- Welcome to "Capitol Outlook," I'm Bob Beck.

We will be previewing the 2022 Budget Session with a number of outstanding guests for you.

Senate President Dan Dockstader and Speaker of the House Eric Barlow will join us to talk about a number of issues.

We'll also get into the topic of redistricting with Senator Ogden Driskill and Representative Dan Zwonitzer, who are chairing the committee looking into the issues, and then Representatives Karlee Provenza and Mike Yin will discuss Medicaid expansion and a number of other issues.

Stay with us, "Capitol Outlook" is coming up next.

(regal music) - [Announcer] This program is supported in part by a grant from the BNSF Railway Foundation dedicated to improving the general welfare and quality of life in communities throughout the BNSF Railway service area.

Proud to support Wyoming PBS.

- [Narrator] And by the members of the Wyoming PBS Foundation.

Thank you for your support.

- Well, welcome back to "Capitol Outlook," I'm Bob Beck.

We have a couple of special guests to kick off this special program leading into the legislative session.

Senate President Dan Dockstader is with us, also Speaker of the House, Eric Barlow.

Gentleman, welcome to the program.

- Good morning, Bob.

- Good morning.

- Well, President Dockstader, I wanna start off and just say that, and maybe both of you can respond to this, this has been quite a couple of years.

We've had COVID to deal with, you've had, it seems like, a lot of Special Sessions, but maybe a couple of them in there.

There have been a lot of meetings, a lot's been going on.

What's this felt like?

- Speaker Barlow and I drew the lucky card that we ended up with, maybe, (Bob laughs) the two most unique years in the session, and we jumped in and had all this work to do, but at the same time, we were dealing with COVID.

What do we do, how do we meet, where do we meet?

Mask up, don't mask up, where are we with vaccines?

And that whole issue was going on across the state and we were dealing with that, and that made it all the more challenging.

So nonetheless, that's what we hired on to do and we're sorting it out.

The first year was rather difficult, where it was a startup session, and behind glass, some there, some not.

I recall the first day when I set up there to get sworn in.

Chief Justice, I heard, was a little uncomfortable about coming over in a COVID setting.

He came in, I looked at the side door.

He says, "Go out there," and I went out, and he says, "Raise your hand."

Sworn in and he walked out and I thought, "Well, here we go."

I went up, gavelled in, and we started the session.

It was very unique, some on the floor, most out on big screens in front of me, and we started the session.

- Speaker Barlow, what were your thoughts about this last couple (Eric laughs) of years?

- Well, I think the thing that has struck me is we continue to do the work of the people, and we adapted to the circumstances that the president described, one, because we have a staff that goes above and beyond on behalf of Wyoming and on behalf of the legislature, two, we had lots of support from the Executive Branch and the citizens of Wyoming saying, "What you're doing is important, "but we understand you have to make some modifications, "some adjustments," but yeah, there's been some interesting circumstances and the dynamics of the technology, but out of that, we talked about earlier, now you can see the legislative proceedings from anywhere in the world, and you can participate, if you so chose.

And so that's something that, while we had some inconveniences, we thought, at the time, we've actually learned quite a bit about how to give people even better access to their government and a way to have a voice in their government that extends beyond the four walls of this beautiful capitol to the four borders of our beautiful state and beyond that.

So I think there's some really good lessons learned that we're gonna continue to benefit from and enjoy for the future.

- Yeah, and that was always something that was talked about, and I was at the meeting when the decision was made to even start streaming some of the meetings that we have around the state, but when I'm watching, you have 80, 100, sometimes more participants watching some of the proceedings that are going on.

I've always thought it was best if people didn't know what was happening, (interviewee laughs) but now they do, and do you hear from more folks?

- We do on a real-time basis, and I'm fascinated by the history.

Yesterday, we had Management Council in the old historic Supreme Court Chambers, and I sat there looking around thinking about the start there, the Constitution, everything, and there we are all these years later, livestreaming not only to Wyoming, but the world in a historic place.

- Oh, that's neat.

I think it's a fascinating time.

- Well, last year when we were here, the theme was budget cuts.

Now you've got a little bit of money, the American Rescue Plan money, to spend.

How does that change things, do you think, Speaker, from an attitude standpoint?

- Well, certainly, part of what we were dealing with last year was the COVID shock to the economy because Wyoming lives paycheck to paycheck, if you will, depending on the revenues, and many of them coming from energy, which were dramatically affected by the economic downturn because of COVID.

Wyoming feels that very acutely and very early.

Has several times in the past.

We know there's no don't let a good bust go on or a good boom.

So I think that there is more comfort now.

I think there's also more focus on, I don't know if we're gonna get to this tax structure issue this year, but a more even path to go forward with, because we see these big cycles, but when you average the cycle over, it's basically a steady state, so how do we actually avoid the deep troughs and the high peaks and steady that out?

And I think you're gonna hopefully see some policies come forward that help do that.

One of them is, of course, do we use savings more?

Do we use that savings to bolster those downturns?

Legislative reserve account, the rainy day fund, we know that was implemented in the mid-2000s.

President Dockstader was a part of that to try to help even that out.

There's probably some other fiscal policies that you'll hear about that help with that, but yes, it does take some pressure off the legislature when there's not a deficit, how's that?

