♪♪ -Can the lens capture how men really feel?

Today on "Generational Anxiety," we're talking to men about men -- what they think, how they feel, and how the way we capture men on camera is changing.

Woman: And that's what love is.

Love's got your back.

Woman: It's a reaching.

It's a yearning.

It's an aching.

Adamu: I think silence prohibits expectations.

Rodriguez: Are we being heard?

Are we being seen?

Woman: I think people feel safe when they can define you.

Vivion: We created this show because the world is changing.

My first guest is a living legend in the world of documentary and street photography, who has changed the way we see the American inner cities.

Winner of countless awards for his work depicting the '90s street gangs of East L.A. and poetic scenes of '80s Spanish Harlem, his photos can be found in museums across the globe, from Helsinki to Harlem, but he's a Brooklynite through and through.

Author of seven books and now an NYU professor, he's a great storyteller, photographer, and friend.

Please welcome Mr. Joseph Rodriguez.

My next guest is a Nigerian-Canadian creative director who's pushing the bounds of visual storytelling.

Best known for his work, The Hair Appointment, a live photography exhibition exploring the intimacy of Black braiding salons.

his photos bring new light to stories of coming of age, African heritage, and human emotion.

Founder of Creative Agency Sunday School Company.

He's shaping the way we see modern Africa and its global impact on culture.

Hailing from Toronto, please welcome Josef Adamu Welcome.

Thank you both for being here today.

Thank you, Joseph.

Thank you, Josef.

For the purposes of this show, I'm going to call you Joe, and I'm going to call you Josef, to just make it clear to the audience.

So today's episode's called "Portrait of Manhood," and it's about exactly that -- how men are portrayed in popular culture, in photography and storytelling.

I know you're both photographers and storytellers in your own right.

And so I want to ask you a question.

Take it however you will.

What's going on with men in this country today?

Well, thank you for having us.

We appreciate being here with you.

There's a lot to -- to discuss -- what's going on with men today?

Depends on, also, the age of -- of the men today.

You know, if we look at a lot of the youth, for example, which is where I spent a lot of my sort of documentary practice on, from what I learned through my interviews and photography and books is they have a lot of stories to tell -- one, starting with family.

A lot of the young men that I sort of keep in touch with, even -- I photographed when they were 14 or 15 years old -- are now grown men.

And they have struggled to try to make their lives better.

But there's a lot of challenges.

For example, if you get caught up in the criminal-justice system and you come back to the same place that you grew up in, that you live in, you know, you've got to deal with the issues of -- number one issue would be education.

Right.

Work.

And how -- how can I make that happen for myself?

Mm-hmm.

College education has gotten to be so much a business... Mm-hmm.

...that what I hear from a lot of the youth from L.A. to New York, Chicago, Miami, is -- it's the same conversation.

"I don't know if I want to put myself in a situation where I'm gonna have to owe a lot of money for a lot of years coming out of school.

Mm-hmm.

And if things are not really calm and supportive at home...

Right.

...which happens a lot in a lot of the inner cities throughout the country, where do you -- where do you find your quiet?

Where do you find your calm?

Where do you find your support network?

And that's a lot to do with family.

So what I see through the young people today is really how you're growing up in the environment you're living in every day... Sure.

...and what's that like?

And I think I have to answer that question a little bit more personally, because I have to think about what it was like for me when I was 16 years old...

Please.

Mm-hmm.

...and growing up in -- in -- in a family that was fractured.

You know, my -- my stepfather was a heroin addict.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, we had to deal with that... Wow.

...daily, everyday occurrence of -- of, like, you know, "Gee, I'm working hard, I'm shining shoes, but he's taking my money.

You know, he's using it for himself... Wow.

arguing with my mom.

My mom's sleeping with her pocketbook... Vivion: Right.

...underneath the pillow.

You know, I mean, this is kind of a normal conversation that you can hear throughout a lot of the inner cities in the country.

So, you know, the support for me as a young man wasn't really there, right?

Mm-hmm.

So school -- I leave school.

I go on to the streets.

I run away from home.

I get into hanging out with my friends on the corner and got into the drug game and start trying to deal drugs.

And then I got arrested at Rikers.

I went to Rikers Island the first time.

Wow.

And then it happened again because I still didn't have it together.

As I came out the second time from Rikers Island, it was more of a wake-up call, because now I'm older.

