(upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.

- This week on "UnSpun," the politics of power.

If you're only focusing on Republicans and Democrats, you're missing what's behind the scenes, the often ignored turf battles between the executive branch and the legislative branch.

So what are the major power struggles all about?

That's my top five this week.

Plus I'll talk with former North Carolina Governor, Mike Easley, about the turf battles we both saw, in both parties, and a long overdue thank you to a lawmaker who overcame the power struggle between Charlotte and Raleigh to finally accomplish something great for the Charlotte region.

That's all coming up on "UnSpun."

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know, I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was Governor and Mayor, I played the spin game, I was played by the spin game.

But aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in, here on "UnSpun."

(upbeat music) Good evening, I'm Pat McCroy and welcome to "UnSpun," a show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

There's an old saying that power attracts the worst of us and corrupts the best of us.

In politics, especially, the balance of power often isn't balanced at all.

In Washington, every major issue, immigration, education, transportation, crime, taxes, you name it, the President battles Congress over control, too often forcing the courts to step in.

The constitution calls this separation of powers, I call it hunger for power at the highest level.

Right now in DC, immigration is at the center of this fight.

Congress has tried and failed over and over to pass an immigration bill.

So President Trump used executive orders to strengthen border security and then President Biden reversed them with his own executive orders.

And in both cases, Congress complained that neither president was following the Constitution.

And don't get me started about what happens at the state level, in Raleigh and Columbia.

When I was Governor, I got played by lawmakers in both parties who wanted to weaken the power of the Governor's office and strengthen their own power.

For many politicians, getting control and keeping control outweighs everything else, nevermind about what's right or what's fair, or most important, what the Constitution allows.

Is this what the founders had in mind when they wrote our Constitution?

Because it's today's political reality, it's reality that I experienced firsthand after I was elected.

And the same reality that every Governor faces, Republican or Democrat.

Joining us now on "UnSpun," is my friend and former Governor Mike Easley.

Mike, it's great to have you on.

There's a history of power struggles, not just between the President of the United States and the US Congress, but even here in North Carolina, there are constant power struggles regarding who has control of making decisions.

Right here in North Carolina, among almost every Governor, including you, Mike, when you were Governor for two terms, you had some power struggles, even with your own Democratically controlled legislature.

Tell me about the first power struggle you had and what was the result of that?

- Yeah, well, power struggles, that's politics.

Everybody thinks they have the right idea and when they do, they get impatient, they want to get something accomplished, do it now, it is so ordered, that kind of thing.

So the more power they can get, the more likely it is they can do that, and hopefully they do it toward the constituents.

So in 2002, when they were putting out the budget from the legislature, they talked to me about changing the appointments so that the House got five of each commission, the Senate got five and the Governor got five.

So that gave them two thirds and it was no way I could control the commission and do my job, 'cause it's the Governor's job, it's the Governor's duty to see that the laws are executed.

So I told 'em, I couldn't agree to that, and they said they wouldn't do it, and then lo and behold it was last thing they did.

So I vetoed it.

I did not say in the veto that it had to do with the power of the legislature versus the executive.

Basically they appointed a couple of guys that were dead, and so I could veto it in that regard.

But it was a constant battle throughout my eight years as Governor.

I didn't mind giving the legislature one or two because it brought in more information.

But yeah, we have to maintain control because that's our duty, that's what we are assigned to do.

- And in fact, many of these commissions report up through the secretaries, the cabinet, which you're responsible for.

So it'd be very awkward if they are appointed by the legislature, they're gonna think they need to report to the legislature and the heck with what the cabinet secretary or Governor wants.

So who's in control at that point in time?

- Well, that's exactly right.

I mean, everything gets mixed up, especially in a time of crisis.

You look at some of these hurricanes that you and I had to deal with, and all of a sudden we have to get the Highway Patrol in a particular position, the National Guard in a particular position, we have assignments for the Department of Corrections, we had what, 1500 inmates would go out and cut trees, those types of things, and you have to be able control all of that.

And if you have to wait for the legislature and the membership to get to town and make a decision as to who does what, then it gets real screwy.

