>>> WELL, SINCE THE START OF RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE, MOSCOW HAS BEEN FORCIBLY REMOVING CHILDREN FROM ITS NEIGHBOR, IN EFFORTS TO ERASE UKRAINIAN CULTURE AND IDENTITY.

JASON STANLEY IS A PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR AT YALE UNIVERSITY WHO RECENTLY TRAVELED TO UKRAINE TO TEACH AT THE KYIV SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS ON FASCISM, COLONIALISM AND IMPERIALISM.

HE JOINS HARI FROM KYIV TO DISCUSS THE COMPLICATED IDENTIFY OF UKRAINE.

>> BIANNA, THANK YOU.

JASON STANLEY, PROFESSPROFESSOR, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WE'RE TALKING TO YOU, YOU'RE IN KYIV RIGHT NOW, AND FOR THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, YOU'VE BEEN TEACHING A COURSE IN KYIV.

WHY?

>> WELL, I'M AN ANTI-IMPERIALIST AND AN ANTI-FASCIST, AND MY WHOLE LIFE, AMERICA HAS BEEN FIGHTING WARS TO TOPPLE OPPRESSIVE REGIMES AND INSTALL DEMOCRACY.

AND NONE OF THESE WARS HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

HERE, WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT'S NOT AN OPPRESSIVE REGIME, IT'S A DEMOCRACY.

IT'S A HEALTHY DEMOCRACY, PROBABLY HEALTHIER THAN OUR OWN, AND IT'S FACING A VIOLENT FASCIST IMPERIAL REGIME THAT IS ATTACKING IT, SETTING UP CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN THE TERRITORIES IT OCCUPIES, AND SO, I FELT ESPECIALLY, AS A CHILD OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, AN ANTI-FASCIST, THAT I HAD TO BE HERE, AND SUPPORT AND TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GOING THROUGH.

AND THEN SECONDLY, I'M A PHILOSOPHER, AND IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL MOMENT, I DON'T WANT TO DO THEORY WITH OTHER PEOPLE'S SUFFERING, BUT LEARN FROM UKRAINIANS ABOUT WHAT THIS MOMENT IS LIKE, A YOUNG DEMOCRATIC NATION FIGHTING FOR ITS EXISTENCE, WAS AN OPPORTUNITY THAT AS A PHILOSOPHER I COULDN'T MISS.

>> SO, TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE TEACHING, WHY YOU THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT, I GUESS, TO GET THIS SYLLABUS ACROSS?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I'M HERE TO GAIN AN UNDERSTANDING ABOUT UKRAINIAN SELF-UNDERSTANDING, AND THEN I HAD A HYPOTHESIS ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

THE HYPOTHESIS IS THAT RUSSIA IS THE MOST FASCIST, EXPLICITLY FASCIST REGIME SINCE -- SINCE, CERTAINLY IN EUROPE SINCE NAZI GERMANY.

AND THAT UKRAINE HAS BEEN IN A COLONIAL SITUATION, AND SO, I WANTED TO BRING TO UKRAINE DIFFERENT COLONIAL EXPERIENCES, SO, WE LOOKED AT THE EXPERIENCE OF BRITISH IMPERIALISM IN KENYA IN THE 1950s, WHEN THEY EXPERIENCED A BRUTAL SUPPRESSION BY THE BRITISH, YOU KNOW, THEY WERE, IF THEY SPOKE THE LANGUAGE IN SCHOOL, THEY WERE WHIPPED.

THEY WERE FORCED TO CARRY SIGNS SAYING, "I AM DUMB."

AND THE UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE FACES EXTINCTION.

I WANTED TO SEE IF THOSE RESONATED WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF UKRAINIANS, AND THEN I MADE -- I CHOSE THE READING, FOR INSTANCE, THE GREAT KENYAN INTELLECTUAL AND WRITER, WHO TALKS ABOUT THE EXTINCTION OF THE LANGUAGE UNDER THE BRITISH, I CHOSE THE READING TO RESONATE TO SEE IF THESE COLONIALISTS, THESE EXPERIENCES RESONATED WITH UKRAINIANS.

AND I THINK THEY -- THEY REALLY DID.

EVEN THOUGH, YOU KNOW, UKRAINIANS OFTEN SEE THEMSELVES AS EUROPEANS.

