From Sky news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Well, our connection this hour was made with the passing of Pope Francis.

His legacy seems secure.

He was a pope who connected faith to environmental activism.

He was comfortable among the poor, and he spoke often of the need to share wealth across society to limit or eliminate suffering.

He lamented the trauma that many migrants face.

The New York Times called him a progressive pope who catalyzed the Catholic Church.

CNN said that Francis's progressive legacy changed the church.

The wire called him a very liberal pope, and ABC news said that Francis had the most progressive stance on a number of issues compared to his predecessors.

And there's the key.

Was Francis truly progressive, or did he seem progressive compared to Benedict and others who served before him?

Veteran Vatican reporter Francis Rocha recently wrote that Pope Francis routinely had it both ways.

He would speak to reporters on a plane and say things that no pope has ever said about gay rights and gay couples, for example, only to later clarify that doctrine is not changed.

Rocha writes, quote.

In 2013, he replied to a question about gay priests with what would become the most famous words of his papacy.

Who am I to judge?

The response, which prompted a mix of celebration, outrage and confusion, was an early indication of how he would communicate during his 12 years as pope.

Off the cuff.

Blunt in style, ambiguous in substance.

End quote.

So what was Pope Francis really after?

Again, here's Rocha quote.

Francis relished ambiguity, and his reasons for employing it are themselves open to interpretation.

He may have been trying to soften the edges of official teachings that he never really wanted to change.

Or he may have meant to sow the seeds of long term liberalization, preparing Catholics to see future doctrinal change as a natural outgrowth of papal rhetoric, rather than a break with tradition.

End quote.

My guests this hour have been thinking a great deal about this Pope's legacy.

And I'd like to welcome them now.

Doctor Damien Senda is with us.

Director of Mission in Ministry at McQuaid Jesuit.

Adjunct professor of theology at Creighton University in Omaha.

Author of Archbishop Oscar Romero, a disciple who revealed the glory of God.

Doctors in a welcome.

Thank you for being with us.

Thank you for the invitation to be with you this morning.

And Nora Bradbury Hill is with us.

Nora is a pastoral associate at Queen of Peace and Saint Thomas More churches, author of The Freshman Survival Guide and The Twentysomething Handbook.

Welcome back to the program.

It's been a little while.

Nice to see you here.

So nice to be here.

And you know, Nora, the first time we talked about this pope, it was similar themes.

And it's interesting that Rocha writes from the Vatican about this legacy that says, you know, either he didn't love all the doctrine, but didn't want to change it and wanted to soften it, or he wanted to lay the groundwork for future full church doctrinal change to prepare the faithful with the kind of rhetoric and cultural progression that he sees as inevitable.

It's hard to say exactly, but let me just start with some general questions.

How do you feel about his legacy?

What is what is this Pope's service mean to you?

I think one of the things that Francis did really well was hold the tension in the church.

it's a global church.

And I think in the United States we can forget that.

so when you think of culturally what's going on in Africa, what's going on in Asia, and what are their concerns there in the church compared to, you know, here in Rochester, New York, and what we're worried about and the progress that we want to see.

that's that's a lot of tension to hold.

And I think he did that really well.

At the same time, he brought a focus to the people on the margins, that, I think really moved the world.

I think the authenticity of his care for the poor, for LGBTQ people, and kind of everything in between that he, the the love and care and attention that he brought to those folks, lent, it helped everybody listen to him more.

I think, Damien, what are your first thoughts on when you think about the legacy of this Pope?

Well, I'm going to agree with Nora, certainly, that he was able to hold the tension.

But I think one of the things that we want to keep in mind is, you know, what Pope Benedict, gave to the church was clear doctrine, right?

And most people will say, well, Francis really wavers, or he's ambiguous doctrine did not change with him.

He's very clear.

He's very much a man of the church, and he's very much a leader, right?

A teacher, a leader.

But what he brings is a more pastoral approach, right?

So when we talk about Francis being, progressive, I don't think that language is helpful for us because I think that can lead to, a greater chasm, like within the church.

instead of saying that he was progressive, I think he is certainly much more pastoral than we have seen with his two predecessors.

Define that term that you're using.

He's pastoral.

Pastoral?

Sure.

So that would come, when we look at clergy, they're trained to be not theologians, but pastoral people, people who attend to the needs of the people at the time.

Right.

And so, you know, to be, when we look at the Beatitudes, right.

