>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS  LIKE YOU.

>> Jeff: THIS WEEK ON NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS, ENCAMPMENTS ON CAMPUS.

A SPECIAL ROUNDTABLE LOOKS BACK AT THE LAST FEW WEEKS  OF PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTESTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO.

>> Longa: GO ALONG THIS JOURNEY WITH US.

WE'RE ASKING FOR A DEGREE OF  TRANSPARENCY WHICH IS CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE  ABOUT THEIR INVESTMENTS.

>> Jeff: AND STANDING WITH  STUDENTS.

WHY JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE NEW MEXICO WANTS UNM TO DIVEST FROM ISRAEL.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK, I'M EXECUTIVE PRODUCER  JEFF PROCTOR.

ON APRIL 30th, POLICE  ARRESTED 16 PRO-PALESTINIAN DEMONSTRATORS AFTER THEY  OCCUPIED THE STUDENT UNION BUILDING IN A PROTEST  CALLING UPON THE UNIVERSITY TO DIVEST FROM THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

THE MOMENT FOLLOWED MORE  THAN A WEEK OF PROTESTS AT UNM'S DUCK POND.

A HOME THAT ORGANIZERS HAVE SINCE RETURNED TO AFTER  THOSE EARLY MORNING ARRESTS.

THESE ENCAMPMENTS ARE PART  OF A LARGER MOVEMENT, AS SIMILAR DEMONSTRATIONS  HAVE TAKEN PLACE AT CAMPUS GROUNDS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

LEADING TO THOUSANDS OF ARRESTS.

IT'S A COMPLEX TOPIC.

AND WE'VE DEDICATED MOST OF  THIS WEEK'S SHOW TO EXPLORING IT.

A LITTLE LATER, WE'LL HEAR FROM SOPHIE LEAH WITH JEWISH  VOICE FOR PEACE NEW MEXICO.

AS A RECENT UNM GRADUATE AND  NOW UNIVERSITY STAFFER, SOPHIE TALKS ABOUT THE  POWER OF STUDENT-LED MOVEMENTS AND THE WELCOMING  NATURE OF THIS ONE.

BUT FIRST, SOURCE NEW MEXICO  EDITOR SHAUN GRISWOLD HOSTS A ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION ON  THE MATTER WITH UNM LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR ERNESTO  LONGA WHO HELPED DRAFT THE DIVESTMENT RESOLUTION.

CIVIL RIGHTS AND CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY AHMAD  ASSED, AND DAILY LOBO MULTIMEDIA EDITOR PALOMA CHAPA.

>> Shaun: THANKS, JEFF.

ERNESTO, THE COMMON THREAD HEARD FROM PROTESTERS AT  COLLEGE CAMPUSES ACROSS THE COUNTRY IS THIS IDEA OF  DIVESTMENT.

WHAT ARE UNM'S INVESTMENTS  IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL?

WHAT WOULD DIVESTMENT LOOK LIKE?

>> Longa: OKAY, WELL, THIS IS A FAIRLY DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER.

WE KNOW THAT UNM HAS A SIGNIFICANT ENDOWMENT POOL THAT'S MANAGED BY THE UNM FOUNDATION.

>> Shaun: MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, RIGHT?

>> Longa: YEAH, HUNDREDS  MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, I BELIEVE.

UNM'S LAST FINANCIAL AUDIT REPORTED HAVING -- THEIR  CONSOLIDATED INVESTMENT POOL CONSISTING OF ABOUT $715 MILLION.

>> Shaun: AND THIS IS ALL  IN RESEARCH YOU'VE HAD TO DO INDEPENDENTLY, IS THAT CORRECT?

>> Longa: YES.

SOME OF THIS INFORMATION IS READILY AVAILABLE ON THEIR  WEB PAGES, THROUGH FINANCIAL AUDITS.

THE UNM FOUNDATION REPORTS A KIND OF HIGH-LEVEL  INFORMATION ABOUT ITS INVESTMENTS IN A SERIES OF  FUNDS BASED ON ASSET CATEGORIES AND THINGS OF  THAT TYPE.

SO, WE'VE SUBMITTED A SERIES  OF PUBLIC RECORD REQUESTS TO TRY TO GATHER SOME  ADDITIONAL INFORMATION, BUT ARE REALLY RUNNING INTO  A BIT OF A WALL.

>> Shaun: SO, DO WE  HAVE AN ACTUAL FIGURE AS TO HOW MUCH UNM IS  INVESTING IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL?

>> Longa: NO.

WE DON'T.

BUT WE HAVE BEGUN TO GATHER SOME SENSE OF MAYBE WHAT  SOME OF ITS FINANCIAL CONNECTIONS ARE TO ISRAELI  COMPANIES, PRIMARILY.

SO, SOME OF THE FUNDS THAT  UNM HAS INVESTED IN MAKE PUBLICLY AVAILABLE THEIR  HOLDINGS.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, UNM IS  INVESTED IN BLACKROCK.

ONE OF BLACKROCK'S INDEX  FUNDS.

AND WE KNOW FROM ITS  INVESTMENTS IN BLACKROCK THAT IT HAS CONNECTIONS TO  COMPANIES THAT PRODUCE MILITARY WEAPONS THAT ARE  USED, AND THAT ARE BEING USED IN THE ASSAULT ON GAZA  AND SUSTAINING THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION IN PALESTINE.

>> Shaun: THAT'S DIRECTLY RELATED TO WHAT DIVESTMENT  WOULD LOOK LIKE IF UNM WERE TO APPROACH THIS, IS THAT CORRECT?

>> Longa: YES, EXACTLY.

THERE'S SOME GOOD RESOURCES OUT THERE THAT WOULD HELP  GUIDE US IN INFORMING WHAT DIVESTMENT WOULD LOOK LIKE  FROM WHICH COMPANIES.

THE UN HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR  HUMAN RIGHTS, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS IDENTIFIED 112  BUSINESSES, MOSTLY ISRAELI COMPANIES, WHICH PROFIT OFF  OF THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION.

AS A STARTING PLACE, WE  COULD CONSULT A LIST OF THAT KIND.

OF COURSE, THERE'S OTHER DIVESTMENT LISTS THAT LOOK  AT U.S. INVOLVEMENT AS WELL.

WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS, PRIMARILY.

>> Shaun: GOT IT.

ERNESTO, IT'S VERY FASCINATING TO KNOW THAT  JUST THE AUDIT ITSELF, UNDERSTANDING WHAT THAT  NUMBER IS, IS PART OF WHAT THE GROUP THAT CREATED THE  ENCAMPMENT AT UNM IS LOOKING FOR.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'RE ASKING THE BOARD OF  REGENTS TO BEGIN, CORRECT?

IS THAT AUDIT PROCESS.

>> Longa: NO, I THINK WE'RE  ASKING THE BOARD OF REGENTS TO DO IS GO ALONG THIS  JOURNEY WITH US.

WE'RE ASKING FOR A DEGREE OF  TRANSPARENCY THAT'S CURRENTLY NOT AVAILABLE  ABOUT THEIR INVESTMENTS.

>> Shaun: PALOMA, I HAVE TO  ASK NOW.

LET'S GO TO THE ENCAMPMENTS  AND THE PROTESTS.

YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST  JOURNALISTS IN NEW MEXICO TO SEE THE ENCAMPMENT AT UNM  GET ESTABLISHED.

AND WHEN THE LOBO DID FIRST  NOTICE THIS, WHAT WAS UNMPD'S INVOLVEMENT WHEN YOU  FIRST STARTED THIS COVERAGE?

>> Chapa: DURING THE DAY, IN  THE EARLY PART OF THE AFTERNOON, THERE WAS NO  POLICE INVOLVEMENT.

WHEN THEY FIRST STARTED  PITCHING THE TENTS.

>> Shaun: THIS IS ON DAY ONE, CORRECT?

>> Chapa: YES.

IT WAS A MONDAY.

>> Shaun: A MONDAY.

>> Chapa: AND IT STARTED OUT WITH A MARCH AND RALLY.

STARTING FROM THE SUB TO THE BOOKSTORE TO THE DUCK POND.

AT THE DUCK POND IS WHEN PEOPLE STARTED BRINGING OUT  TENTS AND PITCHING THEM.

AND THERE WAS NO POLICE  PRESENCE AT THAT TIME.

UNTIL ABOUT -- WELL AT 6  P.M., THEN THEY PUT THE FIRST NOTICE ON THE TENT  THAT THIS IS A VIOLATION OF UNM POLICY.

AND THEN, AT 8 P.M., THERE WAS A RALLY THAT HAPPENED  THAT EVENING BECAUSE IT WAS ALSO EARTH DAY.

THE POLICE DID COME AND IT WAS UNM AND STATE POLICE  OFFICERS THAT CAME TO THE ENCAMPMENT,  AND BROUGHT UP POLICY AGAIN.

THEY TRIED TO MAKE THE  PROTESTERS REMOVE THE TENTS THAT WERE THERE.

BUT THEY STARTED -- THEY PICKED UP THE TENTS AND  PICKETED WITH THEM.

AND THE OFFICERS PRETTY MUCH  JUST STOOD THERE UNTIL, LIKE, LATE AT NIGHT.

AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY DO MUCH EXCEPT FOR STAND THERE.

AND I TALKED TO ONE OF THE UNMPD OFFICERS TO TRY TO GET  A STATEMENT FROM THEM, AND I DIDN'T GET ONE.

>> Shaun: WHEN DID YOU FIRST NOTICE NEW MEXICO STATE  POLICE SHOW UP ON CAMPUS AROUND THE ENCAMPMENT?

>> Chapa: IT WAS 7:51.