Like you remember after 9/11 - Yeah, I was mayor of Charlotte.

- You were mayor, right, you called me and said, "Look, it looks like they attacking tall buildings where there's a financial center.

I want you to get me more help up here."

Well, that was occurring all over the state, so there has to be one person in charge.

If the legislature was in charge, their representative would want everything in their district.

And it would be real confusing, especially for like the Department of Transportation, the DOT board, would not know where to where to put their assets and resources.

So that's the reason the executive is assigned that duty.

Not that suggestion, not that opportunity, but it is the sole duty of the Governor to make sure the laws are faithfully executed, that's all the Governor has to do.

- In fact, I remember that call between you and me and I was having the Bank of America building, and at the time, First Union Building, being evacuated because they thought they were gonna be attacked.

And then I remember you telling me, well, I even have farmers who think they're gonna be attacked out in the most rural areas.

So everyone had logical reasons why they think they were gonna be attacked and you were under pressure to handle all the constituents of North Carolina.

- Yeah, and we are the only ones who had access to the chatter, as they say, from the most secure, classified information.

And there was some chatter about spraying all of the crops, so there's no food supply.

- That's exactly right.

- Things like that, - I remember you telling me.

- So we had to take all that into consideration.

- Well then when I became Governor, many years later, in 2012, I had a Republican legislature challenge my authority regarding appointments to an environmental board.

And it wasn't even in legislation that I could veto because they had the power to override my veto.

So I took him to the courts, to the Supreme Court, and that was called McCrory vs. Berger, Phil Berger, then the Senate Majority Leader.

And so I had the exact same problem, so it proved it's not really a partisan issue, it's more about power between the legislature and the executive branch.

- Yeah, and that's politics.

And I will point out, Senator Berger was not the culprit as much, that's the way you required to file that particular lawsuit, and we're all glad you did and you won it.

And that we thought answered the question and there wouldn't be any more attempts at it.

But as you noted last year, the legislature now is trying to take almost all of the significant powers of the Governor.

And you, thank you, and Governor Martin, Governor Perdue, Governor Hunt, and I are all doing a friend of the court brief, showing the court how important it is that the Governor maintain these duties that are given to the Governor's office under the Constitution.

And what they are suggesting in their lawsuit is that anybody in the executive branch, whether it be the Commissioner of Agriculture, Treasurer, Attorney General, Superintendent of Education, can do these things, not just the Governor.

And so if they give a couple of appointments to them and some to the Governor, they can keep the rest and everything's okay, and that's just not the way the Constitution reads.

- I think it's quite unique in North Carolina history, now on two different occasions, we've had a bipartisan group of former Governors, starting with Governor Hunt and Martin, yourself and Perdue and myself, we actually met in Raleigh to fight a potential constitutional amendment to say this is not right for the future of North Carolina, to give so much power to the state legislature versus the Governor.

Because right now, frankly, the Governor's position is quite weak as it is.

And you do need a Governor to be able to deal with crisis and be able to direct their cabinet secretaries, and that was quite unique in our history.

- It was, and I remember us all showing up at the Capitol and you gave a fiery speech, as you usually do.

But that was the attempt to appoint the judges.

They wanted to appoint the judges, decide where they work, how much to get paid, where they're assigned, and also take over the Board of Elections, and it also included the Board of Ethics at that time.

And you might recall it, it removed the unaffiliated seat, and it had four Republican, four Democrats, so everything was gonna end up in gridlock, and it was a constitutional amendment, the people would have to approve it, and the people voted it down.

Now they have come back and now have tried to do it this year by legislation, and that's what the Supreme Court has to hear.

They couldn't do it by constitutional amendment because we fought that amendment and the people voted against it.

So now they're trying to do it just within their own chambers.

And I don't think you can change the constitution by just a general assembly statute.

And that's what we're gonna be fighting about in this particular brief.

- And at this point in time, as a former Republican Governor, I'm supporting Governor Cooper in protecting not only his powers, but the powers of all future Governors, regardless whether they're Republican or Democrat.

So I got a feeling we're gonna be back together again as former Governors in Raleigh in the near future to continue to respect the separation of powers.

