND IT DOESN'T FIX WHATEVER WAS WRONG.

AND WE DO A LOT OF DISCIPLINE AND REVIEWS ON AN ADMINISTRATIVE SIDE TO TRY TO FIX PROBLEMS AND TO CHANGE BEHAVIOR AND TO SEND THOSE MESSAGES TO POLICE OFFICERS, BUT THERE IS NO TRANSPARENCY.

BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF PERSONNEL ACTIONS, THE PUBLIC NEVER HEARS ABOUT THOSE AND NEVER SEE THEM.

EVEN THOUGH THERE IS VERY FEW CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS THERE IS A LOT OF ADMINISTRATIVE INVESTIGATIONS AND ADMINISTRATIVE ACTIONS THAT ARE TAKEN BY AGENCIES, THAT INCLUDES OFFICERS WHO LOSE THEIR JOBS, AND THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THE PUBLIC HEARS ABOUT VERY OFTEN.

TO REALLY HAVE THE IDEA THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE TAKING THINGS SERIOUSLY, THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE CHANGES AND THEY ARE INDEED MAKING CHANGES AND REVIEWING EACH OTHER.

ALBUQUERQUE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS PUT A SIGNIFICANT SHIFT INTO HOW MANY PEOPLE REVIEW THE CASES, WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO, THEY HAVE A JUDGE OVERSEEING TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE DOING THINGS RIGHT IN ADDITION TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE SYSTEM.

SO THERE ARE CHANGES.

I JUST DON'T KNOW THAT THE CRIMINAL APPROACH IS GOING TO LEAD THE CHANGE.

I THINK IT IS MORE THESE OTHER THINGS IN PLACE WILL REALLY DRIVE THE CHANGE WITHIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

>> Jeff: SPEAKING ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE POTENTIALLY UNSATISFYING, THE SECRECY AROUND ADMINISTRATIVE AND POLICE DEPARTMENTS, WE COULD SPEND A WHOLE SEGMENT ON THAT ANOTHER TIME.

THANK YOU TO JOSHUA BOWLING, JUDGE WALTON AND LEON HOWARD FOR HAVING AT LEAST A VERSION OF THIS CONVERSATION WITH ME.

WE DID SPEND A GOOD CHUNK OF TIME TALKING ABOUT SOLUTIONS TO THE POLICE SHOOTING ISSUE IN OUR STATE.

WE JUST COULDN'T FIT IT IN THE BROADCAST.

SO, HEAD OVER TO THE YOUTUBE PAGE AND CHECK THAT OUT.

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE FOR BEING HERE.

>> Lou: THANKS AGAIN TO JEFF AND OUR PANELISTS FOR THOSE DISCUSSIONS.

WE'LL FOLLOW THE LUNSFORD CASE CLOSELY AND WE'LL LET YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.

WE TURN NOW TO A STORY FIRST REPORTED BY TWO JOURNALISTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO STUDENT NEWSPAPER, THE DAILY LOBO, WHICH EXPOSED VIOLATIONS OF A FEDERAL CRIME TRANSPARENCY LAW.

THE CLERY ACT REQUIRES HIGHER EDUCATION INSTITUTIONS TO PUBLISH AN ANNUAL SECURITY REPORT AS WELL AS A DAILY CRIME LOG THAT INCLUDES THE NATURE OF THE INCIDENT, THE DATE, TIME AND GENERAL LOCATION AND WHETHER THE CASE IS CONSIDERED OPEN OR CLOSED.

JOURNALISTS LAUREN LIFKE AND LILY ALEXANDER JOIN JEFF IN STUDIO TO DISCUSS THEIR WORK AND EXPLAIN HOW THE UNIVERSITY HAS QUIETLY RESPONDED TO THEIR REPORTING.

>> Jeff: LILY ALEXANDER, LAUREN LIFKE, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME ON NEW MEXICO FOCUS.

SO AS WE JUST HEARD FROM LOU, YOU TWO WROTE A STORY FOR THE DAILY LOBO THAT RAN EARLIER THIS MONTH, DETAILING A NUMBER OF VIOLATIONS OF THE CLERY ACT BY THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

LAUREN, WHAT WERE YOU GUYS HEARING ABOUT THE CAMPUS SECURITY SYSTEMS AND WHAT WERE PEOPLE TELLING YOU ABOUT THOSE SYSTEMS?

