(gentle music) - [Sueann Ramella] What is your family's immigration story?

I mean, unless you descend from Native Americans, your family immigrated here, but maybe the story is lost.

And just knowing how they got here, that isn't it, right?

Like why did they leave?

What hardships did they face?

In this episode of "Traverse Talks," you'll hear from Carlos Gil, Professor Emeritus at the University of Washington.

He'll talk about digging into his family's past and writing about their immigration story.

His book is called, "We Became Mexican-American,#* How Our Immigrant Family Survived to Pursue the American Dream."

(gentle music) - [Sueann] For me as a first-generation Korean-American, I was particularly taken by how you opened up the difficult relationship your mother had with her daughters as they were growing up in America.

And so can you speak on how the cultural differences impacted their relationships?

- [Carlos Gil] The idea is that my folks coming from back country Mexico, from a traditional back country area, and there is a lot of traditional back country areas around the world.

They have their own moral codes, they have their own ways of giving value to certain behaviors.

And so it's out of that very strong sense of morality that my mom in particular, and my grandmother, instilled in us as we were growing up in Southern California.

And so, that morality code conflicted with Anglo-American behaviors in Southern California.

And so that created a lot of tension, especially for the girls, my sisters and the family.

And so this tension, this discrepancy between an older way of doing things and a newer way of doing things, that created a lot of tension and a lot of moments of abuse, you could really say.

- [Interviewer] Well from a modern day perspective, looking back.

- [Carlos] Yes, trauma.

- [Sueann] Trauma.

- [Carlos] Trauma, trauma.

- [Sueann] Fights, emotional- - [Carlos] Yeah.

- [Sueann] Psychological, yeah.

- [Carlos] And in the field of Chicano literature, Mexican-American literature, I think I'm the only one who has addressed that.

- [Sueann] You know, I was wondering about that because from a conservative, rural background and including my mother's, "You don't talk about these things".

You've given voice to realness of sadness and trauma that most families would shy away from.

- [Carlos] Well, I'll tell you one of the reasons, in fact, the major reason that I included it in the book, because when I began interviewing my sisters, they said, don't you remember this?

And I'm just a boy and boys get away with things.

And then I was a boy who was into books and into libraries, - [Sueann] So you could escape.

- [Carlos] and I got away from all that.

- [Sueann] Meanwhile, your sisters had to be with their mother all the time.

- [Carlos] They had to be with our mom, support her.

And so I have some very heartfelt heartrending moments in the book with regard to my sisters and if you read about marrying them away.

It's kind of sad.

- [Sueann] Thank you for bringing that up because I was taken aback by, you know, the population of America, what is it like, I got here 327 million people and about 14% are immigrants.

So we have 14% of American people completely experiencing a different day to day existence, where you have old world ideals trying to merge in America and their children are living in between.

And you have experienced living in between.

But even as a boy, there must have been some cultural shock and difficulties for you.

- [Carlos] I think so.

There's so many different ways of reacting to this kind of situation and on a very personal level.

I think that one of the ways that I've reacted to my trying to fit in is that if somebody closes the door on me, I look for some other door.

And so I'm never, almost never shut out.

And there's a lot of people who don't look for the other doors.

And then the other is that we all have bad moments and I've had my bad moments, but I don't think much about them.

They come to me and they go passed me.

A lot of people hold on to their bad moments.

And so I think, I've said to myself many times, how do you explain what you've done and so on?

And I think those are two kind of very key answers to what I've done.

Even in contrast with my own siblings.

- [Sueann] This book of your family history, it inspires me to want to dig into my own family history.

But was it difficult to talk about these things?

You, you mentioned ferreting out stories from your mother because the culture difference.

How did you even bring up the hard things with your mom?

- [Carlos] I think because she realized and that they were very, that we had all gone through very hurtful moments and so, there were a bunch of times in which she, she wouldn't go forward in her explanation.

And so I got information from my siblings on that topic.

And then I came back to her.

- [Sueann] Well, and your mother, I mean, all relationships are complicated and your mother left everything she knew.

She was immersed in a completely different society, raising eight children.

- [Carlos] Exactly.