- Yeah, we'll count on you to buy lunch this time.

You're right, and it is not that we are protecting a particular Governor or a particular party, we're protecting the office, because under duties, it says specifically the Governor has the responsibility for faithful execution of the laws.

The legislature makes the laws, but the Governor has to carry 'em out.

Doesn't say the Council of State or Department of Ag, or the Treasurer or Commissioner of Labor, it specifically states the Governor.

And we have to make sure the court abides by that and the legislature does as well.

- Well Governor, I appreciate you being on the show and I guarantee you when we get together, I'll have you buy the lunch, God bless you buddy.

- Thank you.

- Next PBS Charlotte's Amy Burkett takes "Unspun" on the street, to hear your thoughts on the politics of power.

- Thanks Pat.

As partisan divides deepen, the quest for political power in both state Capitols and our nation's Capitol remains fiercely contested.

However, when I sat down with folks in uptown Charlotte's market at seventh, I actually found some common ground.

- Well, I think we need both, I think it's a great conversation piece.

Some states I think do need to decide what's best for them and works best for them.

But the national government, at the federal level, we do need somebody overseeing and paying attention to each and every state just to make sure that we all share the same common sense.

And things that are working in your state may not be working in mine, but at a federal level, we do need somebody to supervise that and watch over that.

- How do we feel about common sense these days?

Sometimes it seems like we might be missing out on common sense, Sharod, what do you think?

- It does seem like we're missing out a lot of common sense.

If you see some of the decisions that they're making with migrants and immigrants and all that stuff, a lot of the decisions seem not to be more geared towards the citizens that are here.

And think about people that are outside where we have so many problems that's going on here that they could focus on, besides giving money to everyone else that's coming from the outside, I think it should be more based on us first than other people from coming from other places.

- Of course, when you're in different states, everything is different.

So even though there should be something on the federal level, to me it's more important on the state level, because the federal just knows the overall umbrella and not exactly what's going on in that specific state.

And I feel like if the states have their own specific thing going on for their selves, it's easier for us to come together and figure out what's best to do for that specific state.

And as far as common sense, if we all could come together and figure out one thing and not argue and go back and forth all the time about subjects that doesn't seem like it should be that big of an issue, then it'll be a lot easier to just work together to come up with a greater good, anyway.

- Pat, it was certainly refreshing to find strangers who actually agreed on something in politics.

- Thanks Amy.

So what do you think about the issue?

Email us your thoughts on the political power struggles between state and national leaders to unspun@wtvi.org.

(upbeat music) Alright, tonight we're gonna have a little bit of fun.

On our top five countdown, we're talking about the top five power struggles between the executive and legislative branches, both in Washington DC and in Raleigh, North Carolina.

So let's start out with number five.

Number five, legislative oversight of the executive branch.

Well, let me tell you a little secret about how Governors and the President, regardless of your political affiliation, feel about legislative oversight.

The cabinet secretaries hate it because they go to these hearings, whether it be in Raleigh or in Washington, and they get lectured.

And in fact, they don't even get asked questions, they get lectured to during their five minutes, and it seems to be all for the cameras.

But the legislative branch wants this, they want this exposure, they want to show their constituency that they're overseeing the executive branch and doing their job, it's called the separation of powers through oversight.

Number four, impeachment.

Well, President Andrew Johnson, President Clinton, President Trump, we've now had one, two, three, four, five, four to five impeachments.

And now we just had one recently for the Secretary of Homeland Security.

It's getting very political and there's this fight between the executive branch and the legislative branch.

The presidents are saying, wait a minute, this is getting political, it has nothing to do with the case of law.

Very important issue in our constitution.

Number three, appointment powers.

Basically, appointment powers, really, the conflict is occurring more in states, especially the state of North Carolina, because the legislature wants to take away as many appointment powers that the Governor currently has.

This has happened for the last 30 years as Governor Easley even talked about.

In fact, the Board of Governors in the State of North Carolina that run the whole university system, guess how many appointments the Governor gets on the Board of Governors, zero.