I'm not a -- not a teenager anymore.

How old?

How old?

I was 19 my second time.

Wow, okay.

Right.

First time, 17.

Wow.

Yeah, and that was just horrible, what happened at Rikers Island to me.

Yeah.

I was sexually assaulted.

You know, it was just all that trauma.

So more trauma at home, then more trauma in the criminal-justice system.

And that's how you came of age.

And that's how I came of age.

Vivion: Wow.

And then, you know, so...

So what point do you pick up the camera?

Actually, the second time I came out of Rikers, my probation officer said to me, "You better get a job."

So I got a job working at a shoe polish factory in Bedford-Stuyvesant, and then I would be walking home and in walking home on Bedford Avenue, I-I noticed the Brooklyn Children's Museum, and there was an African-American photojournalist by the name of Buford Smith that was teaching this class on black-and-white photography.

Wow.

And he taught us how to make our own darkroom, and now I move -- I leave my neighborhood and I move into Fort Greene, which was no -- it was no party then.

Right.

But I started using the camera in an amateur way.

I started shooting buildings and trees and -- afraid of people, always afraid of people... Wow.

...and started to shoot.

And so that gave me something more to look forward to than just a job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can create something that's mine.

Even though I was an amateur -- I was an amateur, but -- and -- but that's -- that was the beginning.

I think, you know, I want to bring you into this conversation, Josef, because you're not American.

No.

You are Nigerian-Canadian.

I am.

And so you have actually come of age in this country, I would say.

What -- how old are you now?

29.

You're 29.

You moved here when, what -- 25, 26?

26, a few years ago, yeah.

Yeah, so you came here at such a pivotal age as an artist and as a man.

And your experiences of manhood and American manhood are so different.

And so what is the story you see of the American man, and how did it sort of differ from how you grew up or your upbringing?

I think, coming here from Toronto, Canada, from a Nigerian-Canadian home, very specific, there was a lot more of a welcoming to diversity where I'm coming from in Toronto, yeah.

In Toronto?

Wow.

So coming to New York City specifically, I did see some hostility, but I also saw how well different cultures came together.

Hmm.

But I think, when I look at the American story, it does still feel very segregated.

Hmm.

And -- And in comparison to where I'm coming from, where I wouldn't say, like, racism is nonexistent, but it is not as apparent as it may be in certain parts of America, it kind of opened my eyes a little bit, and I had to really think of things from a different perspective.

In what way?

Like, you came, and suddenly you're viewed as a Black person, and it doesn't matter where you came from, what the origins were.

You're a Black man in America...

Right, right, whereas in -- ...so that suddenly it's yours.

Like, that's your experience.

100%.

Yeah.

Whereas in Toronto, very similar to London, you come from Nigerian origins, you come from Ethiopian origins, you come from Albanian -- Albanian origins...

It's tribal.

...whatever that may be.

I had to kind of adjust to that, and I had to make room for that.

With my storytelling, a lot of it is inspired by my African origins and how that blends with the Western world.

Coming to somewhere like New York, I don't feel like I had to change my storytelling direction per se.

Mm-hmm.

But when you think about the American story in general, there isn't as much room for that story to be told.

When I'm looking to work with brands or I'm on a partnership opportunity, my African origin isn't as important as me being Black.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And that vibrancy that I've always had in me is sort of disappearing in some -- in some ways.

Wow.

I just wish there was more room for -- for -- for that vibrancy.

I wish there was more room for -- for the fluidity with our storytelling, for -- for the fluidity amongst manhood as well.

So I'm still figuring out what that American story is when it comes to the -- the -- the male perspective.

We all are still figuring out, right.

You say, you know, "I'm still figuring out the story," but in reality, like, you two are writing it, Like, that's what artists do.

Like, you're writing that story.

And I think a question that I have -- what I notice, the differences in your work, is that there's this huge generational shift between how men are portrayed.

Joe, you know, you actually told me in a separate conversation at one point, publications didn't want to pick up your work unless they saw a gun or a needle in a photo.

Hmm.

And you know, Josef, with your work, it's a much more tender, sort of heroic, humane portrait of men.

But that tender and humane portrait -- a lot of men these days say that it's emasculating, or they feel, you know, that men are not portrayed as manly any more.

Mm-hmm.

Like, they don't have that sort of strength or that sort of resolve and honesty that is present in your work, Joe.