- [Sueann] So she had pressures and then there's not enough money and... - [Carlos] Tremendous pressures.

And then there was a death of her own mom, our grandma, then the death of my own dad as well, within a short period of time.

And then the closure of our little micro business and then her having to go out to some ugly little factories to make money.

I mean, this is awful.

- [Sueann] That's a lot to shoulder.

- [Carlos] And, and so the larger point is that immigrant families, especially from traditional cultures coming to America, go through a lot.

And that's, those are experiences that mainstream Americans hardly ever.

(calm music) - [Sueann] The title of your book, 'We Became Mexican-American: How Our Immigrant Family Survived to Pursue the American Dream'.

You chose the word survive.

- [Carlos] I did.

Yeah.

- [Sueann] Why?

- [Carlos] Very, very deliberately because I think many of us in our extended family are still chasing the American Dream.

- [Sueann] And what is that?

- [Carlos] That's a very good question.

(laughs) You could, you could describe it materially.

You could describe it socially, psychologically, intellectually.

And so most people describe it materially in terms of money and finance.

I think that's a common definition of the American Dream.

And so if you, if you define it that way, there's members of my family who are still pursuing the American Dream (chuckles) My family is a big family and they've instructed me in many ways, just by observing them, of what it is to come to America and settle down and, and become a, a descendant of immigrant folks.

- [Sueann] So you're leaving behind something incredible for your descendants.

- [Carlos] I hope so.

I hope so.

- [Sueann] I think so.

And so what would you like others to take away from this book?

- [Carlos] I think that for an individual, at one point in your life, when you get to midlife, I think you begin to kind of a question who you are and in asking yourself who you are, you have to inevitably ask where you come from and what got you to where you are.

And so I think that's the, that's the biggest lesson that I can take out of this book.

That for my grandkids or my great grandkids, I have a bunch of great-grandkids, I hope that at one point in their lives they'll come to, you know, to asking, what am I, or what am I doing?

Where do I really want to fit?

What shall I tell my kids about who I am?

I think those are questions that come to you in your 30s, 40s, and by the time you're in your 50s, you want better answers.

And so I think I have a grandson who, who, whose mother's background is Swedish.

And so in some ways he's Swedish-Mexican, Swedish-Mexican-American.

And so when he gets to his 40s, if he's a introspective, and if he thinks about himself in ways that I'd like him to think about himself, he'll come to value what I've written.

- [Sueann] So as a professor, you've had a career teaching people, and I have noticed I follow some people of color on Twitter and more and more people are saying, I'm tired of explaining my people's point of view to the majority Caucasian audience.

We have, they feel they have taken the heavy load in explaining institutional racism and things like this.

So as a teacher and also as a person of color, how do you feel about that?

- [Carlos] My own take on that is that it depends on what your purpose is, I think in the end.

If you're a teacher of any kind, and if you're teaching an area that reflects your background, your cultural background, then you have no choice, but to be someone who explains that in, if your purpose is to make people of diverse backgrounds work well and satisfactorily within a society, then there's no other thing that you can do but explain.

I'm 87 years old.

I've been doing that all my life, all my life.

And even at this point, when I look back and I say, by God, what have I done all my life?

I've tried to explain who Latinos are, where they come from, why they came and how they fit into American society.

And there's no other way for me.

But again, it depends on what your purpose is.

What are you trying to do?

I think that's the, the, the answer to your question.

- [Sueann] Yeah, because I think a lot of, on the social media platforms, they are not professors of Chicano studies.

- [Carlos] Exactly.

- [Sueann] They're just everyday folk, - [Carlos] Exactly.

- [Sueann] who just point out and then they're like, you need to learn this on your own now.

(laughs) - [Carlos] Exactly, yeah right.

So, so if you see yourselves, if you see yourself as a teacher, teach.

- [Sueann] I love it.

(soft music) - [Sueann] So I grew up on the Tacoma side and there's like what we call South Tacoma way, but really the nickname is South Korean way.

And I remember being a little girl and this first Korean groceries were being opened and how excited my mother and her friends were to finally have their food easily available and just the, the vast array of different ingredients.

