>> Bonnie Erbe: COMING UP, PRINCE ANDREW SETTLED THE LAWSUIT WITH THE WOMAN HE ACCUSED HIM OF SQUELCHING HER AS A MINOR.

THEN, THE DAYS OF FAMILIES PICKING UP AND MOVING FOR THE HUSBAND'S JOB MAY BE BEHIND US.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie Erbe: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, PRINCE ANDREW'S SEXUAL ASSAULT SETTLEMENT: EMBATTLED PRINCE ANDREW, QUEEN ELIZABETH II 'S DISGRACE SECOND SON, HAS SETTLED A LAWSUIT FILED BY WOMAN WHO SAYS HE RAPED HER WHEN SHE WAS 17.

VIRGINIA GIUFFRE CLAIMED ANDREW SEXUALLY ABUSED HER AT NOTORIOUS SEX TRAFFICKERS JEFFREY EPSTEIN'S MANSION IN MANHATTAN AND PRIVATE ISLAND IN THE U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS.

PRINCE ANDREW DID NOT ADMIT GUILT IN THE SURPRISE OUT OF COURT SETTLEMENT, BUT HE WILL PAY GIUFFRE AN UNDISCLOSED AMOUNT OF MONEY AND MAKE A SUBSTANTIAL DONATION TO A CHARITY THAT SUPPORTS VICTIMS' RIGHTS, BUT DOES DOES NOT APPEAR TO END THE CONTROVERSY ACROSS THE POND WHERE THERE IS STILL CALL FOR HIM TO GIVE UP HIS LAST HONORARY POSITION, DUKE OF YORK.

RUNNING ME TODAY ARE DR. EVA STEARNS DEWEEVER, INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM PRESIDENT CARRIE LUKAS, THE AMSTERDAM NEWS' SAM BENNETT, AND THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER'S COLUMNIST TIANA LOWE.

SO, DR. AVIS JONES DEWEEVER, WELCOME BACK.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN YOU IN A WHILE BUT IT'S ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU.HO PAYS FOR THE SETTLEMENT?

>> Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever: WELL, I SUPPOSE THE SETTLEMENT WILL BE PAID BY THE PEOPLE OF ENGLAND IF IT'S COMING FROM THE PRINTS, BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY MUCH SUBSIDIZED FROM THAT PUBLIC.

IT'S A SHAME THAT THE CITIZENS OF THAT NATION IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR HIS BAD BEHAVIOR, AT MINIMUM.

AND ACTUALLY CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR AT WORST.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS -- WHAT IMPACT, IF ANY, WILL THIS HAVE ON CHILD TRAFFICKING, WHICH IS, BY MOST ACCOUNTS, GOING UP ALL THE TIME NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE TRY TO FIGHT IT?

THE FACT THAT -- AND THEY ARE SO MANY NONPROFITS WORKING TO LIBERATE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRAFFICKED AND ALSO TO PROSECUTE PERPETRATORS.

BUT INCREASED INTERNATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC AND MANY MORE POROUS BORDERS ARE MAKING IT MUCH EASIER FOR TRAFFICKERS THAN EVER BEFORE.

SO, CARRIE LUKAS, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE ANSWER?

>> Carrie Lucas: YEAH, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S NO EASY ANSWER ON SUCH A PRACTICAL ISSUE.

ON ONE HAND, THAT'S A POSITIVE THING THAT THERE IS A GROWING PUBLIC AWARENESS ABOUT THE EXTENT OF THIS PROBLEM.

BUT THEN IT IS, YOU KNOW, I AM ALWAYS FRUSTRATED ON THINGS LIKE THIS WHEN YOU SEE THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE ONE SET OF RULES FOR THE ELITE AND ONE SET OF RULES FOR THE OTHER.

CERTAINLY, THAT IS THIS CASE.

I DON'T THINK THAT MANY OTHER PEOPLE WOULD GET THIS KIND OF SWEETHEART DEAL, IF THERE IS INDEED AS MUCH EVIDENCE AS WE ALL SUSPECT AREAS.

SO, YOU KNOW, AWARENESS OF AT LEAST THE PROBLEM, ALTHOUGH I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE SHAKING YOUR HEAD AT THE OUTCOME.

>> Bonnie Erbe: DO YOU THINK, DO YOU AGREE, AVIS, THAT THIS MAY HELP RAISE AWARENESS OF THE PROBLEM, AND THEREFORE PUSH DOWN THE NUMBERS OF THOSE BEING TRAFFICKED?

>> Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever: IT MAY RAISE AWARENESS, BUT I KIND OF AGREE THAT THIS IS A REALLY HARD ISSUE TO GET YOUR ARMS AROUND.

I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE FOCUS ENOUGH ON THIS, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS ENOUGH ATTENTION AND INVESTMENT TO REALLY INVESTIGATING THIS, AND I THINK A LOT OF THIS IS BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF HIGH-POWERED, VERY WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE INVOLVED WITH US THAT HAVE THE POWER TO SUPPRESS ACTIVITY, QUITE FRANKLY.OOK HOW LONG IT TOOK FOR THIS TO COME TO LIGHT, RIGHT?

THOUGH I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THAT THIS IS GOING TO MAKE A DENT IN THE TRAFFICKING, SEX TRAFFICKING FIELD, THE REAL REALIST IN ME SAYS IT IS NOT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SAM BENNETT, YOU WERE MARRIED TO A BRITISH CITIZEN, CORRECT?

>> Sam Bennett: THAT IS CORRECT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHAT STICKS OUT TO YOU IN THIS WHOLE SITUATION OF FUTURE DEVELOPMENTS?

I MEAN, I REMEMBER GOING, QUITE FRANKLY, TO BRITAIN AS A TEENAGER AND THINKING, WHY DO THEY STILL HAVE THIS MONARCHY AND WHY ARE BRITONS WILLING TO KICK IN THIS MONEY WHEN, EVEN IF THEY DID NOT HAVE A MARNIE KEY, THEY HAVE TONS OF CASTLES AND ALL THE REST OF IT FOR TOURISTS?

>> Sam Bennett: YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, ACTUALLY.

IT'S A BIG CONTRIBUTOR, RIGHT, TO THE ECONOMY OF BRITAIN, THE TOURIST INDUSTRY.

BUT I THINK THAT'S TELLING ABOUT THIS, AND, YES, I WAS MARRIED FOR EIGHT YEARS TO A PROFESSIONAL SOCCER PLAYER, THE COLLECTIBLE THERE.

IS THAT THE MONARCHY NOT ONLY PLAYS A DISPROPORTIONATE ROLE IN ENGLAND, IT PLAYS A DISPROPORTIONATE ROLE INTERNATIONALLY, RIGHT?

THIS IS THE ROYAL FAMILY OF THE WORLD, AND LET'S PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE: RIGHT?

THEY ARE THE ONES WATCH MORE THAN ANY OTHER ROYAL FAMILY.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TIMING THAT THE QUEEN ANNOUNCED THE ACCEPTANCE, THE FORMAL ACCEPTANCE OF CAMILLA AROUND THE SAME TIME.

IT WAS ALMOST AS IF THEY WERE DOING A VERY CAREFUL PR CAMPAIGN.

LET'S RELEASE THIS ABOUT CAMILLA FIRST AND THEN WE WILL DEAL WITH THE SITUATION WITH PRINCE ANDREW.

SO I THINK THE ROYAL FAMILY, WHAT I'M GATHERING IN LISTENING TO THE ENGLISH SIDE OF THE FAMILY, RIGHT, IS THAT THEY ARE WORKING VERY, VERY HARD TO OWN UP ENOUGH TO ANYTHING UNDER THE RUG.

MY SENSE IS THAT A LOT OF LESSONS, HARD LESSONS WERE LEARNED ABOUT THE POOR HANDLING OF LADY DIANA, RIGHT.

AND SO, IF YOU LIKE THE ROYAL FAMILY IS AT LEAST MAKING AN EFFORT, RIGHT, TO BE PUBLIC ABOUT THE SITUATION AS SAFELY AS THEY CAN.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, THEN WHY -- WHY CONFLATE OR PUT TOGETHER THE TIMING OF ALLOWING, NAMING CAMILLA AS SHE CAN BE CLEAN WHEN PRINCE CHARLES CAN BECOME KING?

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THEM BEING MORE OUTSPOKEN?

>> Sam Bennett: THEY WERE PLOWING THE GROUND, RIGHT?

HONESTLY, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THERE WAS A PREVIOUS MONARCHY, RIGHT.

INDEED, THE FATHER OF THE CURRENT QUEEN WHO TOOK THE THRONE UNEXPECTEDLY WHEN HIS BROTHER ATTEMPTED TO MARRY A DIVORCE AND WAS NOT ALLOWED TO.