That's the big conflict you have about power in Raleigh between the Governor and between the legislature.

Let's go to the next one.

Number two, executive orders, executive orders, boy, this is controversial, both in Washington and in Raleigh.

In fact, recently during COVID, Governor Cooper had a lot of executive orders to help protect the citizens from COVID.

But the small bar owners are now going, wait a minute, Governor, you had too much power as Governor in closing down the small bars.

And just recently, the courts have ruled in the bar's favor because they said, you didn't close the breweries, but you closed the bars, that had too much power for one branch of government.

And the legislature should have been involved in some of those long-term policy decisions.

Very interesting, constant struggles between the executive branch and the legislative branch in both Raleigh and Washington on executive powers.

It's a nonpartisan issue, it's a power issue between the two branches of government.

And number one, probably the most controversial in our nation's history, and it continues to be controversial, and that is any military interventions by the President of the United States because our constitution basically says that Congress must approve any war.

But we have what we call skirmishes, including in Korea, including in Vietnam, including in Iraq.

And the question is, at what point in time does Congress need to be advised about any military action?

And any time a president takes military actions as you're seeing right now throughout the world, Congress goes, wait a minute, we need to have say so on this power of the presidency.

And in North Carolina, even with the Guard, wonder if Governor Cooper decides and sends the National Guard, say to the Mexican border, to help with illegal immigration, at what point did the legislature have a right to have input on this issue?

This is all about power struggles and the founders anticipated some of this and sometimes the courts have to step in.

(upbeat music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me for "UnSpun One-On-One."

- You know the drill, the questions are unscripted, they come from this week's headlines, I ask 'em, you answer 'em, you get about one minute each to answer each question.

You ready for this?

- I'm ready, I'm ready for you.

- All right.

well the first question is actually a follow up from last week when I asked you about the Republican VP, but we ran out of time before you could answer.

So Mr. Trump and his advisors, what are they thinking?

What are they looking at as they go down that long list of possibilities?

- Well, lemme tell you what's happening behind the scenes with the advisor and maybe former President Trump doesn't even realize it's happening.

But I guarantee you they're doing focus groups and surveys on who would be the best vice presidential candidate to get President Trump over the finish line in the general election, the general election, not the primaries.

And these focus groups are amazing to watch.

And so they're gonna try out everyone, from Nikki Haley, who my instincts say would be the smartest move, but they have other people.

J.D.

Vance from Ohio is starting to climb up the ladder.

He was in Mar-a-Lago just in the past week at a fundraiser for a Super PAC with a lot of high tech people.

He's young and he has a big connection with California, New York, high tech people, and they've got a great one-on-one relationship.

But there are gonna be a lot of names between now and the time he makes the decision.

The big thing will be when will he make the decision?

He needs someone to get on the campaign trail for him while he's in trial in New York City.

- Hmm, good point.

You mentioned Nikki Haley, I got an email that says she's joining a think tank based in New York.

When an ex-candidate or an ex-politician joins a think tank, what does that usually mean about what's next?

- It's kind of purgatory.

You sit on the side, you sit on the sidelines and you go, okay, how long do I have to wait and can I be the next presidential candidate?

The big factor will be if Trump wins, she'd probably want to be in the picture again.

But if he loses, Nikki Haley will be a very viable candidate for the future.

And the question for her is, where's the best waiting ground to stay on the sideline but still be relevant?

A think tank will pay her a salary, she'll be on the speaking circuit, she'll probably go on TV, she'll stay as relevant as you can without holding office.

It's a very, very tough balance, especially because there'll be people that we haven't even heard of today, that will be the new up and comer three years from now.

- Well this year we've got two candidates, Mr. Biden, Mr. Trump, both who go off script pretty often.

When a candidate goes off script, how difficult is it for the advisors to do the damage control?

- Oh, the advisors hate it, the advisors hated it when I went off script, when I was Governor, and I always went off script.

They'd give me a speech, you know, a big speech like this, and I'd go, thank you, and I just followed the outline in my mind because I felt like I knew the topic better than my advisor.

Sometimes I was right, and sometimes there was political payback for making that mistake.