That's really the script for how to attend to people, both their physical needs, psychological, pastoral, spiritual, communal, social needs.

and I think given the fact that Francis himself is a Jesuit, right.

He was a Jesuit.

he would have been trained in that pastoral style.

And he was given leadership positions within the Jesuits.

He was provincial at a very young age.

but the first job of a, of a provincial, really, is to take care of the needs of the men in his care in his province.

Right.

Well, I really do take the point that this was a pastoral pope.

This was someone who was ministering to the needs of the people, was not afraid to be among the people, and really, was authentic.

And in some of those desires in, in the view of many people who observed him.

Damien.

When, when people talk about him as and I read some of the headlines, I could do it all day as a more progressive pope.

And you say that might not be the right language.

We're probably applying in a sort of an American political and cultural and social lens.

Correct.

And I understand the point that this was a worldwide pope.

But what about the argument that says, as imperfect as that framing may be, he wasn't that progressive if doctrine didn't change.

What do you make of that?

If doctrine didn't and it largely didn't under no.

Francis.

So so what we have to remember is that most popes are not going to change doctrine.

Right?

They're going to try to make, the move of doctrine into the common era, to try to make it applicable in the here and now.

What is our context?

And as Nora said, you know, he's dealing it.

He's global.

Right.

So what would apply to us here in turn?

could is very different in other parts of the world and, and even how the church is as an institution.

Right.

I think that, what what Francis gives us is the, the balance to the institution.

Right.

So the institution, we have to have it, we have to have doctrine, dogma.

We have to have a certain kind of structure to our right, our identity as Catholics.

Right?

But doctrine can change, right?

Oh, it can, but we're going to have to take a look at another Vatican council to do that.

Right.

So because the teaching authority of the church is the bishops and the bishops, and when they come together in a council, that's when they take a look at some of those things, some of those changes.

Right.

So if you look at Vatican Council, go back to 63 to 65.

Those were huge seismic changes that happened in the Catholic world globally.

But it came from the body of bishops.

And it doesn't just happen at those meetings.

There's usually 2 to 3 if not 5 to 6 years, given to theologians to look at what are some of the things that we need to update in the church, right.

Because when we came to the council in 63, we were still celebrating liturgy from the Council of Trent in 1546.

Right.

So 300 years later, look at the changes.

Change doesn't always happen overnight and especially in the church.

I mean, we're going to be very, very careful of how we, how we proceed.

Nor do you think that the ground has been laid for future doctrinal change by this Pope.

I think when you look at his encyclicals and what he chose to write about, I mean, that's where you see the teaching of this pope.

and so, you know, he he, he had an encyclical about youth, and it's very pastoral.

It it pays attention to and cares for what young people are experiencing today.

Laudato si has, encyclical on the environment.

that that's again one of those things that got a lot of attention, and, and made people pay attention in a different way.

And so I think you can see in his encyclical where he's maybe, you know, opening some windows and, and letting the breeze blow through so that people can start having those conversations and, you know, the, the, the other thing that got a lot of press over the, the last couple of years was the Synod, and, and that's another place where, I think Pope Francis feels progressive and, and maybe laying, you know, maybe laid some of that foundation.

And, but he wanted us to become a listening church, a church in conversation.

And so, you know, he made reforms to the Curia, and, you know, brought some women into leadership positions that had never had women in them before.

And so those things in the Catholic Church do feel seismic.

and, and I and and so in that sense, I, I could see him, yes.

Preparing us for the future.

Let me just you mentioned LGBTQ plus rights and identities, and let me just read some headlines over the course of the last 12 years that indicate the way this pope would at least speak to people and talk about issues in ways that did feel almost revolutionary.

This is from Reuters 2022.

Support your children if they are gay, Pope tells parents from The Hill in 2019.

Pope Francis seeks to make Lgbtq+ people feel more welcome in the church.

From the Association of Catholic Priests 2016, Pope Francis sent me a letter.

It gives me hope.

As a gay Catholic from New Ways Ministry 2016 that there is no place for homophobia.

Pope Francis says, I mean, again, I could go on.

That feels something close to revolutionary.

And yet I could probably also cherry pick some commentary from gay Catholics who felt like it wasn't radical enough, who might look in Rochester at, you know, spiritus Corpus Christi and say, now that's the model of being radical.

And if it's going to take decades or hundreds of years for another Vatican council, I don't want it, and I can understand that.

How do you see it?

So as somebody who works with youth and young adults, I feel like Francis gave us room.

he gave us witness, and, and said there's a place in the church for LGBTQ plus Catholics.