- Well, one of the things, President Dockstader, that you've been told by your Consensus Revenue Estimating Group is, while things do look pretty good now, boy, the future's very unknown.

- It's still unsettled, Bob, it is.

Yes, good things are happening with oil, gas, and coal right now.

We are on the verge of some changing energy supply sources, everything from nuclear to hydrogen.

It's an exciting time to be a part of it all, but at the same time, we gotta be careful to transition into those areas and use the money we have now and look at long-term plans and projects, not just short-term.

When you reference the federal money coming in, are there programs, are there plans, that are not just a quick spend that we should, instead, look at setting up this state for decades to come with that money?

The next generations should not be saddled with debt, but should carefully have programs and projects that benefit them for decades to come.

- Well, you've been watching, I know, what the Appropriations Committee has been doing.

Did they follow, essentially, the governor's plan of trying to be frugal, but still replace, maybe, some of the cuts that we saw last time?

- Yes, they have that balance.

They took it on and I commend them.

I spent part of the time in Cheyenne just being an observer in the audience and watching it.

I think they've done a good job of doing what he started with, but then making the adjustments, too.

There are things that we have to look at as a state as it changes.

On the West side of the state, people can no longer afford to live there in state-paying jobs.

We have to settle in and look at a program that will take them into the future.

I spent time with the Teton County School District.

You pay a teacher a good salary there, but where are they going to live?

What are they gonna live on?

School districts looking at purchasing their own land and then adding some housing, that's not unlike what we're looking at with WYDOT and the game and fish there, and with a member-owned cooperative there, Lower Valley Energy, I serve on that board.

We're looking at ways to provide housing for employees in order to keep them right there where they work.

- What about yourself?

- Well, I think, to the question about the work of JAC, I think they certainly took the governor's recommendations when it comes to the ARPA funds and then our improved economic revenues.

One of the discussions the president I had with the governor and with our leadership teams early on as the ARPA started rolling out is we have a unique opportunity here because of this revenue replacement because Wyoming was a unique state.

Our revenues were impacted by COVID because of the economic downturn that COVID created, unfortunate economic downturn.

So we've been able to use some of the federal funds to actually help our state, shorter-term.

We're gonna set aside some of those, and the governor did that with some of his programmatic approaches is what are the mid-term and long-term benefits we can get some of these funds added to what we are already doing?

So you'll see some initiatives that the governor put out there around education and the university and community colleges, and we take that in incremental steps to make sure we have results, but I think you will see things that actually do build the human capital.

At the same time, we need to invest in where our folks live and their having living wage, et cetera.

That's one of the other things the governor brought forth is we have to do something to help support our state employees so they can continue to serve the states, do the work that we and the citizens expect for them.

So there's gonna be a good discussion, I believe, about that proposal to actually deal with living wages for our employees.

- Well, let's talk about another thing that you're gonna have to get done and it's redistricting, and it's only taken the committee since about June to finally agree to a plan, and who knows?

They might change their mind before this program even airs, but maybe Speaker Barlow, you'd be the best person to start with since you've been fighting very hard for your community and your county to get, because of some population changes, an additional representative.

Why don't you explain to folks how this has to work and why it's been so difficult this year?

Because the population is really, if you're in a small area, you haven't seen a lot of growth, but larger areas have really seen some gains.

- So first of all, let's be clear.

The federal government didn't give us the census information 'til late in the year, September.

We had hoped for it in May or June, so that delays the committee's ability to do the work.

And then, of course, that gets more compressed and the pressure gets greater and the community interests get stronger and you have less time to actually sort it out for folks to step back and say, "What are we trying to accomplish here?"

Now I think the committee did good work.

They set out some principles that made sense.

Look, this is about equitable representation, but when the population changes and grows considerably in the urban areas, let's just be honest, and the rural areas get more rural, well, that creates that greater divide, if you will.

That doesn't mean that urban areas should get more representation or less.

That means it should be based on the citizens.

This is about equitable representation for citizens, for the voters of Wyoming, and so, yeah, there's a push and pull, and urban folks are saying, "Well, we grew, let's have more."

Rural folks are saying, "We shrunk, but we don't want less.

"We don't wanna give up any."

So there's just a natural pull, and then you talk about the regional differences and communities, et cetera.

Well, I think that's natural, too, and what we have to look at is partnerships.

What are the partnerships that make sense?

10 years ago when Campbell County had grown some, we partnered with Converse County and we've grown some more.

Other parts of the state have shrunk.

And so how do those partnerships work out?

I've never thought my community's the only one that has to get equitable reputation.

I want equitable reputation across the state for all of its citizens, but how you make those partnerships and how you build those maps, yeah, there's just a natural tension in that.

I think we're getting close, though, Bob.

I'm not pessimistic, we're gonna have a map.

I think the president and I have come to an understanding that it probably come to the House first, and we'll do the work and then we'll send it to the Senate and they can tweak with things that are important to them, and then we'll have a bill that, I think, will serve the citizens of Wyoming.

- We'll have a bill, that's what we came down here for.

Speaker spoke of partnerships.

So we're trying to follow communities of interest in the Southwest, following the mineral-based industry, keeping those folks together, keeping our tourism together to the North out on the West side.

He referenced that already, sir.

- So the plan right now, another senator and a couple of representatives.

Do you want another senator in there?

Do you have too many already?