So what -- what is the difference, and, you know, how do you see that?

Vivion: 'Cause I know you've both interacted with one another's work, so how do you feel about that?

Well, you know, growing up in the inner city of New York City, I think of most teenagers -- you have to have a certain kind of... Grit.

Grit that you can hold onto because it's a tough town to grow up in.

in high school and subways and all these places.

I can't imagine.

I guess I was blessed to understand the feminine side of what it's like, that we all have.

We all have it.

We're just afraid of it, right?

And we're taught not to be that way, right.

Meanwhile, I started doing "East Side Stories: Gang Life in East L.A." I started in 1992.

Well, guess what?

I went back after 20 years.

I went back after 22 years.

Now it's 25 years, where I'm photographing and I'm interviewing these young boys that are now men, who are now fathers, who have changed -- are bus drivers.

They're not gangsters.

Vivion: Wow.

So what I've been trying to tell the editors, from the 1980's on, is that we have a different perspective... Yeah.

...on how to tell the story.

Right.

We're not going to shy away from what the problems are.

If there's gun violence, somebody dies, and the parents are asking me, "Please photograph 'cause it's important."

But there's another side to that story, and it's -- and the story is redemption.

Yeah.

People do change.

Wow.

That's the American narrative.

That's -- That's what we are.

Look at our literature, right?

Right.

Well, you know, that's the thing.

I'll pass it to you, Joseph, because your work... Yeah.

...similarly begins in the home.

I know that you love coming-of-age narratives that are about bedrooms and basketball courts... Yeah.

and really home life, and where does home come in in the story of manhood in your work?

I think the importance of home starts with the root of a lot of our learnings.

A lot of the things we learn begins within the home.

And it's such a sacred space that I feel like a lot of us are authentic, so for me, going back to that home for storytelling is so important because it feels safe.

Mm-hmm.

It feels like a space we can all come together and be our true selves.

And when I'm working with subjects, whether as a photographer or as an image maker -- meaning, like, a creative director or art director... Sure.

I find it extremely important to get to know -- or get to the root of that story.

What happens in this home?

Right.

You know, speaking through even Joseph's work and just knowing how specific his approach may be when working with these talents or subjects, you can tell that a conversation is had prior to taking that shot...

Right.

...or building a book, et cetera.

And I kind of take a hint out of that book with my approach.

So I'm working with kids between the ages of 15 and 22, and I see myself in them.

Right.

So when I'm telling these stories, I think it's so important to know, you know, like, what are you into?

What sports do you play?

How did you grow up?

We were allowed to party at 16?

Right?

What do you get into?

When did you get your first tattoo?

And it really loosens them up because they find someone that they can see themselves in.

And that makes for such a great portrait, or that makes for such a great story.

And most of the time, these NBA legends or A-list celebrities are very welcoming when you meet them where they're at.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, I want to share with you all a quote from "Song of Solomon," which is one of my favorite novels by Toni Morrison.

And it's a novel about a young man coming of age at the age of 32.

And I wanted to bring this quote in because I don't want to have a conversation about manhood absent of women.

Just tell me how you react to it.

I'm gonna read it to you.

So I want -- I want you all to interact with that.

Do men feel suffocated by the love of women?

By maybe expectation or pressures from the outside?

Like, what is that?

In my case...

I can remember... my girlfriend is saying to me, "What are you thinking?"

Yep.

What are you thinking about?

Now I can articulate that.

But then I didn't have the tools to be able to even look into myself.

Hmm.

And a lot of us men really don't have those tools.

What I find is that, when young men don't have the tools, oftentimes what happens is they want to be surrounded by other people who will not force them to speak.

And I find that, like, in a lot of ways -- and you all can push back on this if you want -- Men live in the complicity of silence.

And I've had situations with men that I've met where they'll tell me, "Oh, this guy friend I have, he's going through it."

Like, something with his girlfriend or whatever.

And I was like, "Surely you're gonna intervene.

Surely you're gonna tell him, "Don't walk down the aisle, or "That's the wrong one," or, "You're going the wrong direction in life."

And every time the man would be like, "That's not my business."

Mm-hmm.

And this would be his best friend.

Men will let you live your life, go down the rabbit hole as far as it goes, and they won't reach out for a long time.

Is that real?

I mean, like, do you guys agree, or how do you feel about that?

I think silence prohibits expectations.

Hmm.

