ANNOUNCER: WASHINGTON, THE FATHER OF OUR COUNTRY; LINCOLN, THE GREAT EMANCIPATOR; FDR, THE HAPPY WARRIOR; REAGAN, THE GREAT COMMUNICATOR.

WHAT WILL BE THE LEGACY, THE UNDERSTANDING, BOTH BY HISTORIANS AND IN OUR POPULAR CULTURE, OF THE PRESIDENCY OF BARACK OBAMA, PARTICULARLY, LOOKING AT AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD?

WHAT DID THIS TRANSFORMATIONAL PRESIDENT DELIVER ON HIS PROMISES OF HOPE AND CHANGE?

PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD CAMPAIGNED IN STARK AND OFTEN HARSH CONTRAST TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY POLICIES PUT IN PLACE BY HIS PREDECESSOR, GEORGE W. BUSH.

BUT IN OFFICE, OBAMA FACED CRITICISM, BOTH FROM THOSE WHO THOUGHT HE HAD CHANGED TOO MUCH OF THE BUSH DOCTRINE AND THOSE WHO THOUGHT HE HAD CHANGED NOT NEARLY ENOUGH.

WAS THERE AN OBAMA DOCTRINE?

HOW WILL HISTORY JUDGE THE OBAMA IMPACT ON WORLD AFFAIRS?

AND HOW MUCH CONTINUITY VERSUS CHANGE WILL WE SEE IN THE ADMINISTRATION OF DONALD TRUMP?

THIS EPISODE OF "THE WHOLE TRUTH" WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY... PHILADELPHIA'S HISTORIC DISTRICT IS BEST KNOWN AS AMERICA'S BIRTHPLACE.

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THE OATH REFLECTS THE WISDOM THAT FAILING TO TELL ALL OF A STORY CAN BE AS EFFECTIVE AS LYING IF YOUR GOAL IS TO MAKE THE FACTS SUPPORT YOUR POINT OF VIEW.

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ALL OF THESE APPLY TO THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION, WHAT JOHN STUART MILL CALLED "THE MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS."

THIS SERIES IS A PLACE IN WHICH THE COMPETING VOICES ON THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES OF OUR TIME ARE CHALLENGED AND SET INTO MEANINGFUL CONTEXT SO THAT VIEWERS LIKE YOU CAN DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES THE WHOLE TRUTH.

IN THE 2008 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN, MUCH OF BARACK OBAMA'S PROMISE OF HOPE AND CHANGE WAS ABOUT AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD.

THE PRE-ELECTION PROPOSED OBAMA DOCTRINE WAS A FIERY REACTION AGAINST THE BUSH DOCTRINE WHICH HAD COMMITTED THE UNITED STATES TO TWO LAND WARS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN AND TO A TRULY GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR.

THE BUSH DOCTRINE HAD INVOLVED TRILLIONS IN SO-CALLED EMERGENCY FUNDS BUT ACTUALLY PERMANENT FUNDS, EXTRA SPENDING, AND HAD LED TO AN ENORMOUS STRENGTHENING OF THE POWERS OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATE AT HOME.

PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ELECTED, IN MANY WAYS, TO DO WHAT THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IN 1972, SENATOR GEORGE McGOVERN, HAD PROMISED TO DO IN THE WAKE OF THE INTERNAL STRIFE IN THE UNITED STATES OVER THE VIETNAM WAR-- MAINLY, BRING AMERICA HOME.

THE PRESIDENT PROPOSED TO RESET AMERICAN RELATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, MOST ESPECIALLY THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE MUSLIM MIDDLE EAST, BUT ALSO BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND VLADIMIR PUTIN'S RUSSIA.

EVEN BEYOND THAT, HE EXPRESSED A DESIRE TO CHANGE LONGSTANDING POLICIES AND APPROACHES TOWARDS IRAN AND CUBA.

IN OFFICE, PRESIDENT OBAMA DID END THE MAJOR COMBAT OPERATIONS IN WHICH HIS PREDECESSOR HAD INVOLVED THE UNITED STATES, DID REACH A CONTROVERSIAL NEGOTIATED DEAL WITH IRAN ABOUT ITS NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM, DID REOPEN FORMAL RELATIONS WITH CUBA, AND DID ADDRESS MAJOR MULTILATERAL ISSUES OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

BY THE CLOSE OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, AMERICANS WERE INVOLVED, HOWEVER, IN ONGOING MILITARY OPERATIONS MOSTLY FROM THE AIR IN 8 NATIONS SIMULTANEOUSLY.