- Actually this morning, I was looking at the floor and trying to decide where that desk would go.

(laughs) We'll see how it goes, but that's where we're settling on at this point, and we have some agreement.

At least we're moving forward.

- The other thing that's part of all of this, though, and it goes with the budget, too, is you've got all these new people that got elected last time.

This'll be the first time any of them have been through this.

I think Senator Scott and I were the only ones that were here.

This is, again, admitting that I'm old, but in 1992, when we went to the current system of districts, that was as contentious of a legislative session as I've ever seen.

Part of that was because of some budget cuts that were also going on, but how do you keep this with some new people that, maybe, don't totally understand the process from blowing up and turning into something ugly?

- Bob, it's not old, it's institutional knowledge, and we appreciate you and Senator Scott bringing that to the table for us.

I don't think it will blow up.

I think they're settling in and saying, "This is much more difficult than I thought "for our new members," but they're starting to settle in on some agreements.

I think we're gonna be there.

- I think so, as well, and I think that, first of all, it's about setting expectations, and I think the president and I have, in talking with our members and communicating through programs like this and the press, is our expectations are we have two constitutional duties, redistricting and the budget.

Focus on the important things.

And we'll get to some of those committee bills, some of the other things that were important during the interim, and we'll pick up some personal bills, as well, but focus on the things that are really our duties to the citizens of Wyoming, and that's the budget and redistricting.

JAC's done a great job.

I think we're gonna have a budget that's very very solid.

There'll be tweaks, there'll be changes.

There'll be discussions, redistricting.

I think this Friday, we should have a final final bill, I hope, that's ready to go.

There'll be some tweaks, there'll be some things that come up, and there'll be some discussions, but I think we can do that within the context of the time we have, in the context of doing it civil with the decorum that we expect from this institution, the citizens deserve in this state, and we will have, I think, the product that serves all of our communities well.

- We have a couple minutes left.

You were working very hard last year before it blew up at the end, but on education funding.

That seems to be an issue we gotta get back to one of these days and sort out.

What do you think the solution is there?

- What do I think the solution is?

Keep talking about it, keep people engaged.

As you know, the governor has a working group out there doing some work.

I think the legislature, President Dockstader, and myself, as we go into this next interim, I think we'll hopefully help give our interim committee some guidance through Management Council and say, "Okay, "we have to continue having this discussion."

While we're better off on the general fund side, our education funding side is not at a steady state where we would like it, and it comes on both sides of the ledger.

What do we expect from education, and what can we adequately fund in education?

Now out of this particular session, I don't believe there's anything that's gonna change the formula right now, change how we do things right now.

There'll be some discussions, but I think we're still setting it up for the future.

Part of that is how we deal with these federal funds.

Does that help us set up for the future so we can have, maybe, a more robust discussion about education, but it's a long-term discussion when it comes to K-12 education funding.

- We think enough about education in our state.

We wanna get it right, and if we have to pause a little bit and take a deeper look, then we'll do that.

We're gonna get it right.

We respect our schools.

We wanna keep the quality education that we have out there in place.

We're gonna get it done.

- Speaker Barlow mentioned earlier, Senator, that the revenue piece is still also looming out there as we look to the future a little bit.

What would get through the Senate?

I'm curious because you've got a lot of folks that don't want taxes.

- It's a conservative base.

I suspect the new taxes will not be there, but we can take a different approach to living within our means, and those talks are already ongoing.

Yes, you do have a conservative Senate, and that's all part of the processes.

That's the check and balance out there so that we don't set ourselves up for problems in the future.

- Last thing I wanna ask both of you is, talking about education, it got a little contentious last year.

During the Special Session, we had a couple of unfortunate incidents that took place.

You've got some folks that are pretty fired up, which is good, they're passionate.

- They're passionate.

- But that can be bad.

How do you keep things in check so we do maintain decorum and don't lose our way?

- I've asked for that on the floor.

I've been given some assurances that, as we step onto the floor and go to work, that we're going to have that.

Some in their own communities struggle with that, but at the same time, it's a deep passion to get this job right, and you're just going to see that when feelings come out.

And we have to remember, these folks have been elected within their respective districts, but at the same time, we still have to keep a formal process anyway.

- Yes, in the House, of course, we're subject to some of those disruptions (Bob laughs) and quite serious incidences, if you will, that caused consternation.

There's nothing lost on folks in the audience that know that we've got some things we're gonna be dealing with here soon again.

I think my job as a presiding officer is to lay out a potential plan.

The body ultimately rules, the body ultimately makes those decisions, but if I hopefully find a path that they can get to those decisions to assure the folks around me that we are attending to the business and we can do it in a respectful manner that is worthy of serving them, then I think we will get through those things.

Now are they bumpy and sometimes messy and create headlines?

Yes, but hopefully, end of the day, we actually get the work done that's important for the people.

- We like headlines, some of us do, at any rate.

(interviewees laugh) Well, Senator Speaker, nice to have you with us, we'll enjoy chatting with you throughout the session, and thank you for joining us.

- Thank you, Bob.

- Thank you.

- Coming up, we're gonna have a conversation about redistricting.

We're gonna take a deep dive for you so you can find out exactly what's happening.

Stay with us on "Capital Outlook."

(lively music) - Welcome back to Capitol Outlook.

