(upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to "Prairie Pulse".

Coming up a little bit later in the show, we'll see a unique veterans project called Warriors in the North, but first joining me now is our guest, Dr. Doug Griffin, the chief medical officer at Sanford Health in Fargo.

Dr. Griffin, thanks so much for joining us today.

- Yeah, you're very welcome.

- Of course, as we get started, you know, we're here to talk about COVID, but before we do that, tell the folks a little bit about yourself and maybe your background.

- Yeah, I'm family doctor by training for more than 30 years, caring for patients.

I have now been doing primarily administration role here at Sanford in Fargo as the chief medical officer, and doing a lot of different things in that role in the last six years here.

- Well, unfortunately, COVID's been in the news for way too long, I would probably say, from a standpoint of I wished we could finally get rid of it, but you know, we now have sort of a new player or player in the long-running COVID saga called the Delta variant.

Can you talk about where this originated and how infectious is it?

- Yeah, the Delta variant was first identified in India, and it's a variant, it's basically a mutation, and this happens to all viruses, mutate and form new variants.

It is a more infectious variant than the previous causes of some of the surges that we've seen in this part of the country and elsewhere in the country.

You know, probably two to five times more infectious than some of the previous variants that were predominant - Really?

Okay, well, can you talk a little bit about the difference of how it attacks maybe an unvaccinated person versus a vaccinated person?

- Yeah, really, you know, it attacks in the same way.

It's more about how an unvaccinated person's body responds and a vaccinated person's body responds.

So, the virus, you know, gets in.

We think it's largely airborne transmission, so breathed in, gets in through the mouth or nose and into the lungs, and then begins to start its infectious process.

In a vaccinated person, they recognize this as a foreign substance and they already have antibodies and an immune system geared up to respond to and fight it off.

In an unvaccinated person, it's new to them, and so they don't have that headstart with the immune system primed, and they're more susceptible, then, to actually become ill from the disease.

- Well, okay, we may come back to some of that later, but can you discuss maybe the current bed situation?

You've been in the news this week talking about that, and tell us about the situation at Sanford, and then, are the majority of these people unvaccinated or vaccinated?

- Yeah, a couple of things in there.

First of all, the vast majority, about 90% or close to 90% of our patients hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated, and that's really the trend across the country, that the unvaccinated are much more likely to become ill enough to need hospitalization or worse, and then pass away from it.

The bed, that's just one thing contributing to the bed situation.

We've been very full for the last several weeks with patients of all types, and the other thing that's been increasingly challenging this time around is we are really struggling, even more so with staff.

Staff are tired.

Staff have left healthcare.

They have left and gone to work in other parts of the country for travel organizations.

It's been a very disruptive market, and you've seen the cries for staff for basically all employers around that.

So, that's part of the challenges as well.

So, that's as big a challenge as the physical space.

- Is there any scare or threat of not having enough healthcare workers?

- Absolutely.

I mean, I literally just left a meeting to talk about that and our situations.

We are far from fully staffed.

I'm not sure when, or if we'll ever get back to fully staffed in all sorts of components of healthcare, and we're vastly having to change how we deliver care, finding, you know, extending people, finding new ways to do it.

So, it's a reality.

It's here, and we're very concerned about it.

- Well, we talked about the Delta variant.

Are there other variants we're concerned about?

'Cause I thought I've heard there may be another variant out there.

- Yeah, there's a couple, there's probably even more, but there's two others that have been, that are kind of on a watch list, Lambda and Mu.

They're now using the Greek alphabet to name them.

And they're both, the Delta is listed as a variant of concern in the United States.

I don't think the other two have reached that criteria, but, yep, there are other variants out there that are being watched.

- Okay.

How about the vaccine?

Can you explain or talk about the vaccine hesitancy, and is it frustrating to you?

And can you talk about that?

- Hugely frustrating, I'll say that right off the bat, and I'm not the only person.

Vaccine hesitancy, you know, my work as a family doctor for many years, I had many, many conversations, usually with parents of children hesitant to get their children vaccinated, and some adults hesitant for vaccines as well.

It's really gone to a different level here now, and I think there's become a political component to it, and some other components as well, so it is very frustrating.

I'm not sure I have an explanation for it entirely, but it's a big problem, actually.

