(bright music) - [Announcer] This is a production of PBS Charlotte.

This week on "Unspun," our special guest is former Vice President Mike Pence from victory on election night with President Trump to defeat at the polls four years later.

We'll talk about winning the White House and then losing it and everything in between behind the scenes with a VP on politics, power, and Trump 2.0.

Plus, we'll count down the top five disagreements behind the scenes at the White House and the governor's mansion.

In today's America, welcome to the spin game.

Believe me, I know.

I'm Pat McCrory.

When I was governor and mayor, I played the spin game, I was played by the spin game, but aren't we all done being spun?

Let's take the spin out of the world we're in here on "Unspun."

Good evening, I'm Pat McCrory, and welcome to "Unspun," the show that tells you what politicians are thinking, but not saying.

You know, the beginning of the new Trump White House is a lot different than the old Trump White House with the President signing a wave of executive orders in his first few weeks and appointing loyal new cabinet members who don't question publicly what Trump is doing, but what about behind the scenes?

- The people elected me to do the job, and I'm doing it.

(crowd cheers and applauds) And we are just getting started.

- Yep, President Trump is off to a fast start, but success in politics isn't just measured by how you start, but also how you finish.

Four years in office is a long time.

Advisors come and go, political parties gain and lose power, your allies become your enemies, and sometimes, your vision gets a little blurry along the way as you hurry to get things done.

The first Trump administration didn't end well with a lost election in 2020 and the reluctant exit from the Oval Office.

But what can we learn from those who were side by side with President Trump during his first four years as president about his style of leadership, his decision-making process, and what might be coming up next from Trump 2.0?

Joining us this week to share his views on the Trump White House, then and now, is former Vice President Mike Pence.

He's also the former governor of Indiana and a former member of Congress who ran his own campaign for president in 2024.

Vice President Pence, it's an honor to have you here on "Unspun."

- Pat McCrory, great to join you.

Congratulations on "Unspun."

And, you know, I've admired you since we were both governors, you in North Carolina, me in Indiana, and appreciate your friendships.

It's good to be with you.

- Well, thank you very much.

You know, the theme of our show is to get politicians to say what they're thinking, but not necessarily saying, but this week on Twitter, you've been saying an awful lot, and the first thing you talked about on Twitter this week was Ukraine and your strong belief in what you think the policy should be in Ukraine since you and Karen visited there shortly after the war started.

Can you reiterate what you think about Ukraine and what the administration should or should not do regarding that foreign policy issue?

- Well, I welcome the news from Saudi Arabia in headlines this week that Ukraine and the United States have reached an agreement that will allow military aid to continue to flow to the Ukrainian military from the United States that will continue with intelligence sharing, and they've agreed to a ceasefire.

Now we'll just see what Vladimir Putin is willing to do.

I mean, look, my view of this has never changed, and that is that now more than three years ago.

Vladimir Putin launched an unprovoked and brutal invasion on Ukraine.

That's cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

And I think it's been absolutely imperative that the United States and all of our Western allies have given the Ukrainian military what they need to defend their nation and defend their sovereignty.

I believe it's the right thing to do when you see, as I did firsthand, the aftermath of the barbarism of the Russian military.

They literally, in the early days of the invasion, were shelling civilian areas, which they've continued to do, but more than that, literally gunning down civilians in the streets.

I visited the site of what had been a mass grave on my visit to Ukraine in 2023.

And I think it's right that we are there.

We're the leader of the free world, we ought to be marshaling support, but I also believe, Pat, having met Vladimir Putin, having studied Russia's ambitions for many years in various capacities, I have no doubt that if Vladimir Putin overruns Ukraine, it'll just be a matter of time before he crosses a border that our men and women in uniform are gonna have to deal with.

I mean, we have a treaty alliance in NATO that under Article 5, "An attack on one NATO country is an attack on all."

And when you look at whether it be Poland, but more likely Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and you see what Vladimir Putin has expressed about his ambition of reestablishing that old Soviet sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, I think now more than ever, we need to meet this moment- - So- - With American strength and American leadership.

- Mike, critics on the right, including the president, have been very critical of Zelenskyy, President Zelenskyy, and have accused him of being a dictator and also maybe even taking money.

What's your view of Zelenskyy?

You've met him, you've been with him.

What's your view of him then and now?

- Well, I met him before the war when he was first elected as president, and we struck up a good relationship.

I saw him when I visited Kyiv in 2023, and I must tell you that I think he is rightly understood to be a wartime, a leader who has stood in the gap now for three years defending his nation.

Look, when Putin rolled his tanks in, he told the world it'd be over in two weeks.