I totally understand that.

For a lot of people, that's not enough.

but it it, it gave me room to stand up and say there's a place in the church for you.

When, when Pope Francis was saying things like that.

It was.

It was funny, you know, as as somebody who works for the church, I'm always attentive to, the things that I'm posting on social media.

And I remember something came up one day and I was like, oh, is this is this something that I can say publicly?

And I was quoting the Pope and I just laughed at myself because it's kind of ridiculous.

But but it I think it points to exactly what you're talking about.

and and it there were conversations that under the two previous popes, we could not have.

And I think that's one of the things that was very, very different about Francis.

I think your point about, you know, can I say this publicly after reading what the Pope himself was saying, is indicative of why the the public and non-Catholics might have looked at Francis and really thought of him as a radical change maker because he would say these things in these headlines would come out.

And again, there's dozens of them, not just about social issues, but a lot of issues, environmental issues.

and you would think, well, look at the church, they've changed a lot.

And then the Vatican would be like, excuse me.

We haven't we haven't really changed any doctrine on that.

Yeah.

You know, he was just talking to reporters on the plane.

Do not, you know, and and that push pull is fascinating.

But again, it's it's either one thing or another.

It's it is a softening or it's a laying the ground.

But I can relate to people who would feel like, hey, if the dark Doctrine is not there, then where am I?

Do I have a place here?

Did you notice a change among young people, young Catholics, and how they perceived their identity within the church?

What the church was under under this pope?

I think so, yeah, I think so.

And I think that, you know, some of that is hard to because it came along with some real societal changes in the United States.

Yeah, yeah.

For about, you know, kids coming out earlier and having a better sense of what was going on with them.

but I but I do think that the immediate response to, someone reckoning with their sexuality wasn't I got to get out of here with the Catholic Church.

It was starting to ask those questions.

Is there room for me and starting to look around and have those conversations instead?

So, Damien, how do you then see help me understand this question on doctrine.

And here's another example.

This comes from, The Atlantic's reporting in a 2020 documentary, Francis voiced support for civil unions for same sex couples despite the 2003 statement from the Vatican's doctrinal office that ruled out civil unions.

So again, the doctrine still stands correct.

The Pope is voicing support.

And what does that mean to you?

Is it is it is it meaningless if the Pope voices support without doctrinal change?

What is the meaning when that's happened?

So what we have to parse out here is, what the Pope actually said was share the blessing.

Right?

that a blessing can be given to anyone.

And there was a really a lot of conversation and a lot of angst around when, when that this first rolled out.

Right.

but what what we have to be clear on is he is simply giving a blessing.

He is not sanctioning his not right.

So again, he's coming from that pastoral place.

And so let me also ask you about another statement that he made that I think, at least from my very, very lay observer perspective, makes him so different than Benedict.

Again, as someone who's not a professional, this is not my expertise.

My read on Benedict was that Benedict had very strong views on doctrine, what it meant to be a Catholic.

what it should mean for the strictures and the standards, of who was, quote, in the tent and who is not.

And he seemed from my perspective, more comfortable saying, if you can't meet these demands, this is what we ask of the faithful, then that is okay.

You're not part of this church.

Whereas Francis seemed to me to look at human beings as inherently flawed and beautiful in their flaws.

Yeah.

And here's an example.

When asked if gay Catholics had to be celibate, the Pope declined to answer directly, but offered this comment.

We must not be superficial and naive, forcing people into things and behaviors for which they are not yet mature or not capable.

End quote.

I can't imagine Benedict having said something like that.

What do you think?

So again, we get we have to look at where both of these men are coming from.

So Benedict is a trained theologian who is given responsibility for keeping the orthodoxy of the church worldwide.

And again, we're looking at how do we take doctrine and apply it to various regions of the world within context, in people's experiences.

Right.

So he's he's also, been someone who has been, connected with the Curia for a very long time and has very, very limited pastoral experience.

Francis, on the other hand, is coming from Argentina, where he is not a trained theologian, but he is a theologian without the credential.

Okay.

And, for him, his whole priesthood was about attending to the flock.

Attend again.

Here's that pastoral piece that.

So he comes from from that.

Again, we can't look at Francis without understanding his formation and the theology of, you know, what is Jesuit spirituality?

Okay.

So Saint Ignatius will have all Jesuits make the 30 day spiritual exercises right in their formation, which is very long.

Once in the very they're very beginning of their formation as novices.