>> MS. LIFKE: SO WHAT FIRST STARTED FOR ME WAS THERE WAS A SHOOTING OUTSIDE OF THE LOBO VILLAGE NEAR SOUTH CAMPUS EARLIER THAT MONTH, EARLY SEPTEMBER, AND I LIVE IN LOBO VILLAGE AND WHEN THAT FIRST HAPPENED, I HEARD ABOUT IT FROM MY ROOMMATE ABOUT A WHILE BEFORE THE LOBO ALERT CAME OUT ABOUT THE SITUATION.

AND SO I WROTE THE ARTICLE ABOUT THAT STORY AND THEN AFTER THAT I KIND OF WANTED TO DO A FOLLOWUP.

SO WE WENT TO LOOK INTO HOW LOBO ALERTS WORK AND WHY THERE WAS SUCH A DELAY AND THAT IS WHAT HAD US LOOKING INTO THE CLERY ACT.

>> Jeff: LET'S STAY WITH YOU FOR A MINUTE.

I WANT TO GET DEFINITIONAL STUFF OUT OF THE WAY.

WHAT ARE LOBO ALERTS?

WHAT ARE THE DAILY CRIME LOGS AND WHAT ROLE DO THOSE SYSTEMS PLAY IN THE CAMPUS COMMUNITY.

WHY ARE THEY IMPORTANT?

>> MS. LIFKE: SO LOBO ALERTS AND LOBO ADVISORIES ARE BOTH A FORM OF NOTIFYING THE CAMPUS WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENS ON CAMPUS THAT MIGHT BE A DANGER TO THEM.

SO, THERE IS A SPECIFIC SET OF CLERY LAWS OF CLERY VIOLATIONS, WHICH WOULD BE THINGS ALONG THE LINES OF AN ASSAULT, SHOOTINGS, THINGS LIKE THAT THAT REQUIRES CAMPUSES TO, IF SOMETHING LIKE THAT HAPPENS ON OR NEAR CAMPUS, THEY HAVE TO SEND OUT EITHER AN EMERGENCY NOTIFICATION OR TIMELY ALERTS.

>> Jeff: TEXT MESSAGES, EMAILS, THINGS LIKE THAT?

>> MS. LIFKE: YEAH, SO UNM DOES IT THROUGH TEXT MESSAGE AND EMAIL.

SO, THAT IS WHAT THAT IS.

ALL CAMPUSES WITH A POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE THAT AND SAME WITH THE DAILY CRIME LOG AS WELLING THAT SHOULD HAVE ALL OF THE CRIME, CLERY CRIMES THAT ARE REPORTED TO UNM PD AS WELL AS WHATEVER INFORMATION THAT UNM CAN GET FROM APD THAT HAPPENS NEAR CAMPUS AS WELL.

>> Jeff: AND THE IDEA IS TO KEEP CAMPUS SAFE.

THE IDEA AND THE PURPOSE OF THESE SYSTEMS ON CAMPUS.

RIGHT?

>> MS. ALEXANDER: YEAH.

IT IS TO KEEP STUDENTS SAFE AND TO JUST INCREASE TRANSPARENCY BETWEEN THE UNIVERSITY AND THEIR STUDENTS ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING ON AND AROUND CAMPUS THAT MAY BE AFFECTING THEM IN THEIR EDUCATION.

>> Jeff: ONCE YOU TEAMED UP WITH LAUREN ON THIS AND YOU GOT PAST THAT SORT OF BEGINNING STAGE OF WHAT YOU WERE OBSERVING AND HEARING ABOUT THE SECURITY SYSTEMS, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT IN THE REPORTING THAT GOT YOU TO SOME OF THE LARGER SYSTEMIC ISSUES THAT WERE ULTIMATELY UNCOVERED AND PUBLISHED IN THE NEWSPAPER.

>> MS. ALEXANDER: WHEN WE STARTED DIGGING INTO THE LOBO ALERTS WE FOUND THE CLERY ACT AND WE KIND OF JUST READ AS MUCH AS WE COULD UNDERSTAND OF THE ACTUAL ACT.