Again, I'm Bob Beck and joining us now to talk about redistricting and some other issues is state representative Dan Zwonitzer and Senator Ogden Driskill.

They're the co-chairs of the committee that's been working on redistricting.

And wasn't that exciting to have that assignment?

Welcome to both of you.

- Thank you.

Good morning.

- Well, Dan, why don't we start with you since you're closest to me.

This has been quite a process.

Can you explain to the viewers what you're supposed to do?

What is supposed to happen here?

- So every 10 years we have a decennial census and both the federal and the state governments redraw their legislative districts.

In Wyoming, we only have one congressional district.

So we get off the hook for what a lot of consternation around the country is going through.

But here in Wyoming, we are redrawing all of our legislative districts.

We did grow about two and a half percent over the last 10 years.

And those numbers didn't come to us until September.

And so in previous decades, we've gotten those numbers six, eight months earlier than this year.

And so it has been a fairly significant scramble starting in September to try to figure out how to redistrict of the state.

- And then the thing that happens, Senator Driskill, is that there've been some and, not unexpectedly, some population shifts, or urban areas such as Cheyenne have certainly seen some major growth and some more rural areas have not seen the same kind of growth and some decreases.

- Exactly.

And it was pretty clear and we're following the national trend as our urban areas are growing in Wyoming and our rural areas are tending to contract and shrink a little.

And became really evident in the Bighorn Basin.

That that was the one area of the state that's been a real problem spot.

And we knew it was a problem going in.

It was on the edge last time.

And it clearly did not fall within the the standard deviation.

And there wasn't really a way.

It's one area that normally we'll, we'll move out for example.

And I started, I represent five counties long ways way, but you could get to 'em all.

And now you get to the Basin where you're bounded by mountain ranges on a couple sides and really hard to deal with.

And it left an incredibly difficult way to try to get them adequate representation without denying 'em, 'cause they were at a half a representative, not a not a full piece off, it was just a half.

And so it made it very difficult to come up to a solution.

- And as you were dealing with solutions, boy, you managed to upset just about everybody in the entire state at some point.

I know my friends at Albany County were mad at you.

I know in the Southwest part of the state, there was a period where everybody was mad.

Senator Driskill, I'm still not sure if he's happy with anything that you've got in front of you.

And so this has been quite a process.

So the solution we're looking at right now is to add a representative, or two representatives and a Senator.

Your thoughts on that?

- I think as Senator Driskill said it's probably the right way to go.

If you look at the Bighorn Basin you either deny them a rep. And in denying them a rep, the way we do Senate nestings are two reps for one Senate district.

And so that ricochets into Fremont County which qualifies four House districts and two Senate districts.

So then if you don't give the Basin six you either have to go way below deviation or that ricocheting effect goes into Fremont and then forces another ripple effect either in the Natrona or Sweetwater.

And so all ultimately what I think the majority of the committee got to is to get the Basin within deviation.

Let's go to 62 House reps and 31 senators, continue this nesting concept of two reps in each Senate district.

And that solved a lot of the issues.

Certainly there's a couple more underlying but it gave everybody some breathing room to ensure they could be within deviation.

And a lot of incumbents were concerned that with population dynamics, they would have to run against other incumbents.

With that even 2%, 3% wiggle room, it allowed some flexibility and kind of trying to keep everybody from being completely against the plan, right.

It's ultimately a legislative plan that you have to have a majority of both sides agree to.

So it's a very political process that we're dealing with.

- Senator Driskill, your thoughts on this idea?

- I agree wholeheartedly with my co-chairman, and the process was incredible to watch.

I was a new Senator 10 years ago.

I'd been in for a couple of years.

So I, this is my second pass through and I saw the contention and I thought, wow, I get to be chairman this time.

We won't have it when I get to be there.

And I really learned, and I'm proud of what our committee did.

It took a lot of heat but what we really did was allowed every Senator, every representative, and any person that had a idea that they were gonna build a better mouse trap, that they could do it.

And so we looked at 30 or 40 plans and what we found out was what's good for the goose is not good for the gander.

And so what plan someone brought that was the very best for their area really affected someone else in a very negative way.

And so ultimately at the end of the day, you have to inflict the least amount of damage possible.

But without a doubt, I don't think there's an area of the state that went unscathed.

The last area was Natrona and we'd left them and they were four tenths over and we'd left them alone because the way it went and all of a sudden the last plan came in and affected the Natrona County.

And what we saw was a very meek and mild Senator Scott through the process become very agitated when all of a sudden we started cutting on his county.

It was pretty fine until that point.

And we found out with region by region, myself included is when someone else came up with a great idea for your area that you didn't think was a great idea, you were not just hurt, but you're angry 'cause this is what the legislature looks like for the next 10 years.

So it's very hard to be really balanced.

And I'm like I say, I'm proud of the committee looking at every single scenario and coming up with what they feel like's the best.

We'll see what the floors, if they agree or disagree with us.

- I was here, and I think Senator Scott and I were the only ones that were here in 1992 when this new system was developed.

There were some budget cuts that year.

There were a couple of other things that added to the tension, but I will say of all the years I've covered the legislature.

That was the most contentious legislative session.

It was was nasty.

People yelled at each other.

There have been long term implications from all that.

What's what have you gotten feedback-wise on this one?

I'm hearing that out in the hinterland, this has been very contentious.