And then they'll make that retreat again in probably about 12 to 15 years, when they're ready to take final vows.

Okay.

And in, in that retreat.

A man prays for five hours, different time periods during the day with the Gospels, and is encountering again and again and again a personal experience of Jesus, what Francis knows and what how Jesuits are trained.

And for laypeople who make the spiritual exercises and many, many do, is Francis is value of the human being can be traced all the way back to the incarnation.

So it rolls like this.

If God elected to be human, how valuable human beings are that permeates everything that Francis says, everything that he writes.

his just his last piece of, of literature.

Right.

I don't think it's an encyclical, but the Cygnus on the sacred Heart, right?

I mean, you read that document.

It is written like a wonderful piece of theological literature.

He's going to the scriptures.

He's looking at the history.

What's the tradition?

Said about this?

And then he brings it forward in how to live.

You know, how for him, he's he's really challenging us to be people of, who are followers of Jesus.

Not so much, people who are faithful to the Catholic Church.

So for him, you know, obedience, fidelity to Jesus and all that Jesus asks of him, in my opinion, is more important than fidelity to church teaching.

Right?

Because at the end of the day, when I have a personal encounter with Jesus Christ, I'm going to be transformed if it's authentic, right?

And what that's going to do is going to it's going to place me, face to face with my own biases, prejudices, failings, sinfulness.

and yet at the end of the day, looking at the reality of all that Jesus still loves me.

God's still loves me.

And so the element of forgiveness, the element of we can start over again.

Francis is a reformer right at the heart of Ignatian spirituality of the Spiritual Exercises is conversion.

So when I look at his legacy, Francis's legacy, it's taking the spiritual exercise Jesus and bringing it to the world and saying we are a people in need of conversion.

It's not just the church in need of conversion, which we've known about forever, right?

But it's economic systems.

It is where political systems it is in every, every facet of human life.

And nor when I when I then think about some of the first acts that Francis engaged in publicly and how he demonstrated his comfort with people from all incomes and ways of life and, and, wanting to be up close with people who maybe world leaders would bubble themselves off from.

I saw what appeared to be an authenticity on his part in interpreting Scripture and the way that he saw the historical Jesus, not sort of the Kenny Loggins megachurch Jesus, but maybe the historical Jesus and his comfort with saying, embracing people who are struggling with poverty did seem pretty revolutionary.

And I wonder what you think the legacy of that will be.

So, the the place that he chose to be buried, the church, Saint Mary Major, is in an immigrant neighborhood.

there are a lot of homeless folks there.

And the last people to sort of say goodbye in all the official acts of of, Pope Francis's funeral, was a group of people on the margins.

And he, he wrote that in his plans for how he wanted his funeral to be celebrated.

and, and it included migrants and refugees.

That group of people included, LGBTQ people.

It included some trans people.

So, right at the very last, he's he's placing his tomb in a place that says, these people matter.

These people need to be the center of the church's concern that those folks on the margin, we have to place them at the center.

And I think going back to that difference between, Benedict and Francis, I think Benedict and of his time was very concerned about the church.

there was and still is a polarity in the church and a lot of tension.

and reforms were needed.

you know, the sexual abuse crisis was still very much, at the center of the news.

and so Benedict was very concerned about the church, and I think Francis, you know, one of the one of the terms he used to use all the time was, he criticized the church for being self referential.

Self-referential was the word that he would use.

And I, I feel like we we didn't translate that.

Well.

It might have been narcissistic and that would be that would be more to the point.

Right.

I mean, if I think back to his, I think it was his first year, his first, not his very first Christmas, I think it was the second one.

He gave an address to the Curiel Cardinals.

Right.

Which is usually like a kind of a very, you know, kind of a, you know, build the body up.

But he he goes through this whole list of, of, ills he calls them ills in the Courier and again calling them to change of heart conversion.

Conversion did not cut those guys any.

None at all.

It's like a Festivus airing of the grievances as as a matter of fact, you know, I think the Wall Street Journal picked it up and actually translated it into, some of the best practices within, you know, within business.

But they were pulling on Francis's, you know, addressed to the Creole cardinals.

And he was tough on on seminarians.

He was tough on priests.

So, you know, that that, he was he was, always reaching out to the rest of the world and, and calling the church to a higher standard of authenticity and of love and care, especially for those on the margins.

So that I mean, that I think is is a real, significant difference in, in, I mean, when you're Pope, you get to shine a spotlight, right?

and and where he shown that light was, was on those folks that are most vulnerable, most fragile, most in need.