So you grew up in the San Fernando valley.

Was it easy to get traditional foods for you?

- [Carlos] I grew up in the San Fernando valley and I grew up in a barrio (Mexican music) which can be translated as a sort of a California ghetto, although the word ghetto doesn't really quite fit.

And so in the barrio, we had our own butcher shops, our own pool halls, our own drinking establishments, too many of them, our own churches, all that.

And so it was a little Mexico.

And in fact, it was referred to by people on the outside as a little Mexico in San Fernando.

And so, yeah, and so we were born into that barrio.

And one of the points that I make in my talk is that, so my parents being immigrants are the, I call them the first generation.

So they come into the barrio and in many ways it protects them and allows them to survive and to keep on going.

Well, the second generation, my siblings and I, we couldn't wait to get away from the barrio.

Okay.

And the third generation, far away from the barrio and the fourth generation, doesn't even think about the barrio.

Assimilation has its phases to it and, and different families do different things.

- [Sueann] What are your thoughts on assimilation?

Is it a complete loss of your cultural background?

- [Carlos] Eventually?

I think it's the, I think is the right word.

So we're, we're at our fourth generation.

I have to respect what younger people, how younger people, even in my family, view their own ethnicity because I don't understand it totally.

I understand my view of my own ethnicity, but I don't understand their view of their own ethnicity and I have to respect that right for them to view their ethnicity in their own way.

Okay?

- [Sueann] Interesting.

- [Carlos] Yeah.

And so I know that my, my descendants down the line, they see themselves as being Latinos or Mexican-Americans or something, in their own way and I don't fully comprehend it, but I do know that I have to respect that because only they can define it, their own way, when the moment comes that they want to define it.

- [Sueann] You're giving so much permission to be yourself.

- [Carlos] Exactly.

- [Sueann] This is not what your mother would have done.

- [Carlos] No, they wanted us to be tried and true Mexicans.

- [Sueann] So why let go of that?

- [Carlos] Well, in part, because assimilation is a terribly powerful force and in my view, you can't, you can't overcome it, but it takes generations for it to work itself through.

- [Sueann] Have you ever thought about the ancient people like the Silk Road and whatnot, we've been mixing and changing.

- [Carlos] One of the best examples that I have about assimilation, is that, not going all the way back to the time of the Silk Road, but you're right.

But a very good example for us Latinos, to understand, especially Latinos of a Mexican background is that one of the first major experiences of assimilation, that had an importance to it, was the assimilation that occurred after the Spanish arrived in Mexico.

- [Sueann] Yes.

- [Carlos] And so they arrive and they, to say it very blithely, they merged into Indian society, okay?

- [Sueann] Yeah.

- [Carlos] And so out of that merging comes the Mestizo people, the blended people and the cultural interaction is a new product.

So we've had assimilation going for 500 years.

So here we are in the 21st century, and we're worrying about assimilation into Anglo-American society.

It's just part of a larger pattern that's been going on for a long time.

- [Sueann] We worry too much.

Perhaps?

- [Carlos] I think some of my colleagues, especially my Latino colleagues, worry about that.

Sometimes, 'Hey Carlos, what we gonna do about assimilation?'

You know, 'What we do, gonna do about, white supremacy?'

You know?

And you know, I, I say to myself, gosh, you know, we've been wrestling with these things for, for a long time.

- [Sueann] And, and the Caucasian-Americans are worried about assimilation too.

(laughs) - [Carlos] The reverse.

- [Sueann] I just think everybody just needs to do it because the food gets better.

(chuckles) - [Carlos] That's right.

(laughing) - [ Sueann] Tastier food.

- [Carlos] Right.

Right.

- [Sueann] Oh, thank you, professor.

I could probably ask you more questions, but I know you have to get going.

- [Carlos] Okay.

(quiet music) - [Sueann] Carlos Gil, Professor Emeritus at the University of Washington.

Read his book, 'We Became Mexican American: How Our Immigrant Families Survived to Pursue the American Dream.'

And how about looking into your family's history and writing about it?

Your descendants will thank you.

For Traverse Talks, I'm Sueann Ramella.