>> Shaun: THAT FIRST NIGHT  NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE WERE THERE?

>> Chapa: YEAH.

>> Shaun: LATER THAT NIGHT  YOUR REPORTING DID SHOW POLICE DID INTERACT WITH THE  PROTESTERS AND CLEAR OUT THE ENCAMPMENT.

LATER INTO THAT WE SAW SOME OF THE SIMILAR PATTERN  THROUGHOUT THE WEEK.

NOW, I'M CURIOUS BECAUSE THE  DUCK POND IS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF CAMPUS, WHICH  MEANS EVERYONE SEES THE ENCAMPMENT, SO WHAT HAVE YOU  NOTICED AS A REPORTER AS WELL AS AN UNM STUDENT IN  TERMS OF THE WAY FOLKS ON CAMPUS ARE INTERACTING WITH  THE PROTEST AND ENCAMPMENT?

>> Chapa: YEAH, I THINK I  HAVEN'T REALLY NOTICED MUCH OF LIKE, EXCEPT FOR ONE DAY  THERE WAS A COUNTER- PROTESTER WHO CAME IN WITH  SIGNS AND STUFF.

OTHERWISE, I HAVEN'T NOTICED  MUCH INTERACTION AS FAR AS PEOPLE OPPOSING IT.

I HAVEN'T BEEN THERE 24-7, SO I'M NOT SURE, BUT FROM  WHAT I CAN TELL THOSE WHO ARE ENGAGING THE ENCAMPMENT  ARE THERE, AND THOSE WHO AREN'T KIND OF JUST WALK BY.

FROM MY OBSERVATION.

>> Shaun: OF COURSE, IT  CAN'T BE 24-7 BECAUSE YOU'RE A STUDENT THAT HAS FINALS  THIS WEEK.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT WHAT'S  THAT BEEN LIKE TO COVER ALL OF THIS WITH FINALS GOING  ON, A LITTLE BIT LATER.

AHMAD, I WANT TO ASK YOU,  LEGALLY SPEAKING WHAT RIGHTS TO DO STUDENTS HAVE TO  PROTEST THE WAY THEY HAVE AT THE DUCK POND?

>> Assed: YOU KNOW, EVERY UNIVERSITY CAMPUS'  FUNDAMENTALS OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION AND SPEECH ARE  VITAL TO THIS DIALOGUE TO LEARNING AND SHARING  KNOWLEDGE.

AND IT IS INCUMBENT UPON  EVERY UNIVERSITY TO HAVE THAT TYPE OF ENVIRONMENT FOR  STUDENTS TO BE ABLE TO EXPRESS AND RATHER THAN  FORCIBLY SILENCE THESE FOLKS, MORE DIALOGUE AND  MORE SPEECH IS ENCOURAGED.

WITH A WIDE VARIETY OF  VIEWS.

SO THE STUDENTS HAVE EVERY  RIGHT TO PROTEST, WHETHER THE CONFINES OF THE FIRST  AMENDMENTS, AND AS LONG AS THERE ISN'T AN IMPEDIMENT TO  THE OPERATION OF THE UNIVERSITY, OR THERE ISN'T  PHYSICAL THREATS THAT ARE OCCURRING.

THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO PURSUE THEIR ABILITY TO  EXPRESS WHAT IS CHERISHED AND WHAT IS PROTECTED IN OUR  CONSTITUTION.

>> Shaun: OKAY.

AND A WEEK AFTER THE ENCAMPMENT WAS SET UP, WE  SAW THIS ESCALATE TO THE SITUATION AT THE STUDENT  UNION BUILDING.

YOU KNOW THERE'S IMAGES  AROUND US THAT SHOW A LOT OF WHAT PALOMA AND HER SISTER  AND THEIR DAILY LOBO COLLEAGUE CAUGHT.

I'M CURIOUS FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT'S  DIFFERENT FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE?

ONCE THE GROUP DECIDES TO OCCUPY THE STUDENT UNION  BUILDING.

>> Assed: I THINK THERE'S A  DISTINCTION WITH REGARD TO ADMINISTRATIVE POLICIES  VERSUS CRIMINAL ACTS.

AND SO A VERY GENERAL  STATEMENT I'D LIKE TO START WITH IS THAT THE FOSTERING  OF THE ENVIRONMENT REALLY IS A RESPONSIBILITY OF THE  UNIVERSITY.

I LOVE WHAT ERNESTO SAID  EARLIER ABOUT WANTING THAT UNIVERSITY TO GO ON THAT  JOURNEY THAT HE SPOKE ABOUT.

BECAUSE IT'S ALWAYS SUPPOSED  TO BE ABOUT THE FACULTY, THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE  STUDENTS AS ONE.

WHEN WE START GOING AT  SEPARATING STUDENTS AWAY FROM FACULTY AND  ADMINISTRATION IS WHEN THE PROBLEMS START.

I FAULT THE UNIVERSITY FOR NOT HAVING HISTORICALLY  BETTER RELATIONSHIPS, UNDERSTANDING STUDENT  ORGANIZATIONS, FOSTERING AN ENVIRONMENT FOR MORE  DIALOGUE, FOR AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE SPEECH.

BUT WITH REGARDS TO SPECIFIC INSTANCES IN TERMS OF THE  DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING AN ENCAMPMENT AND OCCUPYING THE  SUB, THERE MAY BE A DISTINCTION.

AND THAT'S GOING TO BE DRAWN BY THE FACTS.

AND HERE'S ULTIMATELY WHERE IT COMES DOWN TO.

IS WHETHER IN FACT THIS ROSE  TO THE LEVEL OF SOMETHING THAT IS CONTRARY TO THE  POLICIES AND WHETHER THEY WERE ACTING WITHIN THEIR  RIGHTS PEACEFULLY TO PROTEST.

AND ALLOW FOR THE STUDENTS FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

THAT'S GOING TO BE DICTATED BY A CASE BY CASE BASIS,  QUITE FRANKLY.

>> Shaun: WHAT ABOUT THE  GENERAL VIEWS OF THE ACT OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE?

PALOMA AND I, I WAS ALSO THERE WITH PALOMA COVERING  THAT NIGHT AT THE STUDENT UNION BUILDING.

WE WERE THERE WELL INTO THE NEXT MORNING.

THERE WAS A GENERAL CONVERSATION AROUND  EVERYBODY THAT THIS WAS AN ACT OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE.

YOU MAY HAVE TO EXPECT TO GET ARRESTED.

THERE WAS PREPARATION AROUND ALL OF THAT.

WITH ALL THAT STATED AS FACT TOO, IS THERE ANY ELEMENT  REGARDING FREE SPEECH WHEN IT COMES TO CIVIL  DISOBEDIENCE ON CAMPUS?

>> Assed: I THINK THAT IT'S  ALSO CONTEXTUAL.

IN THE SENSE YOU DO HAVE A  RIGHT, UNDERSTANDING THE RESPONSIBILITIES AND THE  CONSEQUENCES IT MAY HAVE.

SEVERAL STUDENTS HAVE  EXPRESSED THE IDEA THAT EVEN IF WE ARE ARRESTED, IT'S  NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA HAVE  BEEN GOING THROUGH AND THE DEATHS AND THE GENOCIDE THAT  IS OCCURRING.

SO THERE IS A SENSE OF  CONSEQUENCE THAT HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED BY STUDENTS.

BUT I ALSO THINK THERE IS OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE  UNIVERSITY TO FOSTER SOME DE-ESCALATION ON THEIR PART.

THERE'S A RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT WE DON'T GO AND  CALL IN STATE POLICE AND HAVE A FORCEFUL UPROOTING OF  STUDENTS THAT OCCUPY THE STUDENT UNION BUILDING.

I REALLY DO FEEL THAT WAS OVER THE TOP WITH REGARD TO  THE REACTIONS BY THE UNIVERSITY.

AND THIS IS, AGAIN, AN ACADEMIC SETTING TO WHERE  FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS PRIMARILY WHAT UNIVERSITIES  MUST FOSTER, AND ARE KNOWN TO FOSTER.

THIS IS AN EXCHANGE OF AN ACADEMIC ENVIRONMENT WHERE  CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE IS PART OF CONVERSATION THAT OCCURS.

AND THIS WORLD HAS MANY ISSUES THAT ARE CONCERNING  TO THIS GENERATION OF STUDENTS.

AND THEY'RE FINDING WAYS TO EXPRESS IT.

SO I THINK WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR  RESPONSIBILITIES, AS LONG AS THERE ISN'T AN OUTRIGHT  IMPEDIMENT TO THE OPERATION OF THE UNIVERSITY, AS LONG  AS THERE ISN'T THIS NOTION OF PHYSICAL THREATS TO OTHER  STUDENTS, THEY ARE TO BE PROTECTED.

AND WE TALK ABOUT THIS NOTION OF PROTECTION,  RIGHT?

HAND AND HAND WITH THE  ABILITY TO HAVE SPEECH BE PROTECTED, AND THREATS TO BE  PROTECTED.

THESE THREATS AND SAFETY OF  OTHERS NEED TO BE PROTECTED TO COUNTER, IF YOU WILL, THE  COUNTER OPINIONS.

BUT PROTECTIONS ARE ALSO  AFFORDED TO PEOPLE THAT WANT TO EXPRESS THEIR POLITICAL  OPINIONS ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD, AS HERE.

I THINK THE UNIVERSITY NEEDS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THOSE  STUDENTS NEED TO BE PROTECTED.

>> Shaun: THANK YOU FOR THAT.

AND ERNESTO, I WANT TO COME BACK TO YOU AND WRAP UP THIS  SEGMENT, HERE.