MANY DANGERS IN THE WORLD REMAINED PERHAPS BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES SPOKE MORE SOFTLY ABOUT OUR SELF-DESCRIBED EXCEPTIONALISM.

INDEED, IT SEEMS HARD TO ARGUE THAT THE WORLD DID NOT BECOME MORE DANGEROUS ON PRESIDENT OBAMA'S WATCH, PARTICULARLY IN VIEW OF REVANCHIST AND EXPANSIONIST POSTURES BEING ADOPTED BY RUSSIA, CHINA, NORTH KOREA, AND IRAN, AND THE RISE OF ISIS.

SO WHAT IS THE OBAMA LEGACY IN WORLD AFFAIRS, AND HOW MUCH SHOULD PRESIDENT TRUMP DEVIATE FROM IT IN SEEKING A MORE SECURE AMERICA AND A MORE PEACEFUL WORLD?

HERE TO DISCUSS THESE QUESTIONS ON TODAY'S EPISODE OF "THE WHOLE TRUTH" ARE ZACK BEAUCHAMP, WORLD CORRESPONDENT FOR VOX.COM, TRUDY RUBIN, THE WORLDVIEW COLUMNIST FOR "THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER," THOMAS WRIGHT, A FELLOW AND PROJECT DIRECTOR AT THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION, AND PHYLLIS BENNIS, A FELLOW AT THE INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES.

WELCOME, ALL, AND THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

PEOPLE OF BERLIN AND PEOPLE OF THE WORLD, THE SCALE OF OUR CHALLENGE IS GREAT, THE ROAD AHEAD WILL BE LONG.

BUT I COME BEFORE YOU TO SAY THAT WE ARE HEIRS TO A STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM.

WE ARE A PEOPLE OF IMPROBABLE HOPE WITH AN EYE TOWARD THE FUTURE, WITH RESOLVE IN OUR HEART.

LET US REMEMBER THIS HISTORY AND ANSWER OUR DESTINY AND REMAKE THE WORLD ONCE AGAIN.

THANK YOU, BERLIN.

GOD BLESS YOU.

[CHEERING AND APPLAUSE] THANK YOU.

NOW, UH, TO ROLL THE CLOCK BACK, UH, REMEMBERING BERLIN, UH, IN 2008, THE HOPE AND CHANGE THEME, UH, IN HIS CAMPAIGN, WHEN, UH, BARACK OBAMA WAS RUNNING IN 2008, ANTI-AMERICANISM IS SPREADING LIKE WILDFIRE.

THIS IS THE HEIGHT OF THE IRAQ WAR.

THE UNITED STATES WAS SEEN AS A--A COWBOY IMPERIALIST DETERMINED TO IMPOSE ITS WILL ON THE WORLD THROUGH THE USE OF MILITARY FORCE.

TWO PRINCIPLE MILITARY PROJECTS THAT HE HAS INHERITED IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN ARE APPARENTLY FAILING TO ACHIEVE THEIR STATED OBJECTIVES.

UH, IN THIS HOLE, UH, PRESIDENT OBAMA STOPS DIGGING, THEY SAY, AND STARTS, UH, CLIMBING, RAISING THE INTERNATIONAL STATURE OF THE UNITED STATES AMONG THE WORLD'S PEOPLES AND CONSERVING AMERICAN TREASURE AND BLOOD BY WHAT CAME TO BE KNOWN AS THE OBAMA PRINCIPLE OF NOT DOING STUPID STUFF.

"NOT DOING STUPID STUFF."

UH, IS THIS, UH, SIMPLY NON FOREIGN POLICY, WOULD YOU SAY, OR IS THERE AN OBAMA DOCTRINE THAT-- THAT YOU CAN IDENTIFY WITH, UH, OR IS THIS A KIND OF, UH, I WOULD SAY TRANSITION IN AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY THAT, UH, WILL, UH, BE--BE OF LITTLE CONSEQUENCE?

WHAT'S THE FINGERPRINT THAT YOU SEE HERE, ZACK?

SO MY VIEW OF IT IS THAT OBAMA, UH, INHERITED A SERIES OF CRISES.

NOT ONLY INHERITED, BUT THEN ONCE IN OFFICE, EXPERIENCED A SERIES OF VERY INTENSE CRISES, MOST NOTABLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST WITH THE ARAB SPRING, AND THEN THE RISE OF ISIS.

AND THE PRESIDENT WAS THROWN INTO A SERIES OF SITUATIONS THAT HE WAS FORCED TO MANAGE AND HAD VERY LITTLE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEARHEAD DRAMATIC NEW CHANGES TO FOREIGN POLICY.

