>>> SINCE THE START OF HIS SECOND TERM, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SIGNED A NUMBER OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS TARGETING DEI POLICIES.

IT IS GENERALLY ERODING THE, QUOTE, MELTING POT IDENTITY THE U.S.

ONCE PRIDED ITSELF ON.

A PRINCETON PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES AND THE CO-FOUNDER OF BLACK CULTURE AND POLITICS MAGAZINE HAMMER AND HOPE, SHE DESCRIBES A WHITE SUPREMACY IN DONALD TRUMP'S WHITE HOUSE AND JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE ROLLBACK OF CIVIL RIGHTS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION TO BE HERE.

>> YOU WROTE AN INTERESTING PIECE.

WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT A THROUGH LINE OF NOT JUST THE RHETORIC BUT THE POLICIES OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, A LOT OF THE RHETORIC OF THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN SORT OF FOCUSING ON HOW WHITE AMERICANS ARE BEING DISADVANTAGED.

AND THAT WHITE AMERICANS ARE BEING SORT OF TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF.

THEY'RE BEING OVERLOOKED, SORT OF BYPASSED.

IN YOUR PIECE, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT, IS FOR EXAMPLE, THE FEDERAL JOB CUTS THAT TOOK PLACE AT THE EARLY STAGES OF THE SECOND TRUMP BLACK WOMEN WERE THE HARDEST HIT.

ANOTHER ESSAYIST WHO CONTRIBUTES TO YOUR MAGAZINE POINTED OUT BLACK WOMEN ARE THE DOMINANT GROUP THAT LOST JOBS DURING THAT WHOLE JOB-CUTTING INITIATIVE HEADED BY ELON MUSK.

SO THE FIRST QUESTION I HAD FOR YOU IS WHY IS THAT?

BLACK WOMEN COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SPECIFICALLY TARGETED.

I MEAN, IT'S ILLEGAL.

YOU CAN'T SAY WE'RE GOING TO FIRE ALL THE BLACK WOMEN.

SO HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S, OF COURSE, IMPERMISSIBLE IN THE LAW.

BUT I THINK THAT IT'S ALSO NOT A COINCIDENCE.

YOU KNOW, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOGE AT THE TIME TARGETED CERTAIN AGENCIES WITHIN THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE TO, UH, SORT OF TAKE THE HARSHEST BUDGET CUTS.

AND I DON'T REALLY THINK IT'S A COINCIDENCE THAT MANY OF THOSE AGENCIES AND ORGANIZATIONS WITHIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WERE POPULATED BY BLACK WOMEN.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE INTERNAL MEMOS AND KIND OF BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN PEOPLE WITHIN THE AGENCIES, THAT THEY HAVE OFFERED AN EXPLANATION FOR AT LEAST PART OF THE REASON WHY THEY WERE HAVING THE JOB CUTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND PART OF THOSE EXPLANATIONS ARTICULATED THROUGH THESE MEMOS WAS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR TOO LONG HAD BEEN ENGAGED IN EQUITY, ANTI-DISCRIMINATION HIRING, WHICH TO ME CAN BE READ AS KIND OF A CODE FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS HIRING BLACK PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT QUALIFIED FOR THESE POSITIONS.

AND SO I DO THINK THAT THERE'S SOME OVERLAP BETWEEN THAT IDEA THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN ENGAGED IN DISCRIMINATION OTHER ACTIONS THAT WERE TAKEN WITHIN FEDERAL AGENCIES, WHICH INCLUDED DISMANTLING THE WEBSITE THAT ALLOWS THE PUBLIC TO MONITOR WHO IS HIRED AND FIRED, WHO WORKS FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AS A WAY TO AT LEAST LOOK AT THE DISTRIBUTION OF RACE AND GENDER WITHIN THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE.

THAT WEBSITE WAS DISMANTLED.

WITHIN THESE MEMOS THAT I'M DESCRIBING, PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE JOB CUTS SAID NOT TO MENTION THE RACE OR GENDER OF PEOPLE WHO WERE BEING LAID OFF.