>> SO, IS RUSSIA USING ITS NATIONALISM IN A WAY THAT THESE OTHER COLONIZERS DID, INCLUDING NAZI GERMANY?

>> SO, NO TWO COLONIAL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME.

I DO WORRY THAT -- AND ONE OF THE REASONS I'M HERE IS THAT I DO WORRY THAT WE -- UKRAINE FACES A GENOCIDE, CERTAINLY A -- IT'S INARGUABLE THAT THEY FACE A CULTURAL GENOCIDE, BECAUSE IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES, RUSSIA FORBIDS THE UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE, THEY REPLACE THE TEXTBOOKS TO ERASE UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

BUT THERE'S A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT STRUCTURE THAN, SAY, WITH BRITISH COLONIALISM.

THE BRITISH, WHEN THEY OCCUPIED A COUNTRY, THEY DIDN'T THINK THAT THE LANGUAGE IN KENYA WERE ACTUALLY BRITISH.

THEY WANTED TO MAKE THEM BRITISH.

THEY WANTED TO CIVILIZE THEM AND THE LANGUAGE OF COLONIALISM.

THEY WERE SEIZING THEIR TERRITORY AND PUSHING THEM OFF INTO RESERVES, BUT THEY WANTED TO ERASE THEIR IDENTITY, THIS PHRASE, AFRICANS HAVE NO HISTORY, WAS PART OF THE COLONIALIST MIND-SET.

HERE, IT'S SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT.

THE RUSSIAN IDEOLOGY IS THAT UKRAINIANS REALLY HAVE RUSSIANS, AND THEY'VE INVENTED THIS FAKE IDENTITY.

AND THE TALK IDENTITY IS ALL ABOUT BEING ANTI-RUSSIAN.

AND SO, THE REASON I'M WORRIED ABOUT GENOCIDE IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE THIS CONCEPTION THAT -- AS LONG AS THERE'S A UKRAINIAN IDENTIFY, IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO RUSSIA, BECAUSE IT'S THIS ANTI-RUSSIAN IDENTITY.

AND SO, THAT'S VERY MUCH LIKE WHAT HITLER THOUGHT, WHAT THE NAZIS THOUGHT ABOUT JEWS.

THEY WERE THERE ON THE PLANET TO DESTROY ARYANS.

I THINK THE PRETENSE WAS, YOU KNOW, A PRETENSE, AND NOT CORRECT.

>> YEAH.

>> BECAUSE THE BRITISH SEIZED LAND, BUT THERE'S JUST THE GENOCIDAL INTENT HERE.

>> WHEN YOU SAY GENOCIDE, WHAT COMES TO MY MIND IS MAYBE WHAT HAPPENED IN RWANDA, OR WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE NAZIS, AND THOSE IMAGES AREN'T NECESSARILY THE ONES WE'RE SEEING TODAY.

WE'RE SEEING HORRIBLE DEVASTATION, WE'RE SEEING WAR AND SUFFERING, BUT WHEN YOU USE PARALLELS LIKE NAZIISM AND LIKE GENOCIDE, HOW DO THE STUDENTS RESPOND?

AND DO THEY GET IT?

DO THEY PUSH BACK?

>> SO, THERE'S CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

THERE'S ELIMINATION OF IDENTITIES, WITH WHAT WE DID IN AMERICA WITH INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS.

WE DID A PHYSICAL GENOCIDE.

WE SEIZED THEIR LAND, WE KILLED A HUGE PORTION OF THEM, PHYSICALLY, WE PENNED THEM INTO RESERVES, BUT WE ALSO ELIMINATED -- WE TRIED TO DO A MASS EXTERMINATION OF THEIR CULTURE AND IDENTITY.

WHAT YOU HAVE HERE IS CLEARLY THAT.

YOU CLEARLY HAVE CULTURAL GENOCIDE.

YOU CLEARLY HAVE A SYSTEMATIC ATTEMPT TO ERASE UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

AND INCREASINGLY, WE'RE SEEING PHYSICAL GENOCIDE.