SO THE RESULT, ESSENTIALLY, AS YOU PUT IT, WAS ABOUT THE POST-WAR ORDER, ABOUT THE BROAD ARC OF THE AMERICAN-LED FOREIGN POLICY SYSTEM.

PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD AS HIS FIRST MISSION, FROM WHAT YOU CAN TELL FROM LISTENING TO HIS ADVISORS AND HIS OWN COMMENTS, MAINTAINING AND SUPPORTING AND DEFENDING THIS SYSTEM AGAINST THE DAMAGE THAT HAD BEEN DONE TO IT BY GEORGE W. BUSH-- BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION.

THAT IS, THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S UNILATERALISM, ITS AGGRESSIVE USE OF FORCE, ITS CONTRAVENTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS, AND THE 2008 FINANCIAL CRISIS CREATED THE MOST SERIOUS, SERIOUS THREAT TO THIS ORDER SINCE THEN.

AND THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DID A FAIRLY ADMIRABLE JOB WITH WHAT IT HAD ATTEMPTING TO DEFEND THIS--THIS ORDER FROM THREATS OF FINANCIAL COLLAPSE AND RADICAL CHANGE THAT WERE HAPPENING AGAINST IT.

EISENHOWER: GOOD.

TRUDY?

RUBIN: UH, I THINK THAT THE OPERATIVE PHRASE FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, UH, INSTEAD OF "DON'T DO STUPID STUFF" IS REALLY THE "LEAD FROM BEHIND."

EISENHOWER: YEAH, YEAH.

LEADS TO A SECOND QUESTION-- YEAH, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHERE I THINK, UH, WHEN OBAMA CAME INTO OFFICE, HE UNDERSTOOD RIGHTLY, UH, THAT THE U.S. PUBLIC WAS FED UP WITH WARS, UH, IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND SOUTH ASIA THAT NEVER SEEM TO END.

BUT IT WAS NOT JUST THAT HE WANTED TO GET OUT OF THOSE WARS.

HE CAME IN WITH A WORLD VIEW THAT SAID THE U.S. COULD NO LONGER SHAPE EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD AND HAD FAILED MISERABLY AT NATION-BUILDING.

AND SO HIS BROAD VIEW, UH, RESTED ON THE IDEA THAT YOU SHOULD CEMENT ALLIANCES AND GET YOUR ALLIES TO DO MORE, AND--AND CEMENT INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND THE RULES-BASED SYSTEM OF THE POST-WORLD WAR II ERA.

SO GET INSTITUTIONS, GLOBAL INSTITUTIONS, TO DO MORE, WITH THE U.S.

PUSHING FROM THE REAR.

UH, I--HE--HE CARRIED THAT OUT TO A T, UH, AND I THINK BY SO DOING AT THE LEVEL THAT HE DID DO IT, CONVINCED A LOT OF PLAYERS IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING MR. PUTIN AND PROBABLY XI JINPING, THAT THE U.S. REALLY WAS RETREATING, ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT HE INTENDED.

AND, IN FACT, FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, HE DID DO A LOT IN TERMS OF FIGHTING ISIS.

YEAH, I THINK, UH, PRESIDENT OBAMA, WHEN HE CAME INTO OFFICE, HAD A VERY CLEAR SORT OF IDEA, UM, OF WHAT HE WANTED TO ACCOMPLISH.

AND I THINK WHAT-- WHAT HE WANTED TO DO, UM, WAS TO PULL BACK FROM THE WARS AND--IN IRAQ, IN PARTICULAR, AND LATER, UM, IN AFGHANISTAN-- AND TO RALLY THE WORLD TO FOCUS ON, YOU KNOW, TRANSNATIONAL ISSUES, THINGS THAT, UH, COUNTRIES HAD IN COMMON LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE, COUNTERTERRORISM, UM, PANDEMICS, AND OTHER ISSUES.

AND THEN HE ALSO WANTED, UH, TO SHIFT POLICY IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND TO FOSTER SORT OF INDIGENOUS CHANGE.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT THE CAIRO SPEECH WAS ABOUT, TRYING TO PROMOTE INDIGENOUS FORCES WITHIN THESE SOCIETIES.

I'VE COME HERE TO CAIRO TO SEEK A NEW BEGINNING BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD, ONE BASED ON MUTUAL INTEREST AND MUTUAL RESPECT.

AND ONE BASED UPON THE TRUTH THAT AMERICA AND ISLAM ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE AND NEED NOT BE IN COMPETITION.

INSTEAD, THEY OVERLAP AND SHARE COMMON PRINCIPLES, PRINCIPLES OF JUSTICE AND PROGRESS, TOLERANCE, AND THE DIGNITY OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS.