SO THE PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE OF CAMILLA IS A VERY BIG, IMPORTANT HISTORIC FOOTNOTE IN REAL HISTORY.

SO MY SENSE IS THEY WERE PLOWING THE GROUND, RIGHT, TO MAKE IT, YES, WE HAVE THIS BAD ACTOR, PRINCE ANDREW, WHO HAS BEHAVED POORLY.

TO LOOK AT US, WE ARE ACCEPTING CAMILLA AND BECOMING MORE A MODERN ROYAL FAMILY -- >> Bonnie Erbe: BUT DOES ANYBODY THINK AFTER ELIZABETH RETIRES, DOES ANYBODY THINK THE MONARCHY WILL BE AS POPULAR AS IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST?

I MEAN, PRINCE CHARLES, WELL, I THINK A LOT OF HIM, FOR ALL HIS WORK ON HIS ENVIRONMENTALISM AND AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE, HE'S NOT THE MOST LOVABLE CHARACTER.

CAMILLA IS HATED BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE DID TO DIANA.

AND THERE IS NOTHING THE CROWN CAN DO TO EVER CHANGE BRICKS' OPINIONS OF HER, BECAUSE DIANA WAS A STAR.

SHE WAS THE BIGGEST STAR THAT THE MONARCHY HAD IN A LONG TIME, SINCE ELIZABETH.

AND ELIZABETH ONLY BECAME A STAR BECAUSE OF GOING OUT THERE WITH THE PEOPLE DURING THE BOMBINGS IN WORLD WAR II.

IT WAS NOT BECAUSE SHE HAS THIS GREAT PERSONALITY.

IT WAS BECAUSE SHE IS BELOVED BY HER COUNTRY.

SO, SO, I MEAN, IT SEEMS TO ME AFTER ELIZABETH RETIRES, THE MOVEMENT FOR GETTING RID OF THE MONARCHY, OR AT LEAST PAYING FOR IT, IF PEOPLE WANT TO PAY FOR IT THEMSELVES, I MEAN THE PEOPLE IN THE MONARCHY WANT TO FIND A WAY TO MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO SUPPORT THE EXISTENCE, WHICH IS DOUBTFUL, THEN DON'T YOU THINK A LOT OF BRICKS ARE GOING TO SAY, COME ON, THIS ISN'T AN EXPENSE WE DON'T NEED TO BE CARRYING?

>> Sam Bennett: WELL, I DON'T THINK SO.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHO'S COMING UP THE PIPE, DIANA'S OLDEST SON AND HIS WIFE WHO ARE ENORMOUSLY POPULAR, I THINK YOU HAVE THE NEXT GENERATION COMING UP THAT ARE ENORMOUSLY POPULAR, DOING THE JOB RIGHT.

I DON'T SEE IT GOING AWAY.

AND IF I COULD DO A SHORT PIVOT TO DR. JONES, MY GOOD FRIEND, DR. JONTZ DEWEEVER, I DON'T THINK THIS MAKES A DENT IN SEXUAL TRAFFICKING.

I MYSELF HAVING BEEN SEXUALLY TRAFFICKED, THIS ALL THE SOCIETAL PROBLEMS UNDERNEATH THAT CREATE THE FODDER IN THE GIRLS IN PARTICULAR, BUT THE BOYS TOO, WHO ARE VULNERABLE TO THIS TRAFFICKING.

SO I THINK IT MAKES A DENT.

IT SENDS THE RIGHT MESSAGE, BUT WE HAVE DEEP SOCIETAL PROBLEMS THAT WE DO HAVE TO DO WITH THAT FEEDS THIS PHENOMENON INTERNALLY IN GIRLS AND BOYS.

>> Bonnie Erbe: CARRIE, CARRIE LUKAS, YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHAT YOU THINK WILL PUT A DENT IN SOCIAL TRAFFICKING SPEAKER IF IT WAS ONLY SO EASY.

I MEAN, WE DO HAVE TO HAVE -- THAT'S ONE OF THE GREAT CONUNDRUMS AND I THINK IF THERE WAS AN EASY SOLUTION, IF THERE WAS A POLICY THAT THEY WOULD BE TRIED AS BIPARTISAN SUPPORT AROUND THE WORLD TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS, BUT DOES NOT AND THERE'S TOO MUCH MONEY IN IT, I DO THINK THAT HAVING BETTER POLICING, BORDER CONTROL, EDUCATION ABOUT THE EXISTENCE AND RECOGNITION OF THE POTENTIAL VICTIMS, WE CAN HELP AROUND THE EDGES.