I think he thought that the Ukrainian military and the Ukrainian president would collapse just the way the Afghanistan government did after that disastrous withdrawal, but instead, what they've seen is a resolve, the courage, the sacrifice of the Ukrainian soldiers and President Zelenskyy has stood in the gap.

And I admire 'em along with freedom-loving people around the world.

But again, look, I think it's important to say that while, you know, Ukraine is not our war, but freedom is our cause.

We have always taken the view to support people that are fighting for and defending their freedom, but I think the other part of this is so important, you know, Pat, we talk about our families a lot.

You know, my son's a major in the Marine Corps.

My son-in-law's a lieutenant in the United States Navy, both will deploy this year.

And people that talk about it being World War III, if we continue to stand strong with Ukraine, I think, ought to study World War II a little bit better.

It's when had the West and America stood with resolve against Germany's and Hitler's ambitions in the 1930s, history might have been different.

I think we stand firm.

That's how we prevent World War III and that's how we prevent ever seeing our soldiers having to essentially head to the front lines in Europe.

- Mike, you've been inside the Oval Office many times with President Trump, with meetings, with leaders.

Can you share your view of the dynamics in the Oval Office and since then on the rather heated discussion between Zelenskyy, the President, and Vice President Vance?

- Well, look, I've been in a lot of meetings and on a lot of calls with world leaders, and frankly, they're always bracing and candid, and particularly so when it comes to President Trump.

He doesn't hold back, he's not tied to diplomatic speak, Pat, which I think is a virtue, and I think it's very much in the interest of America that we have a president that puts it on the line.

I was disappointed in the tone and the direction that the conversation took place just a few weeks ago in the Oval Office.

I think it was important in that moment to make the deal that it looks like may be done as we sit here today, you know, a mineral sharing agreement and then a broad commitment for partnership leading to a ceasefire and continued military support.

But, you know, I've always had the view that it's a lot better when you're dealing with leaders of other Allied nations to go ahead and shut the door first before you tell.

- Yeah, that was on TV, live TV.

And as vice president, what would your role be in such a meeting, whether it be on live TV or in private?

Do you see the role of the vice president changing in the new administration versus when you were in office?

- Well, I would leave the judgment as to whether it's changing to others.

You know, I'm somebody.

I pray for the President every day, whatever our enduring differences are about the way the administration came to an end.

We pray for him and his family, we pray for Vice President Vance and their family, and I'll let them sort out that relationship.

For my part, you know, and I wrote about this in my book a couple years ago, my autobiography entitled, "So Help Me God."

I had a specific attitude about the role of the vice president, that you're there to support the president, you're there to give him counsel.

But in my case, I always felt that it was important to offer that counsel and to express those opinions in private.

And I think it's one of the reasons why President Trump and I had such a good and successful working relationship for almost all of our time together.

- Mr. Vice President, tariffs is one other issue where you may, based upon your recent tweets, have a disagreement.

In fact, the Republican party used to be the party of free trade, even the Freedom Caucus was very much free trade, and from Bush to Trump to Reagan free trade.

Now, they're more on... We have the tariff dispute going on as we speak.

What's your viewpoint of how the president is handling that?

- Well, look, I mean, you were governor of North Carolina and a very good governor, successful.

I was governor of Indiana.

I learned in that time how dependent both of our states are and states around the country for an international trade, good heavens.

What you make and what you grow in North Carolina, you sell all over the world and what you're building, you build oftentimes with components that come from around the world.

So, I've always believed that trade means jobs.

But I wanna tell you, during our administration, I fully supported the tough tariffs that we imposed on China.

China's erected extraordinary barriers to US goods, including agricultural goods.

And we brought China to the table in early 2020 with what came to be known as a Phase One Trade deal by imposing $250 billion in tariffs on them that continue to this very day.

But my view on the balance of the world, I believe in free trade with free nations.

Look, we're gonna come up in a year on the time to renegotiate the US-Mexico-Canada Agreement that we negotiated a while back to replace NAFTA.

I'm proud of the work that we did, but I believe that broad-based unilateral tariffs will only drive inflation, will cost jobs at a lower wages, and at our organization, Advancing American Freedom, we're gonna continue to be a strong voice for, again, get tough on China and other trade abusers in the world- - With free countries like Canada or Mexico, democracies like that, you would maybe have a difference based upon what you did in your administration, you and President Trump, versus what President Trump is doing now.

- That's exactly right.

I think we ought to get tough and we ought to negotiate trade agreements with our allies.

But look I think that these unilateral tariffs that are being contemplated, whether it be on Canada, Mexico, there's some talk about the UK, there's even talk about the EU, are counterproductive.