BUT WHAT HE FOUND OUT--WHAT HE-- WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING, UM, WAS THAT IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THOSE DREAMS OF CONVERGENCE COLLAPSED AFTER THE FAILURE OF THE ARAB AWAKENING.

UM, THE HOPES OF BRINGING RUSSIA INTO THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER COLLAPSED WHEN PUTIN CAME BACK TO POWER IN 2012, AND THE AFTEREFFECTS OF THE FINANCIAL CRI-CRISIS SAW A RETURN OF SORT OF STRATEGIC AND GEOPOLITICAL COMPETITION.

AND SO LATER IN HIS SECOND TERM, UM, HE ENDED UP WHERE THERE WAS THIS QUITE LARGE DISCONNECT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE YOU BEGIN TO SEE, UH, MORE CLEARLY SORT OF HE--HE'S TRYING TO SORT OF AVOID OR PULL BACK FROM SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS BECAUSE HE'S SORT OF GIVEN UP THAT HE CAN SHAPE THEM.

SO IN THE MIDDLE EAST, HE-- HE BASICALLY ENDS UP SAYING IT'S A HOPELESS LOST CAUSE.

THERE'S REALLY NO OPPORTUNITIES THERE, AND WE OUGHT TO LIMIT OUR EXPOSURE, UH, TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT TONE THAN 2009, BUT IT'S ESSENTIALLY, I THINK, THE, UH, THE--HIS-- HIS SORT OF SENSE THAT HE'S DISAPPOINTED.

YOU KNOW, HE'S DISAPPOINTED-- SORT OF WILSONIANISM, IN A WAY.

YEAH, DISAPPOINTED IN THE FAILURE OF THE-- OF THE WORLD, OR KEY PARTS OF THE WORLD, TO--TO EVOLVE IN THE WAY THAT HE-- THAT HE HOPED WOULD-- WOULD SORT OF REINFORCE U.S. STRATEGY AND WOULD CREATE THIS GREATER COOPERATION.

DISAPPOINTED IN THE EUROPEANS.

YOU KNOW, DISAPPOINTED IN THE CHINESE.

AND SO HE'S STILL MAINTAINING A VERY INTERNATIONALIST, UH, POSITION, BUT IT TENDS TO BE, UH, MORE REACTIVE, I THINK, BY 2016.

EISENHOWER: PHYLLIS, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

BENNIS: WELL, I THINK THAT THERE'S--WHEN WE THINK ABOUT OBAMA'S LEGACIES, THERE'S REALLY TWO LEGACIES THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH-- THERE'S THE ASPIRATIONAL AND THE REAL.

I THINK THE-- THE CAIRO SPEECH THAT TOM REFERRED TO WAS VERY MUCH A REFLECTION OF HIS ASPIRATIONAL, UH, LEGACY THAT HE WAS LAYING OUT RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF HIS TERM, AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS EXACTLY ABOUT PULLING BACK.

I THINK IT WAS ABOUT PULLING BACK MILITARILY, AND I THINK THAT WAS THE PART THAT DIDN'T ULTIMATELY HAPPEN.

IF WE LOOK AT WHAT THE LEGACY IS GOING TO BE IN THE FUTURE, I THINK IT'S LIKELY THAT TWO OF THE--THE KEY THINGS OF PRESIDENT OBAMA'S LEGACY WILL BE THOSE THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE CONTEXT OF NOT LISTENING TO THOSE WHO SAID THERE NEED TO BE INTERNATIONAL MILITARY-- U.S.-LED MILITARY FORCES BUT RATHER THAT-- THAT ASSERTED DIPLOMACY OVER WAR.

SO, PARTICULARLY, SOMEWHAT AROUND CUBA, ABOUT THE BEGINNING OF THE PROCESS OF NORMALIZATION OF CUBA, BUT MOST ESPECIALLY THE IRAN DEAL WHERE THERE WAS ENORMOUS PRESSURE NOT TO DEAL WITH THAT AS A-- AS A DIPLOMATIC QUESTION, AS A NEGOTIATED QUESTION BUT RATHER TO RAMP UP MILITARY THREATS, ET CETERA, AND THOSE ARE GONNA BE THE THINGS THAT SUCCEEDED.

SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK BETWEEN THE ASPIRATIONAL, UH, NON-MILITARIZED LEGACY THAT HE HOPED FOR AND HIS ACTUAL LEGACY, WHICH IS VERY MUCH THAT OF A WAR PRESIDENT.