And when you're President or Governor or Mayor, you sometimes think you're smarter than your staff and usually you are, but sometimes you need to really listen to your staff.

- Yeah, Governor Cooper is revealing his new budget.

When a Governor reveals a budget, but the legislature holds the purse strings, does it really make a difference?

- It's a PR move by the Governor to do, it's a very important role of the Governor.

I've spent hours upon hours, going down every line that's over $200,000 in a 21, 22 billion dollar budget.

I took it very seriously, but the Republican legislature took my budget very seriously and I'd get about 80% of it.

With Governor Cooper, it's more of a PR signal to his base, I'm fighting for you on these issues, then the Republican legislature says, throws it away and starts from scratch in their committee hearings.

- If you're a driver, you've seen gas prices edge up a little bit this week to what, some 3.49, 3.50 a gallon, how much is that gonna be a political issue in the fall?

Or have we all gotten used to it by now?

- No, we're not getting used to it and the surveys are showing that inflation in the economy will be the number one issue for the presidential race.

And the timing couldn't be worse for President Biden.

And this is at a time when Trump will try to get away from the trials, talk about inflation and blame everything on President Biden, this is the blame game of the economy.

- Hey, our final question is the one we talked about a little bit ahead of time, full disclosure.

You've met a lot of celebrities as Mayor, as Governor, but talk about the celebrity who's not a politician who might make a really good politician.

- Well, actually I'm gonna mention a celebrity that was a politician for two years, Clint Eastwood.

- Really?

- I got to meet him when he came to film, when he was directing the plane on the Hudson.

And he came out to our airport and did a major thing with the hangar with all the people who survived that miracle on the Hudson.

And I asked Clint, having barbecue with him at the airport, I said, "Tell me why did you run for mayor?"

He says, "Well, city council was a four year term and I only wanted to serve two years.

And the mayor's office was a two year term."

Because he had one problem he wanted to solve in Carmel, California, and he did it and then he got the heck out.

- Okay, we have a clip of Clint Eastwood, imagine you're a city council member and your mayor opposes you and you look him in the eye and here's what he says.

- Go ahead, make my day.

- Gonna say that to the legislature, to the city council.

- All the time.

But when they had the super majority, they'D go, it doesn't matter.

And that's probably how Cooper feels right now, that's how times I felt when you're going against a super majority, unlike Washington DC, where there's a one or two vote majority in the House, same thing in the Senate, and we've got election coming up.

Don't make a threat, you can't follow through on.

- All right, get ready for next week's questions for now, this week's questions are over though, and thanks for doing a great job this week on "UnSpun One-On-One."

(upbeat music) - To wrap up our show each week we've got a segment we're calling Backspin, where we'll give thanks to good public servants for the things they've done in the past.

The South End and NoDa are a lot different today than they were 15 years ago, and it's all because of light rail.

Turning these once blighted areas of Charlotte into great places to live, work, and play, especially for the under 30 crowd.

But the fact is that there wouldn't be any light rail in the South End, or NoDa, not without the courage of one Republican state representative who convinced a very reluctant state legislature to allow Charlotte voters a referendum on a half cent sales tax and to have the state pay for 25% of the construction cost.

That state representative's name is Ed McMahan.

When no one gave us a chance to get any support in Raleigh, Ed, when I asked him, said, "Okay, I'll try."

And he did more than that, he got Democrats like Jim Black and Fountain Odom and Governor Mike Easley to support Charlotte's effort, and Republicans like Lyons Gray from Winston-Salem, to form a bipartisan coalition to get the votes we needed to win.

With his hard work, Ed changed Charlotte forever, not just in transportation, but also jobs and entertainment and quality of life.

Ed McMahan, you never got the thanks you deserved and you never, never had anything named after you.

But I want to give you an "UnSpun" thank you for making a difference that will last generationS.

Well, that does it for tonight's episode of "UnSpun".

Thanks for joining us and I hope you'll come back next week as we explore the politics of actually trying to solve problems in Washington, that's our next "UnSpun," where we'll tell you what politicians are thinking, but not necessarily saying, goodnight folks.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.

(upbeat music)