SO I THINK THAT IT'S NOT LEGAL, BUT AS WE'VE SEEN IN OTHER ASPECTS OF UNDERTAKINGS BY THIS ADMINISTRATION, THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY AN IMPEDIMENT TO THEIR ACTIONS.

>> JUST TO GIVE THE DATA THAT YOU CITE IN YOUR PIECE, BLACK WOMEN LOST 318,000 JOBS IN THE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTORS BETWEEN FEBRUARY AND APRIL OF LAST YEAR.

THAT IS WHEN THIS JOB-CUTTING INITIATIVE WAS AT ITS MOST ROBUST.

THEY WERE THE ONLY MAJOR FEMALE DEMOGRAPHIC TO EXPERIENCE SIGNIFICANT JOB LOSSES DURING THAT PERIOD.

AND AS YOU POINTED OUT, THAT AFTER THE ACLU AND OTHER EMPLOYMENT LAWYERS ALLEGED THAT THE TRUMP LAYOFFS DISPROPORTIONATELY SINGLED OUT FEDERAL WORKERS WHO WERE NOT MALE OR WHITE, THE ADMINISTRATION TOOK DOWN THE WEBSITE TO MAKE IT HARDER TO ACTUALLY TRACK THIS.

ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES WHO ALSO WRITES FOR THE SAME JOURNAL IN WHICH YOU PUBLISHED THIS PIECE, NATALIE MOORE POINTED OUT BLACK WOMEN COMPRISE 6% OH OF THE OVERALL U.S.

LABOR FORCE AND 12% OF THE FEDERAL LABOR FORCE.

OF THE JOBS CUT IN 2025, SHE POINTED OUT BLACK WOMEN WERE A STUNNING 33% OF THOSE CUTS.

I WAS JUST CURIOUS WHEN YOU LOOKED INTO THESE NUMBERS YOURSELF, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

>> YEAH.

THE JOB CUTS THEMSELVES ARE SHOCKING.

ONE, JUST BECAUSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS THE REASON WHY AFRICAN AMERICANS IN PARTICULAR HAVE GRAVITATED TOWARD WORK WITHIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS BECAUSE OF ANTI- DISCRIMINATION LAWS.

THAT THIS WAS KIND OF THE LAST FRONTIER WHERE THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF BLACK WORKERS WOULD BE PROTECTED.

AND TO SEE THAT JUST REALLY TORN UP IS SHOCKING.

AND EVEN WITHIN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, A LOT OF THESE LAYOFFS HAVE BEEN CONCENTRATED IN DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION FIELDS THAT HAVE BEEN DEVASTATED AS A RESULT OF THE KIND OF TRUMP DIRECTIVE TO THE THESE JOBS AND TO GET RID OF REALLY THE PEOPLE WHO POPULATE THEM.

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IT POINTS TO A PARTICULAR WAY THAT IN THIS ADMINISTRATION THAT IT'S REALLY UPWARDLY MOBILE BLACK PEOPLE, BLACK PROFESSIONALS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

AND I THINK IN SOME WAYS, THE REASON FOR THAT IS BECAUSE IT FULFILLS A PART OF THE TRUMP NARRATIVE THAT WHITE WORKERS WHO MAY BE FACING UNEMPLOYMENT, ECONOMIC INSECURITY, AND DOWNWARD MOBILITY SHOULD BLAME BLACK PEOPLE FOR THAT.

AND SHOULD BLAME ALSO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR IN ITS KIND OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S RATIONALE, THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING SOMETHING IMPROPER, HAS PLACED ITS THUMBS ON THE SCALES TO HELP BLACK PEOPLE AT THE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS SOMEHOW CHOSEN TO ASSIST BLACK PEOPLE TO CREATE THIS UPWARD MOBILITY BY HIRING PEOPLE WHO DID NOT BELONG IN THESE JOBS.

AND THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SEES ITSELF AS CORRECTING THIS PROBLEM.

>> YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS A VARIATION ON THE WELFARE QUEEN TROPE.