- Absolutely.

I would say there's been 40 to 50 public meetings.

I can tell you in a rural part of the state where I live it's not been unusual to have 70 to a hundred people to show up at a meeting, which is unheard of.

So it tells you it's an issue that's really near and dear to 'em.

Representation matters.

Unfortunately, for part of it, we ended up with a urban versus rural split.

And what I really came up with at the end of the day was everybody found reasons why they were different and someone else went in truth, other than got two or three quote-unquote cities out there that are there.

But the rest of the state is really pretty homogenous.

A rural area in Sweetwater County is not much different than one in Crook County or in Goshen County.

Yet they, in their eyes, they see themselves as a very distinct community of interest.

We're all proud of a community, so.

- What are you hearing from folks?

- I think there's some general trepidation about growing government, right?

To the, the plan of actually growing the number of legislators really wasn't on the table.

In the beginning, we looked at ways to cut the number but ultimately I think this allowed... We got through the kind of the rural-urban divide by ensuring those kind of rural voices are still at the table while ensuring that the population growth, Laramie County grew 8,700 people.

That population growth is still represented.

So, I think it's fair.

I feel I can go into session and say not everybody likes this, but I'm confident that we kind of the best we could on short notice that does the most amount of good.

And I mean, that was really important for me to be able to go in the legislature and say, "Hey, I think this is fair.

And does what it should be doing for the next 10 years."

- And I'm smiling because I know everybody's gonna agree with you.

You they're just gonna sit down and say, "Boy is that what a great plan?"

And so how do you keep things?

I'll ask you about the House first.

That's a festive place.

How do you keep things in order there and not lose this plan?

- It's gonna be tough, right?

Ultimately, and I was here 10 years ago if we can agree on Friday, this week, to a committee plan which I think we will, we're gonna go and the members of the house are gonna defend that plan.

It's kind of like the budget, right?

Not every single member likes everything in the budget but when the appropriations committee goes to the floor they know what we went through for the last six months.

And they've heard the public comment and all sorts of people saying all sorts of things, right?

So when it gets to the floor I do think the committee will be united, the majority in the House will push it through.

And there will be some amendments, I think last year or 10 years ago, they had two amendments, a small one from the House and a more significant one from the Senate.

I think everyone's anticipating that we'll have some battles on some amendments but every amendment that changes some district will ricochet throughout others.

And I think it'll be a good balance of conversation on the whole legislature realizing, kind of what we've gone through for the past six months behind the scenes, trying to figure out how to make this work.

When they have to try to figure out how to make it work, they'll I think get to the same point we did, that.

This is the best option going forward.

- How's it gonna look in the Senate, do you think?

- Probably even more contentious little, we've got a competing plan out there that's been there and the Senate has really been difficult on the way they take a look at it.

I think the demeanor and amendments that come Friday are gonna play a big role on what comes.

We know there's amendments coming to the plan Friday.

Hopefully we get through 'cause the truth is by law, we have to do it.

The results are really bad for both the legislature and the state if we don't come out of the legislature with a plan.

And I think the co-chairman will agree with me there really isn't gonna be a plan that makes everybody happy.

It's just not possible.

So when we walk off the floor after the final vote on redistricting, there's gonna be people that are emotional and unhappy.

And I feel terrible about it.

I had no clue when I walked into this, what degree of personal it would get with different people.

And it's really hard.

I've always been known for getting along good with everybody.

And all of a sudden, I find myself with close friends having animated conversations and pretty barbed emails.

And, that's with friends.

That doesn't count the people that don't like you.

(chuckles) - So one of the ideas for the future that has been kicked around is maybe having not legislators put this together, and having a committee of people.

After having been through this, do you like that idea?

- I don't.

I've got a co-sponsor request on my desk, Senator, he's a good friend, and it sounds kind kind of appealing on the edge until you really think about what politics are and how they work.

An appointed commission still is gonna be all Wyoming people that are from different areas of the state that go through the same process we've done.

It will take some of the heat off the legislature but it transfers it to that final vote.

And what I really think needs done for redistrict team is we need to codify some of what we believe.

We need to look at the standards, are counties higher standard than another one?

Because we have a whole set of principles that we voted on.

But those principles we found changed.

From the start to the end they changed.

And if they were boxed in more solid, I think you could do it.

And if you were really gonna do an unbiased opinion is you'd weigh each of those principles and you'd go ahead and have a programmer come do it, 'cause computers are heartless.

And say, here's the hard boundaries for geographic.

Here's the balance we give counties.

Here's what we give.

And I think if you did that, it would give you a better starting place, 'cause right now really what we do for a plan is everybody just puts stuff up.

The good co-chairman brought plans, I brought plans, and they tend to be harder to defend when you brought something yourself, 'cause all of a sudden you put a bullseye on your own plan when you started, so.

- So, what do you think, Dan, about maybe an outside commission?

- I think I'm on the same page as my co-chair.

This year was just so difficult that the census numbers came in seven months late that we scrambled.

And so I think there was a lot more scrutiny and it looked a lot, it looked a lot worse than it was with so many plans so quickly.

And I think that was where everybody got frustrated as they thought they were safe in their district.

And then the small plan from another part of the state ricocheted and affected them.

10 years ago, when we had the numbers eight months in advance, we had a lot more community meetings.