BUT IT'S A REALLY INTRACTABLE PROBLEM.

SO, YEAH THIS IS CLEARLY -- THIS ONE LITTLE NEWS STORY IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE WHAT IS SUCH A HORRIFIC PROBLEM WE FACE AS, REALLY, GLOBAL COMMUNITY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: [CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie Erbe: WE TEND TO THINK OF TRAFFICKING AS A PROBLEM FOR POORER COUNTRIES IN ASIA OR AFRICA, BUT WE'VE GOT IT GOING ON HERE?

>> Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever: OH, YEAH.

IT'S WORLDWIDE.

I MEAN, THERE REALLY IS NO INCOME LIMITATION WITH THIS.

BUT FOR ME, THE ANSWER IS ABOUT CONSEQUENCES.

AS LONG AS PEOPLE DON'T GO TO JAIL, AS LONG AS PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TO PAY -- AND IT DOESN'T HURT PRINCE ANDREW'S FAMILY TO PAY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO ANYBODY.

IT DOES NOT HURT THEM.

THEY HAVE AN ENDLESS FLOW OF MONEY FROM THE BRITISH PEOPLE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

OKAY?

SO THAT DOES NOT HURT ANYONE.

YOU KNOW, AND I FIND IT, QUITE FRIENDLY, VERY HYPOCRITICAL THAT THEY ARE IN ESSENCE PROTECTING THE SEXUAL ABUSER, IT SEEMS LIKE, WHILE THEY EXCOMMUNICATE PRINCE HARRY AND WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRINCESS MEGHAN MARKLE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY INTERESTING TO ME HOW THE ROYAL FAMILY CREATES THESE MEDIA, SORT OF PIVOTS THAT PROTECTS ONE OF THEIR OWN.

BUT EVEN WHEN THEY COMMIT, IT LOOKS LIKE IF YOU ARE PAYING -- SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE PROBABLY COMMITTED THESE HORRIBLE CRIMES, BUT AT THE SAME TIME YOU ARE CLUTCHING YOUR PEARLS WHEN WHAT WOULD'VE HONESTLY BEEN THE HEIR APPARENT TO PRINCESS DIANA'S TYPE OF CHARISMA WHEN SHE COMES INTO THE FAMILY, BUT AT THE DIFFERENT HUE, THEY CAN HANDLE IT AND THEY GET RID OF HER.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, WHEN YOU SAY THAT -- WHEN YOU SAY THEY ARE PAYING FOR IT, ARE THEY NOT GOING TO -- I THOUGHT THERE WAS SOME ATTEMPT TO MAKE IT COME OUT OF SOME PRIVATE FUND THAT BELONG TO THE FAMILY AS OPPOSED TO PUBLIC MONEY OF THE BRITISH TAXPAYERS.

>> Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever: WELL, LET'S BE CLEAR: IF WE LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF BRITAIN, A LOT OF THE MONEY THAT THEY HAVE IS NOT JUST FROM THE BRITISH TAXPAYER, IT'S FROM PILFERING OTHER COUNTRIES, TAKING THEIR WEALTH AND THEN CLAIMING IT AS THEIRS.

MY POINT IS IT DOES NOT HURT THEM ANY TO BE ABLE TO PAID, NO MATTER WHERE THEY GOT THIS MONEY FROM, TO PAY OFF THIS WOMAN.

IT DOESN'T HURT THEM AT ALL.

AND AS LONG AS THERE ARE NO CONSEQUENCES TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE DEMAND IN TERMS OF SEX TRAFFICKING, THERE WILL NEVER BE AN END TO THIS PROBLEM.

>> Bonnie Erbe: TIANA, YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE FUTURE OF THE BRITISH MONARCHY AND SEX TRAFFICKING AND HOW THOSE TWO INTERRELATE.

>> Tiana Lowe: SO OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF pSTIR IN AMERICAN TABLET MIRROR -- MEDIA ABOUT PRINCE HARRY'S MEMOIR.

THAT'S NOT THE ONE THAT MENTIMETERS.

THE ONE A MANASSAS, VIRGINIA ROBERTS' BECAUSE HER SETTLEMENT DID NOT INCLUDE AN NDA.

THE REAL QUESTION THAT THE PERSISTENCE ARGOSY GOING TO HAVE IS THE QUESTION OF WAS, WAS THE SETTLEMENT TAXPAYER-FUNDED?

