>> CATHY: FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP APPEARED IN A WASHINGTON, D.C. FEDERAL COURTROOM THURSDAY AND PLED NOT GUILTY TO CHARGES THAT HE TRIED TO OVERTURN THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION RESULTS.

MEANWHILE, ON TUESDAY, THE FIRST NEW YORK TIMES/SIENNA POLL IN THE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL RACE SHOWED TRUMP IN A VIRTUAL TIE WITH CURRENT PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN.

HERE TO HELP US SORT THIS ALL OUT, DAVID SCHULTZ TEACHES POLITICAL SCIENCE STUDENTS AT HAMLINE UNIVERSITY, AS WELL AS LAW STUDENTS AT THE U OF M. THE U OF M'S HUMPHREY SCHOOL IS WHERE LARRY JACOBS TEACHES.

PROFESSOR JACOBS, THIS THIRD INDICTMENT IS THE MOST SERIOUS OF THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN HANDED DOWN AGAINST THE FORMER PRESIDENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S DEFENSE?

>> YOU KNOW, IN DEFENSE -- IF YOU WERE A LAWYER AND YOU WERE GOING TO BECOME A DEFENSE ATTORNEY, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF STRATEGIES.

ONE IS CALLED DISTRACTION.

IT'S LIKE LOOK OVER HERE AND THE DISTRACTION STRATEGY IS, REPUBLICANS ARE ARGUING, THIS IS A FREE SPEECH ISSUE.

I DON'T READ IT THAT WAY AT ALL.

I THINK IT'S A VERY SIMPLE CASE OF DONALD TRUMP TRYING TO TAMPER REQUEST AND QUITE FRAUDULENT ELECTIONORS WHO WOULD BEING TO WASHINGTON AND CLAIM TO BE REFLECTING STATE -- AND THEN DONALD TRUMP'S REPEATED EFFORTS TO PRESSURE THE VICE PRESIDENT PENCE TO ENGAGE IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITY AND REFUSING TO COUNT AND CERTIFY THE BALLOTS ON JANUARY 6th.

SO THIS WAS -- THAT'S THE CORE OF THE CASE AND I THINK THE REPUBLICAN TALKING POINTS ARE TRYING TO MOVE AWAY FROM IT.

IT LOOKS LIKE A PRETTY DEVASTATING AND PRETTY CLEAR CASE.

>> Cathy: YOU WERE SHAKING YOUR HEAD NO IN TERMS OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT DEFENSE.

>> NO, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, I AGREE WITH LARRY, IF YOU READS THE 45-TEENAGE INDICTMENT, NOT A SINGLE THING REFERRED TO THE SPEECH OR ANYTHING THAT HE DID ON JANUARY 6th AND NOTHING AT ALL TALKS ABOUT, LET US SAY, ANY ADVOCACY HE MADE.

IN FACT, THE CRIMINAL COMPLAINT GOES OUT OF THE WAY TO SAY THAT AFTER HE KNEW, AFTER HE WAS REPEATEDLY TOLD THAT HE HAD LOST THE ELECTION AND HE ACTUALLY AT SOME POINT ACKNOWLEDGES IT, HE NOW TALKS ABOUT HOW HE TAKES ACTION TO TRY TO BASICALLY OVERTURN THE ELECTION.

ACTION IS NOT PROTECTED UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

IN A CASE LIKE THIS, IN YOU LOOK AT THE CHARGES HERE, THEY ARE INCREDIBLY SERIOUS.

THIS IS BASICALLY ATTEMPTING TO OVERTHROW A DEMOCRATLY ELECTED ELECTION.

IT DOESN'T GET ANY MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT.

ONE OF MY STUDENTS SAID TO ME, WHY ISN'T THIS TREASON?

IT'S BORDERLINE ON THE CHARGES HERE OF TREASON.

>> Eric: IS THERE A CHANCE OF A PLEA BARGAIN OR CONSOLIDATION OF THE CASES?

ON CALENDAR, HE'S A CANDIDATE FOR REELECTION, HOW WILL THIS FIT INTO THE CALENDAR?

>> IN TERMS OF, IS THERE A CHANCE, YEAH, THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S LIKELY.