AND WE SAW THE OTHER REQUIREMENTS SUCH AS THE CRIME LOG AND THE ANNUAL SECURITY REPORT.

AND ALSO WE SPOKE WITH AN EMERGENCY MANAGER AT UNM, WHO TOLD US ABOUT THE CLERY ACT AND WHAT THE UNIVERSITY IS REQUIRED TO DO FOR THAT.

SO, WE JUST KIND OF DUG INTO ALL ASPECTS OF IT, LIKE THE CRIME LOG AND ENDED UP STUMBLING UPON SOME VERY INTERESTING VIOLATIONS.

>> Jeff: LET'S GET TO THE VIOLATIONS IN A SECOND BUT SINCE WE ARE ON THE SUBJECT, WHAT IS THE CLERY ACT AND WHAT IS IT MEANT TO DO.

>> MS. ALEXANDER: THE CLERY ACT WAS SIGNED IN 1990 TO ENFORCE TRANSPARENCY BETWEEN UNIVERSITIES AND THEIR STUDENTS.

AND IT REQUIRES UNIVERSITIES TO DO THE TIMELY EMERGENCY NOTIFICATIONS AND SEND THOSE OUT, COMPILE ALL OF THE CRIME STATISTICS FOR THE CALENDAR YEAR AND PUBLISH IT IN AN ANNUAL REPORT AT THE END OF THE YEAR AND KEEP A DAILY CRIME LOG FEATURING ALL THE CRIMES THAT OCCUR ON CAMPUS THAT ARE REPORTED TO PERSONNEL AS LAUREN SAID EARLIER.

>> Jeff: THIS IS A FEDERAL LAW.

>> MS. ALEXANDER: IT IS A FEDERAL STATUTE.

>> Jeff: LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS YOU IDENTIFIED, THE PROBLEMS.

IT SEEMS TO ME THERE WERE THREE BUCKETS, THREE CATEGORIES THAT YOU FOUND VIOLATIONS AND PROBLEMS IN, THE LOBO ALERT SYSTEM, THE DAILY CRIME LOGS AND THE ANNUAL SECURITY REPORT.

CAN WE GET, FOR VIEWERS, A BASIC WALK THROUGH, JUST THE FACT STYLE OF THE VIOLATIONS THAT YOU ALL FOUND.

>> MS. LIFKE: THE MAIN ONE WAS THE MOST OBVIOUS WAS THE DAILY CRIME LOG.

THE CLERY ACT STATES THAT UNIVERSITIES SHOULD HAVE A DAILY CRIME LOG EASILY ACCESSIBLE, EASY TO READ AND ACCESSIBLE DURING NORMAL BUSINESS HOURS THAT ANY STUDENT CAN LOOK AT AND IT SHOULD INCLUDE THE NATURE OF THE CRIME, THE LOCATION, THE TIME, THE DATE, AND THE DISPOSITION IF IT IS KNOWN WHETHER THE CASE IS SOLVED OR NOT.

WHEN WE OPENED THE DAILY CRIME LOG, IT DIDN'T HAVE ALL OF THAT.

SOME OF THE ENTRIES HAD MORE THINGS THAN OTHERS BUT MOST OF THEM DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME, ALMOST NONE OF THEM HAD THE LOCATION.

AND NONE OF THEM HAD THE DISPOSITION.

>> Jeff: SO, IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THE CLERY ACT AGAIN, IT NOT BEING A SET OF SUGGESTIONS, NOT BEING A STATE STATUTE OR UNM POLICY, THIS IS FEDERAL LAW.

VIOLATING FEDERAL LAW SEEMS TO BE VERY, VERY BAD FOR A UNIVERSITY.

I DON'T WANT TO ASK EITHER OF YOU TO GET BEYOND WHERE THE REPORTING HAS GONE BUT WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF WHAT UNM KNOWS ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT COMPLIANCE IS?