I want to stay for the record, too.

I love Kenny Loggins.

I just, you know, I just don't want to get that Kenny Loggins.

Hey, man, we we had a really lovely conversation recently, with, a scriptural translator and someone, a woman who is spent a lot of time thinking about the way that modern translations and texts have sort of been politicized and manipulated to present an image of Jesus, of Scripture, in a very sort of modern, highly charged political way, sometimes misogynistic, oftentimes privileging wealth and and ignoring some of the kind of the work that people like Francis have done.

what?

Nor why you know, if Jesus Christ is at the center of this and we understand the historical Jesus as we possibly can understand the person, why do we have a prosperity gospel?

What what is what why is what Pope Francis did so revolutionary in modern church teachings is embracing the poor today?

Yeah, it's big difference.

Why do you think?

I mean, the reason that we have a prosperity gospel, I think, is, you know, there's there's all sorts of, cautions about that out there, but the, the idea that, that we can form God in our own image, you know, to have the same enemies that we have and to support our own preferences.

That's always the danger with any religion, right?

but but I think, you know, and and, I'll reveal my bias here.

You know, thank God for the Jesuits, that, that that attention that we pay to putting ourselves in the gospel and to know who Jesus really was.

When we look at the things that Jesus paid attention to and talked about, it's I got a Bible once where all of the, all of the references, to the poor and social justice were highlighted in orange.

It was great because you could just, like, flip through it.

It came printed that way.

And so you could quickly and easily find those passages about social justice and the folks that want to deny that, you know, our, our tradition calls us to care for the poor.

I mean, it's it's right there in the scriptures.

And, and so to me, it's very puzzling that you can, claim to, to follow Jesus and not know that about him, that he stands with the poor.

Well, you know, Damian, I couldn't help but see, on Easter that it was the megachurch pastor, Kenneth Copeland, who had dinner at the white House with the president, and he stopped and actually answered, made the mistake of answering some questions from a reporter about how many planes he owns.

And, you know, the massive wealth that he's accumulated.

And he said that, you know, that Jesus would want this because he's out there spreading the message and like, he needs all those planes and he needs all that wealth, and that's a good thing.

And that's what God would want.

And I'm going like, boy, you know, so that it's the 24 hours within the passing of Pope Francis.

This is the ostensible Christian leaders dining at the white House.

And it just feels like two very different kind of forms.

Well, it is, because that's first of all, that's a that's very transactional.

right.

If I, if I do this, Jesus will give me this.

And if I do this and, and that's, that's, that's a total abrogation of in my, in my opinion of, of the gospel, you know, we are to be in service of the kingdom, not the other way around.

And again, this could be my Jesuit formation, right?

And my education is, you know, look, I work for God.

God does not work for me.

Right?

And so what Francis brings to the table when we look at, you know, the the prosperity gospel is transitional and transactional and, he's all about relationship.

All right.

So if you read the legacy nice.

You're looking at you.

You can just now that Francis is gone.

You can just kind of watch his whole life how this was his great legacy.

It's all about the heart.

It's all about the relationship.

And the other thing that Francis leaves for us in terms of this relationship is accessibility.

Right?

Look, look at the number of oh, who is the pastor?

Nor I don't know if you remember his name.

in Gaza, he would call him at once a week, right?

I mean, that got a lot of attention after the pope died.

What Pope has the time to call a pastor in the middle of a war zone every week?

Right.

And my suspicion is, after he dies, we're going to we're going to see a lot of volume of people saying, yeah, I remember when he did this, or I remember when he did this, I want to go back if I might.

I had the opportunity of attending a papal liturgy.

I was studying in Rome, in 2017, and, got tickets to go to a pallium mass and a pallium masses that very high liturgy where the bishop, where the pope makes new cardinals right.

And it was, a Saturday morning.

It was about 9:00 and it was 93 degrees outside.

And we were all in Saint Peter's Square.

And we're pretty, pretty up close.

My classmates and I were pretty up close to the to the altar area.

And when Pope Francis came out, I mean, you got to think he is in the sun.

He's got an undershirt on a shirt of vestment, an alba vestment.

And, you know, so he's got to be.

But he was during this liturgy, he just seemed like he was moving through the motions.

He was just doing what he had to do when he sat in the presider chair.

You know, his body language just said, okay.

So I'm thinking maybe the poor man is having a heat stroke or if, you know, there's no energy.

