♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST, AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR," 89.7.

TONIGHT: THE TRIAL OF DEREK CHAUVIN.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF, AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

JURORS IN THE TRIAL OF FORMER MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICER DEREK CHAUVIN TOOK LESS THAN A DAY TO DECIDE HIS FATE: GUILTY ON THREE COUNTS FOR THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, THE GUILTY VERDICTS WERE GREETED WITH SHOCK, RELIEF, AND VINDICATION.

BUT EVEN AS THE HANDCUFFED CHAUVIN WAS LED AWAY, THERE WEREñr SEVERAL MORE FATAL POLICE SHOOTINGS OF BLACK AMERICANS.

ARE THE CHAUVIN GUILTY VERDICTS NOT SO MUCH A VICTORY AS THEY ARE A REMINDER THAT POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRUE JUSTICE ARE STILL A LONG WAY OFF?

JOINING US: PHILLIP MARTIN, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, GBH NEWS CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING; TANISHA SULLIVAN, ESQ., PRESIDENT OF THE N.A.A.C.P., BOSTON BRANCH-- SHE IS ALSO A MEMBER OF THE GBH BOARD OF ADVISORS; BOSTON POLICE DETECTIVE, LARRY ELLISON-- HE'S ALSO THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS ASSOCIATION OF MINORITY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS, DETECTIVE ELLISON WAS RECENTLY APPOINTED TO THE MASSACHUSETTS PEACE OFFICER STANDARDS AND TRAINING COMMISSION; DR. XENIA JOHNSON BHEMBE, AN ASSISTANT CLINICAL PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY AT HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL AND FOUNDER OF THE RACE RECOVERY PROJECT.

BUT FIRST, BRANDT WILLIAMS IS JOINING US FROM MINNESOTA PUBLIC RADIO, WHERE HE HAS BEEN ON THE GROUND, REPORTING THE STORY OF GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER AND THE CHAUVIN TRIAL.

HELLO, BRANDT.

>> HI, HOW YOU DOING CALLIE?

>> Crossley: HOW DO YOU DESCRIBE WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE?

I MEAN THERE WAS I THINK A DESIRE TO HAVE A FULL-ON CELEBRATION BUT IT WAS TEMPERED BY THE FUNERAL PLANS FOR DANTE WRIGHT AND THE FACT THAT THIS IS NOT OVER YET.

TELL US WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE NOW.

>> RIGHT, SO I WAS DOWNTOWN, OUTSIDE THE COURTHOUSE A FEW ARE MINUTES AFTER THE VERDICTS WERE READ AND WAS WALKING THROUGH THE CROWD AS PEOPLE WERE CELEBRATING AND HOLDING SIGNS AND CELEBRATING WHAT THEY FELT IS A VICTORY FOR GEORGE FLOYD AND FOR JUSTICE.

AND -- BUT I KEPT HEARING PEOPLE IN THE CROWD SAYING THAT THERE'S STILL MORE WORK TO BE DONE.

THERE IS A MAN CHANTING, WE NEED ONE MORE CONVICTION, HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE POLICE OFFICER KIMBERLY POTTER WHO SHOT AND KILLED DAUNTE WRIGHT.

THERE ARE ACTIVISTS CALLING NOW FOR THE STATE OF MINNESOTA TO REOPEN THE CASES OF THE KILLINGS OF OTHER PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE STATE, NOT JUST IN MINNEAPOLIS.

SO PEOPLE ARE -- SEEMS LIKE THEY FEEL LIKE PERHAPS THEY HAVE A WIND AT THEIR BACK THAT'S GIVING THEM SOME ENERGY TOWARDS SEEKING SOME REAL REFORM.

>> Crossley: AND WHEN ABOUT THE PATTERN AND PRACTICE INVESTIGATION NOW LAUNCHED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, WHAT WILL THAT MEAN IMMEDIATELY IN MINNEAPOLIS?