>> MS. LIFKE: WE TALKED TO -- THEY HAVE A CLERY COORDINATOR THERE AND ALSO UNM PD DOES HAVE, YOU KNOW, THEY GENERALLY SHOULD HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF HOW THE CLERY ACT WORKS BUT WHEN WE TALKED TO THE CLERY COORDINATOR, SHE KNEW MOST OF THE INFORMATION BUT SHE WAS A LITTLE BIT NEWER AT THE JOB.

SHE STARTED IN FEBRUARY OF 2022.

SO, SHE WAS CAUGHT UP ON -- SHE WAS TRYING TO KIND OF CATCH UP ON UPDATING THE ANNUAL CRIME REPORT AND TRYING TO FIX THE DAILY CRIME LOG, BUT GENERALLY WHEN WE ASKED UNM PD ABOUT THE CLERY ACT, WE WERE POINTED IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

>> Jeff: WE WILL GET TO THAT LATER IN THE INTERVIEW.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT CONSEQUENCES FOR VIOLATIONS OF THE CLERY ACT.

I AM SURE THAT MOST VIEWERS HAVE PROBABLY SEEN THE RECENT WASHINGTON POST REPORTING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING AT LIBERTY UNIVERSITY IN VIRGINIA.

THEIR FEDERAL FUNDING IS AT STAKE, FINES ARE POSSIBLE.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE SAW WHAT HAPPENED AT MICHIGAN STATE WITH LARRY NASSAR, THE GYMNASTICS COACH, FOUR-AND-A-HALF MILLION WORTH OF FINES LEVIED AGAINST THAT UNIVERSITY AS A RESULT OF CLERY ACT VIOLATIONS.

SO, HAS ANYONE THAT YOU ALL TALKED TO SO FAR IN THE COURSE OF REPORTING ALL OF THIS, ACKNOWLEDGED THE POSSIBILITY THAT UNM COULD BE IN SOME SERIOUS TROUBLE HERE?

>> MS. ALEXANDER: NOT AT ALL.

WE HAVE NOT RECEIVED RESPONSES FROM UNM PD OR JUST THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF.

EVEN ANY ACKNOWLEDGMENT.

ALTHOUGH AFTER THE STORY WAS PUBLISHED, THE DAILY CRIME LOG WAS QUIETLY UPDATED TO INCLUDE THE COLUMNS OF INFORMATION THAT WE POINTED OUT IT WAS MISSING, BUT WE DIDN'T RECEIVE ANY NOTIFICATION OF THAT HAPPENING.

WE JUST CHECKED AND SAW IT LIKE THAT.

SO, NO ONE HAS REACHED OUT.

>> Jeff: THAT IS VERY INTERESTING.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE THE MOST ABOUT THIS STORY WAS HOW NOT BASHFUL YOU ALL WERE IN TERMS OF THE WAY YOU FRAMED AND WORDED THE STORY.

IT STRAIGHT UP SAYS, IT SAYS IT RIGHT IN THE HEADLINE, THAT UNM IS OUT OF COMPLIANCE WITH THIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT FEDERAL STATUTE.

I WANT YOU TO TELL VIEWERS, LAUREN YOU FIRST AND LILY IF YOU WANT TO JUMP IN TOO, WHAT MADE YOU SO CONFIDENT AND WHAT MADE YOUR EDITORS SO CONFIDENT THAT YOU COULD WRITE THE STORY SO AUTHORITATIVELY.

>> MS. LIFKE: AFTER LEARNING THE FACTS FROM PEOPLE AT THE CLERY CENTER FROM PEOPLE AT UNM AND FROM READING THE CLERY ACT, WHICH WE KIND OF SPENT A LONG TIME JUST LOOKING THROUGH IT, IT WAS JUST OBVIOUS.

IT WAS JUST THERE.

AND WE WERE HESITANT TO PUT JUST THAT LEVEL OF AUTHORITY IN THE HEADLINES.

WE PROBABLY SPENT AN HOUR THINKING OF WHAT WE SHOULD SAY AND THEN ULTIMATELY, WE LANDED ON SOMETHING THAT SAID, MISSING DATA SUGGESTS THAT UNM IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE BUT OUR EDITOR READ THE STORY AND THEY JUST TOOK THAT PART OUT AND LEFT IT WITH THE FACTS THERE.