And I was really kind of bummed by that.

I thought, oh, this is really kind of disappointing.

And, and my friend said, well, you know, let's go, let's go have brunch.

And I'm like, no, I just want to hang out because he's going to come out in the Popemobile.

Honestly, he comes out in the Popemobile and he's like a 36 year old.

His energy was completely different and he I can see why his security detail would say that he was a nightmare.

I mean, he would stop.

He would get off.

Yeah.

I mean, this was early on in his pontificate when he was, you know, a lot more healthier than we.

So it it was for me, quite amazing to see how, you know, it wasn't just he giving himself to the people.

The people entrusted him with who they were to make sure he would respect that.

Right?

I mean, most people, we have to remember that most people who are on the fringes of, of the church or even of society, they deal with a tremendous amount of shame.

And Francis was able to just look right past that and say, it's not about, it's about who God created you to be.

And I want to love you just as Jesus loves you.

And look, I don't care if you did this.

You just come home, you know?

And so that image of coming home to the heart of Francis is it's just.

Yeah, that's why that story.

Yeah, it is what's great and how revealing where someone gets their energy, you know, really.

You know, so when we have a, when, when we hear people talking about Francis being the pope of the people, there's something about transparency, accessibility, relationship and everything else is secondary.

You know, it's interesting.

You use the term transactional versus relationship building, you know?

Correct.

Why are you praying?

Are you praying because you want to get something?

Is it a transactional discourse or are you showing humility, building relationship?

you know, years ago in a previous job, I interviewed Victoria Osteen Osteen, Joel Joel, Victoria Osteen, and she said, you know, if you pray hard enough, God will give you first class plane tickets on your next flight.

And I'm going.

I don't think so.

I just don't feel like that's what is prayer is for.

But, you know, our conversation about Francis indicates, you know, the difference between transactional ism and relationship building or a pastoral approach.

we have to take our only break.

I'm going to get some feedback from listeners as we talk about the legacy of Pope Francis.

and if you want to join the conversation, you can email the program connections at Dawg, connections at C dawg.

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Hale and Doctor Damien's into talking about the legacy of Pope Francis.

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I'm Evan Dawson.

So Dallas writes to say that, he thinks that the news is in the news media.

He says the news media wants a pope to allow gay weddings.

If he says gay people deserve love, then the news covers it as though progress has been made.

That, and to validate the environmentalists by saying God is part of the earth, etc..

So what Dallas is saying is that the news media leans left and they're trying to frame Pope Francis as this progressive because it fits the news media's politics.

But he didn't do all the things.

He didn't go all the way with doctrinal change.

And that's just the skew of a left leaning media that wants you to think that this is a pope who is a change maker, moving left.

what do you think, Norah?

Damien, you want to start?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know about the media because I have very limited experience with the media, but I will tell you that, I mean, we can spin anything any way we want it.

You know, whoever controls the narrative moves, moves forward, right?

But I can tell you that Pope Francis is really coming from the tradition.

There is he.

He is.

He is on target.

He he knows Jesus.

He knows Jesus because he's a good theologian.

He's a good pastor.

He's a good priest.

He's good bishop, good pope.

but he also knows Jesus by personal experience.

And the Jesus that he knows is the God, the God of Jesus.

Right.

So the God of the Old Testament, who is I mean, think about how how Pope Francis began his pontificate with a year of mercy.

The God of the Old Testament is a God of mercy and justice.

You can never, ever separate the two of those.

All right.

If our Jewish brothers and sisters have given us anything, beautifully, explained and, the way they live out, Judaism, it is you don't separate mercy and justice.

One does not come without the other.

And what Francis is bringing forward is paying attention to that right to be merciful, because we know mercy.

And so.

And you can't give what you don't have.

That's what Francis is bringing forward to.

So I can I can speak to that part of Dallas's, reflection, but I don't I don't know, I can't speak to media.

nor do you want to weigh in on that.

Sure.

I, I think, you know, the the, what get click what gets clicks is, is certainly, the news that's going to spread, and, and, I think that, Pope Francis, I mean, I think he learned some hard lessons early on that when he had a misstep.

And, you know, the same thing happened with Benedict.

I remember he gave an address at Regensburg, in Germany.

This is Benedict.

Now, early on in his papacy that ended up in, he he said some, things about Muslims from the Middle Ages and, some, you know, violence resulted in different parts of the world.

And he changed his language after that, and he he became a more Benedict.

