good evening and welcome to LIFE Ahead here on PBS Fort Wayne, I think you're going to find tonight's show very reasonable in terms of things you might need to know and that's what we try to do here on our show LIFE Ahead.

>> Let's give you information and education that can help you with decisions or events, life events that you have to face and some choices you have to make.

So tonight we're going to be talking about probate and don't think of that as a negative word.

>> We don't look at it like that at all.

But you have an opportunity to call us here with questions and we have some experts in the field first of all on an issue if you don't know her already Heidi.

>> Dear Heidi, so glad you're back.

Heidi is an elder law attorney so she deals with clients and sending them or easing them through probate fairly regularly and this is the guy you have to deal with if you go to probate court.

>> This is Magistrate Houck.

Thank you for coming.

It's always my pleasure, Sandy , to be on the show.

>> And you're right, probate is not a dirty word at all and that's what we want to convince people because I mean I hear people literally groan when you talk about probate.

>> How do I get out of it?

And I Hiroto awful.

>> Well, we're going to give them some reasons why it can be done easily.

>> Yes.

The one of the oldest forms of law there is it's trying and it's true and it works and in L.A.

County we like to think we have a big machine here that just gets the job done.

>> Well, I'm going to ask him again because we've talked about this before.

It's really interesting to me.

>> First of all, what does probate mean?

And secondly, how far back does it go?

>> Yeah, how far back does it go?

I I did some research on this a few years ago in probate is probably the oldest form of law that there is really I mean it are law here in our probate law here in the United States comes from the Magna Carta originally can be traced back to the land to Great Britain and what is probate and what he doesn't know Steve Stevedoring was here.

>> You would give us the act.

Yeah, but it's the administrator basically describes the process of the administration of people's estates after they die.

>> OK, all right.

That's simple enough.

How do you want to add to that?

I think that sums it up OK, well I'm not you know what it is so you can go to work tomorrow and feel like you.

>> Yeah about thirty thirty nine years now I've been doing it really.

Wow unbelievable.

>> Well I think maybe maybe because I watch a lot historical shows and documentaries and whatever but I I love things like the Roman Empire and life during those times so they wouldn't have a magistrate that would only they were long flowing.

>> Yeah.

Magistrate is a title that has gone in and out of history at different and you can you could call me anything you want but the title that we use here in Indiana which is a kind of a subset of the judges is magistrates.

>> We have a system you prefer.

Well I am a magistrate so you court magistrate but people call me judge in the courtroom all the time.

That's fine.

OK, but magistrates have a slightly different role under the law than judges have explained that because I never really knew the difference.

Well it's it's almost identical but judges have administrative responsibilities that magistrates don't.

We were just more pure crank out decision decisions and things like that and the judges have supervisory tasks that they also are engaged in.

>> So oh do you have to do both or no.

Do I have to do both?

>> No, because you're magistrate I'm just a magistrate.

So it's just I just I think that's an important thing.

>> He's a great magistrate.

Well if you need a guardian for probate matters, I tell clients before we go to the court to see magistrate how do not be nervous.

He is kind, empathetic has a sense of humor.

>> Yes, nice things.

He's tall.

You know things are important cases come up.

No, no, no, no.

I think they're after having done the job so long you do kind of get into a rhythm of how this thing works and you also find that people coming to us and a lot of emotional situations.

Oh sure.

Of course for a lot of variety of reasons and it's important to try and put people at ease in the courtroom.

>> A lot of people are really scared.

Oh, I know.

Well, understandably it's like going to the principal's office, you know, and I like to be able to do things to try and I think reasonably good at it.

>> Putting them at ease, Heidi brought up something that you do in addition to helping people get through this solving the estate process, handling guardianships and you know, that's a big thing too, isn't it?

>> Do you have how much time or how many cases a year would you spend doing that?

>> Well, I've probably done I was actually thinking about this earlier today because somebody else was asking me the question.

>> I think in my career I've done about ten thousand oh my gosh and wow.

>> Yeah.

And and guardianships can be older adults or that can over children.

There's a variety of different situations that can lead to the need for that.

But ten thousand guardianships would probably in the neighborhood of thirty five thousand estates Mr really my signature is on so much stuff you could be in so much trouble .

>> I could do that.

I think that when I finally do decide to retire from this kid my my signature is going to live on for a really long time because it's a lot of documents.

>> Do you used an auto pen in effect we do now really are electronic.

>> I don't know what you mean.

>> I'm not sure how that works.