>> Jeff: I WOULD IMAGINE BOTH OF YOU WERE CONFIDENT AND COMFORTABLE WITH THE HEADLINE AT THE END OF THE DAY?

>> MS. ALEXANDER: YEAH.

>> Jeff: AND THAT IS A SERVICE TO READERS.

LIKE IF YOU HAVE GOT IT, YOU HAVE GOT IT.

AND IT SOUNDS LIKE, I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK, THE REACTION THAT HAS HAPPENED.

IT SOUNDS LIKE IT HAS BEEN CRICKETS FROM THE UNIVERSITY AND FROM UNM PD.

NO ONE HAS CALLED TO SAY YOU GOT THE STORY WRONG OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

WHAT HAS THE REACTION BEEN LIKE FROM THE CAMPUS COMMUNITY?

HAVE PEOPLE BEEN HITTING THE LOBO UP, FILLING YOU GUYS UP IN YOUR DM'S TO TELL YOU, YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS, YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS?

WHAT HAVE PEOPLE -- HOW HAVE PEOPLE RESPONDED?

>> MS. ALEXANDER: A LOT OF PEOPLE ON CAMPUS SEEM TO HAVE READ IT.

WE HAVE GOTTEN COMPLIMENTS FROM VARIOUS TEACHERS AND OTHER PEOPLE.

WE HAVE GOTTEN SOME MESSAGES ABOUT OTHER SITUATIONS THAT WE MIGHT WANT TO LOOK INTO INVOLVING TRANSPARENCY ABOUT CRIME ON CAMPUS, SO WE'LL BE DIGGING INTO THOSE TOO.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO RETURN TO SOMETHING YOU MENTIONED WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE YOU PUBLISHED THIS STORY WHEN YOU WENT LOOKING FOR ANSWERS.

THE POINTS OF ACCOUNTABILITY.

WHO IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?

IT READ TO ME LIKE WHAT YOU ALL GOT WAS THE CLASSIC WIZARD OF OZ SCARE CROW THING, POINTING THIS WAY, ONE COP REFERRED YOU TO ON COP.

THAT COP REFERRED YOU BACK TO THE OTHER COP.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT WAS LIKE WHEN YOU WENT LOOKING FOR THE ACCOUNTABILITY PART OF THE STORY.

>> MS. LIFKE: SO IT STARTED WITH US JUST TALKING TO THE EMERGENCY MANAGER ABOUT JUST THE LOBO ALERTS.

WELL, ACTUALLY BEFORE THAT IT STARTED WITH LILY EMAILING UNM PD.

SHE EMAILED LIKE MOST OF THE LIEUTENANTS THERE, ALL OF THE LIEUTENANTS.

>> Jeff: YOU SPANNED THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?

>> MS. ALEXANDER: YEAH.

>> Jeff: I LOVE THAT.

>> MS. LIFKE: SO, SHE EMAILED ALL THOSE LIEUTENANTS AND THE VAST MAJORITY RESPONDED SAYING, I DON'T SEND OUT THE LOBO ALERTS, TALK TO SOMEBODY ELSE.

AND WE EVENTUALLY DID GET POINTED TO THE EMERGENCY MANAGER.

WE TALKED TO HIM, AND WE WERE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT HE IS THE ONE THAT SENDS THE LOBO ALERTS BY THE WAY THEY WERE KIND OF WORDED IN THEIR EMAILS.

WHEN WE TALKED TO HIM, HE SAID, NO, UNM PD SENDS ALL THE LOBO ALERTS.

SO THAT GOT US THINKING AND THEN WHEN WE LOOKED MORE INTO THE CLERY ACT, WE TALKED TO THE CLERY COORDINATOR.

SHE WAS VERY HELPFUL BUT WE DID NEED LIKE SOME MORE CLARIFICATION ON THINGS THAT ONLY UNM PD COULD PROVIDE.

AND WHEN WE TALKED TO UNM PD FINALLY THEY POINTED US TOWARD THE CLERY COORDINATOR.

>> Jeff: I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT YOU ARE FINISHED WITH THIS STORY BY A LONG SHOT.

WHAT QUESTIONS DO YOU STILL HAVE AND CAN I KEEP READING ABOUT THIS IN THE DAILY LOBO?