Wow.

I think, when you don't hold other people accountable, it allows them to kind of take their own individual lane with any situation.

So not saying anything, so in your situation, when that person has said that's not their business, it allows them to figure it out.

And I'm a victim of that.

Hmm.

I'm -- I'm a victim of keeping myself and restricting myself in a bubble and figuring it out silently because my dad didn't tell me.

Hmm.

He didn't call me out, or my uncle didn't pull me to the side for a conversation, or my little brother didn't, you know, nudge me and say that wasn't right.

So the expectations really falls on me.

And when you're in charge of that, you're in control, and men love control.

We love -- We love self-control.

And a lot of it also brings up the notion of, like, lack of self love.

Hmm.

When you don't want to fix things, you want to keep certain doors open, of course, you're gonna feel suffocated if a woman is giving you too much of it, of -- or -- or if there's expectations at home from your mom or -- or dad or sister or aunt or niece and nephew.

It starts within, and if it -- if it's not existing within, how are you expecting to get it from someone else?

This is a breakthrough moment for me, because women -- I'm -- I'm seeing such a clear binary.

Yeah.

We are interventionists.

It's kind of -- it's -- I think it's a maternal thing.

It's like if you see a child, you know, venturing too far, like my dad -- he would let me go into the deep end of the pool, and if I drowned, he's like, "That's how you learn how to swim."

Hmm.

Whereas, a mother, I'm going to reach in and pull you out because that's so deeply connected.

100%.

But you're telling me it's not out of a lack of love.

The way that men pull themselves back to let you figure it out -- that is a kind of love that men are giving.

Yeah.

Is that what you're saying?

A lot of the time it's -- it's a cycle.

My mind's blown.

It's a cycle.

Like, my father had taught me that, or my father didn't teach me anything at all.

Hmm.

So this is me kind of just playing that soldier role and letting my daughter figure it out in the pool.

What else do I know, you know?

And I lake that self love.

So you're gonna have to figure it out on your own as well.

What does it look like when a man loves himself?

What does that look like in the camera?

You know, what does that look like in -- in your stories?

Is that -- is that a story you see or you're trying to tell?

I can tell you what can change a gang member.

Mm-hmm.

Love.

Marriage.

A child.

Especially a child.

A job.

That's what changes.

Nothing stops a bullet faster than a job.

That self empowerment, yeah.

Number one.

I've seen 15, 16-year-old men change.

Unfortunately, maybe the opportunities that they want to change with aren't necessarily there.

Hmm.

So they might go into the street to deal drugs just to bring money home for the kids.

I mean, this is, you know, well documented.

But love is -- is something that's tricky for us, especially for us men who have grown up without it.

And it took me 20-some-odd years to figure that out through several relationships to find the woman that I live with now and have been married to 22 years.

It took -- took a lot of work.

Took a lot of work.

But -- But I do think that if you love that baby mama, that woman that you married, or the woman that you care about and you have this child together, that can change the narrative big time.

Hmm.

Really can.

Well, on "Generational Anxiety," I love to end the show looking forward.

And so when I think about portraits of manhood, what is the portrait of manhood that you want to paint with your work going forward?

Or what is the one that you want to exist in the world?

What does that look like?

Want it to be -- I want the portrait of manhood to be rather culturally inclusive.

I think it's really important that we use storytelling as a -- as a sense of education, as a place to discover, as a place to rediscover.

And I think with social media, with -- with the Internet, with the relationships and conversations we've been having over the last few decades, we can get to a place where we become a lot more empowering of the cultures globally.

So I would definitely say becoming more culturally inclusive with the storytelling and just providing space and making a way for everyone to feel a part of a story, whether they're embracing a culture they already know or they're gaining education or they're gaining knowledge on a culture they don't know that much about.

Hmm.

So I think it's extremely important to make it inclusive.

Yeah.

Amazing.

And what about you, Joe?

For me, it's about dignity and respect.

Dignity.

There's every -- you can ask the toughest kid in the neighborhood what they care about -- they want to be recognized.

Are we being heard?

Are we being seen?

Right.

Right?

Not through the eyes of "America's Most Wanted" or, you know -- I mean, that's the power that -- that both of us have because we know what we can do with the camera, all right?

Right.

You can destroy a person, or you can help a person.

Right.

I think both of us know that the more we get to know a subject sometimes, it comes out in time.

100%.