IN TERMS OF THE CALENDAR, THIS IS THE CALENDAR, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE THAN A YEAR OF VERY SERIOUS COURT CASES AND IN MY VIEW, WE'VE HAD TWO THREATS TO OUR DEMOCRACY.

FIRST WAS IN JANUARY 6th, THE NEXT WILL BE COMING.

RIGHT NOW WE'RE ABSORBED WITH THE DETAILS OF THE CASE BUT AS WE MOVE INTO THE REPUBLICAN DEBATES AND THE PRIMARIES AND CAUCUS, WE'RE GOING TO SEE A FULL-ON, ALMOST UNIFIED ATTACK ON OUR JUDICIAL SYSTEM, WHICH DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID HAS BEEN WEAPONIZED AGAINST HIM.

SO THIS IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT THREAT TO THE RULE OF LAW AND THAT WE'VE ALL TAKEN FOR GRANTED.

>> IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY DIFFICULT TO ONSOLIDATE THE CASES BECAUSE WE'RE LOOKING AT VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES, YOU KNOW, ONE IS IN NEW YORK, WHICH IS BUSINESS FRAUDS.

WE HAVE THE FLORIDA ONE WHICH IS ABOUT ILLEGALLY OBTAINING GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS.

THIS IS ABOUT TRYING TO OVERTURN AN ELECTION, AND THEN MOST OF US ARE BETTING, BEFORE THE END OF THE MONTH, ANOTHER INDICTMENT, YOU KNOW, IN FULTON COUNTY.

THE FACT PATTERNS ARE SO DIFFERENT AND THE ISSUES SO DIFFERENT, YOU REALLY CAN'T CONSOLIDATE THEM.

THE OTHER THING I WAS GOING TO MENTION, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CALENDAR.

THINK ABOUT HOW HE'S GOT TO PARSE HIS TIME BETWEEN COURT APPEARANCES VERSUS CAMPAIGNING AND I THINK I SAW SOMETHING RECENTLY THAT SAID HE'S BLOWN THROUGH, WHAT, $43 MILLAR IN CAMPAIGN FUNDS THAT ARE GOING INTO COURT EXPENSES AT THIS POINT.

HE'S DRAINING HIS CAMPAIGN TO PAY FOR HIS LEGAL DEFENSE.

>> Eric: MOST OF THE OTHER REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT HAVE RUSHED TO HIS DEFENSE, IN THIS CASE, IS THAT A FRUITFUL STRATEGY FOR KNOCKING HIM OFF OR -- >> NO, I THINK THIS IS JUST A REALITY.

REMEMBER LIZ CHENEY?

AND THEN WE SEE MIKE PERSONS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DEFY DONALD TRUMP, GIVEN THE STRENGTH OF HIS SUPPORT, AND THE FEAR VENCY OF HIS REPORT, AMONG THE PRIMARY VOTERS, IT'S ABOUT SURVIVAL.

SO I THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE A UNIFIED FRONT.

THAT'S ONE OF MY CONCERNS ABOUT THE SECONDS THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY TO HAVE REPUBLICAN PARTY'S MAIN CANDIDATES FOR PRESIDENT UNIFYING AN ATTACK ON OUR LEGAL SYSTEM, THAT SHOULD NOT BE A PARTISAN ISSUE.

IT SHOULD BE -- WE SHOULD MOVE PAST IT AND I THINK THIS IS SERIOUS ISSUE.

>> Eric: BUT WITH THE HUNTER BIDEN SITUATION SEPARATELY, AREN'T A LOT OF VOTERS GOING TO SAY HEY'RE ALL CROOKED AND -- >> THIS IS THE INTERESTING QUESTION NOW, TO WHAT EXTENT ARE MULTIPLE TRUMP INDICTMENTS AND MULL HIM PLACES NOW GETTING TO BE BACKGROUND NOISE FOR MANY PEOPLE AND NOW THROW SORT OF THE HUNTER BIDEN STUFF IN, YOU SORT OF WONDER AT SOME POINT, ARE PEOPLE GOING TO KIND OF GLAZE OVER AND JUST SORT OF SAY, I'M TRYING TO THINK OF HE RIGHT ANALOGY HERE.