THIS NOBODY THAT THESE UNDESERVING POOR PEOPLE ARE GETTING STUFF FROM THE GOVERNMENT.

TELL US WHAT YOUR THESIS IS.

>> WELL, IT'S REALLY A SHIFT AWAY FROM THE WAY THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN PARTICULAR BUT ALSO IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION THAT THERE HAS BEEN A FOCUS ON BLACK POOR PEOPLE.

THAT THERE HAS BEEN A FIXATION WITH BLACK PEOPLE ALLEGEDLY USING UP TOO MUCH SOCIAL WELFARE.

THAT HAS BEEN A FOCAL POINT OF POLITICS FOR DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FOR TWO GENERATIONS.

AND PART OF WHAT I'M ARGUING IN THIS ARTICLE IS THAT FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE LAST DECADE OR THE LAST 15 YEARS, THAT THE BASE OF THE PARTY HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY TO NOW INCLUDE MANY MORE POOR WHITE PEOPLE, POOR WHITE PEOPLE WHO UTILIZE MEDICAID, POOR WHITE PEOPLE WHO UTILIZE FOOD STAMPS AND OTHER PARTS OF THE SOCIAL WELFARE STATE THAT HAVE REALLY COMPLICATED THE TYPICAL KIND OF SCAPEGOATING OF POOR PEOPLE ABUSING THE WELFARE SYSTEM AS A POLITICAL FOCAL POINT.

AND SO INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON THE PLIGHT OF THE POOR, THEY'VE NOW BEGUN TO FOCUS ON UPWARDLY MOBILE BLACK PEOPLE AS THE REAL PROBLEM.

AND THE ROLE OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN ASSISTING THESE PEOPLE UP THE LADDER INTO STABLE JOBS, INTO STABLE WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THAT THERE HAS BEEN THIS PRONOUNCED DOWNWARD MOBILITY OF WHITE PEOPLE THAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED OVER THE LAST DECADE IN THE FRAMEWORK OF THE DEATHS BY DESPAIR LANGUAGE.

AND PART OF WHAT I'M TRYING TO ARGUE IS THAT IT'S UNTRUE.

AND THAT IF YOU LOOK AT ANY OF THE KIND OF SOCIAL MEASURES OF THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES, BLACK PEOPLE STILL COME OUT LOWER IN THE SOCIAL HIERARCHY THAN MOST WHITE PEOPLE.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THERE'S NOT A HARDSHIP AMONG WHITE PEOPLE.

JUST AS IT DOESN'T MEAN THERE HAS NOT BEEN AN EXPANSION OF THE BLACK MIDDLE CLASS.

AND OVER THE LAST TWO GENERATIONS, THE DEVELOPMENT OF A BLACK POLITICAL ELITE.

OR THE DEVELOPMENT OF A BLACK ECONOMIC ELITE.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SORT OF AVERAGE EXPERIENCE OF YOUR EVERYDAY WORKING CLASS OR MIDDLE CLASS BLACK PERSON, THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INDUSTRY IN WHICH BLACK PEOPLE ARE DOING BETTER THAN WHITE PEOPLE.

WITHIN THE HOUSING MARKET, BLACK HOUSING IS VALUED AT LESS THAN IT IS FOR WHITE PEOPLE.

AND EVERY STEP ALONG THE WAY WITHIN THESE SOCIAL BAROMETERS, BLACK PEOPLE COME OUT WORSE.

SO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REALLY IN TRYING TO PROMOTE THIS ARGUMENT IS ENGAGING IN DISHONESTY REALLY.

>> I'M NOT SURE IF IT'S THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> RIGHT.

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS NOT MADE IT A SECRET THAT HE LOOKS WITH DISDAIN UPON THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

AND ALSO HAS ENGAGED IN JUST SORT OF CULTURAL LANGUAGE THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE SORT OF DISCOURSE THAT PEOPLE FIND OFFENSIVE.

I DON'T NEED TO REMIND PEOPLE OF THAT SOCIAL MEDIA POST THAT HE RE, THAT HE SHARED WITH THE OBAMAS FACES SUPERIMPOSED UPON IMAGES OF MONKEYS.