SO YOU'VE LINED-- YOU'VE OUTLINED-- I THINK THIS IS A FASCINATING CONCEPT-- THE ASPIRATIONAL, UH, SIDE--SIDE OF OBAMA.

NOW, ASPIRATION MEETS TEST OF EXPERIENCE.

IF YOU'RE EVALUATING A FOREIGN POLICY, YOU'RE LOOKING AT ADVERSARIES WE'RE FACING WHEN HE--WHEN HE ENTERS OFFICE.

WE'RE NOW LOOKING AT ADVERSARIES, UH, AS HE LEAVES OFFICE.

WE'RE ASKING OURSELVES WHETHER WE'RE BETTER OFF, UH, VIS-A-VIS THESE ADVERSARIES, UH, THAN WE WERE, UH, AS HE TAKES OFFICE.

ALONG THE WAY, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A--A LOT OF SITUATIONS, A LOT OF PARTICULARS, UH, AND I THINK THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH THESE, UH, NOW IN THIS TRANSITION PERIOD IN AMERICA-- FOR INSTANCE, UH, THE SYRIAN RED LINE.

UH, I THINK THAT THIS HAS BEEN, UH, MENTIONED AS A-- ONE OF THE, UH, REGRETS-- AM I RIGHT ABOUT THIS-- REGRETS OF--OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

THE SYRIAN RED LINE-- I'M ALSO THINKING OF THE RUSSIAN RESET.

I'M THINKING OF THE PIVOT TO ASIA.

BY THE WAY, THIS IS VERY VIVID IMAGERY-- WE'RE RESETTING AND PIVOTING.

UH, WE'RE DOING A LOT OF THINGS, UH, THAT SUGGEST A LOT OF MOTION.

UH...

I MEAN, IT-- THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES WHEN THE U.S. IS NOT THE LEADING POWER, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT OBAMA DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.

BECAUSE IT IS ALL VERY WELL TO CALL FOR AND TRY TO FACILITATE A RULES-BASED INTERNATIONAL ORDER, BUT THE PROBLEM IS IF NOBODY IS, UH, BEHIND IT.

IF THERE IS NO STRONG POWER BEHIND IT, IT CRUMBLES, AS WE ARE SEEING NOW.

BUT WHEN IT--AGAIN, WHEN IT COMES TO THE RED LINE, PEOPLE HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SOME STRONG POWER OR COLLECTION OF POWERS WHO ARE WILLING TO PUT A LID ON THINGS.

OTHERWISE, AS WE SEE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, THINGS FALL APART.

SO YOU GET CHAOS.

IF THE U.S. IS NOT SEEN AS A STRONG FORCE-- AND IN THAT CASE, IF IT IS SEEN, IT CAN DO DEALS.

IF IT ISN'T SEEN AS A STRONG FORCE, IT CAN'T DO DIPLOMACY, AND IT CAN'T STOP CONFLICT.

EISENHOWER: YEAH?

IF I WANTED TO PINPOINT SOMETHING THAT MADE-- UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION THAT MADE THE WORLD MORE DANGEROUS, I WOULD POINT TO ITS-- ITS MORE RECKLESS USES OF FORCE.

UH, ITS--UH, FOR INSTANCE, THE DRONE POLICY IN PAKISTAN, IN AFGHANISTAN, AND THE GENERAL COMMITMENT TO CONTINUING IN ONGOING COUNTERTERRORISM CAMPAIGNS THAT ARE OPEN-ENDED.

I THINK THAT ITS CONDUCT TOWARDS RUSSIA WAS ACTUALLY QUITE DEFENSIBLE.

I KNOW IT GETS A LOT OF FLACK, BUT IF YOU GO BACK TO THE RESET, IT PRODUCED A NUCLEAR ARMS TREATY, WHICH WAS QUITE SUCCESSFUL.

AND THEN WHEN PUTIN-- FOR REASONS ESSENTIALLY OF DOMESTIC INSTABILITY-- INVADED UKRAINE, IT RESPONDED BY ISOLATING RUSSIA, AND THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY TANKED AS A RESULT.

UH, AND PUTIN IS, UH, IN A WEAK POSITION.

HIS ACTIONS COME OUT OF THE FACT THAT RUSSIA IS A DECLINING POWER WITH LIMITED CONVENTIONAL MILITARY CAPABILITIES.

AND TO OVERREACT AND TO, UH, YOU KNOW, RESPOND IN SOME MORE CONFRONTATIONAL WAYS RATHER THAN THROUGH DIPLOMACY AND MARSHALING U.S. ALLIANCE SYSTEMS, INTERNATIONAL SANCTIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN FAR MORE DANGEROUS.