We had a lot more kind of pre-planning before the first initial plan was put out there.

We didn't get to the first plan until middle of December when I basically said we gotta have something statewide because these puzzle pieces don't keep fitting.

And then once we did that, it was, the plan that I submitted got everybody equally disliking it, but everybody amending it from at least one standard plan.

And I think it was just a matter of time this year that led to a lot more emotion and not having that kind of communication period with a lot more planning and a lot more thought.

That was so rushed this year.

And a lot of people are still upset about the census numbers.

I mean, we've had, I think three counties are going to sue, they've already said, the federal government, because they believe their census numbers are off.

And so when you start with three counties coming to you saying, "Our numbers are off, we need you to draw differently than our numbers even say."

And the constitution of Wyoming says, you must draw by the census numbers.

We kind of started out behind the eight ball and never really got outta the line of fire from the very beginning.

And I think it's a matter of time this year.

- I'm anticipating the legislature will debate a bill or at least a concept that the committee defeated this year.

And this is again, dealing with primary elections.

A lot of ideas have been out there.

There's a concept where the top two vote getters would go to a runoff if somebody did not have over 50% of the ballot.

And that's what really, what this has been all about for the viewers is that people don't like the fact that we've elected governors and some other people with just 25, 26, whatever it is, percent of the vote.

And that's been the case for a long time.

And I know it, people haven't liked that for a long time.

So what's the solution to this?

Dan, I'll start with you.

- Sure.

And so this isn't a new issue, right?

I've been on corporations for over a decade and we've talked a lot about how our election process in Wyoming is not perhaps the most fair.

Even in my county, we had two county commission seats up about six years ago, 26 people ran.

And so the people who got the seats, both Republicans, I got think got 10 and 11% in the primary.

And so we've discussed options for the past decade on is there a more fair way to do it?

Is it a runoff primary?

Is it an open primary?

Is it a top two?

Is it what we call a jungle primary, where we don't really even have a partisan primary?

We have kind of a pre-election and another election.

And so I think with the congressional issues going on this year, it all came to a head of the Republican party coming to the legislature saying we're finally ready to find a new system.

I don't think on short notice, the... With redistricting and everything going on this year was we found the answer that the committee could agree on.

And so I know there is a bill for runoff primaries.

I believe there are other pieces of legislation moving around for other types of better election systems.

But I do think it's time for Wyoming to find a different process when we're over 70% Republican, our primary has become our election, and we probably need more flexibility in what that looks like to get at a majority winner.

- Ogden, did you like the runoff primary?

- I think the debate needs to be there, needs to be had.

And yeah, I like the idea of it.

What we really found when we got the committee is federal election laws play such a major role.

Statutorily, we have deadlines in the state of Wyoming.

Federally, we have deadlines, and to make everything fit in those deadlines, it's like so many other good ideas, legislative.

We step out and say, "Well, this is really not very hard to fix."

And then when you really get down to working with it, and we found out out early on we had a very contentious meeting early on about it.

And it takes a constitutional amendment Wyoming, actually, to to really make it work correctly.

I mean, you can do it without it, but not very easily.

And so what you see coming this year is constitutional amendment alongside of another bill.

And it's just not as simple as it seems.

And it gets even more complicated when you start getting into absentee ballots and overseas ballots 'cause those people have to have all those in a certain window.

And when you go to that, it really honestly makes it very hard, and it, the issues blend, we go into crossover voting with it.

We go into, it's not one issue.

It's a whole series of issues that pull together, and and they all really need dealt with in some fashion but we are searching for solutions.

And as we all know, a lot of times these bills will come up two or three times before we finally find the right solution.

And I think the bills issue are gonna lead to some good conversations and a good path towards getting it fixed.

- As somebody who has had to do general elections for many years, that ended up being meaningless 'cause everything was solved in the primary, I'll give you a final thought.

Let's make general elections great again.

So whatever you do, let's make those work out for us.

Thanks to both of you for joining us.

And, and we'll check back in with you if you don't mind later in the session and see how you're doing, because I'll worry about- - Oh, I'll put a quick cheat in, and if you can get it done before you solve out.

So the first Capitol Outlook was Senator Leland Christensen, and we just lost him.

And I think it's appropriate to start a session to recognize the impact to the state of Wyoming and to the legislature of one of our really, truly great leaders that left us too soon.

- Wonderful guy.

I think we all agree with that.

Well, thanks to both of you for joining us.

When we come back, we're gonna hear from a couple of the Democratic members of the legislature and have a fun conversation about a number of bills that they've been working on.

Stay with us.

This is Capitol Outlook.

(upbeat horn) - Welcome back to Capitol Outlook.

We're going to invite a couple of Democrats now to join us.

Of course, Laramie representative of Karlee Provenza, first time on the program.

Welcome.

And Jackson representative Mike Yin.

Representative Provenza, let's start with you.

I'd like, just since you are a freshman, just sort of have you introduce yourself to the state of Wyoming a little bit.

- Yeah, thanks Bob.

I am representative for House District 45.

That's in Laramie.

I am a recent UDub graduate with my PhD in psychology in law.

I am also a daughter of a family that has struggled with healthcare and economic stability.

And I bring those perspectives with me to this body.

- Well, one of those is Medicaid expansion, which I know of you've been a strong supporter of over the past tough road to hoe to get two thirds introduction.