>> WELL, THEY'VE ALREADY STARTED THE INVESTIGATION, MERRICK GARLD, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL ANNOUNCED THAT -- GARLAND U.S. ATTORNEY RELEASED THAT EARLIER THIS WEEK.

THEY ARE GOING TO BE INTERVIEWING COMMUNITY MEMBERS, POLICE OFFICERS, THEY ARE LOOKING AT TRAINING AND PROCEDURES.

THEY ARE LOOKING AT AS THE NAME OF INVESTIGATION IMPLIES, PATTERNS AND PRACTICES OF UNLAWFUL POLICING IN MINNEAPOLIS AND THEY ARE GOING TO CONDUCT WHAT COULD BE ANYWHERE FROM SIX-MONTH TO NINE-MONTH OR LONGER INVESTIGATION, IF THEY DO FIND EVIDENCE OF THIS TYPE OF DISCRIMINATORY POLICING THEY'LL COMPLETE A LENGTHY REPORT WHICH WILL BE AVAILABLE FOLLOWING THAT.

AND THEY COULD FORM A CONSENT DECREE HE BETWEEN THE CITY OF MINNEAPOLIS AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

THAT COULD BE USED IF THE GUIDELINES ARE NOT FOLLOWED BY THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT COULD RESULT IN LITIGATION.

>> Crossley: THANK YOU SO MUCH BRANT FOR JOINING US.

I'M SURE THERE WILL BE MORE TRIAL OF OTHER POLICE OFFICERS COMING UP IN THE SUMMER.

THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> Crossley: SO THE REACTION HERE IN NEW ENGLAND AND IN BOSTON HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT MIRRORED WHAT HAPPENED IN MINNEAPOLIS IN TERMS OF THAT SORT OF DUAL RESPONSE.

PHILLIP LET ME GO TO YOU FIRST, YOU WERE ON THE GROUND.

WHAT WAS COMING ACROSS TO PEOPLE, DID THEY FEEL LIKE GREAT, GREAT, WE'VE DONE IT OR SOMETHING ELSE?

>> WELL, BRANT SWORD OF SUMMED IT UP -- SORT OF SUMMED IT UP IN WAYS, MIRRORED WHAT HAPPENED IN MINNEAPOLIS, PRETTY MUCH MIRRORED WHAT IS HAPPENING AROUND THE COUNTRY, FOLKS ARE JUBILANT ABOUT THE VERDICT ITSELF BUT ACUTELY AWARE OF THE SYSTEMIC RACISM WITHIN POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND THE LARGER QUESTION OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, WHETHER THAT WILL REMAIN INTACT ACROSS MOST POLICE JURISDICTIONS.

SO YOU HAD FOLKS WHO WERE ADDRESSING THE IMMEDIATE ISSUE OF THE -- OF THE VERDICT IN THE CHAUVIN CASE, BUT ALSO DEEPLY CONCERNED ABOUT REFORM OF SOME, OF COURSE CALLING FOR DEFUNDING THE POLICE, AND WHATEVER THAT MEANS, FOR VARIOUS PEOPLE, OTHERS CALLING FOR MORE MODERATE, IF YOU WILL, STRUCTURAL REFORM OF POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

AND YOU ALSO HAD FOLKS, FOR EXAMPLE, IN NUBIAN SQUARE BOSTON.

QUITE INTERESTING, ONE GUY WHO SAID HE HAS BEEN ARRESTED SEVERAL TIMES FOR SELLING LOOSE CIGARETTES.

HE SAID, NOW PERHAPS THEY'LL STOP METING WITH ME.

THAT'S HIS REACTION.

ANOTHER GUY WAS IN TEARS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE VERDICT, RECALLING VARIOUS ARRESTS HE HAD ENCOUNTERED AND SAID WHAT THIS MEANS FOR HIM IS PERHAPS SOME LEVEL OF RESPECT THAT MIGHT BE OF -- DEM DEMONSTRATED FOR PEOPLE LIKE HIM.