SOMETHING THAT WAS JUST  STATED HERE, SOMETHING WE HEARD CONSISTENTLY FROM  PEOPLE AT THE CAMP AND INSIDE THE PROTEST IS, YES,  THE SITUATION WE'RE RESPONDING TO IS NOTHING  COMPARED TO THE GENOCIDE THAT PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE  FACING.

AND THE DAILY ATTACKS.

NOW, I'M CURIOUS ABOUT THE IDEA OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE  AND THE TACTIC USED TO MAKE THAT A PRIORITY THAT NIGHT.

BUT IN RECOVERY SINCE THEN, WITH THAT ACTION NOW  DONE, CAN YOU DISCUSS WHAT THAT SHIFTED IN THE MOOD AND  IN TERMS OF HOW DISCUSSIONS FOR TACTICS HAPPEN IN THE  ENCAMPMENT FOR STUFF GOING FORWARD?

BECAUSE I IMAGINE THIS IS NOT GOING TO STOP ANY TIME  SOON.

IT WILL LIKELY GO INTO NEXT  SEMESTER.

NEXT SCHOOL YEAR,  EXCUSE ME.

>> Longa: YEAH, I WILL  ANTICIPATE THE ENCAMPMENT CONTINUE TO WORK TO BRING  PRESSURE ON THE UNIVERSITY TO ADDRESS SOME OF OUR  DEMANDS.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO  REMEMBER AND ALWAYS CENTER WHAT'S HAPPENING IN  PALESTINE.

THERE'S A GENOCIDE UNDERWAY  THAT IS MOBILIZED STUDENTS WHO HAVE DEEP CONCERNS AND  WHO FEEL THAT THEY HAVE A MORAL OBLIGATION TO STAND UP  AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST WHAT'S HAPPENING.

AND SO I ANTICIPATE THAT THE DEMANDS TO DISCLOSE OUR  FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIPS TO ISRAELI COMPANIES AS WELL AS  U.S. COMPANIES THAT ARE SUSTAINING AND PROFITING OFF  OF THE ASSAULT ON GAZA AND THE ILLEGAL OCCUPATION TO  CONTINUE.

DIVESTMENT IS A KEY TACTIC TO EXPRESS OUR MORAL OUTRAGE ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

>> Shaun: THANK YOU.

AHMAD, REAL QUICKLY TO WRAP UP, CAN YOU DISCUSS WHAT  LEGAL ROLE YOU MAY HAVE IN HELPING THE PEOPLE WHO WERE  ARRESTED AT THE SUB?

>> Assed: FULL DISCLOSURE, I  HAVE COMMITTED MYSELF AND MY OFFICE ASSOCIATES TO  REPRESENTING, PRO BONO, ANY OF THE PROTESTERS.

WE HAVE NOT YET CONCRETELY ENTERED AN APPEARANCE ON ANY  OF THEM.

I ANTICIPATE THAT WILL  PROBABLY HAPPEN.

>> Shaun: OKAY.

AND HAVE YOU HAD -- WHAT CONVERSATIONS WILL YOU OFFER  FOR THEM IN TERMS OF REVIEW FOR THE CASE?

WHAT CAN YOU OFFER FOR PEOPLE THAT CONTACT YOU?

>> Assed: WE'LL OFFER THE FULLEST DEFENSE THAT IS  POSSIBLE.

WE'RE FIRMLY IN BELIEF THAT  THERE ISN'T A PALESTINE EXCEPTION TO THE FIRST  AMENDMENT.

AND YOUR RIGHT TO SPEECH,  AND FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

AND WE'LL AFFORD THEM A  VIGOROUS DEFENSE IN THIS REGARD.

I ANTICIPATE ARRAIGNMENTS ARE COMING UP FOR THESE  STUDENTS.

>> Shaun: NEXT WEEK, YEAH.

I HAVE TO INTERRUPT YOU.

THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE  FOR NOW.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK HERE AT  THE TABLE TOWARD THE END OF THE SHOW TO DIG A LITTLE BIT  DEEPER.

>> Jeff: IT SEEMS LIKE IT  SHOULD BE STRAIGHTFORWARD ENOUGH, BUT ONE OF THE MOST  FRAUGHT QUESTIONS IN AMERICAN DISCOURSE AT THE  MINUTE INVOLVES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN  ANTI-SEMITISM AND ANTI- ZIONISM.

GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AT THE STATE AND FEDERAL LEVELS  HAVE COMPLICATED THE MATTER.

AS YOU'LL HEAR IN MY  CONVERSATION WITH SOPHIE LEAH.

SOPHIE IS A MEMBER OF JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE NEW MEXICO,  A RECENT UNM GRADUATE, AND NOW A STAFFER ON CAMPUS.

WE TALKED ABOUT WHY HER ORGANIZATION STANDS WITH THE  PALESTINE SOLIDARITY MOVEMENT, AND WHY ITS MOMENT  IS NOW.

SOPHIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH  FOR JOIN ME THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Leah: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME AND INVITING ME.

>> Jeff: SO HOW DID JEWISH  VOICE FOR PEACE NEW MEXICO BECOME INVOLVED WITH THE  PALESTINE SOLIDARITY MOVEMENT?

AND WHY?

>> Leah: YEAH, SO JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE IS AN ORGANIZATION THAT STANDS IN  SOLIDARITY WITH PALESTINIANS.

AND HAS FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

AS I THINK EVERYBODY KNOWS BY NOW, THIS HAS BEEN AN  ONGOING ISSUE THAT HAS STARTED LONG, LONG BEFORE  OCTOBER 7th.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN ADVOCATES STANDING IN  SOLIDARITY WITH PALESTINE LONG, LONG BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.

AND JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE  IS ONE OF THOSE.

SO WHEN A LOT OF  ORGANIZATIONS REALLY STARTED STEPPING UP TO STOP THE  ONGOING GENOCIDE THAT'S HAPPENING IN PALESTINE,  JEWISH VOICES FOR PEACE WAS ONE OF THOSE.

AND SO IT MADE SENSE THAT ALL OF THESE VALUED ALIGNED  ORGANIZATIONS WOULD FIND EACH OTHER AND SUPPORT EACH  OTHER.

THAT'S HOW JVP BECAME A  PARTNER WITH THE SOLIDARITY CAMPS AND THAT KIND OF THING.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

I THINK YOU ANSWERED MY NEXT QUESTION.

YOU SAID THE WORD GENOCIDE.

I WAS GOING TO ASK WHAT  SPECIFICALLY IN THIS CONTEXT YOUR ORGANIZATION OPPOSES.

SO I'LL ASK THE SECOND PART OF THE QUESTION.

WHAT DOES JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE WANT THE UNIVERSITY OF  NEW MEXICO TO DO?

>> Leah: SO JEWISH VOICE FOR  PEACE IS THERE TO SUPPORT WHAT THE STUDENTS WANT.

AND REALLY STAND WITH THE STUDENTS.

WE RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS A STUDENT-LED MOVEMENT.

AND SO JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE IS NOT LIKE DICTATING.

LIKE HERE'S SOME TALKING POINTS, HERE'S THINGS THAT  YOU'RE PUSHING THEIR OWN AGENDA, BUT ARE REALLY BEING  LED BY THE STUDENTS.

WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT THE  STUDENTS ARE ASKING FOR, THEY'RE ASKING FOR  DIVESTMENT, AND THEY'RE ASKING FOR DISCLOSURE OF THE  INVESTMENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY.

AND THERE'S A DIVESTMENT RESOLUTION THAT WAS DRAFTED  THAT IS VERY SIMILAR TO THE ONES THAT WERE CREATED IN  THE '80s THAT STAND AGAINST SOUTH AFRICAN APARTHEID.

AND REALLY WHAT THEY WANT IS TO PULL MONEY BACK FROM  WEAPONS MANUFACTURING COMPANIES, ESPECIALLY AS  THEY PERTAIN TO THOSE THAT GIVE WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.

AND SO, YEAH, WE REALLY ARE FOLLOWING THE LEAD OF  STUDENTS AND SUPPORTING THEM IN WHATEVER CAPACITIES THEY NEED.

>> Jeff: SO LET'S BACK UP A  LITTLE BIT.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, HOW  HAS UNM LEADERSHIP HANDLED THE PALESTINE SOLIDARITY  MOVEMENT DURING THE PAST FEW YEARS?

AND DID THAT CHANGE AT ALL AFTER THE HAMAS ATTACK ON  ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th?

>> Leah: I DON'T KNOW THAT I  CAN SPEAK TO, LIKE, THE LENGTH OF HOW THE UNIVERSITY  HAS HANDLED IT.

BESIDES THE STATEMENTS THEY  HAVE PUT OUT, WHEN IT COMES TO THE SOLIDARITY CAMP,  WHICH IN MANY WAYS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, I KNOW WHAT A  LOT OF STUDENTS ARE REALLY LOOKING FOR IS THAT  CONVERSATION AND THAT DIALOGUE TO HAVE WITH  ADMINISTRATION.

SO THAT THEY CAN FEEL HEARD  AND THEY CAN FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE A VOICE ON CAMPUS,  WHICH THEY DON'T FEEL THEY HAVE.

YEAH.

>> Jeff: SOPHIE, DO YOU  THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THE UNIVERSITY, AT LEAST  SINCE YOU REALLY HAVE BEEN INVOLVED HERE, HAS TAKEN  SORT OF A PASSIVE OR HANDS-OFF APPROACH?

DOES THAT RING THE TUNING FORK FOR YOU?

>> Leah: YEAH, I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO MANY PUBLIC  INSTITUTIONS, INCLUDING THIS UNIVERSITY, THAT THERE'S A  SENSE THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A KIND OF NEUTRALITY.