WERE THEIR TAX DOLLARS GOING TO THE QUEEN AND THEN DID THE QUEEN FUND, YOU KNOW, THE ATTEMPT TO SILENCE AND SMEAR A VERY LEGITIMATE RAPE ACCUSER?

MEAN, PRINCE CHARLES HAS LONG SAID THAT HE WANTS TO DOWNSIZE THE MONARCHY.

YOU KNOW, HE WANTS TO TURN BUCKINGHAM PALACE IN PART TWO, YOU KNOW, MORE OF A MUSEUM, MORE PUBLIC.

HE WANTED TO BE HIM, CAMILLA, WILLIAM, AND HIS FAMILY.

SO QUITE FRANKLY, MEGXIT COULD NOT HAVE COME AT A BETTER TIME BECAUSE HE DOES NOT WANT EVERYONE ELSE AROUND.

THE FUTURE WILL JUST BE BASICALLY, WILL THEY TRY TO NORMALIZE PRINCE ANDREW OR WILL IT BE CLEARED OR DONE?

NOT ONLY ARE YOU NO LONGER GOING TO BE ON THE BALCONY, NOT ONLY ARE GOING TO BE NO LONGER IN PUBLIC EVENTS, BUT YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR US.

PRINCE CHARLES, AS SOMEONE WHO IS VERY WELL CONNECTED IN THIS, HE HE WAS A HUGE ENVIRONMENTALIST AND CARED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE LONG BEFORE IT WAS INVOKED TO DO SO.

SO CAN HE BE FORWARD THINKING?

AND REALLY, THE FUTURE RESTS WITH WILLIAM AND KATE AND CAN THEY KEEP THEIR CONNECTION TO YORK OVER?> Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever: YUP.

>> Bonnie Erbe: SAM, GO AHEAD.

>> Sam Bennett: I CANNOT AGREE MORE.

IS THE NEXT GENERATION IS GOING TO BE SHAPING THE FUTURE OF THE MONARCHY, NUT ROLLS, NOT CAMILLA -- >> Bonnie Erbe: AND WHY SHOULD AMERICANS CARE ABOUT WHETHER THERE IS A MONARCHY OR NOT?

>> Sam Bennett: HEY, IT'S GREAT MAGAZINE FODDER!

[LAUGHTER] [CROSS TALK] >> Carrie Lukas: SO WE SHOULDN'T AS FAR AS WE CAN DO THAT, TALKING ABOUT THESE FOLKS, WHO CARES?

YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF THINGS DON'T SEEM LIKE THE BEST PEOPLE.

>> Bonnie Erbe: AGREED, BUT, I MEAN, THE TABLOIDS, THE NEW YORK POST, YOU KNOW, WHERE WOULD THEY BE WITHOUT THE DAILY MAIL IN THE UNITED STATES, WHERE WOULD THEY BE WITHOUT THE ROYAL FAMILY?

ALL RIGHT.

FROM THE BRITISH SCHEDULED TO MARRIED AND MOVING: MARRIED COUPLES ARE LESS LIKELY THAN EVER TO PRIORITIZE THE HUSBAND'S CAREER OVER THE WIFE'S WHEN MOVING FOR A NEW JOB OPPORTUNITIES.

THAT, ACCORDING TO A NEW STUDY FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS, WHICH LOOKED AT PEOPLE MOVING FOR THE SAKE OF THEIR CAREERS.

RESEARCHERS FOUND WHEN THE WIFE AND HUSBAND HAD SIMILAR INCOME LEVELS, THEY WERE LESS LIKELY TO MOVE TO ANOTHER STATE FOR A JOB.

BUT FAMILIES AND HOUSEHOLDS WHERE THE MAN WAS THE PRIMARY BREADWINNER WERE MORE LIKELY TO MOVE.

CHANGING SOCIETAL ATTITUDES EXPLAIN THE SHIFT.

IN THE PAST, THE MAN WAS EXPECTED TO BE THE SOLE EARNER.

BUT TODAY, TWO INCOME HOUSEHOLDS ARE MUCH MORE COMMON.

FAMILIES NOW ARE RELUCTANT TO MOVE AND UPROOT THE CAREER OF EITHER BREADWINNER.

SO, CARRIE LUKAS, IN THE AGE OF WORKING FROM HOME IN THE PANDEMIC, HOW RELEVANT IS MOVING FOR ONE PERSON'S JOB OR THE OTHER, OR HAS IT BECOME -- >> Carrie Lukas: YEAH.