It comes out more, you know?

You know, not this, like, "Why do you want to be a gangster?"

No, no, no.

Just wait.

Listen.

And -- And it comes out, because I stay with people.

I'm kind of like this turtle.

I work real slow.

And -- And so working slow gives me the opportunity to revisit people.

Right.

Well, you know, actually, I want to end there -- is that, I think, what -- what a lovely thing would be is to ask you, like, if you could give 17-year-old Josef any advice on manhood, what would it be?

Start anywhere.

There's no rulebook.

There's no right way to approach manhood.

It can be from working out in your bedroom to being a mentor at an after-school program.

Start anywhere.

And like I said earlier, that idea of transitioning from being a boy to a man can happen at any time, and it can happen in instances as well.

So starting anywhere allows you to breathe the experience, and it's beautiful to see what can happen when that transition is created.

It's beautiful to see the stories attached to the transition as well, and it's a wonderful journey, whether you're learning or winning, which is a -- yeah.

Yeah, and I mean, starting anywhere has taken you so far... Oh, yeah.

...that I think that that's a wonderful thing.

What about you, Joe?

What would you tell your 17-year-old self about manhood?

One piece of advice.

Change takes time.

And a lot of not-so-nice things are going to happen in life, but that's life, and so you need to -- Joe, you need to take a look at yourself and try to see if there's another way.

Well, I told you I would ask last, what are you working on now?

I'll start with you, Josef.

I don't want to sound broad or anything like that or vague, but definitely doing a lot of inner work recently.

I started therapy about six months ago.

I love it.

Been going pretty frequently, and it's just helping me communicate a lot better than I've done in the past.

Becoming a lot more -- [ Sighs ] So proud.

Yeah, becoming a lot more warm and inviting to conversations that have to do with family and really close friends, working on my communication, working on my ability to say no, working on my ability to confidently say yes and just setting boundaries as well.

So a lot of inner work as well.

Creatively, I've got some really interesting work in the animation space that I'm slowly working on as well.

You know, NFTs are becoming a big thing and whatnot, and it's not necessarily an NFT, but there's the potential of that.

I'm working on this animated series that tells a story about the African diaspora as it exists in America... Wow.

...with these five kids that form a basketball team and whatnot, so it has its legs.

I'm excited about the journey, and I'm excited to see where it can go, for sure, yeah.

Nice.

Wonderful.

I'm working on just -- oh, actually just finishing editing a 10-year-long project called "Migrantes," which is following Mexican families across the border throughout the United States.

And we started in Michoacan, Mexico, and crossed the border, literally crossed the border through the tunnels and all that other stuff, but it wasn't about that.

It's more about they pick our strawberries here.

They pick our tobacco here.

They, you know, throughout the south, Arkansas, Saint Louis, Arizona, Texas, California.

And so hopefully that'll be a book next year called "Migrants."

So that's what we're working on.

Thank you both so much for being here.

Thank you.

Stick around.

Joseph Rodriguez is going to paint us a portrait of manhood.

Thank you.

When I look at this photograph, it represents a lot of what young boys might be going through right now in the United States with the culture of guns and the way they are being expressed and just sort of availability to guns.

What we're looking at is a little boy with a plastic gun in his hand.

And those were always okay when we were children.

But that plastic gun has now turned into something a lot more sinister, called a real gun.

On my visit to Los Angeles after the Rodney King uprising, I wanted to learn for myself what was on the minds of young gang members and what that culture was like for them and for their families.

So I really wanted to get a conversation going with some of the grandmothers or the family or the mothers or the fathers.

And my -- my question to -- to this grandmother was, "What was it like in 1965 when the riots were in Los Angeles, as opposed to 1992, where there just had been riots in the streets of Los Angeles?"

And she had told me and showed me where she was sitting, watching television with her grandson.

And some gang members came and fired bullets into the house and hit her grandson.

And the bullet went through her grandson to his stomach and hit her in the arm.

And while he's at home and I'm talking to his grandmother, I'm also taking a photograph of little Anthony as he's playing with a toy gun, pointing out of a cartoon that's on television.

And so the photograph leaves me to think, not knowing the family situation, not knowing what his future is gonna be like, "Is he really gonna be okay?

What is going through his mind?

And how will he be able to sort of grow up into a man with the trauma that happened to him and his grandmother?"

And that's what the photograph sort of left me with.

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