FIRST, SIMPLY BECAUSE IT'S RECEDING DOESN'T MEAN IT'S, UH, NOT DANGEROUS.

IN FACT, RECEDING POWERS ARE OFTEN MORE DANGEROUS.

LOOKING FORWARD NOW, BEYOND--BEYOND OBAMA, UH, AGAIN WE HAVE A-- A SORT OF UNIVERSE OF ADVERSARIES OR THREATS OUT THERE.

WE HAVE ACTIONS.

WE NOW HAVE AT THE END OF 8 YEARS OF AN OBAMA PRESIDENCY A NEW, UH, LINEUP OF CHALLENGES AND THREATS, AND I DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE'RE IN A BETTER POSITION OR NOT.

I COME BACK TO YOUR POINT, PHYLLIS, ABOUT ASPIRATIONS.

UH, I BELIEVE THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA DID HAVE A CONCEPT OF AN INTERNATIONAL ORDER THAT--THAT RESOLVED PROBLEMS IN AN INTERNATIONAL WAY, A MULTILATERAL WAY.

UH, PROBLEMS SUCH AS STABILITY OR REGIONAL STABILITY, UH, PROBLEMS SUCH AS CLIMATE CHANGE, TRADE.

TRADE AND REGIONAL INTEGRATION.

UH, HERE WE ARE IN A TRANSITION PERIOD.

WE SEE E.U., UH, IS, UH, NOW BEGINNING TO FRAGMENT.

UH, WE ARE--WE'VE RAISED BASIC QUESTIONS ABOUT THE, UH, NAFTA, UH, AND OUR OWN, UH, INTEGRATION IN THE NORTH AMERICAN AREA.

WE SEE, EXACTLY AS TOM HAS SUGGESTED, UH, A MOVE TOWARDS SORT OF NATIONAL-- UH, SORT OF A NATIONAL ENVIRONMENT.

CERTAINLY NATIONS ARE ACTING LIKE NATIONS IN ASIA, PERHAPS LESS SO IN EUROPE, BUT, UH, NOW WE HAVE BREXIT.

HOW'S THIS GONNA LOOK 20 YEARS FROM NOW-- UH, ASPIRATIONS, REALITY, LEGACY?

I THINK THAT WE MAY LOOK BACK AND SEE THAT THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY WAS AT A TRANSITIONAL MOMENT WHERE WE DO SEE AROUND THE WORLD--AND THE U.S. IS NOT INVULNERABLE TO THIS-- THIS, UH, PULLING BACK FROM WHAT HAD BEEN THE DEFINITION OF WHAT INTERNATIONAL CONNECTIONS LOOK LIKE.

THE--THE KIND OF GLOBALIZATION THAT BENEFITED CORPORATIONS FAR MORE THAN PEOPLE, WHERE YOU HAD FREE MOVEMENT OF CAPITAL, FREE MOVEMENT OF GOODS, BUT NO FREE MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE.

THAT WAS NOT EVER GOING TO BE SUSTAINABLE.

AND IN AN ERA WHERE FAR MORE PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD-- INCLUDING SOME VERY POOR PEOPLE WHO NEVER HAD ACCESS TO INTERNATIONAL INFORMATION, TIES, CONNECTIONS-- SUDDENLY BECAUSE OF SOCIAL MEDIA, BECAUSE OF THE RISE OF CELL PHONE TECHNOLOGY IN MANY PLACES, NOW PEOPLE CAN BE IN TOUCH SO THAT THAT IS NO LONGER CONSIDERED THE ONLY OPTION.

THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT RENEGOTIATING NAFTA, UH, DONALD TRUMP MAY HAVE ONE VISION OF WHAT THAT MEANS, BUT FOR AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE IN MEXICO, IN THE UNITED STATES, IN CANADA, NAFTA HAS BEEN A DISASTER.

NOT BECAUSE BORDERS WERE-- WERE, UH, OPEN TO EVERYBODY, BUT PRECISELY BECAUSE BORDERS WERE CLOSED TO PEOPLE AND ONLY OPENED TO CAPITAL AND GOODS, AND THAT'S AN INHERENTLY UNFAIR MODEL.

IF WE LOOK AT WHAT A REAL INTERNATIONALISM IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE, IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO INVOLVE THE ABILITY OF PEOPLE TO CROSS BORDERS AS MUCH AS MONEY AND--AND GOODS.

UNTIL WE GET THERE, THIS NOTION OF ANYTHING REMOTELY RESEMBLING A DEMOCRATIC ORDER IS SIMPLY A PIPE DREAM OF THE MOST POWERFUL.