HIS SPOKESMAN TRIED TO ARGUE THAT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE DEPICTED AS ZOO ANIMALS, BUT I THINK FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS AND MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE PAYING ATTENTION, THAT OBVIOUSLY EVOKES SOME VERY SPECIFIC STEREOTYPES.

>> IT'S MUCH DEEPER THAN THAT.

I THINK WE CAN SAY THAT, UH, THIS ADMINISTRATION REALLY HAS EMBRACED THE POLITICS OF WHITE SUPREMACY IN A VERY OPEN WAY.

PROBABLY IN WAYS THAT ARE UNHEARD OF IN THE MODERN PRESIDENCY.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE SUPREMACY, BECAUSE WHEN I READ YOUR PIECE TO INDICATE THEY'VE EMBRACED A POLITICS OF WHITE VICTIMIZATION.

IS THAT THE SAME THING?

THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE BEING VICTIMIZED BY UNQUALIFIED, UNFAIR SYSTEMS THAT ARE PUTTING THEM AT A DISADVANTAGE.

SO WHY DO YOU SAY IT'S WHITE SUPREMACY?

>> IN THEIR CALCULATION, THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR.

I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT NOT JUST THE TREATMENT OR THE DISCOURSE AROUND BLACK PEOPLE, BUT THE IDEA THAT HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS ARE EATING CATS AND DOGS IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO.

THAT SOMALIAN AMERICANS OR SOMALIAN REFUGEES CAN JUST BE DISMISSED AS A FRAUDULENT POPULATION.

THAT THE ENTIRE GROUP ENGAGES IN FRAUDULENT PRACTICES.

THAT THE ADMINISTRATION ON THE ONE HAND SAYS THAT WE SHOULD LOOK TO INDIVIDUAL MERIT AS OPPOSED TO GROUP RIGHTS.

AND YET CONSTANTLY DISPARAGES GROUPS, GROUPS OF PEOPLE.

WHETHER THEY'RE HAITIAN IMMIGRANTS, WHETHER THEY'RE THEY ARE MEXICAN IMMIGRANTS OR MEXICAN-AMERICANS OR BLACK AMERICANS.

SO I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE RHETORIC OF THE ADMINISTRATION, JD VANCE GOES TO TURNING POINT USA, AND SAYS THAT WHITE AMERICANS NO LONGER HAVE TO APOLOGIZE FOR BEING WHITE IN THE UNITED STATES.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE RHETORIC AND THE WAYS THAT CERTAIN GROUPS ARE BEING ATTACKED, IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THAT SOME OF THE FEDERAL AGENCIES ARE PROMOTING THE WORK OF THEIR AGENCIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY CONSTANTLY INVOKING THE TROPES AND IMAGERY OF WHITE SUPREMACY.

THAT THERE IS AN IDEA THAT IS MOTIVATING SOME PART.

I DON'T THINK THE ENTIRE AGENDA BUT SOME PART OF IT THAT BLACK PEOPLE AND OTHER NON-WHITE PEOPLE ARE INFERIOR TO WHITE PEOPLE.

AND THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT THEY BELIEVE HAS BEEN AT LEAST SINCE THE SIGNING OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT IN 1964 IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S ROLE IN PROMOTING WHAT THEY BELIEVE TO BE AN INFERIOR GROUP OF PEOPLE.

>> HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FACT, THOUGH, THAT THE PERCENTAGE OF BLACK WOMEN WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP HAS INCREASED IN EVERY SINGLE ELECTION IN WHICH HE HAS RUN.

IT WENT FROM 6%, MAYBE EVEN LESS IN 2016 TO 10% IN 2024.

HOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT PART OF THAT, AND I THINK THIS IS PART OF THE ATTRACTION TO TRUMP FOR SOME PEOPLE.

NOT IN TOTALITY.

BUT I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN A REAL INABILITY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO PROMOTE POLICIES OVER A PERIOD OF TIME THAT HAVE REALLY CHANGED FOR THE BETTER THE LIVELIHOODS OF ORDINARY AMERICANS.