- And for people that are vaccinated, can they just go back to business as usual?

Or should they still be careful and, you know, use hand sanitizer and things like that?

- Yes, they still need to be careful.

And you know, unfortunately, it's not.

I can say that if we had had a better uptake in vaccine, we would be closer to being back to normal, or back to normal.

That's our barrier, getting there.

What the vaccine does is it does offer you very, very good protection from needing to be hospitalized or passing away from COVID.

So, the vaccine, somebody once described it, and I thought this was a pretty good description of the vaccine, so when you, if you have an umbrella or a rain coat, and you're going out in a light rain, or even a fairly steady rain, it will keep you dry for the most part.

If you're going out into a drenching thunderstorm or a monsoon, it's gonna leak through in some places, and you'll get a little wet or damp, even though you have a raincoat or an umbrella with you.

Same thing with the vaccine.

When the level of virus is very high, like it is now in our communities, it's not gonna protect you 100%, so you still need to use those precautions, social distancing, masking in indoor public places, and washing hands.

- You know, are there any breakthrough cases, and how many are we seeing statistically maybe?

And sort of, when you do see them, how sick do people actually get?

- Yeah, yes, there are breakthrough cases.

I was just looking, right now in this country, about 189 million people have been fully vaccinated for COVID.

In that, however, just 21,000 have needed to been hospitalized.

That's about a one in 10,000, if I had done my math right.

You're about 30 times more likely, so it's still not super likely to need to be in the hospital if you're not vaccinated, but it's 30 times more likely that you'll end up in the hospital.

And it's even more likely, it's a greater difference in dying than if you're unvaccinated.

So, we are seeing, this is largely a pandemic, right now, driven by unvaccinated people.

- So, do you feel there's been mixed messages to the public from the CDC and from other places?

- Yeah, you know, first of all, the CDC, I think, has done really very good work in this, and we are been at a time where healthcare and what we're learning with healthcare and science has been very, very exposed, very much out in the public, 'cause everybody wants to know about it.

I have to admit, some of the messages and guidance from the CDC have been confusing, even for myself.

We're kind of saying, what does that say?

I kind of understand it, so I think that's a fair, a fair point to make, that some of the messages have been a bit mixed or confusing, and you kind of have to really dig into them to kind of totally understand.

You know, could the communications have been a little bit more clear, perhaps, at time.

That is expected that guidance will change over the time of a pandemic, as we learn and develop more things, so that's not surprising, but I think, perhaps, some of the communication could have been more clear.

- Yeah.

You talked about the vaccination numbers, but has there been any increase in vaccinations because of the Delta variant?

- Yeah, I think there has.

We're seeing that in our state, and I think in other states, that that increase Delta variant cases or cases in general, I think has driven more people to get vaccinated.

- At this point, I'm sure there's a segment of the population that will, well, do you believe that will never get vaccinated?

- Likely, yes.

You know, there continues to be a percentage that says, regardless or whatever, they will not get vaccinated, so I think that's probably true.

I think our goal just needs to be to make that as small of a portion as possible.

- Of course, everybody has the right to make a choice, but what's sort of your answer to why to get vaccinated?

- Yeah, I think this is different.

The vaccine is a public health measure, so if you choose not to take the vaccine, you're making a choice for everybody else as well, because you're putting the everybody else's health at risk as well, too, because you can very well transmit it, continue to propagate this.

It's different than making a choice if you should have a heart surgery or take a blood pressure medication.

It's different than that, so I agree that there is some personal component to it, but I think there's a personal responsibility to help everybody else in the community.

- What about the vaccine for ages five through 11?

When will that be readily available?

- Yeah, it's being reviewed right now by the FDA this month.

We're eagerly awaiting what I hear is perhaps towards the end of October we'll have an emergency youth authorization for the Johnson & Johnson for that five to 11 age group.

- Do you expect a vaccine hesitancy to sort of accompany that among the parents of that age group?

- Well, yes, yes, I do, to some extent right now.

We've had vaccine availability for that 12 to 17 age group.

Now adolescents and teenagers notoriously are not great about getting vaccines.

What a surprise.

But I do anticipate that there'll be some scrutiny by parents for the five to 11 year olds.