This is became a more media savvy pope.

And I and I think that that Francis, came into his papacy with, more of an awareness certainly than, than Benedict had had, because of because of Francis's background.

He certainly had that.

I, I think, though, that that, it comes back to that pastoral approach.

One of the other things that Francis was famous for saying is, that the shepherds should smell like the sheep, you know, and that and that being there with the poor or for the poor, for the people on the margins, Mel, meant that you were going to get dirty, you know.

And one of the other images he used was that of the the church's a field hospital and that we need to be out there doing triage.

so I don't I don't really buy it that it's just the media.

I really think that that's who Francis was.

Yeah.

I would say to Dallas, I mean, read aloud outdoorsy.

And, you know, just as an example, that wasn't a comment on a plane trying to placate left wing environmentalists.

I mean, that's that.

and, and the a number of comments he made about social issues over the years, it wasn't a one off one time is what I would put it.

I know doctrine didn't change, but it wasn't a one off one time.

So, I appreciate that, Dennis.

Thank you.

This is Greg in San Diego listening on the mobile app.

Hey, Greg, go ahead.

Hey.

Good morning.

You know, Francis took, over the papacy in a very strange way that hadn't been done in 500 years.

His predecessor resigned and lived for at least five years into Francis's papacy.

So, you know, in a sense, was Ben Benedict was there and there were still many, conservative Catholics who would have preferred Benedict to remain in the papacy.

And I just wonder how the era of the two popes affected what what Francis felt able to do, able to say, I mean, and Benedict actually moved back into the Vatican in the last couple of years of his life, and even to this day, reading social media.

some people paint Francis as a wild eyed liberal compared to Benedict.

So I don't know how much Francis could have changed in the ten years or whatever that, that he had.

But, you know, Benedict was there, and I had to stop to think that that was was one element of his papacy, Greg, that French.

You know, it's an interesting point.

Thank you.

Greg.

So do you think doctors into that the fact that his predecessor was still alive and still an influential figure influenced him at influenced Francis at all?

Well, my read on Pope Francis is that he would be very respectful of his predecessor, right, of his office of the person.

but he may not agree with him on how to proceed.

Again, I'm going to tap back into Francis's experience of being a Jesuit and of being a man of the Spiritual Exercises, one of the largest graces that one prays for and comes to, indignation.

Spirituality is this thing called indifference.

In other words, indifference does not mean, how we use a colloquial today.

Like I don't care.

Indifference means, look, if I know I have to say something, can I be okay with having the freedom to say what needs to be said without worrying what people will say about me?

Repercussion means.

I mean, it's not being cavalier and it's not being, you know, tossing your coins to the wind.

What it means is, if God is calling me to proclaim the gospel, I have to be faithful to what I know God is calling me to do.

Now again, he's going to do that in conversation with his spiritual director, with his confessor, with his, the close people who are advising him.

he is a very Francis is a very measured man.

He's a man of great reflection.

You know, one of the things, you know, when in preparing for having this conversation, you know, the people of the Diocese of Rochester would know a pastoral approach that we enjoyed for so many years with Bishop Clark.

Right.

So I think when we're looking at Pope Benedict, I think we have, you know, our current ordinary is a very wonderful leader.

Right.

But he would tend to be more of that kind of leader towards Pope Benedict.

and I think Bishop Clark gave us an experience of a pastoral leader.

And when you look at, you know, again, Bishop Clark's accessibility, his great love for the people of this diocese, certainly, any woman in in ministry today in this diocese will tell you, you know, that were it not for a personal conversation or several conversations with Bishop Clark, right?

Yeah.

I remember when I was studying in Toronto, that was the year I think was 97 or 98 I it blurs now at my age.

Bishop Clark was one of the first bishops in the country to, and consultation with the priest personnel board and the clergy.

it was time to ask for forgiveness from the gay and lesbian community for how the church has treated.

Right, our friends.

And so he was going to have on the first Sunday of Lent, and, he was going to have a mass of reconciliation.

And that was I mean, there was a lot of tension in that because many people were were saying, well, he's condoning, you know, gay, gay, experiences and living together and that lifestyle, when in fact he was not doing that at all, but he was leading with a heart for the people.

Right.

And again, here is that reconciliation.

Now, when we look at those two, Benedict and, Francis, you know, the charism of the Jesuits is reconciliation.

And what Francis brings to us is being attentive to bringing together, the heart of what is this kingdom of God?

How can we live this in a very practical and real way without all the trappings of religiosity?