I THINK IS STILL VERY RELEVANT.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S A LOT OF FAMILIES, STILL A MINORITY OF JOBS THAT ARE WORK FROM HOME, FLEXIBLE, AND THAT'S KIND OF AN ELITE PROBLEM WHERE THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO STILL HAVE THESE -- HAVE TO BE IN AN OFFICE IN MAKING THESE DECISIONS.

OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE MOVING BEYOND THAT.

THE WOMEN ARE INCREASINGLY POWERFUL PART OF THE WORKFORCE.

THERE IS A GROWING NUMBER OF WOMEN WHO ARE TAKE-HOME BIGGER SALARIES, ARE THE PRIMARY OR NURSE FOR THEIR FAMILY!

IT MAKES SENSE THAT THOSE GENDER ROLES ARE CHANGING.

AND CAMINO, I DO THINK THAT YOU ARE RIGHT, BONNIE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S INTERESTING IS THAT OFTENTIMES I THINK ONE SOMEBODY'S JOB IS MORE TRANSFERABLE, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT REALLY DISCUSSED IN THE STUDY, SOME PEOPLE HAVE, YOU KNOW, THEIR JOBS ARE STICKIER WHERE THEY CAN MOVE MORE EASILY THAN OTHERS, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS OCCUPATIONAL LICENSING REGIMES THAT MAKE IT SO SOMEBODY HAS TO STAY IN THE STATE OR HAVE TO GO TO ANOTHER STATE FOR BETTER OPPORTUNITIES.

SOME OF THOSE MAKE IT KIND OF ARTIFICIAL AND WOMEN'S JOBS ARE MORE LIKELY TO REQUIRE LICENSES.

SO THAT CAN MAKE IT A LOT HARDER FOR WOMEN.

THAT'S VERY RIGHT.

I THINK EVERYONE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT ITS EASIER TO CARRY LICENSES ACROSS STATE LINES.

>> Bonnie Erbe: IT IS PRETTY AMAZING, ISN'T IT, THAT IN THIS TIME OF COVID AND A WHOLE LOT MORE TELECOMMUTING, AT LEAST IN JOBS AND INDUSTRIES WHERE IT'S POSSIBLE, NOT IN THE LOWER PAYING INDUSTRIES WHICH ARE OVERPOPULATED WITH WOMEN COMPARED TO THEIR PERCENTAGE IN THE WORKFORCE, BUT THAT WOMEN STILL TEND, ESPECIALLY AT THE LOWER RUNGS OF THE ECONOMY, THEY STILL TEND TO OUT EARN THEIR HUSBANDS.

HOW OFTEN IS THAT HAPPENING, AVIS?

HOW OFTEN IS IT THAT WOMEN ARE OUT EARNING THEIR HUSBANDS AND THEREFORE -- I MEAN, ANY FAMILY IS GOING TO HAVE TO BASE MOVING ON -- TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION.

>> Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever: YOU KNOW, IT'S HAPPENING INCREASINGLY.

I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S AN INCREASING TREND BUT NOT NECESSARILY THE NORM YET, BUT INCREASING TREND.

WE DO WORK DIFFERENTLY WHERE WE CAN.

AS YOU MENTIONED, THOSE JOBS THAT ARE -- AND TO HAVE MORE HIGHER EDUCATED PEOPLE WITHIN THEM TEND TO HAVE MORE WORKPLACE POSSIBILITY.

THEY ARE THE JOBS THAT ARE MOST EASILY TRANSFERABLE TO DO THE ONLINE SPACE ONCE WE EXPERIENCE THIS PANDEMIC, AND A LOT OF COMPANIES HAVE COME TO FIGURE OUT, HEY, IT'S A LOT CHEAPER FOR MY WORKFORCE TO BE ONLINE RATHER THAN FOR ME TO CONTINUE TO PAY ALL THIS COMMERCIAL RENT, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND SO, SOME OF THOSE COMPANIES WILL NEVER GO BACK TO 100 PERCENT VIRTUAL -- IN PERSON.

I'M ALSO THINKING ABOUT MY SON'S EXPERIENCE: HE'S FINISHING HIS MBA THIS YEAR.

HE STARTING WITH THE TECH COMPANY THAT'S TECHNICALLY BASED IN THE WEST COAST, BUT HIS JOB IS LOCATION INDEPENDENT.HEY HAVE TOLD HIM THAT HE CAN LIVE ANYWHERE HE WANTS TO AS LONG AS HE'S WITHIN A REASONABLE DISTANCE OF AN AIRPORT.