Well, the stuff gets filed online and you just click a button and my signature I just point at the line and my signature goes right on it.

>> It's digitally trend.

That's how most.

>> OK, so you like this originally you'll write your signature.

Yeah they have my real case kind of a thing kind of but it's it's even more advanced than that because I don't cut and paste anything I just hit a button in my signature goes on the line so if you're doing thirty five thousand and I guess that's OK I used I mean just all the time and now it's just click click click you know we're all we're all slaves to our computer screens aren't we doing unbelievable what it is.

>> Well and speaking of even the technology you know well there's many cases of shipping and I don't expect you to remember but I remind you every year when you come that he did a guardianship for my granddaughter and you but it was during covid so you did it online OK?

>> You did it face time.

We did a zoom hearing zoom that was it.

Yeah.

And yeah that those are very interesting times and we we're very proud in Allen County that we were one of the first courts in the entire state that was able to pivot immediately and we lost very few court days when everything had to shut down because we transitioned into that.

Those hearings are really quickly.

We got authority from the Supreme Court to do hearings in that fashion and I didn't particularly like it like you are you're I think the personal touch of having people in the courtroom is really super important that you were able to do state decisions and everything online.

>> We had to you had to keep were you in the courtroom or were you at home?

No, I literally was sitting in the courtroom.

We found that was a really good place to go because nobody was there.

>> So yeah, I have to worry about my court reporter and we would sit twelve feet apart.

>> She would make the record.

Yeah, I would sit in the courtroom and we're the only two people in the courthouse sometimes we remember I remember that time well here on LIFE Ahead and Heidi went to talk about like nobody here kind of thing.

>> We kept doing this show.

>> We never missed a show during that whole period of time but for a long period it was me sitting here and the people running cameras in the control room and the gas would be in their office.

>> Tidy didn't sit with me.

I did one of those shows I was sitting in my office.

>> I did I do recall doing that.

Yeah.

And you know, it's like it it worked it worked better than you would think that it yeah.

>> Yeah.

I felt really lonely sitting out here all by yeah.

I think or TV it translates a little bit better than in the courtroom.

Yeah it's really important for me to be able to judge people to make eye contact in a real way and obviously it's important for me to be able to judge people.

>> That's what I do right.

That's what you do all day.

I really need to have those folks and I just can sense things better.

I think a lot better if they're we're sitting right across from each other.

>> Well, obviously since he's in charge of probate decision, what are some of the most common cases that you have that come before you in court?

>> Well, most of the cases and I think Heidi would agree just they go pretty smoothly the administration of people and states and it's pretty one step after another we just get those things done.

>> The first thing you do want you to describe you hide everything you do is on the outside.

Yeah.

You file to to have a personal representative appointed and that then gives them authority to go to different institutions and figure out what assets the deceased person had and then you report file an inventory that says what there was and work on making sure their bills get paid and their taxes get paid.

It's just a very orderly process to help someone get through someone's passing and that's why I don't think probates a dirty word either.

Right?

It's I mean a lot of people really do need the help of of of someone guiding them through even what do I do with dad's mail?

They don't know what to do and so this process just gives them a place to to centralize everything and get all their questions answered.

>> What's what's difficult for people that come to you and need you to help them settle their estate and and take it to probate?

>> I don't know if I'm using the terminology correctly.

I think people just often are overwhelmed with where to even start.

You know, you've got a whole house full of things to deal with and they have no idea maybe where their assets are and we say go home and find the income tax return.

Let's start with the income tax return because that'll tell us where their bank accounts were and if they had a 401k or an IRA.

>> So it's just helping people know where to get started and it will help that person who's your personal representative if you can't things kind prepared for them maybe leave a book with passwords.

>> Right and account numbers and things that yeah.

>> They're going to need to know.

It's also really good to have the talk to have them want to have the talk you know to explain you talk about that explain to your kids what you know what they what you have and I know my father did that to me and my mom and really here's where the stuff the life insurance policies, things of that nature.

>> So I was familiar with all that stuff when the time came.

>> Well, it's difficult.

I think from what I hear for people especially maybe of your parents era to talk about money and finances because they I don't know there's a mindset it's private and they don't even want to share that with their kids.

>> Well, I would say my dad still was pretty private as far as balances and things like that.

But generally to describe where we have a brokerage account we have here's where that's at and here's the life insurance policy.

Yeah, And things like that and and but actually bite later in his life we were you know, we were helping him a lot with those things and tax returns and things like that.