IS THIS HATFIELD VERSUS McCOYS, IS THIS, WHAT, THE OSBORNS VERSUS THE KARDASHIANS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, YOU SEE WHAT I'M GETTING AT BUT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT'S STARTING TO BLUR IN TERMS OF WE'VE GOT TWO REALLY FLAWED CANDIDATES IN FLAWED FAMILIES BUT I GOT TO WORRY ABOUT OTHER STUFF.

>> Cathy: SO THAT'S THIS POLL, WHICH I KNOW YOU SAW, BOTH BIDEN-TRUMP ARE NECK AND NECK.

WHEN IT COMES TO, YOU KNOW, WORRIES ABOUT THE CANDIDATES, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF DEAN PHILLIPS POSSIBLY THINKING ABOUT CHALLENGING JOE BIDEN?

>> I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECTS NOR CONGRESSMAN PHILLIPS, I'VE KNOWN HIM FOR QUITE A WHILE.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS.

YOU KNOW, THE RIMARY VOTERS TEND TO BE THE MOST LIBERAL AND ESPECIALLY THE MOST CONSERVATIVE.

THIS IS NOT DEAN PHILLIPS' PLACE.

HE IS A DEAL-MAKER, WILLING TO WORK ACROSS THE AISLE.

THERE IS NOT A PATH FOR HIM IN THE PRIMARIES SO YOU WONDER, IS THIS ACTUALLY HELPFUL OR IS THIS ABOUT DEAN PHILLIPS BUILDING UP HIS RESUMÉ TO ENHANCE HIS POSITION IN CONGRESS OR PERHAPS POSITION HIMSELF IF THERE WERE AN OWNING FOR U.S. SENATE.

I DON'T THINK THIS MAKES POLITICAL SENSE.

I'M NOT SURE WHY HE'S DOING IT.

>> Eric: DON'T THINKING THE OTHER DEMOCRATS INCLUDING DEAN PHILLIPS ARE PREPARING FOR KIND OF A JUST IN CASE CAMPAIGN?

>> I THINK THEY ARE BUT, STILL, THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE LONG SHOT IN TERMS OF HIM -- I MEAN, TOKATA PUT -- SECOND TERM, SECOND TERM MEMBER OF CONGRESS, YOU KNOW, TO BEING A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, I MEAN, IF I'M THINKING OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT THERE AHEAD OF HIM, GRETCHEN WHITMERE IN MICHIGAN, OTHER POSSIBILITIES.

I'LL PROBABLY SAY NOW FOR THE 100TH STEAM BETWEEN NOW AND NOVEMBER, 2024, NO ATTER WHAT WE THINK ABOUT THE NATIONAL POLLS, REMEMBER, IT'S THE RACE TO 270 AND IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SWING STATES, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT'S GOING TO BE ABOUT SIX TATES OR SO THAT ARE GOING TO DECIDE THE ELECTION AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS IN THE NATIONAL POLLS, I DON'T REALLY CARE: IT'S ABOUT WHAT THE POLLS ARE IN THOSE STATES?

>> Eric: SHUT?

DOWN IN SEPTEMBER?

>> PROBABLY.

>> >> Eric: HOW DOES THAT AFFECT THINGS?

>> YOU CAN SEE DONALD TRUMP PLAYING OINT, HE'S CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT THE CESS POOL IN WASHINGTON AND THE ESSENTIAL OF THE COUNTRY IS OFF IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

IT'S TODAYER FOR DONALD TRUMP'S POPULOUS CAMPAIGN.

>> Eric: IS THIS SHATTERING CONVENTIONAL POLITICAL SCIENCE WISDOM ON THIS, THIS CYCLE?

>> WE'LL SEE.

IT COULD BE, BUT IT COULD ALSO BE A CASE WHERE THERE IS A PENALTY FOR DONALD TRUMP'S BEHAVIOR AND SOME OF THE POLLS SUGGEST THAT MAYBE SIX OUT OF TEN VOTERS ARE UP FOR GRABS.

I'M REALLY QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT COULD BE LAW-BREAKING BY HIM.

IF THE ECONOMY IS IMPROVING, JOE BIDEN MATE GET A BUMP.

I THINK IT'S AN OPEN QUESTION BUT CERTAINLY WANT TO ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO TAKE POLITICAL SCIENCE COURSES.

>> Cathy: OF COURSE YOU DO.

[Laughter] >> Eric: MORE TO