>> Crossley: XENIA, YOU WERE FEELING ANGER FOR PEECHG CONGRATULATING YOU?

EXPLAIN.

>> RIGHT.

WHAT HAS -- PEOPLE CONGRATULATING YOU?

EXPLAIN.

>> WE ARE ALL TIED TO THIS PHENOMENON OF WHITENESS AT LEAST THAT'S HOW IT RESONATES TO ME.

THERE IS A PART OF ME THAT REACTS EMOTIONALLY, IN SOME RESPECTS IS RELIEVED BUT THERE'S ALSO THIS LEVEL OF GUILT THAT I CARRY.

BECAUSE I KNOW IN SOME RESPECTS, UNCONSCIOUSLY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY, I'M CONNECTED TO THIS PHENOMENON OF WHITENESS THAT PLAYS ITSELF OUT THROUGH VIOLENCE.

AND MY RESPONSE AND I THINK PROBABLY SO THE BROADER RESPONSE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE -- WATCHING IT LIVE, OR IN PERSON, ARE REALLY EXPERIENCING THEMSELVES HEMMED BY WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE AS WHITENESS IN WHITE AMERICA AND THE RESPONSE TO THESE KINDS OF ACTIONS.

SO MY RESPONSE EMOTIONALLY WAS JUST THE RESPONSE OF SORT OF GUILT.

BUT THEN THE ANGER CAME BECAUSE I SAID THIS IS NOT A PROCESS FOR BLACK AMERICA.

THIS IS A PROCESS OF WHITE AMERICA.

WHAT IS BEING PUT ON DISPLAY IS THE PROCESS OF WHITE -- WHITE DYSFUNCTION.

AND TO CONGRATULATE ME BECAUSE WHITE DYSFUNCTION HAS BEEN PUT ON DISPLAY?

IT FEELS TO ME FAR AFIELD WITH REALLY RECKONING WHERE THE FOCUS OF OUR HEALING NEEDS TO LIE AS A COUNTRY.

>> Crossley: TANISHA, YOU SAID WHEN GEORGE FLOYD'S KILLING WAS BEING PROTESTED A YEAR AGO, THIS WAS EMBLEM ATTIC OF THE NEON THE NECK OF SO MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR, THAT WAS THE PROPER RESPONSE.

HOW ARE YOU SEEING THIS RESPONSE TO THE GUILTY VERDICTS NOW, HOW DOES THAT FIT IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT?

>> I WHICH AFFIRM WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN SAID.

CERTAINLY THERE HAS BEEN A SENSE OF RELIEF BECAUSE AS WE KNOW, THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THESE CASES THAT, ONE, NEVER MAKE TO IT A COURTROOM, LET ALONE END UP WITH A VERDICT THAT SPEAKS TO ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND SO A SENSE OF RELIEF THAT IN THIS INSTANCE, WE DO HAVE THE FORMER OFFICER BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THAT SAID, WHAT WE'RE ALSO SEEING IS A RENEWED SENSE OF URGENCY TO BRING ABOUT SYSTEMIC CHANGE, ACROSS THE SYSTEM.

ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS A NUMBER OF STATES TAKING ACTION TO BRING ABOUT POLICING REFORM.

AND THAT'S GREAT.

BUT WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS REFORM NATIONALLY, AND SO WE'VE HEARD OF COURSE NOW RENEWED CALLS FOR THE PASSING OF THE GEORGE FLOYD JUSTICE AND POLICING ACT.

AND I DO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS APPROPRIATE.

I ALSO THINK IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT FOR US TO REMEMBER THAT THE ISSUE OF SYSTEMIC RACISM GOES WELL BEYOND POLICING.

IT IMPACTS, IT REVERBERATES THROUGHOUT OUR SOCIETY AND SHOWS UP IN MANY ASPECTS OF OUR DAILY LIVES.