>> MS. ALEXANDER: YES, ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN NAMELY WE WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE SYSTEM BEHIND THE SCENES AND HOW DATA IS BEING INPUTTED INTO THE SYSTEM, ESPECIALLY REGARDING THE CRIME LOG BECAUSE WE HAVE NOTICED STILL SOME DISCREPANCIES AND THE LOCATION ISN'T ALWAYS THERE.

SO WE WANT TO UNDERSTAND HOW THAT WORKS AND ALSO WHO IS ACTIVELY PUTTING THE INFORMATION IN BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GET A SUPER CLEAR ANSWER IN THE END BEING POINTED TO SO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

>> Jeff: YOU WANT TO SEE THE GUTS OF THE OPERATION AND PUT THAT IN THE NEWSPAPER SO THAT I CAN READ IT.

ANYONE WHO IS NOT ALREADY READING THE LOBO WHO IS WATCHING THIS, I HOPE THIS WILL BE A GOOD IMPETUS TO START READING THE STUDENT NEWSPAPER.

LILY, LAUREN, THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK AND FOR TALKING TO ME ABOUT IT TODAY.

>> MS. ALEXANDER: THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> MS. LIFKE: THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Lou: THANKS TO JEFF ONCE AGAIN AND LAUREN AND LILY FOR THEIR REPORTING AND FOR TAKING TIME TO COME IN AND TELL US ABOUT IT.

NOW, WE SHIFT OUR ATTENTION TO SOUTHWEST NEW MEXICO AND THE MIGHTY GILA RIVER.

HERE IS OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS.

>> Laura: IN NEW MEXICO WE PUT OUR RIVERS TO WORK.

WE TREAT THEM AS CONVEYANCE CHANNELS FOR WATER WE WANT TO USE AND WE USE THEM TO DILUTE THE WASTE WE DON'T WANT.

OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS IN THE U.S., THIS MINDSET HAS DOMINATED OUR SOCIETY.

WE THINK ALWAYS OF HOW RIVERS SERVE US.

RARELY DO WE REMEMBER THAT RIVERS ARE THEIR OWN CREATURES AND AS LIVING BEINGS THEMSELVES THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO TEACH US.

WITH FUNDING FROM THE WATER DESK AT THE UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO BOLDER, THE OUR LAND CREW VISITED THE GILA RIVER INCLUDING A STRETCH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN CHANGED FOREVER IF NEW MEXICO HAD MOVED FORWARD ON A CONTROVERSIAL DIVERSION.

IN THIS SPECIAL OUR LAND SEGMENT, WE CONSIDER WHAT LESSONS THE UPPER GILA RIVER HOLD FOR THE FUTURE AND FOR THE REST OF THE COLORADO RIVER BASIN DOWNSTREAM.

[SOFT MUSIC PLAYING] SOUTHWESTERN NEW MEXICO HAS WITNESSED MANY BATTLES, INCLUDING OVER THE WATERS OF THE GILA RIVER AND WHO GETS TO USE THEM.

DOWN IN THIS VALLEY, DOWNSTREAM OF THE NATION'S FIRST DESIGNATED WILDERNESS AREA, THE MOST RECENT BATTLE WAS OVER BUILDING A DIVERSION ON A FREE FLOWING STRETCH OF THE RIVER HIGH IN THE WATERSHED.

BUT, PEOPLE ALSO LOVED GILA, EVEN IF IT IS FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

>> MS. COOPER: I LOVE SWIMMING IN IT, I LOVE SITTING BY IT, RUNNING BY IT.

OTHER PEOPLE LOVE IT BECAUSE OF THE CROPS THEY GROW FROM THE WATER FROM THE RIVER AND THEY SAW AN OPPORTUNITY TO DIVERT MORE WATER AND HAVE MORE WATER AVAILABLE THROUGHOUT THE YEAR.

THEY WANTED THAT RELIABILITY.

SO IT HELPED ME TO REMEMBER THAT WE ALL LOVE THE SAME PLACE JUST FROM DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.

>> Laura: THIS RIVER IS HOME TO SO MUCH LIFE.