I've talked to at least one pediatrician expert, thinking that actually the hesitancy might be, we might have a little better uptake in that group, because they're more likely to do what mom and dad say in that group.

But I think there will be some hesitancy in that, but I also know there are many parents that are eager, eager for this to come, and this is a group that are going to school now.

They're out in the public and getting ill, so I think there's a large percentage of people that are eager to have their children vaccinated.

- Now, there are some people already getting a booster, so let's talk about that a little bit.

You know, who's recommended to get a booster, and maybe who does not need it?

- Yeah, good question, another thing that can be a little bit confusing for things.

First of all, a third dose, or a booster, is recommended for immunocompromised people at this point in time for both the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccines.

Just recently, for the Pfizer vaccine, the CDC has recommended that boosters be given to those 65 or older, those patients that are in that 18 to 65 age group with underlying health conditions, of which there are several that they define, and people at high risk for occupational exposure.

That would be healthcare workers, people that work in congregate living settings, people that are perhaps teachers as well, too, so several groups.

So, there's a large portion, and that's for the Pfizer vaccine only.

Still waiting for more direction for Moderna and J&J on that.

- Okay, but that will be coming also, you believe?

- I anticipate that it will be.

Both have applied and their data is being looked at now as well.

- Can you talk a little bit about, a big issue has been masking.

You know, the balancing school, you know, about how they're doing that, whether you're on a plane, whether you're in school.

Talk about the masking recommendations.

- Yeah, and that's one of the things, I know, 'cause the CDC, you know, initially, when you were fully vaccinated, you could go without a mask, and then, now, with the large transmission, it's been recommended to wear masks in indoor public spaces, regardless of whether you're vaccinated.

First of all, I have great respect for our school districts and public educators and private educators and our school board members, and I have great sympathy for the difficulty in decisions.

However, I do think the science is really quite clear, and I, as a person of science, my recommendation, and I commend the districts that have done this, is that all students and staff should be masked in school at this point in time, based on recommendations from CDC, American Academy of Pediatrics, our own public health.

I think it's not necessarily popular with a lot of parents and family, but I think that's the right thing to do.

Now, operability of that and the challenges that it presents, I am very sympathetic to, but I think that's the right thing to do.

And several schools have chosen that route.

- Well, I read in the news that Los Angeles was talking about a strict mask mandate about going into a bar, a gym, a nail salon, or even a Lakers game, that you have to be fully vaccinated, but how would you even police that?

I know it's not your job, but yeah.

- Right.

Yeah, there are a variety of things that are being developed by different state governments to identify.

I mean, we, you know, we identify people of age to serve alcohol in a bar.

You need to present your driver's license or something to get on a plane.

I think there are probably ways to operationalize it.

I don't know exactly how it is, but you know, in a large city like Los Angeles, a big undertaking, I agree.

- Well, we talked about herd immunity back a year ago and wanting to reach herd immunity.

Is that still an issue, or are we aspiring to that still?

- Yeah, you know, as I talk to some of the infectious disease folks that are far smarter on this than I am, is that that may not be something that we attain.

What we may be dealing with was a disease that's endemic, and our best, like the influenza, our best chance would be more to control it.

So, I'm not sure that's totally out of the realm, but the longer we go at this point in time, I think the more likely we're dealing with something that is gonna be with us for a long, long time, and we'll just learn to live with it in many ways.

- So, real quick for the public, what would you say if they're still holding off on getting the vaccine?

- Yeah, I would say, first of all, please get the vaccine.

I think get good information about the vaccine.

This has been an epidemic of misinformation throughout the pandemic, for some reason.

Talk to your doctor, get information from reputable sources, CDC, FDA, professional organizations.

- And with that said, if people want more information, where can they go?

- Yeah, you can certainly visit our website, the CDC website, Cass County Public Health, lots of different places offering good information.

- All right.

Well, Doctor Griffin, thanks so much for joining us today.

- Yeah, you're very welcome.

- Stay tuned for more.

(upbeat music) Warriors in the North features an event where veterans with trauma design masks that reflect their experiences or recoveries from those experiences.

The project is a joint effort between the Fargo Veterans Affairs healthcare system and the Historical and Cultural Society of Clay County in Morehead.