So we were pretty familiar with him but it helped that we had had that knowledge and it also helps to if if you share with your children I think Heidi would agree that if you share with your children those things, if they are your heirs, if you tend to leave things to them and sometimes you don't that it helps to forestall or keep away any disputes that can take place later because you already know up front and there's no surprises.

>> There's fewer surprises.

Yeah.

Yeah well when we make decisions let's say you're getting ready to update your will or make a will perhaps.

>> What are some of the most important things, Heidi, that people should come to you as an attorney with their documents?

>> You know you need you need to decide who you want to leave things to and is it children?

>> Is it grandchildren?

Do you come from a blended family?

Those types of things.

So you want to be prepared to have that kind of conversation .

You want to know who you're going to name as your personal representative or executor who's going to be in charge of things when you pass away and having a good listing of your assets is also really helpful because a lot of your assets don't even go through probate.

They don't go according to what your will says and people often just don't understand that part of the plane like what would and what would it be like an asset that is jointly title like my husband and I have a joint bank account.

Yeah.

Even if my will leave everything to the children and leaves him out he still gets that because we jointly own something something with a beneficiary on it.

Yeah it goes outside of probate and you know the other thing the thing that you know I'm an estate planning lawyer I think about weird things at night but so many we're thinking about these crazy dream about all these things anyway but so many you know, bankers and investment people or avoid probate, get a transfer on death or put a beneficiary on all of these things and that makes me nervous because you can come to me and do your will .

>> That may just be absolutely meaningless if you've got beneficiaries on all these things and that takes priority takes priority even if it's different than where your will says right.

>> You go buy what you put as your beneficiary on your IRA or whatever you invest and some things legitimately need to have beneficiaries on them but some to try to just put a beneficiary on everything makes me nervous.

So really it kind of does it doesn't leave us any money as a as a pool of money to pay bills the bill, pay the taxes, pay the utilities for the home until it's sold.

>> What do you recommend people do?

I like to leave some amount of money going through probate so that in the estate there is some asset of of cash there.

>> OK, so that there's something there to your checking account or savings account check savings maybe your brokerage account let it go.

OK probate just let the IRAs the annuities, the life insurance put beneficiaries on those things OK but maybe not on everything else because you need that money to pay the bills that are coming in that maybe you weren't even aware of or pay taxes you'd have to write and you know, sometimes people want to peel off money for grandkids.

>> One hundred thousand dollars to grandkids.

>> Forty thousand dollars.

Yeah.

If we don't have enough money running through the estate because it all went with a beneficiary, those things aren't going to get paid, you know.

>> So it's important it's a putting a puzzle together and it's important to really I think work with an attorney to help you make sure it's all really going the way you want it.

>> You know, you said you know ,a lot of people don't even know how to start and I think that's so true.

>> I you know, I've talked with people but all of a sudden their spouse is gone and they haven't been the one that's been paying the bills and taking care of things those were left to the spouse and they just didn't even know where to begin.

>> Yeah, yeah, that's it.

This is the time where they're also trying to plan a funeral and right.

Right.

Oh and in the age of technology you know, if one spouse is technologically good and one doesn't have any idea what's going on and all the bills are coming in email and it I tried in common anymore.

>> Oh no.

And so I really try to encourage people to get both parts of the couple at least understanding what's happening with bills where you find magistrate how do you find is like challenging in Attinger?

>> First of all I think I need to go home tonight and ask my wife what those were paying.

She is she the one who did all that well and that's why they do it.

>> That's why there's one person tends to do that because they're the one that's you know, a adept at doing that.

>> Mm hmm.

One thing that you know is in this process that causes problems is is things that have nothing to do with with the administration.

>> But but when there are children that have not gotten along for whatever reason for long periods of time when it comes time to administer a state or to take care of mom and dad's a state money will cause friction without a doubt.

>> I've heard that.

Yeah, You know sometimes and that's really divide the family.

>> Yeah.

And that's and that's when I get to unfortunately have to see a lot of that.

>> Those are the cases that when you decide them well they well I have to after make sure that things are followed the way they're supposed to under the law but people will challenge certain things and so you know that those are sad situations can be but they usually don't have anything to do with the actual probate.

There's usually a path that's well defined as to what how it's going to happen.

But folks usually though don't if they didn't get along with Sister Sue for forty years that are probably not going to get along during that process they might even be more aggravated.