AND SO THIS WORK DOES INDEED CONTINUE FOR ALL OF US.

>> Crossley: AND LARRY ELLISON PEOPLE WILL LOOK AT THESE VERDICTS AND HAVE LOOKED AT THEM, THOUGHT, FIRST STEP TOWARDS POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY, AND REFORM THAT TANISHA HAS MENTIONED AND OTHERS HAVE MENTIONED, YOU'RE MAKING A POINT THAT IT'S HARD TO REFORM BIEFS BIASES, AND YOU'RE WORRIED THAT IN A FOO WEEKS PEOPLE WILL FORGET THE CHAUVIN VERDICTS AND GO BACK TO BUSINESS AS USUAL.

>> UNFORTUNATELY YES.

FOR PEOPLE LIKE TANISHA AND THE LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS AND OTHERS, ORGANIZATIONS, THAT IS MY BIGGEST FEAR BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DEFUND RACISM, RIGHT?

IT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE LIVE WHERE EVERY DAY.

AND I'VE ALWAYS -- EVERY DAY.

I'VE ALWAYS TOLD PEOPLE THAT MY TEN YEARS AS PRESIDENT OF MANLIO, THE RACISM WE'VE HAD TO DEAL WITH ABOUT AMONGST BLACK OFFICERS, I'M NOT SURPRISED THESE THINGS SPILL OUT TO THE PUBLIC.

IF THEY TREAT US IN THIS WAY YOU SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED THAT YOU'RE BEING FREETED THIS WAY.

WE WANT TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.

I'M GLAD PEOPLE ARE NOW PAYING ATTENTION BUT I DO FEAR THAT THE ATTENTION WILL GO.

THEY'RE LOOKING AT THIS AS A SPRINT RATHER THAN A MARATHON.

>> Crossley: IS THIS ACCOUNTABILITY REAL ACCOUNTABILITY, LARRY ELLISON, POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY, NOT ONLY YOUR FELLOW OFFICERS BUT THOSE AROUND THE COUNTRY SEE THIS IS THREE GUILTY VERDICTS FOR ONE OFFICER.

AND THAT'S A HEAVY STATEMENT BY THE JURY.

>> IT IS.

BUT THIS IS JUST ONE INSTANCE, RIGHT?

BECAUSE YOU HAD A VIDEO THAT SHOWED NINE MINUTES OF SUFFERING.

WHAT HAPPENS IF IT'S IN POLICE TIME?

WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE TIME?

WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR THAT OFFICERS SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE?

SO THIS INSTANCE, I THINK IT WAS SO OVERWHELMING BUT MR. GRAY IN NEW YORK WAS HELD TO THE GROUND AND LOST HIS LIFE OVER LOOSE CIGARETTES.

IT WASN'T OVER NINE MINUTES BUT STILL IN MY OPINION THAT WAS NOT JUSTIFIED.

>> Crossley: SO POLICE REFORM IN BOSTON, PHILLIP, THERE HAD BEEN EFFORTS MOVING, IT FEELS LIKE THERE'S A LOT MORE ENERGY AROUND THAT.

NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE CHAUVIN TRIAL BUT BECAUSE SOME OTHERS WERE GOING ON I BELIEVE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT.

WHAT'S THE SENSE NOW THAT THIS IS A KICKOFF TO A STEP TOWARDS JUSTICE?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT IT'S INSPIRATIONAL.

I THINK AS ALL OUR SPEAKERS, GUESTS HAVE SAID.

THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED IN MANY WAYS.

SOME THAT POINTED TO THE WALTER SCOTT CASE IN NORTH CAROLINA, SAYING NO, IT'S HAPPENED BEFORE.

BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER HE WASN'T CONVICTED.

HIS CONVICTION, THE POLICE OFFICER WHO KILLED WALTER SCOTT HE WAS NEVER CONVICTED.