And, you know, it's important.

And I think, you know, I know you're gonna be talking about this in a couple of weeks here on "Unspun," but the truth is that while the president's established what he calls the Department of External Revenue, the truth is, when it comes to tariffs, the importer here in the United States pays the tariff.

The foreign country doesn't pay the tariff, foreign company doesn't pay the tariff, the person that wants to bring those goods into North Carolina, into Indiana, or anywhere else, pays the tariff.

And more often than not, passes along the increased costs on that product to the consumer.

So, I think, look, get tough, let's have arm's length negotiations with our allies around the world, make the goal to be free trade with free nations.

But too often, I hear the administration talking about broad-based unilateral tariffs that I think will ultimately work against American jobs, American families, and American business.

- In the remaining several minutes, first of all, conservatism.

You and I grew up in the Reagan era and both got involved in politics because of Ronald Reagan.

I've read your book.

And how has conservatism changed from Ronald Reagan to the way it is today, both in Congress and the executive branch?

- Well, I don't think the conservative movements really changed.

When I was running for president back in 2023, reporters often would say, you know, "The problem with you as someone that believes in strong national defense, limited government, fiscal responsibility, traditional values, is that Republican party doesn't exist anymore."

And, Pat, that wasn't my experience.

Probably it wasn't your experience as governor, it wasn't your experience on the airwaves of Charlotte for the last many years.

I mean, I think the American people still believe in those broad-based common sense ideals.

But there's a bit of a shift in the Republican party in Washington D.C., and it's a healthy debate, but has to do with whether we're gonna continue to be the leader of the free world, whether we're gonna continue to meet our obligations around the world, whether it's in Eastern Europe, in the Asia Pacific, or even there's some talk about whether we should continue our support for Israel.

- As we wrap this up, Mike, I do wanna find out this relationship between the president and vice president.

You had one of the most unique relationships.

You've said you had a great relationship with President Trump- - We did.

- Up until probably January the fifth when you were called into his office.

Can you briefly describe that dynamic and would you do anything different today?

- Well, the short answer to your last question is no, and I'll always believe by God's grace that I did my duty, and I kept my oath to support and defend the constitution and seat of the peaceful transfer of power.

But, you know, it was a very difficult time.

And honestly, I always thought the president would come around, you know, the controversy around the election.

I don't need to tell you.

In North Carolina, there was a lot of questions.

States around the country, about a half a dozen had changed the rules that undermined public confidence in the outcome of the election.

I fully supported all of the legal challenges and reviews that had taken place, but somewhere in mid-September, or excuse me, mid-December, when those cases started to not pan out and think the dice started to be cast, the attention turned to the process in Congress of opening and counting the electoral college votes.

And it was a rumor on the internet that I somehow could decide whether or not to count the votes of North Carolina or other states, or to reject them or send them back and- - I've got one quick question.

- No vice president in history had ever claimed that role, but I believe we did the right thing.

Again- - One quick question as we wrap up, the funeral of Jimmy Carter.

- Mm-hmm.

- You know, politicians have to get back together.

You got back together.

It's the first time you've talked to him.

- Yeah.

- Did you talk to him before or after, or was that the dynamic?

And I know your wonderful wife, Karen, also had a dynamic.

Can you tell us briefly in the remaining 20 seconds what that dynamic was like?

And we've been in certain similar circumstances, meeting people you've had conflicts with.

(Mike chuckles) - Well, the first thing I would say to you is, remember, the president and I actually parted on January 20th, 2021, very amicably.

I thought the president was very...

I thought he was very contrite about how things had unfolded, the riot that took place at the Capitol.

And we would speak over the course of the next few months, several different times.

But when the president kind of returned to the arguments that I somehow had the right to overturn the election, I just decided it was best to go our separate ways, and we've done that.

So, the first opportunity we had to speak to one another came at Jimmy Carter's funeral and President came down the aisle, and he nodded in my direction and said, "Hi, Mike."

And I stood up, stuck my hand out, and I said, "Congratulations, Mr.

President."

And I saw his face softened, and he said, you know, "Thank you."

And then Melania said the same.

She reached out to me and I said, "Congratulations to you, Melania."

And I would tell you it was a warm exchange.

You'll have to ask my wife about her posture in that moment, but all I can tell you is that my wife loves her husband, and I deeply respect.

- Mike.

- And I can- - I can relate to that with my wife Anne.

- But it was, you know, I thought people around the country have reached out to us and I've been grateful that I stood up, but I wouldn't have done otherwise.

As I said, we continue to pray for the President and the Vice President and all the leaders of our country.