AND THE GAP, WHAT WE'RE ALREADY SEEING WITH THIS VAST GAP BETWEEN WEALTH AND POVERTY AROUND THE WORLD, WHICH HAS GOTTEN SO MUCH WORSE IN RECENT DECADES, IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO GET WORSE, AND THAT FUELS INSTABILITY.

EISENHOWER: YEAH.

TOM?

UM, I THINK PRESIDENTS ARE LARGELY DEFINED BY WHAT COMES NEXT.

YOU KNOW, UH, WHEN PRESIDENT EISENHOWER LEFT OFFICE, PEOPLE CRITICIZED HIM FOR NOT DOING MORE IN VIETNAM, AND THAT LOOKED LIKE A PRETTY SMART STRATEGY IN--IN 1968, RIGHT?

SO IT DEPENDS, I THINK, ON--ON WHAT COMES NEXT.

AND WITH A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, UH, OBAMA'S LEGACY, I THINK, WILL BE DEFINED THROUGH THAT PRISM.

AND I WOULD ARGUE THAT WHAT WE'RE HEADED INTO IS A MUCH MORE DANGEROUS PERIOD WHERE MANY OF THOSE INTERNATIONALIST, UH, ACCOMPLISHMENTS WILL BE UNDONE.

I THINK OBAMA WILL STAND VERY FAVORABLY IN COMPARISON TO THAT, AND ALL VERSIONS OF INTERNATIONALISM WILL.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT HIS VISION, OR AN ALTERNATIVE SORT OF VARIANT OF INTERNATIONALISM, CAN ENDURE THROUGH THE TRUMP YEARS AND COME BACK, WHETHER IT'S IN 4 OR 8 YEARS' TIME.

WHETHER IT WAS A CORRECTION, OR A CORRECTION OF A CORRECTION, OR WHETHER IT'S A--BASICALLY A BREAKDOWN OF SOME KIND.

WRIGHT: WELL, I THINK IT'S A BREAKDOWN AND A CRISIS.

RUBIN: I THINK--I THINK IT-- I THINK IT WAS IN THE PROCESS OF BREAKING DOWN.

I THINK GLOBALIZATION HAD VERY DIVERSE AND CONTRADICTORY EFFECT.

A LOT OF THIRD-WORLD COUNTRIES BENEFITED MIGHTILY BY GLOBALIZATION BECAUSE IT RAISED, UH, INCOMES AND--AND LOWERED POVERTY LEVELS IN COUNTRIES LIKE INDIA AND CHINA AND OTHERS WHO WERE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.

AND IN ACTUAL FACT, THERE WERE HUGE POPULATION MOVEMENTS, ALTHOUGH A LOT OF THEM WERE ILLEGAL, AND MANY OF THEM WERE REFUGEES.

I THINK, UH, YOU KNOW, THAT ERA--ERA IS NOW CLOSING.

BORDERS ARE GOING TO BE SEALED.

UM, LARGE FLOWS OF POPULATION ARE GOING TO CEASE BECAUSE THEY ARE SEEN AS THREATENING BY LOCAL POPULATIONS-- WE'VE SEEN IT IN THIS LAST ELECTION, AND WHERE TRUTH LIES IS-- IS COMPLICATED.

UM, INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS ARE ALL UNDER THREAT.

UM, THE FACT THAT TRADE DEALS HAVE BEEN BLOCKED AND-- AND MAYBE DISMANTLED, UH, MEANS, UH, BARRIERS-- MORE BARRIERS WILL COME UP THAT ALSO AFFECT DEVELOPING COUNTRIES AND WILL AFFECT PRICES AND JOBS HERE.

SO WE'RE HEADING INTO A MUCH MORE CLOSED PERIOD WHOSE EFFECTS ARE WE CAN'T FULLY SEE.

BUT I THINK THE OBAMA, UM, ACHIEVEMENTS ARE ABOUT TO BE DISMANTLED ONE BY ONE, INCLUDING THE INSTITUTIONS THAT HE HOPED WOULD TAKE UP A LOT OF THE BURDEN OF KEEPING SECURITY ARRANGEMENTS IN THE REST OF THE WORLD.

BEAUCHAMP: YEAH, I'D LIKE TO ADD THAT THERE'S A TERRIBLE IRONY TO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS THAT AMERICA'S FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT'S ACCOMPLISHMENTS ARE GOING TO BE OR MIGHT WELL BE UNDONE BY A WAVE OF GLOBAL WHITE BACKLASH.