THAT CAME ABOUT AS A JUDGE'S DECISION, HIS DISCRETION.

TALL MAYORAL CANDIDATES SO FAR ARE TALKING ABOUT POLICE REFORM, YOU HAVE OF THE MASSACHUSETTS LEGISLATURE THAT HAVE IMPLEMENTED SOME DEGREE OF REFORM.

BUT I THINK THERE IS A MAJOR DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT FOLKS ON THE GROUND WANT WHICH MORE OF -- THEY REALLY WANT TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

UNLESS THAT'S ADDRESSED, IN ITS STRUCTURAL MANIFESTATIONS, AND ITS DIRECT IMPACT ON POLICING, THEN MANY OF ON THE GROUND FEEL THIS IS PROBLEMATIC.

YOU CAN HAVE CAMERAS, YOU CAN HAVE EYEWITNESS TEFT, YOU CAN HAVE ALL TYPES OF THINGS AND NOT CHANGE THE FUNDAMENTAL MODALITIES OF POLICING.

AND SO THAT IS THE CONCERN FOR MANY ON THE GROUND.

BUT IT IS ALSO INSPIRATIONAL FOR THOSE IN POLITICS OF MAYOR -- ACTING MAYOR JANEY HAS TALKED ABOUT STRUCTURAL REFORM, AS HAVE ALL, EVERY -- ANDREA CAMPBELL, EVERY SINGLE CANDIDATE HAS TALKED ABOUT IT IN A MORE SUBSTANTIVE WAY THAN WE HAVE SO FAR SEEN.

IT IS A WAY WE ENVISAGE IT, AGAIN WHERE THE HELP OF THE MASSACHUSETTS LEGISLATURE, NOTHING CAN HAPPEN WITHOUT REAL FORM FROM THE STATE HOUSE.

>> Crossley: SO TANISHA, LET'S SPEAK UP ABOUT THE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

THAT IS AT THE HEART OF THE GEORGE FLOYD JUSTICE AND POLICING ACT WHICH AT THIS MOMENT ACTUALLY HAS SOME QUOTE BIPARTISAN DISCUSSION BETWEEN KAREN BASS ON THE DEMOCRAT SIDE AND THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

BUT THAT'S REALLY WHERE IT COMES DOWN TO AND YET TANISHA WE KNOW THAT CITIES AND TOWNS IN FACT MINNESOTA HAD TO PAY MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO THESE FAMILIES.

WHICH OF COURSE, MEANS SOMETHING WRONG HAPPENED HERE.

SO EVEN IF THE INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICER IS NOT CHARGED, THE CITY, THE TAXPAYERS ARE PAYING FOR THIS.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO I SERVED ON THE BOSTON REFORM TASK FORCE AND ALSO WAS ACTIVELY INVOLVED WITH THE LEGISLATION THAT THE POLICE REFORM LEGISLATION THAT PASSED HERE IN THE COMMONWEALTH.

AND SPECIFICALLY ON THIS ISSUE OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, THAT WAS INDEED ONE OF THE STICKING POINTS FOR US HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WITH RESPECT TO THE BILL THAT ULTIMATELY PASSED.

AND WHAT WE KNOW NOW IS THAT THAT ISSUE WAS PUNTED TO A COMMISSION.

HERE IN THE COMMONWEALTH TO FURTHER STUDY IT.

ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL, SPECIFICALLY AS IT RELATES TO QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, IT IS PART OF THE GEORGE FLOYD JUSTICE IN POLICING ACT.

THE ISSUE HERE IN MANY RESPECTS IS THAT I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE IS A COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING AMONG THE ELECTORATE AT LARGE ABOUT WHAT QUALIFIED IMMUNITY IS.

QUALIFIED IMMUNITY SERVES TO PROVIDE CIVIL PROTECTIONS ARE FROM MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGAINST PERSONAL LIABILITY, RIGHT?