AND I THINK THAT INCLUDES BLACK I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT DEVELOPED DURING THE PRESIDENCY OF BARACK OBAMA, BECAUSE PEOPLE HAD SUCH HIGH EXPECTATIONS THAT THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT, THAT THINGS WOULD CHANGE.

AND YET, THERE WAS THIS NAGGING, GNAWING CONTINUITY.

I THINK THAT WAS THE SAME THING WITH THE PRESIDENCY OF JOE BIDEN, WHICH IS NOT TO SAY THAT THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO THINGS AND ENACT THINGS, BUT IT WASN'T ENOUGH RELATIVE TO THE SCALE OF CRISIS THAT PEOPLE WERE EXPERIENCING IN THEIR LIVES.

AND THROUGHOUT THIS 10 OR 15- YEAR PERIOD, IT IS REALLY WORKING CLASS AND POOR AFRICAN AMERICANS WHO EXPERIENCE THE BRUNT OF THESE CRISES.

THE LACK OF CHANGE IN PEOPLE'S DAY-TO-DAY REALITY HAVE OPENED A SMALL GROUP OF THEM UP TO LOOKING AT DIFFERENT POLITICAL ALTERNATIVES.

AND I THINK THAT HAS MEANT LOOKING AT EVEN DONALD TRUMP WHO PLAYS WITH THE GRIEVANCES OF MANY PEOPLE AND MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS.

>> YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT THE REPUBLICANS ON THE ONE HAND HAVE TOLERATED AND ARE NOW ENCOURAGING A VERY RACIST, DIVISIVE SORT OF POLITICS.

BUT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT SUCCESSFULLY ANSWERED IT WITH POLICY.

WHERE DOES THIS GO NEXT?

>> I THINK IT OPENS UP THE QUESTION OF POLITICAL MOVEMENTS IN A MUCH MORE URGENT WAY.

AND I THINK THAT WE'VE SEEN RECENTLY WITHIN THE LAST DECADE THE WAY THAT SOCIAL MOVEMENTS HAVE A WAY OF INTRODUCING NEW POLITICAL ISSUES THAT THE DOMINANT POLITICAL PARTIES WOULD LIKE TO IGNORE.

WHETHER THAT IS QUESTIONS ABOUT POLICE REFORM, WHETHER IT'S QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW PUBLIC MONEYS AND BUDGETS ARE USED, I THINK SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT CAME TO THE FRONT IN PROTEST MOVEMENT OF 2020, WHICH WAS ABOUT POLICING ON THE ONE HAND BUT IT WAS ALSO ABOUT THE DEEPER ROOTS OF RACISM AND INEQUALITY IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT IT WAS ALSO ABOUT THE ECONOMIC UNFAIRNESS THAT MEANT SOME PEOPLE WERE MORE VULNERABLE DURING COVID TO DISEASE BECAUSE THEY WERE DEEMED ESSENTIAL WORKERS EVEN THOUGH THEY WEREN'T PAID AS SUCH COMPARED TO OTHERS.

THOSE ISSUES CAME UP TO THE SURFACE PRECISELY BECAUSE THERE WERE POLITICAL ORGANIZING AND SOCIAL MOVEMENTS AFOOT ON THE GROUND THAT MADE THEM POLITICAL ISSUES.

AND I THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE THAT REALLY BECOMES THE POLITICAL ALTERNATIVE FOR PEOPLE WHO DO FEEL STUCK, WHO FEEL LIKE IT'S THE SAME KIND OF RECYCLED POLITICS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND WHO ARE DESPERATE IN NEED OF AN ALTERNATIVE THAT THE POLITICAL PARTIES SEEM INCAPABLE OF CREATING.

TO WHAT EXTENT DOES THAT THEN CREATE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR POLITICAL ORGANIZING AND SOCIAL MOVEMENTS TO RISE UP INTO THAT GAP AND TO BEGIN TO PROVIDE THAT KIND OF ALTERNATIVE?

>> PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.