How are you feeling about things this year?

- You know, I feel like there's a stronger push than ever for Medicaid expansion.

There's been a really concerted effort by the people of Wyoming to fight for it.

And that's something that I think is kind of unprecedented here.

And so I am looking forward to seeing what the vote comes out as.

I feel confident that we've at least moved in the right direction, but you're right.

A two third vote is difficult, so we'll see, but I'm gonna be working until the last minute to try and get those votes in.

- Why is this so important?

And you know, we've been watching this for years and years and years.

I've lost track as a matter of fact, but why is this so important to keep pushing on this and to finally get this passed?

- Because I think you know, if we pass Medicaid expansion tomorrow and we ensure that more people in Wyoming could have healthcare were looking at 25,000 or more.

That's 25,000 people that have families.

That's 25,000 people that face medical debt or struggle to get to a doctor.

I mentioned my family.

My mom lives in Southern Colorado, and there she has access to Medicaid and she was diagnosed with stage four cancer, and had she not had that access to care, she wouldn't be here today.

And so I think about all the people, those 25,000 people, and who they are and who their families are.

And that's really what's at stake here.

- Representative Yin, you've heard the feedback.

I mean, there's a lot of people that believe this is helping people out that are not, I guess working or trying to get insurance, those kinds of things.

They would rather have an easy way to get insurance.

Your thoughts on that.

- So, I mean I think it needs to be clear what Medicaid expansion is right?

So there's this cliff from the ACA of what plans are not subsidized anymore.

And so if you make below that amount of money, but you make above what is covered currently by Medicare, you don't have an unsubsidized plan.

So you're basically a working class stiff who can't afford healthcare.

So if your choice is between getting healthcare or paying your rent or your mortgage, you're gonna pay your rent or your mortgage, and hope you don't have a catastrophic health event in your life.

But we shouldn't have that sort of, that's not a solution for healthcare for Wyomingites, right?

So trying to fill that gap, that's what Medicaid expansion does.

And the choice isn't that people are not working enough, are not getting healthcare.

You know, frankly they're just not getting paid enough to afford healthcare.

And we're not doing anything about it when we could be pumping federal dollars into our system to make sure it works.

- You had some testimony on in your committee, one of your committees this year that was talking about that very thing.

And what has happened is I'm starting see a different lobby show up.

You're seeing small business people show up and they're saying you know we're not getting the subsidies anymore.

And we have people that can't get insurance please do something about this.

And that seems to be maybe a different approach and a different discussion than we've seen in the past.

- Yeah, there's certainly a push now from businesses because folks are recognizing that healthy workers are happier workers, more productive workers.

And that oftentimes we have people that are working multiple jobs and because they have to work those multiple jobs to get that full time, don't have access to that healthcare, but businesses want their employees to be healthy so they can come back to work.

- How tired are you of the discussion that the money may go away from the federal government?

- You know, I think that is a bad framing.

The framing is it's important for all of our citizens in Wyoming to be able to afford healthcare.

And we have an opportunity now with extra federal dollars, but now you're hearing from groups like the Jackson Hole Chamber of Commerce is coming out in support of Medicaid expansion.

You hear the hospital groups testify every single time.

What I'd like people to do is just ask their bartender, ask their barista, do they have healthcare?

Can they afford healthcare.

If they can't, what do they think the solution is?

- And it probably would be nice to get the governor to support this at some point.

- Yeah, absolutely.

Anybody that is in a position in which they can support the people of Wyoming through policy and through their views and voice is important.

- Well you both have been working on another topic that we've also been talking about since I was 12, I think, and that's juvenile justice reform.

The judiciary committee has come up with a an idea where you're going to do a study.

Can you explain a little bit what what's going on here?

- Yeah, so our, what we're doing is we're bringing a bill to ensure that there's data collection.

And we're asking for the department of family services to kind of come up with that data collection will look like, what are those variables, and then be able to present information to the judiciary, because as we know juvenile justice right now it's kind of a black box.

There's a lot of information that we don't have that we otherwise should to help us in making policy decisions.

- Representative Yin, what are you looking at?

What do you want to hear?

- You know, I think we want to hear how kids get through the process and what the outcomes are, and what happens to those kids during the process that create bad outcomes and how we can fix those.

So what having that data makes us be able to make better policy decisions in that area.

- My understanding is also, it's a different situation in every county.

You know, Albany county, where we're from has a youth crisis center, has some services that are available there, not every county has those kinds of things.

Will that help to get kind of a snapshot on what's available?

And maybe you can address both the infrastructure as well as sentencing, things like that.

- Yeah.

I mean, I think I would agree with that, and you know what also gets us is what is the best use of our tax dollars to be able to get the best outcome for kids.

And so if we see that a county is performing better than another county on a per capita basis, maybe we can share that information between counties or make it a statewide program where we can we can solve these issues statewide.

- It's been such a tough issue to maybe get our arms around.

And in your view, you're new to all of this.

What has made it such a difficult thing to get a handle on?

- I mean, I think part of it is that we do have the issue with counties where we just have, we don't necessarily have equitable outcomes across the state of Wyoming.

I think the other issue is that we have different folks who are in charge of say the county, like who's running the county facilities or programs for juveniles versus the state.

Who has access to that data, and part of that has been a concern about confidentiality for for youth.