You and I have worn that mantle for a while.

We know the burden of leadership and the responsibility.

And it is my hope and prayer to be a voice for helping to encourage this administration and leaders in the Congress to hue to those common sense conservative principles that drew us to the Republican party.

And so well served North Carolina when you were governor and I hope well served my state and nation when I served.

- Mr. Vice President, it's been an honor to have you on "Unspun."

Thank you very much.

- Thank you, Pat, good to be with you.

(upbeat music) All right, tonight on our "Unspun" Countdown, the top five disagreements behind the scenes in the White House or governor's mansions across the nation.

Let's start out with number five.

Number five, cabinet power struggles is a natural.

When you have a lot of cabinet members, they start fighting for power.

Number four, turf battles between the cabinet and the staff.

You see, the cabinet is far away from the White House supervising tens of thousands of people, then you have the staff right next to the president.

The cabinet wants to go talk to the president, but the staff members often block it.

They're the gatekeepers, which goes to number three, who gets access?

It's a constant battle in governor's mansions and the White House, is who gets the ear of the top executive?

And number two, who makes policy?

Is it the president, is it the vice president, is it the cabinet?

Is it someone else?

Maybe in the business community.

And number one, who speaks for the Chief Executive?

Is it the White House spokesman, is it the vice president, is it cabinet members, or is it maybe Elon Musk or another business leader?

Interesting dynamics in governor's mansions and the White House.

(dramatic music) PBS Charlotte's Jeff Sonier joins me now for "Unspun" 1-on-1.

- Not a lot of time after the VP interview, but I wanna ask you right off the bat, what did you think of what the vice president had to say in particular about issues like tariffs in the Ukraine?

- Well, definitely a disagreement from what Trump-Pence did versus what Trump-Vance is doing now on tariffs.

Mike Pence has always been a total free trader, like Ronald Reagan, like George Bush and others, where Trump is more of a populist and has always talked about tariffs.

So, that's a major disagreement occurring within the Republican party.

And on Ukraine, there's a major divide in the Republican party, and Pence is more conservative with regard to protecting freedom and democracy in Ukraine.

- There's a real difference in style, too, not just between Pence and the new vice president, JD Vance, but also how the president is using his vice president, right?

- The Vice President Vance is much more engaged in public.

Pence is probably more of a traditionalist, came from a governor's office.

He would've never had the interaction with, I think, Zelenskyy in public.

He may have done it in private, but not in public as Vance did.

- Last quick question.

You and the vice president knew each other when you were governors.

- Yeah.

- Do those relationships carry over when one of you gets to the White House and can do favors for your state, for example?

- Well, I don't know if it's about doing favors for the state, but they carry over for a lifetime.

I'm still very good friends with the governors that I served with and with the many national mayors that I served with.

We always tend to keep that relationship because we're a part of a unique group that served together and we understand what the pressures were of that day.

- Yeah, fascinating to hear from him tonight.

Thanks.

- No doubt about it.

- Yeah.

(dramatic music) - Well, saying no to the President can also mean saying goodbye to your own political career.

But some things are bigger than politics, and sometimes, a no isn't just the hard answer, it's also the right answer and the only answer.

- We condemn the violence that took place here in the strongest possible terms, violence never wins, freedom wins.

And this is still the people's house.

(audience applauds) Let's get back to work.

- That was right after losing a tough election alongside President Trump, the vice president resisting pressure from President Trump, and from rioters at the Capitol by refusing to overturn the results.

Just like the presidential race in 2020, my re-election race for governor in 2016 was the closest in North Carolina history.

There was even a recount, but that doesn't make it any easier when the results finally tell you, "No, there's no place to hide from rejection after an election.

You're supposed to shake hands with a candidate who's been criticizing you in public for months, pretending that you didn't take it personally, congratulating them for a win and wishing them the best."

It like getting fired from your job, only it's on live TV.

Losing isn't just a blow to your ego, it's depressing, and there's a lot of second-guessing.

It carries over to how you deal with friends and family and how they deal with you.

But what's really important is what happens next after the election.

Do you still have your integrity and your values and your faith?

Mike Pence answered yes to all those questions when he answered no to President Trump.

Pence conceded the election, his own election.

While not everybody agrees with what he did, I respect his decision because I've been there.

I understand how hard it is for individual politicians to give up power and relinquish their office, but it's not their office, it's not their power.

That decision belongs to we, the people.

Well, that's the reality as I see it.

I hope you'll come back next week as we tell you what politicians are thinking but not saying right here on "Unspun."

Goodnight, folks.

(lively outro music) (bright music) - [Announcer] A production of PBS Charlotte.