AND SO IF WE HAVE SITUATIONS LIKE WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN MINNESOTA, SPECIFICALLY WITH DEREK CHAUVIN, IF WE HAVE POLICE-INVOLVED MISCONDUCT IN THIS WAY, THE REFORMS TO QUALIFIED IMMUNITY WOULD ESSENTIALLY ALLOW FOR WHAT ESSENTIALLY -- I'M SORRY, WOUD ESSENTIALLY TAKE AWAY SOME OF THE PROTECTIONS THAT THE GOVERNMENT WOULD OTHERWISE PROVIDE TO A MEMBER OF LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO WAS YOU KNOW PERFORMING HER DUTY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW.

SO THIS IS REALLY -- THIS IS NOT ABOUT GOOD POLICE OFFICERS.

THIS IN MANY RESPECTS, QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, THE REFORMS IN QUALIFIED IMMUNITY WOULD IMPACT THOSE MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO ARE ENGAGED IN WRONGDOING.

AND WE DO NEED TO SEE CHANGES THERE.

BUT AGAIN, THAT DOES CONTINUE TO BE A STICKING POINT FOR POLICE UNIONS.

BUT IT ALSO REMAINS ONE OF THE TOP ISSUES THAT ADVOCATES WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR ON THE GROUND.

>> Crossley: LARRY ELLISON WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO QUALIFIED IMMUNITY AND THE NEW COMMISSION YOU'RE A PART OF WHICH IS SEPARATE FROM WHAT TANISHA JUST REFERENCES, THERE IS POLICE REFORM KICKING OFF IN JULY JUST GETTING STARTED, THE COMMISSION YOU'RE ON REALLY FOCUSES ON TRAINING AND THE ELIMINATION OF SOME TECHNIQUES THAT WE'VE HEARD ABOUT LIKE CHOKE HOLDS AND WHATEVER TO SORT OF REDUCE THE VIOLENCE.

SO CAN WE MOVE FORWARD?

HOW CAN WE MOVE FORWARD?

AND GETTING PAST THE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY WILL THAT EVER HAPPEN FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT?

>> I'M SURE AT SOME POINT IT PROBABLY WILL HAPPEN.

MY ONLY CONCERN WITH IT IS BECAUSE OF WHERE I'VE SAT AS PRESIDENT OF MANLIO AND SAW THE SELECTIVE CHOOSING WHO THEY WOULD CHOOSE AND WHO THEY WOULDN'T, AS TANISHA MOST WE HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH MANY OF THESE CASES, WILL IT BE DEALT WITH FAIRLY AND WILL EVERYONE BE IN THE SAME POT?

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT IS THE CASE.

I HAVEN'T SEEN ENOUGH THAT MAKES ME FEEL, OKAY I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM BECAUSE I DON'T CONDUCT MYSELF IN THAT WAY.

EVEN IF I DON'T IF THERE'S A ACCUSATION I'LL BE LEFT OUT ALONE TRYING TO DEFEND MATTER, SAYING AH-HA I'M ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF MY FAMILY JUST DEFENDING WHAT TOOK PLACE.

>> Crossley: ON THE COMMISSION THAT YOU ALL HAVE BEEN SERVING, YOU HAVE JUST GOT ANNOUNCED, HAVEN'T MET OR ANYTHING, IT APPEARS THAT THE COMMISSION IS FOCUSING ON THAT TRAINING OF RESHAPING WHAT THE TRAINING LOOKS LIKE.

>> WELL, AGAIN WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT MEETING, WE'RE GOING TO BE SWORN IN ON MONDAY.

I THINK IT WILL HAVE SUBPOENA POWERS.

WHAT I LIKE ABOUT SIT IT WILL ALLOW US TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT SOME OF THESE CASES THAT ARE QUESTIONABLE, RIGHT?

HAVE A FRESH SET OF EYES ON IT.