And so not having that information or not being able to aggregate it somewhere has really been difficult and a big hurdle that we need to cross.

- Seems like there's also been trouble over the years, Mike on getting prosecutors to all agree on some sort of a solution.

There are different people that have different philosophies.

- Sure, yeah.

I mean, every prosecutor is elected by their county and so that some of those have different ideals or ways of doing things, but you know, I think what we all want is the best outcome for the people of our county.

And hopefully that's something that we can bring all the stakeholders including the county prosecutors on board for.

- Another very serious issue.

And the committee just couldn't find a solution once again this year is how you deal with some people that have some mental health challenges and you know need some help, need to go to an institution, need to go somewhere.

And they call that Title 25.

An attempt was made again this year that that sort of fell apart right at the end.

What happened there and what do you think needs to happen next?

- You know, I think one of the biggest issues for many members of the committee was just cost and it wasn't an issue that it was addressed.

We more tried to address the process.

And you know, one thing that happened during trying to address the process in my opinion is not getting enough stakeholders on board.

So we got the prosecutors, but I think getting more people together to try to figure out what is the best for the individuals that you know, it's a big deal hospitalizing someone without their consent, because they are not able to handle that for themselves, but you wanna make sure that it is the right choice for that person in every situation and trying to have a a concrete process to do that that works for everybody is difficult.

And so we tried, we'll try again.

- It sounds too that much like the last issue is finding services or finding providers in these communities that are nearby, because the challenge has been a lot of these cases, I was talking to the Sheridan county sheriff and you know, they don't have the resources always to drive somebody all the way to Evanston or wherever it is, and getting regional services.

Is that something that needs to be figured out?

- Yeah, I think we don't again have equitable services across counties.

And so we need to find a way to bolster our mental health services outside of just our state hospital and others so that people have a way to get access to care before they end up maybe in that Title 25 situation, or having hospitalization forced on them.

So that's certainly a concern in terms of just making sure that people have access to that, to that care.

- Yeah, and finding psychiatrists, I don't know what the number was, but the last I heard that it was a very low number of psychiatrists right now in the state.

- Yeah, we have a difficult time.

I think having the appropriate folks with the appropriate knowledge to kind of help make these decisions.

And so when we were talking about this bill in judiciary you know, know representative Yin mentioned stakeholders and we had a lot of folks from the county attorneys association come, and they certainly had valid and important points, but we didn't get a lot from mental health providers or people that were impacted.

And those are quite frankly two very important points that we need to look at.

And how do we bring people to the state to provide the services, and how do we make sure that we're addressing the rights of patients.

- I got a couple of minutes left.

I wanna ask you about a couple of different things.

This is the budget session, and you're going to not only have that, but you've got this additional money the ARPA money.

We're still waiting on some of those bills to show up, but what would you like to see some of the money used for this year?

- You know, I think the, one of the biggest things we need to do is roll back some of the mental health services cuts that we made.

So last year we had a bill that said priority is for who could or could not get covered for mental health.

And that was really, I think an eye opener for a lot of people where we need these services and cutting them back over and over, and then trying to revert them back and forth is not good for Wyomingites to grow up in that kind of environment.

- What about you?

- Yeah, I mean, echoing that as well, I serve on the governor's task force for suicide prevention for veterans.

And there were a few policies that came out of that work that looked at providing more care for folks who are struggling with suicide.

988 funding or ways to have crisis intervention that makes sense for folks.

And I believe that those proposals were not accepted by the joint appropriations committee.

So I'm gonna be looking for ways to ensure that we can help prevent suicide in Wyoming, which is one of our number one, we're usually one of the top states in that rank.

And that's not something to be excited it.

- Representative Yin, you and you have had the pleasure, this has been the redistricting show a little bit, but just your thoughts as the Democrat who gets to have a say in this.

What, how are you viewing this process?

And do you like this latest plan?

- You know, I think the hardest thing to do is just make sure that we fulfill our constitutional obligations of equal protection.

So that's essentially the one person, one vote rule, where each of us as citizens of Wyoming, voters of Wyoming have equal say in what happens in the legislature through our vote, through our vote through our representative.

And you know, I think that has been very tough dealing with the realities of the changes that has happened within our state, and you know, they're only gonna get tougher in 10 years.

So I think that we have a good compromise plan at the moment, but anything can happen during the session.

And I'm sure anything will.

- You said before we started off the air, and I'll just repeat it.

You said boy, this might be a tough one for people in 10 years to deal with.

Could you explain?

- Yes.

Yeah, so you know, I think the changes that are happening now are gonna be changes that continue to happen in 10 years.

Our cities will grow, but you know I think we are a rural state.

So even in our cities, we support rural Wyoming, but it is clear that populations shift, and the populations will shift even more in 10 years.

- Representative Karlee Provenza, and of course, Jackson representative Mike Yin, thanks to both of you for getting over here and joining us and good luck in the upcoming legislative session.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- And again, thanks to all of you who are joined us.

Don't forget, we'll have the state of the state for you at 10 o'clock on Monday.

Have a tremendous weekend.

And thanks for watching (trumpet blowing) - [Announcer] This program is supported in part by a grant from the BNSF Railway Foundation dedicated to improving the general welfare and quality of life in communities throughout the BNSF Railway service area.

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