IT NURTURES FARMLANDS AND CITIES, WILDLIFE, AND ECOSYSTEMS.

[SOUNDS OF FLOWING WATER] IF WE PAY ATTENTION, IT ALSO HAS A LOT TO TEACH US.

>> MS. COOPER: I LIKE TO CALL IT A REFERENCE RIVER.

A PLACE THAT WE CAN COME AND KIND OF LEARN HOW RIVERS USED TO WORK BEFORE THEY WERE DAMMED AND OVER-DIVERTED AND DEWATERED.

>> WE CAN'T REALLY RESTORE RIVERS WITHOUT THERE BE SOMETHING WATER IN THEM.

I THINK THE IMPORTANCE OF SOME PERENNIAL FLOW IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THE GILA SHOWS US.

>> AS WE TRY TO LIVE WITH CLIMATE CHANGE AND THIS INCREASED RANGE OF FLOWS WE ARE GOING TO HAVE EVEN BIGGER FLOODS AND WE ARE GOING TO HAVE EVEN LOWER FLOWS AND LONGER PERIODS OF LOW FLOWS.

IT IS DURING THOSE LOW FLOW PERIODS THAT PEOPLE START THINKING WE CAN, LIKE, MOVE OUR WAY BACK INTO THE FLOODPLAIN AND THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THIS VALLEY.

AND THEN THE FLOODS COME AND PEOPLE ARE LIKE, OOPS, YES, BACK TO THE EDGES.

>> Laura: THE GILA IS A TRIBUTARY OF THE COLORADO RIVER WHERE FURTHER DOWNSTREAM MAJOR CITIES AND BIG IRRIGATION DISTRICTS VIE FOR WATER FROM THE COLORADO'S DECLINING FLOWS AND DROPPING RESERVOIRS.

HERE HIGH IN THE WATERSHED, THE GILA OFFERS SOMETHING ELSE.

WILDNESS, UNPREDICTABILITY, A GLIMPSE OF THE PAST AND A MAP FOR THE FUTURE.

BEFORE WHITE SETTLERS STARTED FARMING ALONG THE GILA, THIS WAS APACHE LAND.

>> MR. SAENZ: WE REFER TO IT AS NDE BEHAN.

[SPEAKING APACHE] >> Laura: GROWING UP JOE SAENZ' MOTHER TAUGHT HIM ABOUT WATER.

>> MR. SAENZ: SHE WOULD TALK ABOUT WATER AS A SPIRIT, LIKE MY GRANDFATHER USED TO TALK ABOUT TREES LIKE THEY WERE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW.

EVEN THOUGH WE LIVE IN THE KIND OF COUNTRY THAT WE LIVE IN, AS THE DIALOGUE GOES, WE HAD HYDROLOGISTS, WE HAD PEOPLE THAT UNDERSTOOD WATER AND WHERE IT WAS, HOW TO GET IT, WHAT WAS GOOD, WHAT WAS NOT.

AND SO WATER HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF THOSE ELEMENTS THAT SHOULD BE IN BALANCE WITH EVERYTHING ELSE.

>> Laura: NOW MORE THAN EVER, WE NEED TO FIND BALANCE.

HERE THERE IS STILL A PLACE TO LEARN.

>> MR. SAENZ: WHAT DOES GILA MEAN, TO US IT'S A SPANISH WORD, YOU KNOW, BUT IT DOESN'T DO MUCH TO INSPIRE US, SO WE RATHER SUGGESTED THAT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO PROTECT THIS COUNTRY, INCLUDE US, BECAUSE WE CAN TELL YOU HOW TO PROTECT IT.

WE CAN TELL YOU THE INTRICACIES OF THE ANIMALS, THE GRASS, THE WATERS, THE TREES, THE PLANTS, EVERYTHING, HOW THEY FIT TOGETHER AND WHAT YOU NEED TO CONSIDER AND HOW TO PROTECT IT, BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO BREAK IT UP AND JUST PROTECT PIECES, THAT IS NOT GOING TO WORK EITHER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.

>> Laura: BREAKING A RIVER APART FROM ITS LAND, DIVIDING A RIVER INTO STRETCHES, SPLITTING THE PARTS OF A WHOLE INTO WHATEVER HUMANS WANT AT THE MOMENT, THAT DOESN'T WORK.