And I think when Nora was talking about he was hard on the Cardinals.

He was hard on seminarians.

He's hard because what he's saying is, don't play priest, don't play Cardinal, don't play Christian.

But being a disciple of Jesus Christ is really hard work.

And the first piece of that hard work is personal conversion.

let me also say Bishop martino has never been on this program.

part of the fall is mine.

In recent years.

I'd given up on trying to convince him to come on.

I mean, usually the diocese either doesn't respond or declines.

but the bishop, it's an open invitation.

if anybody in the in this room has any pull, go for it.

We'd love to have him on.

but this is a he's a very different person than Bishop Clark, as any two bishops would be.

And that's that's fine.

but different dispositions toward the media.

So, that's why listeners have never heard, the current bishop.

now, let me just get a few more points of, correspondence in, because we're going to lose the hour in just a second here.

Angela wants to Angela cites that, this pope unequivocally said that women could not be ordained as deacons.

he said that that ignored the work of three different bodies that he had set up to study as a possibility that women could be ordained.

but then he would later go on to say that the possibility remains open.

So Angela is referring to some more of kind of that ambiguity.

Nor do you see ambiguity in, you know, where this Pope was on the ordination of women.

The I followed the, the diaconate, conversation and, and back and forth.

quite a bit and, and, and and I'll, I'll agree with Angela there that that, it was it really seemed on again off again.

And I and I think if we looked at anything that was unfinished in his papacy, I think that conversation is one I think that was that was a can.

He was kicking down the road, until, the time was ripe.

but, I, I might because I'm a big fan of Pope Francis.

I might be giving him more credit than is due there, because I think I feel like that's an unfinished piece of his papacy.

Now, fresh off conclave winning best Picture, everyone is ready for, you know, kind of watching to see what happens next.

And, listeners are wondering if the next pope will simply try to reverse some of the cultural change that might have happened under this pope.

I don't I think you don't think that the next pope will be a kind of a reversal from Pope Francis.

No.

Yeah.

I mean, they always say whatever you think is the opposite of what's actually going to happen.

and, and literally anything could happen.

but, Francis appointed 80% of the cardinals that will be voting, in this conclave.

and certainly not that that every single one of them is as big of a fan of Pope Francis as I am.

but, I do think that many of them were chosen because they were shepherds who smelled like the sheep, because they were pastoral guys and not political guys.

And I think in that sense, I think they're folks that are going to be attentive to unity in the church.

and, and that global perspective of the church, but more likely to be more like Francis.

Okay, I would agree, I would agree, yes.

Okay.

thank you, producer Megan Mac, for correcting me.

Conclave didn't win Best Picture and Nora did.

Sorry, Mikey Madison and the team there, but, conclave was nominated.

Well, it's getting a lot of buzz.

I guess we'll see what comes out of that.

30s apiece.

We're down to our last minute.

Sad time for you.

Reflective time.

What does this been like for you as you think about this legacy?

I wrote my bulletin column for our church about Pope Francis, and there were definitely a few tears as I was writing.

But mostly I'm grateful and hopeful.

Doctors.

And I am profoundly grateful that God gave us a shepherd and Francis.

And if we really want to know the heart of the man, don't read.

His biographers read his last book, which was supposed to be published posthumously.

it's called Hope.

It's his autobiography, but also to read his, his encyclicals, his writings.

It.

Yeah, I so I too, I share the gratitude and, and I trust that the Holy Spirit will lead us to who we need.

You want us to pick up his book?

You said yes, and we're going to.

What's one thing that we'll glean from that book about this pope?

He's reflecting on his own life?

and I think if we listen to how he comes to conversion, how he comes to a reform of his own life, we can then better appreciate how he then has the authority and the, authenticity to bring to the church a call to authenticity and and being true disciples of Jesus Christ.

I want to thank our guests for reflecting on this Pope and joining us this hour.

Doctor Damien Zander, director of mission and ministry at McQuaid, Jesuit, adjunct professor of theology at Creighton University, author of Archbishop Oscar Romero A Disciple Who Revealed the Glory of God, doctors.

And to thank you for being.

Thank you.

It's my my privilege and well, it's our our pleasure to have you and Nora Bradbury Hill.

Great having you back here, author of the Freshman Survival Guide.

Still available, still great.

The 20 something handbook, same pastoral associate at Queen of Peace and Saint Thomas More churches.

Thank you for being here.

Always good to be here.

Thanks.

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