AND ONE OF THE BIG FRUSTRATIONS IS THAT WHEN IT  COMES TO SOME OF THE REALLY EXTREME IMAGES WE'RE SEEING  THAT ARE COMING OUT OF THE GENOCIDE THAT'S HAPPENING  IN PALESTINE, THAT THERE CANNOT BE A NEUTRAL STANCE.

AND THAT MAKING NO STATEMENT IS ACTUALLY A VERY HEAVY  STATEMENT IN ITSELF.

AND SO THAT'S REALLY WHERE  THE FRUSTRATION IS COMING FROM.

WHERE A NEUTRAL STANCE ISN'T DOING IT FOR A LOT OF THE  STUDENTS.

THEY WANT MORE THAN THAT.

AND ARE DEMANDING THAT.

>> Jeff: SORT OF NEUTRALITY  IN AND OF ITSELF IS AN AFFIRMATIVE CHOICE, RIGHT?

>> Leah: YEAH, YEAH.

IN MANY WAYS. YEAH.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

LET'S DIG A LITTLE BIT DEEPER INTO THIS.

TWO YEARS AGO GOVERNOR LUJAN GRISHAM SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE  ORDER ADOPTING THE INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST  REMEMBRANCE ALLIANCE'S DEFINITION OF ANTI-SEMITISM  FOR THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

THE U.S. HOUSE RECENTLY  PASSED A RESOLUTION DOING THE SAME AT THE FEDERAL  LEVEL.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT DEFINITION, AND DO YOU SEE  ANY POTENTIAL PROBLEMS OR PITFALLS WITH ITS USE THIS  WAY BY GOVERNMENT ENTITIES?

>> Leah: I THINK IT'S  IMPORTANT TO NOTE LIKE THE DEFINITIONS OF ANTI-SEMITISM  WHICH KIND OF CONFLATE ANTI- ZIONISM, AGAIN, ARE LIKE  REALLY A RED HERRING TO THE ISSUE AT HAND.

AND IN MANY WAYS -- NOT ALL JEWS ARE A MONOLITH.

AND CERTAINLY IT DOESN'T SPEAK TO THE JEWS I KNOW WHO  FEEL -- WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED ANTI-SEMITISM.

I'VE CERTAINLY EXPERIENCED ANTI-SEMITISM.

AND REALLY, IT'S SO FAR FROM THE ACTUAL ISSUE AT HAND,  WHICH IS THE GENOCIDE OF PALESTINIANS AND INVESTMENTS  IN WEAPONS MANUFACTURING.

SO REALLY WHEN IT COMES TO  DEFINITIONS AND THAT KIND OF THING, IT'S SO FAR FROM THE  ISSUE THAT IS BEING DISCUSSED AT THE ENCAMPMENT.

THE ENCAMPMENT HAS BECOME SUCH A PLACE OF LEARNING,  ESPECIALLY FOR THE STUDENTS.

THEY'VE HAD TEACH-INS,  CLASSES HAVE BEEN HELD THERE.

THEY'RE LEARNING TO DRAFT LANGUAGE AND THAT KIND OF  THING.

TO ARTICULATE DIVESTMENT AND  THEY'RE LEARNING ABOUT PAST MOVEMENTS.

AND SO THE DISCUSSION OF LIKE IS IT ANTI-SEMITISM  SEEMS SO DETACHED FROM WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

AND REALLY, ALL OF THE DEBATE AND THINGS THAT HAVE  BEEN GOING THROUGH CONGRESS AND THAT KIND OF THING TO  DEFINE ANTI-SEMITISM IN RELATION TO ARE VERY MUCH  SEEMING TO BE A DISTRACTION.

>> Jeff: I APPRECIATE YOU  ANSWERING THAT QUESTION, TOO, IN THAT WAY.

SO YOU GRADUATED FROM UNM IN 2023, AND YOU NOW WORK AT  THE UNIVERSITY.

I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR, FOR  PURPOSES OF THIS CONVERSATION, THAT YOU ARE  SPEAKING AS A MEMBER OF JVP, AND AS A MEMBER OF OUR  CAMPUS COMMUNITY, NOT SPEAKING FOR THE  UNIVERSITY OR THE PARTICULAR DEPARTMENT YOU WORK IN.

BUT I WANT TO ASK, WHAT HAS YOUR EXPERIENCE BEEN LIKE ON  CAMPUS AS A FORMER STUDENT AND NOW AS A STAFFER WHO IS  JEWISH?

>> Leah: YEAH, I FEEL LIKE A  VERY WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT FROM THE OTHER STUDENTS ON  CAMPUS, FROM THE PEOPLE I WORK WITH.

YEAH, I DON'T FEEL ANY ANIMOSITY OR THAT KIND OF  THING.

I THINK THERE IS A SORT OF  NERVOUSNESS THAT PEOPLE APPROACH THIS TOPIC WITH.

BECAUSE THERE IS NO -- THEY DON'T HAVE THE LANGUAGE TO  TAKE INTO THESE CONVERSATIONS.

AND SO THERE IS LIKE A HESITANCY THAT I'M SEEING  FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE ON CAMPUS WHO ARE KIND OF  NERVOUS TO LIKE APPROACH THE ENCAMPMENT,  AND THAT KIND OF THING.

BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW,  LIKE, AM I GOING TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SOMETHING  REALLY WRONG, AM I GOING TO  BE ACCUSED OF ANTI-SEMITISM AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING.

SO, I THINK SOMETIMES THERE IS A WALKING-ON-NEEDLES KIND  OF THING.

BUT THE GENERAL ENERGY THAT  I GET FROM THE STUDENTS IS REALLY WANTING A DISCUSSION.

REALLY WANTING TO BE ENGAGED IN THEIR CAMPUS.

BE ENGAGED IN THE PROCESSES OF THE UNIVERSITY,  AND TO WANT THEIR VOICES REPRESENTED BY THE VOICES OF  THE UNIVERSITY.

>> Jeff: SOPHIE, THIS IS MY  LAST QUESTION, AND I'M NOT GOING TO ASK YOU TO TRY TO  ANSWER IT GLOBALLY.

BUT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF  OUR CAMPUS COMMUNITY HERE AT UNM, WHY IS ALL OF THIS  BLOWING UP THE WAY THAT IT IS NOW?

WHY THIS MOMENT?

>> Leah: I REALLY THINK IT  HAS REACHED SUCH A BREAKING POINT FOR MANY PEOPLE.

WE'VE BEEN IN THIS HEIGHTENED STATE FOR LIKE  SEVEN MONTHS NOW, REALLY.

SINCE LIKE OCTOBER 7th.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH THE PHASES OF GRIEF  OVER AND OVER, I THINK.

WITH ANGER AND SADNESS AND  THIS DEPRESSION.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO SEE THE  IMAGES COMING OUT OF PALESTINE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

AND IT WEARS ON PEOPLE.

AND I THINK WHAT WE'RE  SEEING NOW IS A CULMINATION OF THAT EMOTION AND THAT  FRUSTRATION MANIFESTING ITSELF  WITH YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY INCLINED TOWARD  SOCIAL CHANGE.

WHO ARE REALLY -- HAVE BEEN  HISTORICALLY LIKE THE FORBEARERS OF PROGRESS,  YOUNG PEOPLE ARE AT THE FRONT OF LIKE ALMOST EVERY  HISTORICAL MOVEMENT.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING  NOW IS A CULMINATION OF BEING WORN DOWN BY JUST A  GROWING FRUSTRATION WITH LEADERSHIP.

AND WANTING TO BE A PART OF THAT LEADERSHIP.

WANTING THEIR VOICES HEARD.

>> Jeff: SOPHIE, THANK YOU  SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

I REALLY APPRECIATE THE  CONVERSATION.

>> Leah: YEAH, THANK YOU,  AGAIN SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: WEEKS BEFORE COPS  IN RIOT GEAR STORMED INTO THE STUDENT UNION, I SPOKE  WITH SARAH SILVA, A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER BASED IN  LAS CRUCES.

SARAH HAS BEEN IN THE  TRENCHES ON COUNTLESS THORNY ISSUES FOR TWO DECADES.

AS WE PREPARED FOR THIS WEEK'S SHOW WE KNEW SILVA'S  EXPERIENCE RALLYING OTHERS FOR POLITICAL AND SYSTEMIC  CHANGE WOULD ADD IMPORTANT CONTEXT.

IT'S AN ELECTION YEAR, AND SARAH'S LINE OF WORK HAS HAD  A BAD RAP IN THE RUN-UP TO AMERICANS HEADING TO THE  POLLS SINCE BARACK OBAMA ARRIVED ON THE SCENE IN  2008.

OUR CONVERSATION BEGINS  THERE.

SARAH SILVA, WELCOME TO NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Silva: HI, THANKS FOR  HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: ABSOLUTELY.

SO WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT COMMUNITY ORGANIZING TODAY,  OF COURSE.

AND THERE'S A LOT TO GET TO.

INCLUDING SOME OF THE WORK THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING IN  THAT SPACE IN SOUTHERN NEW MEXICO, FOR MANY YEARS.

BUT I WANT TO START WITH KIND OF A BASIC DEFINITION.

COMMUNITY ORGANIZER HAS BECOME SOMETHING OF A  CUDGEL.

MANY VIEWERS WILL REMEMBER  JOHN MCCAIN'S CAMPAIGN USING IT AS A WAY TO PAINT BARACK  OBAMA AS SOME KIND OF SUBVERSIVE EVILDOER DURING  THE 2008 ELECTION CYCLE.