(solemn music) - With PTSD, we have a trauma or traumas that's been avoided for months, maybe years, because it's an experience that was so upsetting that it was difficult to process it emotionally.

PTSD, by definition, is an illness of avoidance, so people will have a hard time wanting to talk about an experience or they avoid things that will remind them of that experience.

So, today we're at the Fargo VA, getting ready for an event that we've been doing here for several years, but the first time now in about a year and a half.

Because of COVID, we've had to put this on pause, but we are preparing for a mask-making event.

We've invited veterans who have trauma histories to come and design a mask in the image of something that reflects their trauma experience or their recovery from that experience.

- I'm here, not because of one thing, but because of a whole lot of things.

My mask is a reflection in layers of my nice, calm life as a kid, growing up in the military, through the initial experiences in the Army, and when I came back from my third tour in Vietnam, I went through deep depression.

I was suicidal at times.

That's another cover.

That's the black line that goes right through there.

And it wasn't until I wound up here in Fargo at the VA in 2010 that I really got into some decent programs here.

They helped me to understand why I was the way I was.

And so, in the tail end of it, it's a happier set of colors.

And as I'm now approaching 80 years old, I'm at peace.

- And so, the talk therapies that we do are typically reaching the parts of the brain where the trauma is stored verbally, where they can actually put words to the experience.

But trauma is also stored in parts of our brain where we don't have access verbally, and through artistic, creative forms of therapy, in a sense, we can get access to those regions of our brain and process in a different way that can help dealing with, addressing, and healing from a traumatic experience.

Most of them will be new to this whole experience.

They will all have had some exposure to a trauma-focused treatment.

They've been referred by their treatment provider here, generally.

And there will be a few that have been here before and who've found this experience very therapeutic and want to come back and do another mask.

Anywhere from Iraq and Afghanistan veterans to Vietnam-era veterans, so a large age range, all veterans, all with trauma history and trauma treatment history.

Some of them will have ideas already in their minds, what they want to put on the mask.

Others will have no idea, and will just kind of be inspired by the time that we give them to do this.

Whatever they need, whatever it could be helpful to them, we'll be, as staff, walking around assisting if anybody wants some assistance or has some questions, and we'll basically give them three hours to do that.

- This one here, it symbolizes the hurt from within and trying to get out.

The chain around it is keeping it in.

It's like I'm being held within myself.

There's so much that has yet got to be said, but it's hard to say it, because we just can't open up, 'cause it's just embedded so deep, with so much pain.

And it's always there, always there.

Talking about it like this is very hard for me to find the words, and like these ladies here that come and help me all the time, and without them, I would be lost, totally lost, 'cause when I came here, 20, 30, some years ago, I was an angry individual and very, very lost, and they helped me and they're continuing helping me.

- As an option, we ask them if they're comfortable or if they feel compelled to actually write the story behind their mask, so that it gives the observer a little bit more information and background about kind of the meaning behind their mask, if they fully understand it at that point.

- So, I've been wanting to do this for about a year now, and so I've had a lot of time to think about how to represent my feelings.

Well, I got white and black on the mask, and so the black is all the cracks, and it's hard to see, 'cause it's covered up with all the white.

The white represents how other people look at me.

They might not see the scars or all the cracks that I have on the inside, so that's why I kind of covered them up.

But once people get to know you a little bit better, some of those things start showing through.

So, on the backside, it's all clear.

You know, you can see all the cracks and everything, because that's what a lot of people don't see.

Maybe one day, my mask won't be so hidden.

I believe I'm on the right path now, but it's just, it's a long road.

- I recently heard a veteran who did a mask a couple years ago.

He finds it a great conversation starter for people to be able to share his story, and a friend actually noticed something in the mask that he hadn't noticed before, and he kind of had a realization of why he made the face, why that he made the mouth the way that he did after she asked him some questions.

So, it can actually be, kind of, you can gain insight, actually, years after creating the mask through conversations.

It's very rewarding, and it would bring tears to my eyes to think about it, actually, so it's a powerful experience.

- Well, that's all we have on "Prairie Pulse", and as always, thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] Funded by the Minnesota Arts and Cultural Heritage Fund with money from the vote of the people of Minnesota on November 4th, 2008, and by the members of Prairie Public.