MOST PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED AT THE RECENT UPTICK OF OFFICER PAT ROSE, TROUBLING FOR ME AS A POLICE OFFICER AS TO WHY THAT WASN'T GIVEN THE ATTENTION AND ACTUALLY DHEARMINGS SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE BACK -- DETERMINATION THAT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN PLACE THEN.

THAT WOULD SHOW SOME TRANSPARENCY TO THE PUBLIC THAT PEOPLE HADN'T GOTTEN AWAY WITH THAT AND PEOPLE COULD STILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE THINGS.

>> WAIT COULD I -- >> Crossley: SURE.

>> THERE'S ONE POINT I WANT TO MAKE.

SO THE POST COMMISSION YES IT HAS A TRAINING FOCUS BUT ONE OF THE KEY AND I THINK MOST IMPORTANT POWERS OF THAT COMMISSION RELATES TO CERTIFICATION AND DECERTIFICATION.

FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME IN MASSACHUSETTS, WE WILL HAVE A REQUIREMENT THAT MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT ARE CERTIFIED, TO DO THEIR JOB, AND IF THEY ENGAGE IN CERTAIN MISCONDUCT, THEY RUN THE RISK OF BEING DECERTIFIED, DELICENSED IF YOU WILL.

MEANING THEY CAN NO LONGER BE MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THE COMMONWEALTH.

THAT IS HUGE.

>> Crossley: OKAY.

>> THAT IS POTENTIALLY A GAME-CHANGER HERE.

>> Crossley: WOULD YOU SAY THAT'S EQUAL TO QUALIFIED IMMUNITY IN TERMS OF ITS IMPACT?

>> SO IT'S -- WE NEED BOTH BUT SURELY, HAVING REALLY THE POWER TO DECERTIFY DOES, HOPEFULLY WILL, CAUSE MANY MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT TO BE MORE MINDFUL OF THEIR COMPLIANCE WITH THE USE OF FORCE STANDARDS THAT ARE SET FORTH BY THE COMMISSION.

>> CAN I QUICKLY SAY.

>> Crossley: SURE.

>> IN THE SHORT TERM I THINK TANISHA IS CORRECT THAT PEOPLE WILL START TO REALIZE THAT THEIR BEHAVIOR IS BEING SCRUTINIZED A LOT MORE CLOSER THAN IT WAS IN THE PAST.

>> Crossley: GO AHEAD XENIA.

>> YOU WERE ABOUT TO ASK ME A QUESTION AND I DEFINITELY WANTED TO FOLLOW UP WITH WHAT TANISHA AROUND LARRY WERE SAYING.

THE IDEA ON THE PUBLIC STAGE IT'S A PUBLIC FLAY RIGHT AND THESE ARE -- DISPLAY RIGHT AND PUBLIC PROCESSES.

I THINK PEOPLE THINK OF RACISM AS A SOCIAL ACT BUT THIS IS A CONSTRUCT THAT OCCURS PUBLICLY AND SOCIALLY.

WHEN YOU SEE REFORMS THAT ARE HAPPENING POTENTIALLY IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OR IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THOSE ARE PUBLIC DECISIONS AND PUBLIC CHANGES THAT THEN POTENTIALLY CHANGE THE PUBLIC DISCOURSE AROUND THESE ACTIONS THAT WE FEEL ARE IMPACTED BY ON A SOCIAL LEVEL.

SO THEY DO HAVE HUGE MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES.

I LIKE TO SAY YOU KNOW MENTAL WELLNESS IS A PART OF RACIAL JUSTICE.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE START.

>> Crossley: UH-HUH.

AND LARRY JUST THIS QUESTION, JUST TRYING TO GAUGE POLICE RESPONSE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT BLACK OFFICERS AS THEY OFTEN DO, HAVE A DUAL RESPONSE TO A DEREK CHAUVIN VERDICT.

AM I READING THAT RIGHT?

>> WELL, YOU ARE BUT I THINK A LOT OF US TO BE HONEST WITH YOU CALLIE WE DON'T TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THAT RIGHT?