WHAT IS A COMMUNITY  ORGANIZER?

>> Silva: THAT'S A GREAT WAY  TO START.

SO COMMUNITY ORGANIZER IS  SOMEONE WHO DEVELOPS AND EQUIPS PEOPLE IN COMMUNITIES  TO ARTICULATE, SEEK, AND NEGOTIATE THEIR GOALS AND  PURPOSES IN PUBLIC LIFE.

SO THAT'S A FANCY WAY OF  SAYING MY JOB AS AN ORGANIZER IS THE ABILITY TO  MOVE PEOPLE TOGETHER CONSISTENTLY TO REPRESENT  THEIR BROADER COMMUNITY NEEDS TO COMPEL PEOPLE IN  POWER.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

>> Jeff: AND WE'LL GET TO SOME OF THE HEAD-IMPACTING  -THE-WALL NATURE OF YOUR WORK IN A BIT.

I REALIZE THIS WORK CAN TEND TO BE ISSUE-SPECIFIC.

AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT SOME IN A MOMENT, AS WELL.

BUT BROADLY SPEAKING, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF COMMUNITY  ORGANIZING?

WHAT DOES IT OR WHAT SHOULD  IT AIM TO ACCOMPLISH?

>> Silva: WELL, WHEN I  STARTED ORGANIZING -- SO I STARTED ORGANIZING IN 2004.

AND I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT MY LIFE GROWING UP WOULD HAVE  BEEN VERY DIFFERENT IF A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER HAD  KNOCKED ON MY FAMILY'S DOOR WHEN I WAS A KID  GROWING UP IN SOUTHERN DONA ANA COUNTY.

AND LIKE PART OF ORGANIZING IS LOOKING AROUND AND SEEING  WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE FACING OUR FAMILIES,  DAY TO DAY, AND WHAT ARE THE WAYS WE CAN MAKE A  DIFFERENCE.

THAT CAN BE LIKE RAISING THE  MINIMUM WAGE, FOR EXAMPLE.

OR GETTING AS LOCAL AS LIKE  GETTING A CROSSWALK INSTALLED TO SLOW DOWN  TRAFFIC DURING SCHOOL HOURS.

IT'S THE THINGS THAT ARE  MOST IMPORTANT TO THE FOLKS THAT ARE ACTUALLY  ORGANIZING.

AND THEN THERE'S THESE  LARGER MOVEMENTS THAT WE CAN SEE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

BUT REALLY, IT'S LIKE ALL ORGANIZING IS LOCAL.

IT'S LIKE LOOK AROUND, WHAT ARE THE ISSUES AND THE  PROBLEMS YOU SEE AND IS THERE A COMMUNITY THAT CAN  HELP COMPEL SOME CHANGE AROUND THOSE THINGS.

>> Jeff: LET'S FINISH WITH THE DEFINITIONAL STUFF,  BRIEFLY, IF WE COULD.

HOW DOES YOUR WORK IN  COMMUNITY ORGANIZING DIFFER FROM, SAY, ACTIVISM OR  ADVOCACY, AS PEOPLE TEND TO UNDERSTAND THOSE TERMS?

>> Silva: YEAH, SO THE DIFFERENCE IS THE ORGANIZING  AND ORGANIZER WE'RE CALLED TO BE STUDENTS OF POWER AND  STUDY POWER DYNAMICS.

AND THAT MEANS THE ADVOCACY  DOESN'T STOP -- THE ADVOCACY MEANS ME GOING ON BEHALF OF  SOMEBODY ELSE AND SAYING GO HELP THOSE PEOPLE OVER  THERE.

THAT'S ADVOCACY.

LIKE I'M SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF SOMEBODY.

AND MOBILIZING IS ALMOST LIKE A ONE-AND-DONE FLASH  MOVEMENT.

AND OFTEN YOU CAN SEE THAT.

AND THAT'S AN ELEMENT OF ORGANIZING.

BUT IT'S NOT THE ONLY THING THAT IS THE WAY THAT WE  EXERCISE POWER.

ORGANIZING IS ABOUT CREATING  DURABLE, LASTING RELATIONSHIPS AND MOVEMENTS  SO THE COMMUNITY CAN REPRESENT ITSELF  IN LIKE THE WAYS IN WHICH POWER DECISIONS MOVE IN  THOSE COMMUNITIES.

ORGANIZING IS CONNECTED TO  DURABLE AND ACCOUNTABLE COMMUNITIES AND  CONSTITUENCIES.

AS AN ORGANIZER I'M GOING,  SAY, TO A BUNCH OF CONGREGATIONS OR SCHOOLS OR  NEIGHBORHOODS, AND I'M GETTING TO KNOW PEOPLE AND  THEIR ISSUES AND WHAT THEY'RE STRUGGLING WITH.

AND I'M NOT LIKE, OKAY, LET ME GO AND ADVOCATE FOR YOU.

BUT WE SAY WHAT DO WE DO TOGETHER, AND WHAT DO YOU  WANT TO DO ABOUT IT.

AND I'M OFFERING THE TOOLS,  SUPPORT AND PATHWAYS TO HELP PEOPLE ACHIEVE THEIR OWN  GOALS.

AND SOMETIMES THAT CAN TURN  INTO A PROTEST, BUT OFTEN IT CAN TURN INTO LOBBYING AT  THE CITY, STATE, COUNTY, NATIONAL LEVEL.

OR THAT CAN LOOK LIKE BIG, PUBLIC ACTIONS AGAINST A  LANDLORD.

SO IT CAN MANIFEST IN A LOT  OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> Jeff: GOTCHA.

IT'S SORT OF THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LOCALLY-BASED  JOURNALIST AND WHAT WE CALL A PARACHUTE JOURNALIST.

SOMEBODY THAT POPS IN FOR A QUICK SECOND.

>> Silva: EXACTLY.

WE HAVE TO WATCH OUT FOR  THOSE CARPETBAGGERS THAT COME INTO OUR COMMUNITY.

JOURNALISTS OR ORGANIZERS.

>> Jeff: THANK YOU FOR USING  THE C-WORD.

THAT MEANS I DON'T HAVE TO.

SO HOW HAS THIS WORK CHANGED OVER THE 20 YEARS THAT  YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT?

AND WHAT HAVE BEEN SOME OF  THE PRIMARY DRIVERS OF THAT CHANGE?

>> Silva: I'M GOING TO SPEAK -- I'M NOT GOING TO  GET EVERYTHING.

RIGHT, BECAUSE A LOT HAS  HAPPENED IN 20 YEARS.

BUT WHEN I STARTED  ORGANIZING, NO ONE KNEW WHAT AN ORGANIZER WAS.

LIKE I WOULD SAY I'M AN ORGANIZER, AND PEOPLE WOULD  SAY DO YOU GO TO PEOPLE'S HOUSES AND CLEAN THEIR  CLOSETS.

>> Jeff: LIKE YOU'RE A  TRAPPER KEEPER OR SOMETHING?

>> Silva: YEAH.

AND THAT WAS AT THE TIME THAT OBAMA HAD JUST STARTED  HIS CAMPAIGN FOR PRESIDENCY.

HE WAS JUST BEGINNING TO  COME ON THE SCENE.

AND SO NO ONE HAD A  REFERENCE POINT TO ORGANIZERS AND THE REFERENCE  POINT BECAME PRESIDENT OBAMA.

AND THEN IT SNOWBALLED INTO THAT.

SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED SINCE THEN, A LOT OF DIFFERENT  THINGS HAVE SHIFTED.

ONE, I WOULD LOOK AT THE  FINANCIAL CRISIS IN 2008 THAT DROVE SO MANY FAMILIES  INTO LOSING THEIR GENERATIONAL WEALTH, AND  THEIR HOMES.

THAT WAS A HUGE DENT THAT  MANY ORGANIZERS WERE DEALING WITH.

AT THE SAME TIME, LIKE A FEW YEARS BEFORE ACORN WAS  BASICALLY TARGETING FOR REGISTERING MILLIONS OF LOW  INCOME AND BROWN AND BLACK PEOPLE TO VOTE.

AND THROUGH A COUPLE OF THEIR OWN BAD DECISIONS BUT  ALSO THROUGH TARGETING, THAT ORGANIZATION CEASED TO  EXIST AS WE KNEW IT.

BECAUSE THEY WERE EXERCISING POWER THAT WAS SCARING THE  STATUS QUO.

SO WE'VE SEEN THAT OVER AND  IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY WHERE PEOPLE'S  CAPITAL AND SELF-INTERESTS GET THREATENED AND THE  ORGANIZERS GET TARGETED FOR THAT.

I THINK WE'VE ALSO SEEN ALL THE WORK ON THE PALESTINIAN  MOVEMENT AND WORKING ON FREE PALESTINE AND GAZA AND  CALLING FOR A CEASE FIRE.

WE'VE SEEN A NUMBER OF  PEOPLE COMING OUT AND ORGANIZING AROUND THAT.

CONSISTENTLY AND REPEATEDLY.

AND THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED  BEFORE.

NOT IN THE U.S.

SO I THINK THAT IS BEGINNING TO SHIFT.

AND THAT'S JUST MORE RECENT.

AND THEN THE PANDEMIC, I  THINK THE PANDEMIC HAS ALSO CREATED A LOT OF CONDITIONS  FOR HOW PEOPLE ORGANIZE.

AND I COULD KEEP GOING.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOW THE DIFFERENCES OF ORGANIZING  HAVE SHIFTED AS WE'RE TALKING, TOO.

BECAUSE THERE'S JUST SO MANY WAYS TO LOOK AT HOW  ORGANIZING AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE -- LIKE ORGANIZERS ON  THE GROUND ARE CHANGING THE WAY WE LOOK AT POLICING, AT  ABOLITION.