OR AT LEAST IT DOESN'T WORK FOR LONG.

>> MR. SAENZ: I ASKED MY ELDERS, I ASKED THEM, CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT WHAT THIS PLACE WAS CALLED, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE SOME OF THOSE NAMES WE HAVE LOST FROM HOW WE WERE SCATTERED FROM THIS COUNTRY, WE HAVE LOST THOSE.

THEY THEMSELVES ASKED AROUND TO OTHER ELDERS AND THE CLOSEST THING WHAT HE COULD COME TO THAT THEY SHARED WITH ME WAS THAT AT ONE POINT THEY MAY HAVE REFERRED TO THE GILA AND THIS REGION AS HOOTH LE, A TERM THAT DESCRIBES THE BEGINNING WHERE EVERYTHING EMANATES FROM, THE START.

SO IT TIES IN WITH OUR CREATION STORIES, THE RIVER ITSELF.

>> Laura: SAENZ SAYS THAT FOR THE APACHE, CULTURE REVOLVES AROUND CHANGE, BUT SO MANY OF THE CHANGES HE SEES TODAY AROUND HIS HOME AND WHEN HE LEADS OUTFITTING TRIPS INTO THE GILA, THOSE ARE DIFFERENT.

>> MR. SAENZ: I HAVE NOTICED IN REALTIME HERE, I MEAN, FOR ME TO HAVE GROWN UP IN A TIME WHEN YOU COULD LITERALLY SET YOUR CLOCK TO SOME THINGS.

YOU CAN'T REALLY DO THAT ANYMORE.

WHAT I STARTED TO NOTICE WAS THE VULTURES AND THE EAGLES.

IT USED TO ALWAYS BE LIKE CLOCK WORK, APRIL 1 AND NOVEMBER 1, THEY SWITCHED.

THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, THEY ARE A WEEK OFF.

YOU KNOW.

NO BIG DEAL, NOBODY NOTICES THAT, I GUESS, YOU KNOW, MAYBE SOME PEOPLE DO.

I STARTED TO SEE THE WEATHER CHANGE YOU KNOW 15 YEARS AGO WHERE IT WAS LIKE, THIS CAN'T BE DROUGHT.

THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE HERE.

FOR THE LAST 200 YEARS AMERICA HAS BEEN PROGRESSING TO A POINT THAT LITERALLY IT IS KILLING ITSELF.

AND WHEN PEOPLE ASK, WHAT IS HAPPENING?

WHAT ARE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

IT IS KIND OF TOUGH, BECAUSE, MY RESPONSE IS ALWAYS, WE TRIED 500 YEARS AGO TO TELL YOU DON'T DO THIS.

WE TOLD YOU 300 YEARS AGO, WE TOLD YOU 200 YEARS AGO.

AND WHEN WE TOLD YOU 200 YEARS AGO, YOU PUT US IN JAIL.

AND SO YOU'RE NOT LISTENING TO THE CHANGE.

>> Laura: TO SURVIVE THIS WARMING WORLD WITH ITS DROUGHTS AND FIRES AND FLOODS, WE NEED TO CHANGE, AND WE CAN START BY LISTENING TO THE GILA.

>> Saenz: TO ME, TO US, THE RIVER IS BASICALLY TELLING US JOIN ME.

DON'T TRY TO STOP ME.

DON'T TRY TO CHANGE ME.

JOIN ME AND LIVE WITH HOW I CHANGE.

THERE ARE REASONS FOR THOSE FLOODS.

THERE ARE REASONS FOR TIMES WHEN THE RIVERS RUN SLOW.

THERE IS REASONS FOR ALL OF THAT AND SO THOSE CHANGES NEED TO HAPPEN.

>> Lou: THANK YOU TO LAURA PASKUS, PRODUCTION DIRECTOR, ANTONY LOSTETTER AND OUR ENTIRE CREW FOR THEIR BEAUTIFUL WORK.

YOU CAN FIND ALL THEIR STORIES ONLINE RIGHT NOW ON THE OUR LAND YOUTUBE PAGE.

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