THAT'S THE ONLY RESTRICTION THAT HE HAS AND I REALLY THINK THAT THIS IS THE DIRECTION OF THE FUTURE OF THE WORKFORCE.

BUT AS YOU MENTIONED, UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE WHO WORK LOW-WAGE, OFTENTIMES SERVICE LEVEL JOBS, DO NOT HAVE THAT FREEDOM.

AND SO, THEY ARE VERY MUCH SPECIFICALLY STUCK TO A SPECIFIC GEOGRAPHIC AREA AND THAT SOMETHING THAT THE VIRTUAL WORLD IS NOT GOING TO GET THEM OUT OF.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT OUR SOCIETY THAT WITHIN PRETTY MUCH NEW GENERATION OR TWO, WOMEN HAVE GONE FROM BEING SECONDARY BREADWINNERS TO PRIMARY BREADWINNERS IN MUCH GREATER NUMBERS?

>> Sam Bennett: I THINK IT'S THRILLING.

WHAT IT SAYS TO ME IS THAT, JUST LIKE WHAT IT IS FOR WOMEN RUNNING FOR OFFICE, RIGHT?

THE MORE WOMEN WE HAVE IN THE PIPELINE, THE MORE HI -- THE MORE WOMEN WE ARE GOING TO WIN.

RIGHT.

SO IF WE HAVE MORE WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE, THAT IS GOING TO CHANGE THE DYNAMIC.

IT MEANS MORE WOMEN ARE GOING TO ASCEND AND MOVE TO THOSE HIGHER PAYING JOBS.

I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS A GENERAL SALES MANAGER FOR BELL ATLANTIC IN A PREVIOUS INCARNATION, AND I HAD A YOUNG WOMAN, TERRIFIC SALESWOMAN WHO WANTED TO WORK FROM HOME TWO DAYS A WEEK SO SHE HAD TWO LITTLE ONES.HE WAS OUR TOP-PERFORMING REP, BONNIE.

THE HIGHER-UPS, ALL WHITE MEN, RIGHT, OLDER WHITE MAN, OH, WE CAN DO THAT, BECAUSE IF WE DO THAT, EVERYONE'S GOING TO WANT TO DO IT.

THAT WAS 25 YEARS AGO.

LOOK AT HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED SINCE THEN.

SO I THINK THAT BECAUSE WE HAVE MORE WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE, TELL ME IF I'M WRONG, ANY OF THE OTHER PANELISTS, ARMED WITH 55 PERCENT OF THE WORKFORCE OR MORE IN AGGREGATE NOW?

I THINK MORE WOMEN -- I COULD BE WRONG, BUT WITH SO MANY WOMEN, THE CHANCE THAT THEY WILL SEND, BONNIE, TO HIGHER LEVELS OF ACHIEVEMENT IN EARNING POWER IS ALMOST MATHEMATICALLY GUARANTEED.

SO IT'S GREAT.

>> Bonnie Erbe: BUT THE RIGHT, CARRIE, IF I MAY -- OR, TIANA, JUMP IN, THE RIGHT IS NOT SEE THIS IS A GOOD THING.

IT SEEMS WOMEN THE MASCULINIZED IN, IF YOU WILL, MEN.

>> Tiana Lowe: BONNIE, BONNIE -- [CROSS TALK] >> Tiana Lowe: YOU HAVE TWO CONSERVATIVE WOMEN ON THIS PLANET WHO ARE CLEARLY WORKING AND CLEARLY HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.

BUT THE ISSUE -- [CROSS TALK]> Bonnie Erbe: BUT YOU DO DIFFERENT THAT WAY FROM A LOT OF CONSERVATIVES WHO FEEL -- [INDISCERNIBLE] [CROSS TALK] >> Carrie Lukas: FIND A PANELIST WHO IS WILLING TO SAY FIND A CONSERVATIVE MAN WHO TO SAY I WANT WOMEN TO WORK.

THAT'S A VERY 50 YEARS AGO -- [CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie Erbe: NOT WORKING, OUTRUNNING.

>> Tiana Lowe: BONNIE, I DON'T THINK THE OUTRUNNING THING, THE CONCERN IS NOT THAT WOMEN ARE EARNING TOO MUCH MONEY, THE CONCERN IS THAT WHEN WOMEN ARE WIDELY OVERREPRESENTED IN HIGHER EDUCATION, WE GET 60 PERCENT OF ALL BACHELOR DEGREES AND EVEN MORE OF HIGHER EDUCATION DEGREES.