ALL OF THESE  THINGS ARE CONVERGING IN SEVERAL COMMUNITIES ACROSS  THE COUNTRY SIMULTANEOUSLY.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO TALK JUST  BRIEFLY TO FOLLOW UP THERE ABOUT WHAT I OFTEN REFER TO  AS THE DEMOCRATIZATION OF INFORMATION.

RIGHT, LIKE I GREW UP IN THE NEWSPAPER TRADITION WHERE  WHAT WE DID WAS SENT A BUNCH OF PEOPLE OUT TO GATHER AS  MUCH NEWS AS WE COULD IN A GIVEN DAY, WE PUT THAT ALL  ON A BUNCH OF DEAD TREES AND THREW IT IN OUR DRIVEWAY IN  THE MORNING.

AND THE INTERNET CAME ALONG  AND SAID, NO, NO, NO, NO.

WE'RE GOING TO FLATTEN THIS.

SO I WONDER HOW DIGITAL PLATFORMS AND SOCIAL MEDIA,  IN PARTICULAR, HAVE CHANGED THE WORK THAT YOU DO AND THE  WAY THAT PEOPLE PERCEIVE THAT WORK?

>> Silva: YEAH, DIGITAL ORGANIZING HAS BECOME A  REALLY HUGE TOOL AND WAY TO GET ORGANIZING OUT INTO THE  COMMUNITIES RELATIVELY QUICKLY.

AND LIKE REALLY BROADLY.

AND IT'S NOT A SUBSTITUTE  FOR GETTING ON THE GROUND AND BUILDING REAL,  SUSTAINABLE RELATIONSHIPS.

SO I THINK ONE THING THAT  HAS SHAFTED IS DIGITAL ORGANIZING IS ENOUGH OR JUST  GIVING PEOPLE INFORMATION WILL THEN CREATE A DIFFERENT  OUTCOME.

OR PEOPLE WILL THEN MAKE A  DIFFERENT, OR RIGHT CHOICE, IF WE JUST GIVE PEOPLE  INFORMATION.

THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY THE  CASE.

SO THAT'S LIKE ONE WAY THAT  I THINK THE INTERNET AND ONLINE INFORMATION HAS  SHIFTED ORGANIZING.

AND THE OTHER IS WE CAN  ACTUALLY GET OUR STORIES OUT AND NOT WAIT ON A LOCAL  NEWSPAPER TO FIND A HOOK FOR OUR ISSUE.

THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY JUST CREATE A PLATFORM OURSELVES.

AND PUT OUR STORIES OUT THERE AND PUT OUR DEMANDS  OUT THERE.

AND IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

SO I WOULD SAY DIGITAL ORGANIZING CAN LOOK A LOT  LIKE ASTROTURF.

IT LOOKS LIKE OH, IT LOOKS  LIKE PEOPLE HAVE A LOT OF POWER OR PEOPLE BEHIND THEM,  WHEN IT'S ACTUALLY VERY THIN ENGAGEMENT.

AND THAT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE FOR ACTUAL MATERIAL CHANGE IN COMMUNITY.

>> Jeff: THANKS AGAIN TO SARAH.

YOU CAN CATCH THE SECOND  HALF OF THAT DISCUSSION NEXT WEEK WHEN WE GET INTO THE  CHALLENGES COMMUNITY ORGANIZING HAS FACED OVER  THE LAST 20 YEARS.

NOW, LET'S GET BACK TO THE  CAMPUS PROTEST MOVEMENT WITH SHAUN AND HIS GUESTS AT THE  ROUNDTABLE.

>> Shaun: ALL RIGHT.

AND THANK YOU ALL, AGAIN, FOR RETURNING FOR ONE LAST  DISCUSSION.

WE LEFT THE TABLE THE LAST  TIME TALKING ABOUT SOME OF WHERE THE LEGAL ISSUE WAS  GOING TO GO IN PROCESS FOR THE PEOPLE ARRESTED AT THE  STUDENT UNION BUILDING.

AHMAD, WE KNOW NEXT WEEK  THERE'S GOING TO BE AN ARRAIGNMENT.

WE KNOW THE UNM POLICE DEPARTMENT ARE THE ONES  INVESTIGATING THIS CASE, WHILE STATE POLICE WERE THE  RIOT POLICE THAT ARRIVED.

THEY WERE ACTING IN  ASSISTANCE WITH THE UNM POLICE.

THE UNM POLICE WILL COMPLETE THEIR INVESTIGATION.

WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

>> Assed: SO AT ARRAIGNMENT  THEY ENTER PLEAS OF NOT GUILTY.

AND THERE'S GOING TO BE OFFICER PROSECUTION.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE PROSECUTED BY OFFICERS.

THE D.A.

's -- >> Shaun: UNM POLICE OFFICERS?

>> Assed:   YES, IT WILL BE UNM POLICE OFFICERS,  POSSIBLY WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF STATE POLICE.

DEPENDENT ON THEIR ROLE HERE, THEY MAY BE WITNESSES,  AS WELL.

SO BOTTOM LINE IS THE  D.A.

's OFFICE ESSENTIALLY WILL NOT  BE PROSECUTING THESE MISDEMEANOR CASES.

AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS A DECISION TO PROCEED FORWARD  WITH PROSECUTIONS WILL BE MADE.

ULTIMATELY, I THINK THAT'S A CALL FOR UNM THROUGH  DICTATING THEIR POSITION TO UNMPD AS TO WHAT THE FUTURE  OF THIS PROSECUTION IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE.

ARE THEY WILLING TO DISMISS THESE CASES?

ARE THEY GOING TO WORK OUT ARRANGEMENTS TO ALLOW FOR  THESE STUDENTS TO PLEAD TO LOWER CHARGES OR MAYBE SOME  FORM OF DISPOSITION THAT WILL NOT BE ON THEIR RECORD?

THESE ARE THINGS THAT WILL COME ABOUT AFTER THE  INVESTIGATION IN THE COURSE OF THE NATURAL LIFELINE OF  THE CASE.

>> Shaun: THANK YOU FOR  HELPING US WHAT WE CAN UNDERSTAND NEXT ON THAT  PROCESS.

I ALWAYS LIKE TO BRING THIS  BACK ABOUT WHY WE WERE HERE.

WHY THE PEOPLE EVEN PUT  THEMSELVES IN THAT POSITION TO BE ARRESTED AND WHY  THEY'RE DOING THIS.

AND IT'S BACK TO DIVESTMENT.

THEY FOUND A WAY TO DO SOMETHING TO IMPACT THE  INTERNATIONAL INCIDENT AND A GENOCIDE ACTIVELY HAPPENING,  TO FIND A LOCAL WAY TO AFFECT THAT CHANGE.

THERE'S HISTORY WITH UNM DIVESTING.

ERNESTO, CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THAT HISTORY IS A LITTLE BIT?

>> Longa: YEAH, INDEED.

THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO COMMITTED TO A FULL  DIVESTMENT FROM APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA IN 1985.

THIS WAS A PROCESS THAT WAS SUPPORTED BY THE UNM  PRESIDENT AT THE TIME, TOM FARER, WHO WAS A HUMAN  RIGHTS ATTORNEY AND SERVED ON THE INTER-AMERICAN  COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS.

HE BASICALLY, YOU KNOW,  PROPOSED A STANDARD THAT MIGHT BE INCORPORATED INTO A  UNIVERSITY INVESTMENT POLICY.

AND WHAT HE SUGGESTED IS FOR THE UNIVERSITY TO ASK  ITSELF, YOU KNOW, DO OUR INVESTMENTS FOSTER  VIOLATIONS OF FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS,  OR VIOLATIONS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AND ALSO  DO OUR INVESTMENTS SUPPORT REGIMES THAT PRACTICE  APARTHEID OR COMMIT GENOCIDE.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE CONSIDERING AND  WEIGHING WHEN WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT INVESTMENT.

I'LL JUST SAY ONE THING ABOUT THIS.

THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE UNIVERSITY HAS BEEN  MESSAGING STUDENTS IN THE ENCAMPMENT THAT THEY DON'T  HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO THE AFFECT DIVESTMENT.

I WANT TO JUST EMPHASIZE HOW SHOCKING THIS IS TO ASSERT.

YOU KNOW, THE BOARD OF REGENTS BY THE NEW MEXICO  CONSTITUTION HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO CONTROL AND  MANAGE THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW  MEXICO.

IF IN FACT THEY DO NOT HAVE  CURRENTLY CONTROL OF UNM'S FINANCES, EVERYONE NEEDS TO  KNOW ABOUT THAT.

THAT IS REALLY QUITE INCREDIBLE.

>> Shaun: I THINK IT'S  IMPORTANT TO NOTE THE BOARD OF REGENTS ARE PICKED BY THE  GOVERNOR'S ADMINISTRATION AND APPROVED IN PART BY THE  LEGISLATURE.

THEY'RE ALSO THERE IN PART  FOR THE TAXPAYERS OF NEW MEXICO.

I THINK THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENT TO  UNDERSTAND.

LIKE THOSE ARE PEOPLE  DIRECTLY THAT SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

IS THAT HOW Y'ALL VIEW IT?

>> Longa: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

ONE THING I WANT TO EMPHASIZE HERE IS THAT THE  DIVESTMENT FROM APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA WAS REALLY A  DEMONSTRATION OF TRUE LEADERSHIP AT THE  UNIVERSITY.

AGAIN, THIS WAS A PROCESS  THAT WAS KIND OF INITIATED BY THE PRESIDENT AT THE  TIME, BUT WITH THE SUPPORT OF A COALITION OF BOTH  STUDENT AND COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS.