I WAS A BLACK MAN BEFORE I BECAME A POLICE OFFICER.

AND I HAVE TO DEAL WITH A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT BLACK MEN, BLACK PEOPLE IN GENERAL HAVE TO DEAL WITH AND THAT'S NEVER FORGOTTEN.

IT'S NOT JUST IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, HEALTH DISPARITIES, LODGING, RIGHT NOW POLICING IS IN THE FOREFRONT.

BUT IF YOU LOOK IN MOST PROFESSIONS YOU MAY NOT FIND ANYTHING DIFFERENT, MAYBE NOT THE VIOLENCE OR THE DEATH THAT COMES FROM A POLICE INVOLVED SHOOTING BUT YOU WON'T SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING THEY ARE TREATED FAIRLY BEING A BLACK PERSON.

IT'S EXHAUSTING BEING BLACK IN AMERICA.

TRY BEING A BLACK POLICE OFFICER.

>> Crossley: XENIA, LET ME JUST SAY, REMEMBER THIS IS HAPPENING IN THE CONTEXT OF THESE OTHER KILLINGS.

SO IT SEEMS LIKE WE COULDN'T JUST HAVE A MOMENT TO ACTUALLY RESPOND TO WHAT THE MEANING OF THE CHAUVIN VERDICTS.

>> EXACTLY, EXACTLY.

AND YOU KNOW THE TRUTH IS WE DON'T HAVE A MINUTE TO RESPOND TO ALL OF THE VERDICTS THAT ARE HAPPENING AROUND US.

THE INSTANCES THAT GO PUBLICIZED AND THOSE THAT DON'T.

AS BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA WE ARE CONSTANTLY BEING INUNDATE WEDNESDAY EITHER DIRECT TRAUMA OR VICARIOUS TRAUMA OF THE RACIST SYSTEMS AND SOCIALIZATIONS THAT OCCUR AND GO UNTAPPED AND UNCHECKED AROUND US.

SO OUR HEART DISEASE, OUR DIABETES, OBESITY, ANXIETY, DEPRESSIONS, ALL COME AS CONSEQUENCES TO LIVING IN A RACIST SYSTEM AND A CESSPOOL THAT CONTINUES TO GO UNTREATED.

>> Crossley: PHILLIP YOU HAVE 30 SECONDS TO TELL ME HOW MUCH MORE PROTESTING WILL BE HAPPENING CONNECTED TO CHAUVIN AND GOING FORWARD.

>> CONNECTED TO CHAUVIN PROBABLY NOT MUCH.

CONNECTED TO CONCERNS ABOUT SOCIAL JUSTICE, QUITE A BIT.

FOLKS WHO ARE PROTESTING TO REOPEN THE TERNS COLEMAN CASE TERRENCE COLEMAN CASE THE MENTALLY ILL PERSON SHOT TO DEATH IN BOSTON.

CASES LIKE THE D.J.MENNARY CASE AND URY STAMPS CASE IN FRAMINGHAM.

KRESS IT'S NOT OVER?

>> IT'S NOT OVER.

>> Crossley: TANISHA LAST WORD FOR YOU.

>> THIS IS A TIME TO RECOMMIT TO OUR EFFORTS TO BRING ABOUT GREATER RACIAL EQUITY BE ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

THIS CAN'T BE SOLELY ABOUT POLICING.

THIS MUST BE ABOUT ALL ASPECTS OF QUALITY OF LIFE, EDUCATION, ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, HEALTH CARE.

WE HAVE TO, IN THIS MOMENT, CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO PROTEST.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO SEEK POLICY SOLUTIONS TO -- THAT TACKLE SYSTEMIC RACISM.

>> Crossley: THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING ME.

OBVIOUSLY THIS CONVERSATION IS GOING TO CONTINUE.

BUT THAT'S THE END OF OUR BROADCAST, THE END OF OUR SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

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