IT CREATES A MISMATCH IN THE MARRIAGE MARKET THAT REDUCES OUR FERTILITY RATE, BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, AND THIS IS A SOCIETAL PROBLEM I WISH DID NOT EXIST.

I WISH PEOPLE MAY READ MORE OUTSIDE OF THEIR EDUCATIONAL STRATA, OUTSIDE OF THE INCOME STRATA.

WE DO HAVE A WEIRD ELITISM AND WEIRD SOCIETAL DISDAIN FOR A LOT OF CRUCIAL BLUE-COLLAR JOBS THAT I THINK WE'VE ALL COME TO APPRECIATE A LOT MORE DURING THE PANDEMIC.

THE CONSERVATIVE CONCERN IS THAT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MARRIAGE BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE GENDER DISPARITIES WITHIN SOCIAL STRATAs.

THAT IS THE CONCERN.

THE CONCERN IS NOT THAT WOMEN ARE DOING TOO WELL, IT HAD WE BRING THAT UP WITH US?

>> Carrie Lukas: I WILL PICK UP ON TIANA'S POINT, BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE FRUSTRATIONS FOR A LOT OF DISH FISH THIS IS AND JUST CONSERVATIVES, BUT THIS IS A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT IN AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITIES, AND OTHER MINORITY COMMUNITIES WHERE WE HAVE A MAIL -- MALE CRISIS.

I'M ALL FOR WOMEN DOING FABULOUSLY, AND LET'S MAKE WOMEN EARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, BUT WE ALSO WHAT WAS UNDERSTOOD WELL.

WE WANT OUR HUSBANDS TO DO WELL.

WE WILL NEVER PRODUCE -- OF FEELING SOMETIMES THIS BECOMES A, OH, WE ALL WANT WOMEN TO WIN, BUT THAT'S GREAT.

pWE WANT WOMEN TO WIN BUT WE WANT MEN TO WIN TOO.

WE DON'T WANT OUR BOYS LEFT BEHIND.

AND ITS GROSS -- WOMEN ARE OUTRUNNING MEN BECAUSE MEN ARE FALLING OUT OF THE WORKFORCE AND BECOMING DRUG ADDICTS AND ADDICTED TO VIDEO GAMES, THAT'S A PROBLEM FOR ALL OF US.

THAT'S A HUMAN TRAGEDY.

AND SO, I DON'T WANT TO BE SO BINARY AND THINKING THAT ONLY ROOTING FOR, YOU KNOW, X X CHROMOSOME MEMBERS OF SOCIETY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: WELL, THAT'S WHAT I WAS ALLUDING TO EARLIER WHEN HE SAID IT DIDN'T EXIST, IS THAT THERE IS MORE OF A CONCERN FROM CONSERVATIVE CIRCLES THAT MEN ARE BEING DENUDED BY WOMEN'S PROGRESS.

AND, YES -- >> Carrie Lukas: I DON'T WANT TO -- I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT: IT'S NOT CONCERNED ABOUT WOMEN DOING WELL, IT'S ABOUT MEN DOING BADLY.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

ALSO, ALSO THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO DROPPED OUT OF THE WORKFORCE, AND WE HAD A HUGE DROP OUT DURING THE PANDEMIC, WERE WOMEN.

>> Tiana Lowe: BUT, BONNIE, BUT, BONNIE, BUT, BONNIE, YOU CANNOT DIVORCE THE FACT THAT WOMEN DROPPED OUT OF THE PANDEMIC FROM THE FACT THAT THE SCHOOLS WERE CLOSED AND THEY WERE CLOSED IN EFFECT FOR UPWARDS OF YEAR IN MOST BLUE CITIES AND URBAN AREAS.

THE FACT IS THAT THOSE HOME CHILD CARRYING DUTIES DID FALLEN WOMEN AND STILL, WHEN YOU HAVE AREAS LIKE FLINT, MICHIGAN, THAT ARE STILL 100 PERCENT REMOTE AND WE HAVE PLACES LIKE D.C. THAT CAN TRIGGER, YOU KNOW, WEEKLONG QUARANTINES BECAUSE WANT TO TEST POSITIVE FOR COVID, THE BURDEN FALLS ON THE MOM BECAUSE SHE COULD NOT KEEP A JOB IF IT IS A JOB.

>> Bonnie Erbe: OKAY.

WELL, THAT GETS US TO THE END OF THE SEGMENT.

SO THANK YOU FOR WATCHING THIS MOST RECENT EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY".

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