THE BLACK STUDENT UNION, THE ASSOCIATED STUDENTS OF  UNM, THE NEW MEXICO RAINBOW COALITION WERE ALL INVOLVED.

ACTUALLY, THE GOVERNOR OF NEW MEXICO AT THE TIME,  TONEY ANAYA, WAS SUPPORTIVE OF DIVESTMENT AS WELL.

THEY ATTEMPTED TO HAVE THE STATE DIVEST AND FAILED IN  DOING SO.

BUT YOU KNOW, WE NEED THIS  KIND OF LEADERSHIP RIGHT NOW.

WE NEED THIS KIND OF LEADERSHIP TO BE WILLING TO  INVESTIGATE WHAT OUR FINANCIAL RELATIONS ARE TO A  STATE THAT HAS BEEN DECLARED TO BE PRACTICING APARTHEID  BY AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL AND HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH.

AND THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE HAS DETERMINED IS  PLAUSIBLY ENGAGED IN A GENOCIDE.

THIS IS SERIOUS STUFF THAT WE NEED TO, AS A UNIVERSITY  COMMUNITY, COMMIT TO INVESTIGATING THE EXTENT TO  WHICH WE HAVE FINANCIAL CONNECTIONS WITH THESE  CRIMES.

AND TO CONTEMPLATE AND  CONSIDER DIVESTMENT.

>> Shaun: THANK YOU FOR  SHARING THAT.

NOW, PALOMA, I WANT TO GO TO  YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE ATTACHED TO ANOTHER LEVEL OF HISTORY  IN ALL OF THIS.

IN JOURNALISM.

I THINK IT'S FASCINATING TO FIRST UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR  MOTHER WAS A BROADCAST JOURNALIST AND IN FACT HAD  COVERED OCCUPATION OF A UNM STUDENT BUILDING, THIS WAS  IN THE '80s, RIGHT?

YOU HAVE THAT BACKGROUND,  YOUR SISTER IS WITH YOU, SO  NOW THERE'S THREE JOURNALISTS IN YOUR  HOUSEHOLD.

BUT YOU'RE ALSO STUDYING  FINALS.

YOU'RE A STUDENT AT UNM.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO COVER THIS EVERY DAY AND  AS YOU HAVE WHILE YOU HAVE THE OBLIGATIONS OF A  STUDENT, WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO BE  THERE?

>> Chapa: MY SISTER AND I  INTENDED TO GO SHOOT VIDEO AND ELLA WAS GOING TO TAKE  PICTURES.

ELLA IS MY OTHER REPORTER AT  THE DAILY LOBO.

THE TWO OF US WERE GOING TO  TAKE PICTURES BUT WE ENDED UP SPENDING A LOT OF TIME  THERE AND JUST GOT TASKED WITH REPORTING IT, AS WELL.

AND THAT'S HOW WE FELT OBLIGATED BECAUSE WE WERE  THERE FROM THE START.

AND THE THREE OF US WANTED  TO STAY THERE INTO THE NIGHT AS WELL.

AND COME BACK EVERY DAY.

>> Shaun: DO YOU HAVE ANY  EXPERIENCE COVERING PROTESTS OR INTERACTING WITH POLICE  IN THE WAY YOU HAVE OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS?

>> Chapa: NO.

THIS IS ALL A NEW  EXPERIENCE.

>> Shaun: WHAT ARE YOU AT  THE LOBO DOING TOGETHER, AND MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING YOUR  MOM IS OFFERING ADVICE ON.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO SORT  OF NAVIGATE HOW TO COVER THIS WHILE MANAGING THE  EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS THAT COMES FORWARD WITH IT?

AND ALSO BEING A STUDENT.

>> Chapa: AT THE TIME WE'RE  IN TRANSITION OF EDITOR-IN- -CHIEF.

SO THE INCOMING AND OUTGOING EDITOR-IN-CHIEF WERE REALLY  SUPPORTIVE.

LILLY AND MADDIE HAD GOOD  CONVERSATIONS WITH US AND EVEN GAVE US RIOT GEAR IF WE NEEDED IT.

AND THEY WERE REALLY LIKE SUPPORTIVE IN MAKING SURE  OUR MENTAL HEALTH IS THE TOP PRIORITY.

THEY SAID IF YOU DON'T WANT TO COVER THIS, YOU DON'T  HAVE TO.

BUT WE DID IT, AND IT WAS A  GROUP EFFORT.

>> Shaun: YOUR TWIN SISTER  TOOK THIS PHOTO.

RIGHT?

AND THIS IS IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THE CHAOS.

WHEN STATE POLICE ARRIVED.

WHEN YOU SAW HER STEP UP AS  CLOSE AS SHE COULD TO GET TO THAT PLACE, WHAT ARE YOU  THINKING IN YOUR HEAD?

>> Chapa: I WAS SCARED FOR HER.

BECAUSE SHE TOOK THE  PICTURE, BUT SHE ALSO TOOK VIDEO AND SHE HAD THE CAMERA  RIGHT IN THEIR FACES.

I CAME UP TO HER AND I WAS  LIKE, BE MINDFUL OF THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE BATONS, AND  THEY COULD CHARGE AT ANY MOMENT.

BUT SHE GOT RIGHT IN THEIR SHOES IN FRONT OF THE  PROTESTERS.

I WAS JUST LIKE, WOW.

>> Shaun: AND YOU KNOW, YOU WERE ALSO DOING EDITING ON  MULTIMEDIA WORK.

YOU'RE ALSO EDITING PACKAGE  ALL THE VIDEO THAT YOU REVIEW AFTER EVERYTHING THAT  HAPPENED AND OCCURRED.

AND WATCHING THAT VIDEO, DID  YOU NOTICE, OR DID YOU EXPERIENCE ANY INSTANCES  WHERE POLICE MIGHT HAVE STOPPED YOU AND PREVENTED  YOU FROM DOING YOUR JOB?

>> Chapa: YES.

I FEEL LIKE WE DID.

I WAS KIND OF SHOUTING TO  LET US RECORD A CERTAIN INSTANCE OF THREE COPS  TACKLING ONE STUDENT.

AND IN THAT MOMENT A COP RAN  TO ME AND KIND OF GRABBED MY ARM AND SAID, OUT THE DOOR.

YOU HEAR HIS VOICE IN THE VIDEO.

HE PULLED ME OUT THE DOOR AND HE DID THE SAME THING  WITH MY SISTER WHILE SHE WAS RECORDING.

HE GRABBED HER BY THE BACKPACK AND JUST PUSHED US  OUT THE DOOR.

AND THEY WERE MAKING LOT OF  PEOPLE GO OUT THE DOOR, BUT THIS IS ALSO RIGHT IN THE  MIDDLE OF US RECORDING A BIG MOMENT.

SO, I MEAN -- >> Shaun: THANKS FOR SHARING  THAT.

AHMAD, THIS IS THE FIRST  TIME YOU'RE HEARING THIS.

I'M CURIOUS WHAT ARE YOUR  THOUGHTS ON THEIR ACCOUNT?

>> Assed: I HAVE TO TELL  YOU, FIRST I'M VERY INSPIRED BY PALOMA AND ELENA.

THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU DO.

>> Shaun: ELLA, EXCUSE ME.

>> Assed: I'M SORRY, PARDON ME.

YES.

SO IT'S A SCARY PROSPECT TO  RELIVE THROUGH THEIR EYES THE FEAR OF BEING A STUDENT  AND HAVING TO FACE EXTRAORDINARY, HEAVY-HANDED  APPROACH BY LAW ENFORCEMENT ON A UNM CAMPUS.

A CAMPUS THAT SHOULD BE FREE FROM THE FORCIBLE SILENCING  OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.

IT IS AN EXTREMELY TOUCHING,  IF YOU WILL, IN SOME RESPECT, NARRATIVE ABOUT THE  VIEW FROM THIS SIDE.

I THINK IT WOULD BE VERY  IMPORTANT FOR UNM, PRESIDENT STOKES, AND THE UNIVERSITY,  FACULTY, ADMINISTRATION TO HEAR OUT THIS PARTICULAR  EXPERIENCE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT CHAOS HAS BEEN BROUGHT  ABOUT AT THE UNIVERSITY.

INSTEAD OF AN APPROACH THAT  INVOLVED DE-ESCALATION AND ALLOWING FOR FREEDOM OF  SPEECH.

PROTECTING IT IN PUTTING IN  MEASURES FOR MORE CONDUCIVE, PRODUCTIVE, POSITIVE AREA OF  SHARING KNOWLEDGE AS ERNESTO TALKED ABOUT HISTORICALLY,  FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN DIVESTMENT OF APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA  WAS IN PLACE.

AND THE ADMINISTRATION WAS  PART OF THE INSPIRATION MOVEMENT IN THAT REGARD.

>> Shaun: HE MENTIONED THE GOVERNOR AT THE TIME OF THE  STATE OF NEW MEXICO WAS INVOLVED.

YEAH, THERE'S HISTORY HERE NOW.

WE'RE GETTING CLOSE TO WRAPPING AFTER THIS  CONVERSATION UP.

CLEARLY, WE'RE GOING TO  CONTINUE ALL OF THIS.

I REALLY ALSO WANT TO  UNDERSTAND SORT OF HOW WE'RE VIEWING THIS AND WHY WE'RE  HERE.

THERE'S ALL KINDS OF MANNERS  OF HORRORS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF  OUR HOMES IN NEW MEXICO.