>> They take issue with things that are just crazy, you know, getting upset over the things in the House which I mean I know are meaningful to people but they're not worth a lot of money usually and it's your spending more money fighting over those fighting over that than item is.

>> Yes.

So I remember one of the first times that you were here when I I know what you're saying.

>> I think Niagara Falls Niagara Falls teacups.

Yes, yes.

Yes.

OK, you tell the story well it's just you know just that those as as Heidi just said I mean Grandma is teacup collection from Niagara Falls or whatever it was I don't know why I like why I said that that night but probably if you sent it on an auction it might go for five bucks or something.

But those are those things with that sort of intrinsic value to people that's a sentimental attachment.

That's the word I'm looking for .

Thank you.

The sentimental value people fight like crazy over those things and I do what happened I don't know if you were here for that show or not but it was one of the first shows that I did with you and I said are some of the things that people we talked about sibling or family you dissension here and I ask you what are some of the things that they fight over the most that you have to decide which one's going to get it?

And you said, well, it's not the house the cottage, the farmland, it's the teacups, Niagara Falls, three cups and there are Solutia gardens to those things.

>> It's not like how do you make the decision?

Well, if if they can't agree, if they can't get them, if they're both entitled to the like let's say you have two heirs and they're both entitled to split estate and they're both fighting over this one particular asset.

Well they either come to an agreement or it goes up for auction and then whoever wants to pay the most money for it can get it.

That's one price so they could get it if they pay them if they want to pay for it, be somebody else.

>> That's OK.

I mean sometimes that that's fair.

That's the way to go about doing it.

>> You said that you prefer to have them in the courtroom so you can see the people what are you looking for Heidi Brown my client is right.

>> I the trouble I don't know you do after you've been in this business as long as I have you do pick up on things and you can tell when people are nervous you can tell when maybe they shouldn't be.

Yeah.

And that that can tell you things it's easy to judge credit easier to judge credibility when you're looking at somebody in person.

>> Yeah.

the process is more formal in the court how I mean during zem I mean the people were at home they're in their pajamas.

>> Well that's the story and yeah that probably did happen more once in my Yeah.

Virtual courtroom it's it's just more formal process.

I think that leads to better judicial process because it is a serious thing and it needs to be taken serious and it can't be treated as somebody sitting on their couch in their living room, you know but we're so lucky to have you and people in that position because it's like you have the authority and you're like up here with those decisions, you know, up here I'm trying to be but I appreciate that it's like you know, if if your parent or grandparent has dementia and it's time to take away the car keys, it's a hard thing for the kids to do that they don't want dad to be mad at them and they often say we'll have the doctor tell them it's time for them to quit or Chris , don't hate doctors are up here too well in those sorts of issues do come up in those guardianship cases where don't really well that's often part of and I think my own personal life experiences are have been helpful in that regard.

Having had elderly parents myself, I've been in this business a long time.

I've seen a lot and I think you can do a better job of when families are facing those sorts of difficult situations.

>> It's not just me banging the hammer and saying here's the here's the decision we try really hard in this process to give people solutions that go beyond just sitting around a line and trying to keep people together and to help them see their way so they leave the courtroom feeling satisfied?

>> Well, hopefully yeah.

That's a goal.

And I always tell and I many times I have lawyers in my office and I say and we see there's a dispute between siblings or whoever and I say OK folks how are we going to save this family?

You what can we do to give them a chance?

So there obviously got a serious dispute here but what can we do to give them a chance to at least walk away with somebody going to win?

Somebody's going to lose and it's probably gonna be a little bit of both for both of them.

>> But that's what I mean like you're up here they can leave saying well, the judge decided ,you know, rather my sister or my brother or cousin it's definitely important for some folks to have their day and for many folks to have their day in court.

Yeah, right.

And I've seen situations where I thought there is no way these people will ever get along again ever they've come into court.

They've had their say, they got through it all and they walk out holding hands.

Yeah.

figuratively maybe not really but but it seemed like they got it off their chest and so there can be that cathartic experience.

>> Is there a chance that could be very valuable had their chance to make their case?

>> Well I hope you enjoyed LIFE Ahead here this evening and so on.

By the way, every Wednesday at seven thirty here in the studio, different topics each week as well Heidi.

>> Thank you.

>> How you always had such a good show for us here and again an elder law attorney so thank you for your expert advice.

>> Yeah.

Magistrate, I'll see you next December one probable good chance of it if I get desperate or maybe you'll all see him before I see him again.

>> Meanwhile, thank you so much for watching tonight and have a good weekend