THE EVIDENCE IS VERY GOOD THAT THE INSTABILITY WE'RE SEEING IN EUROPE-- THINGS LIKE BREXIT AND THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT IN COUNTRIES LIKE THE NETHERLANDS AND FRANCE-- IS FUELED BY WHITE VOTERS' FEARS OF THEIR CHANGING SOCIETIES, OF IMMIGRATION, OF, UM, YOU KNOW, MUSLIMS ENTERING THE COUNTRY.

AND IN THE UNITED STATES, OBAMA'S SUCCESSOR, DONALD TRUMP, RODE THAT KIND OF WHITE RESENTMENT TO THE WHITE HOUSE, AND NOW TRUMP HAS PROMISED TO UNDO THINGS LIKE THE CLIMATE CHANGE AGREEMENT, THINGS LIKE THE IRAN DEAL.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW SUCCESSFULLY OBAMA'S LEGACY WILL BE UNDONE, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT THE INTERNATIONAL ORDER-- THE THING THAT HE PRIORITIZED ABOVE ALL ELSE-- IS NOW UNDER THREAT INTERNALLY, AND IT'S UNDER THREAT INTERNALLY BECAUSE OF A RAGE-- A SORT OF WAVE OF WHITE RAGE AT THE STATUS QUO.

EISENHOWER: WELL, IT'S THAT, BUT IT'S ALSO SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC, UH, FRUSTRATION, UH, AND A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE ALSO, UH, A CONSEQUENCE, UH, OF GLOBALIZATION, POSING A GREAT CHALLENGE FOR GLOBALIZATION, AND THAT IS TO--THAT IS TO SPREAD THE PERCEPTION THAT GLOBALIZATION IS FAIR, UH, THAT IT--IT WORKS ECONOMICALLY.

THIS HAS REALLY BEEN INTERESTING.

I WANT TO THANK EVERYBODY ON THE PANEL FOR BEING A PART OF TODAY'S DISCUSSION, WHICH IS, UH-- WHICH IS FASCINATING.

MY SENSE OF IT, UH, IS THAT, UH, PRESIDENT OBAMA, IN MANY WAYS, MAY HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON WITH WOODROW WILSON.

HE HAS--HE HAS A VISION.

UH, THIS IS A VISION THAT WILL, UH, BE, UH, CONTESTED GREATLY.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

IT TAKES TIME FOR THE LEGACY OF A PRESIDENT TO BE UNDERSTOOD.

IN FACT, ONE CAN TRULY SAY THAT THESE DECISIONS ARE NEVER FULLY MADE, AS EACH GENERATION INTERPRETS THE ACTIONS AND THE WORDS OF FORMER PRESIDENTS IN LARGE PART THROUGH THEIR PRISM OF THE ATTITUDES AND THE EVENTS OF THEIR OWN TIMES.

IN THE EARLY ROUGH DRAFT OF THE HISTORY OF THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY, WITH RESPECT TO WORLD AFFAIRS, THERE ARE CERTAINLY COMPETING VISIONS.

SOME BELIEVE HE BETRAYED HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISES AND EVEN HIS OWN PERSONAL INCLINATIONS TOWARDS MULTILATERALISM AND THE AVOIDANCE OF THE USE OF MILITARY POWER.

FOR THESE FOLKS, THE OBAMA YEARS ARE DEFINED BY DRONE WARFARE AND SIMULTANEOUS BOMBING CAMPAIGNS ACROSS MANY NATIONS.

OTHERS LABEL THE OBAMA YEARS AS A TIME OF FECKLESSNESS AND WEAKNESS IN WHICH A DIMINISHED AMERICA EMBOLDENED REAL AND POTENTIAL ADVERSARIES, FROM ISIS TO NORTH KOREA TO CHINA AND RUSSIA, TO EMBARK ON DANGEROUS AGGRESSIVENESS.

STILL OTHERS SEE WISE JUDGMENT IN WHAT THEY WOULD CALL A STEADY AND PRAGMATIC APPROACH TO THE USE OF AMERICAN POWER IN THE WORLD BY PRESIDENT OBAMA, NEITHER SEEKING TO REMAKE THE WORLD THROUGH THAT POWER, NOR ABANDONING THE WORLD TO ITS ON CHAOTIC DEVICES.

THE WHOLE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS THAT THERE IS SOME TRUTH IN ALL OF THESE VIEWS, AND THAT AS THE WORLD IS, INDEED, A DANGEROUS PLACE, IT IS NOW IN THE HANDS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP TO FASHION A POST-OBAMA FOREIGN POLICY THAT KEEPS AMERICA AND ITS VALUES SAFE AND SUCCESSFUL.

I'M DAVID EISENHOWER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "THE WHOLE TRUTH."

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