RIGHT NOW, WHY WITHIN THIS  GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE ALL WORKING WITH IN  DIFFERENT SPACES, THIS GENERATION, WHY ARE WE  CHOOSING THIS ISSUE RIGHT NOW TO TAKE ON THE RISKS OF  FOLLOWING AND COVERING IT?

FIRST, ERNESTO, I WANT TO  ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.

WHY?

>> Longa: WELL, GENOCIDE CONCERNS ALL OF HUMANITY.

REALLY.

YOU KNOW, RAPHAEL LEMKIN,  WHO COINED THE TERM GENOCIDE AND  CAMPAIGNED FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE  GENOCIDE CONVENTION, REFERRED TO GENOCIDE AS THE  CRIME OF ALL CRIMES.

IN DECEMBER, THE  INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE FOUND IT PLAUSIBLE  THAT ISRAEL WAS COMMITTING ACTS IN GAZA THAT VIOLATE  THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION.

FRANCESCA ALBANESE, THE  SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON THE SITUATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN  THE PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES, CONCLUDED THERE ARE  REASONABLE GROUNDS TO BELIEVE THAT THE THRESHOLD  INDICATING ISRAEL'S COMMISSION OF GENOCIDE HAS  BEEN MET.

AND IN A RECENT FEDERAL CASE  REGARDING U.S. COMPLICITY IN ISRAEL'S GENOCIDE, THE U.S.  DISTRICT JUDGE JEFFREY WHITE STATED, QUOTE,  "AS THE ICJ HAS FOUND IT IS PLAUSIBLE THAT  ISRAEL'S CONDUCT IN GAZA AMOUNTS TO GENOCIDE.

IT'S NOW EVERY INDIVIDUAL'S OBLIGATION TO CONFRONT THE  CURRENT SIEGE IN GAZA."

IN OTHER WORDS, ALL OF  HUMANITY INCLUDING NEW MEXICANS HAVE A MORAL  OBLIGATION TO STAND UP AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST GENOCIDE.

AND SPECIFICALLY OUR GOVERNMENT'S COMPLICITY IN  THAT GENOCIDE.

THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS  FUNDED AND FINANCED THIS GENOCIDE THROUGH BILLIONS OF  DOLLARS OF AID, BUT BY PROVIDING DIPLOMATIC COVER  IN THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

FOR A PERIOD OF TIME DEFUNDING RELIEF AGENCIES IN  GAZA.

WE'RE DIRECTLY IMPLICATED AT  THE MOMENT IN THESE CRIMES.

AND IT'S ALL OF OUR  RESPONSIBILITIES TO STAND UP AND TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST  GENOCIDE.

>> Shaun: THANK YOU FOR  SHARING THAT.

PALOMA, YOU ANSWERED THIS A  LITTLE BIT EARLIER.

I'M CURIOUS FROM WHAT YOU'RE  HEARING IN YOUR REPORTING FROM STUDENTS, FROM PEOPLE  AT THE CAMP, WHY ARE PEOPLE TAKING THE RISK TO  PARTICIPATE IN THIS?

>> Chapa: WELL, A  CONVERSATION THAT WE HAD AT THE SUB WAS LIKE EXCHANGING  ARE YOU SCARED TONIGHT, LIKE ARE YOU SCARED OF GETTING  ARRESTED.

A LOT OF PEOPLE TOLD US THIS  IS AN ISSUE THAT IS BIGGER THAN THEMSELVES AT THIS  POINT.

AND THEY'RE WILLING TO RISK  LEGAL REPERCUSSIONS.

THEY SAID, I MEAN, KIDS ARE  BEING BOMBED IN GAZA AND I'LL FACE ECONOMIC AND LEGAL  REPERCUSSIONS.

I CAN FIX THAT.

THIS IS A BIGGER ISSUE.

SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE WILLING  TO BE OUT HERE AND THAT'S WHAT A LOT OF STUDENTS TOLD  US THAT NIGHT WHEN WE TALKED TO THEM.

AND ELLA ASKED THEM THAT QUESTION.

LIKE WHY ARE HERE YOU WILLING TO RISK?

ESPECIALLY AT THIS HOUR.

IT'S A SCARY ENVIRONMENT,  BUT THAT WAS AN ANSWER FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE.

>> Shaun: OKAY, AHMAD WE'VE GOT 90 SECONDS.

FROM YOUR VIEWPOINT AS A CITIZEN OF NEW MEXICO, AS A  TAXPAYER, NOT FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE.

I'M CURIOUS WHY YOU'RE PAYING ATTENTION TO  THIS?

>> Assed: I WANT TO COMMENT ON THE GENERATION THAT ARE INSPIRING.

I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA HAS A LOT TO DO WITH SHOWCASING  ATROCITIES AROUND THE WORLD.

WHERE WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT IN  OUR GENERATION.

WE HAD A NARRATIVE THAT WAS  DICTATED BY THE MEDIA THAT WAS ESSENTIALLY HAD ONE  PARTICULAR NARRATIVE.

AND NOW THIS GENERATION IS  SEEING THE ATROCITIES FIRSTHAND.

THEY KNOW THE POLITICAL NARRATIVE.

THEY'RE SMARTER THAN THOSE THAT ARE ESPOUSING HATE.

THEY ARE TRULY AFTER JUSTICE FOR ALL PEOPLE.

WHETHER THAT HAPPENS TO BE IN GAZA, OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN  THE WORLD.

AND I THINK AS A NEW  MEXICAN, ESPECIALLY, WE'RE A STATE THAT HAS A VERY WARM  AND INSPIRING COMMUNITY.

FROM THE NATIVE-AMERICAN  COMMUNITIES, THE HISPANIC COMMUNITIES.

THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE ALWAYS SOUGHT JUSTICE AND  MAY HAVE FACED INJUSTICE IN THEIR OWN WAY, HISTORICALLY,  WANT TO COME TO THE TABLE AND FIGHT FOR JUSTICE  EVERYWHERE.

I APPLAUD THIS GENERATION.

THEY HAVE PUT PALESTINE BACK ON THE MAP.

AND THEY ARE SPEAKING THE TRUTH BECAUSE THEY SEE IT.

BECAUSE SOCIAL MEDIA HAS ALLOWED FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.

>> Shaun: I REALLY DO APPRECIATE ALL THE  CONVERSATION THAT WE HAVE HERE.

AND WHILE WE HAVE TO STOP HERE, WE KNOW THIS IS GOING  TO BE ONGOING.

WE'RE GOING TO BE FOLLOWING  THIS AS IT DEVELOPS INTERNATIONALLY WITH HOW THE  UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL -- AND WHEN AND IF THEY STOP  THEIR CEASE FIRE.

BUT THE SAME TIME WE'RE  GOING TO BE TRACKING ALL THIS LOCALLY.

THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THAT'S GOING TO BE HAPPENING ON  THIS FRONT.

PALOMA IS GOING TO DO A LOT OF WORK ON THAT AND WE'RE  GOING TO SEE WHERE THAT GOES.

IT WILL BE AN INTERESTING YEAR AS WE TRACK THE REST OF  THIS.

THANK YOU, ALL, FOR THIS.

AND THANK YOU, ALL, FOR WATCHING.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> Assed: THANK YOU.

>> Chapa: THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: WE WANTED TO INCLUDE UNM'S PERSPECTIVE IN THIS WEEK'S SHOW.

WE ASKED TO INTERVIEW PRESIDENT GARNETT STOKES.

THE UNIVERSITY DECLINED TO MAKE HER AVAILABLE.

NEXT, WE SENT A LIST OF EMAILED QUESTIONS TO STOKES  THROUGH HER SPOKESPERSON, CINNAMON BLAIR, WHO IS ALSO  CHAIR OF THE KNME BOARD OF DIRECTORS.

WE ASKED WHY STOKES CHOSE TO CALL STATE POLICE INTO THE  STUDENT UNION BUILDING ON APRIL 30th.

HERE WAS THE RESPONSE.

QUOTE, "GIVEN THE SIZE OF  UNMPD AND ITS LIMITED ABILITY TO MANAGE EVENTS  WITH LARGE CROWDS WHILE STILL  MEETING THE EVERYDAY NEEDS OF THE CAMPUS COMMUNITY,  NMSP HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY CALLED UPON TO SUPPORT OUR  OFFICERS AND MANAGING THE ENFORCEMENT OF OUR POLICIES  AND THE LAW, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS A  REPEATED FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH UNMPD DIRECTIVES."

END QUOTE.

WE ALSO WANTED TO KNOW WHERE  STOKES STANDS ON THE DIVESTMENT RESOLUTION.

IT'S COMPLICATED, CAME THE RESPONSE.

SO STOKES AND OTHER UNIVERSITY LEADERS HAVE BEEN  SPEAKING WITH VARIOUS PEOPLE IN GROUPS ON CAMPUS TO  EXAMINE THE, QUOTE, "POTENTIAL CULTURAL,  GEOPOLITICAL AND FINANCIAL IMPACTS."

END QUOTE,  OF DIVESTMENT SO FAR STOKES SAYS THERE'S  NO CAMPUS-WIDE CONSENSUS.

SO, QUOTE, "ADDITIONAL  ENGAGEMENT IS REQUIRED."

END QUOTE.

LASTLY, WE ASKED WHAT PRINCIPLES AND ADVISORS  STOKES CONSULTS WHEN TRYING TO BALANCE THE FIRST  AMENDMENT WITH THE SAFETY AND ACADEMIC INTERESTS OF  THE WHOLE CAMPUS COMMUNITY.

SHE REFERRED US TO UNM'S  RESPECTFUL CAMPUS POLICY, WHICH THE UNIVERSITY ADOPTED  IN 2011.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.