LOOK, THE ONE STATISTIC I SAW, KIDNAPPED 19,000 UKRAINIAN CHILDREN AND SENT THEM TO RUSSIA TO BE RAISED BY RUSSIAN FALL I WILLS.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S LIKE THE INDIGENOUS BOARDING SCHOOLS.

WE KNOW THAT INDIGENOUS GENOCIDE IS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT WAS A MODEL FOR HITLER.

IT WAS MANIFEST DESTINY OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO IN THE EAST.

SO, AS A PHILOSOPHER OF LANGUAGE, I CAN TELL YOU, WITHOUT ANY DOUBT AT ALL, THAT THERE'S GENOCIDAL LANGUAGE, THERE'S GENOCIAL VOCAL LAB.

THERE'S A GENOCIDAL IDEOLOGY.

THEY CALL IT FILTRATION, WHERE THEY TORTURE PEOPLE TO SEE IF THEY HAVE UKRAINIAN IDENTITY.

AND THAT'S WHY I THINK YOU CAN'T CEDE ANY TERRITORY, BECAUSE IT IS -- THE RUSSIANS ARE SPEAKING GENOCIDALLY, THE RUSSIANS ARE SETTING UP INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE PARADIGMS OF FASCIST REGIMES AND GENOCIDAL REGIMES.

SO, IT'S NOT LIKE THE MASS UNSTAND SLAUGHTER OF RWANDA.

THEY DON'T HAVE AUSCHWITZ HERE, THAT'S TRUE.

THERE ARE THESE DISTINCTIONS, BUT WE CAN TALK ABOUT CULTURAL GENOCIDE, WE CAN TALK ABOUT KIDNAPPING CHILDREN, A LOT OF -- THERE'S AN OVERLAP WITH OVER GENOCIDES WE RECOGNIZE.

>> SO, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR UKRAINIAN STUDENTS, OR WHOEVER IS IN THIS CLASS, SO TO SPEAK, TO GET THIS HYPOTHESIS TO INTERNALIZE IT, TO THINK ABOUT IT, TO STRUGGLE WITH IT, TO TAKE IT TO THEIR FRIENDS.

WHAT IS KIND OF YOUR CONTRIBUTION HERE BY INJECTING THIS THOUGHT INTO UKRAINE AT THIS TIME?

>> OKAY, I THINK THERE'S AN INTELLECTUAL PURPOSE, A SOLIDARITY PURPOSE.

I THINK UKRAINE FEELS ALONE, AND I WANTED TO SHOW THAT -- SHOW THEM THAT THEY HAVE -- THEY ARE -- THEY'RE OUR ALLIES IN THE SENSE THAT THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS EXPERIENCE.

AND THE SECOND THING WAS STRATEGIC.

I THINK UKRAINIANS, BY CONSTANTLY IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES WITH EUROPE AND WESTERN VALUES, ARE LOSING ALLIES.

THEY'RE LOSING ALLIES WHO ARE VICTIMS OF AMERICAN IMPERIALISM, THEY'RE LOSING ALLIES WHO SUFFERED UNDER EUROPEAN GREAT POWERS AND THE SCRAMBLE FOR AFRICA THAT WAS DECIDED ON IN THE 1884 BERLIN CONFERENCE.

AND SO, THOSE ARE VALUABLE ALLIES.

THE FORMER COLONIZED COUNTRIES IN AFRICA, VICTIMS OF U.S.

IMPERIALISM IN LATIN AMERICA, SHOULD BE ON THE SIDE OF UKRAINE.

AND UKRAINIANS, BY CONSTANTLY AFFILIATING THEMSELVES WITH EUROPE, ARE LOSING THOSE ALLIES.

>> DO THEY SEE THEMSELVES AS COLONIZED?

>> VERY, VERY INTERESTING QUESTION.

SO, THAT WAS REALLY THE EFFORT, BECAUSE I THINK THAT THERE IS RESISTANCE TO THAT.

THERE'S RESISTANCE, BECAUSE THEY DO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES WITH EUROPE.

AND SO, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT EUROPE HAS DONE, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW ENLIGHTENMENT VALUES WERE A PRETENSE, THEY'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE SOVIET UNION BEING A PRETENSE, THAT SOVIET BRUTALITY TO UKRAINIANS, AS WELL AS TO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE, INCLUDING TO RUSSIANS, WAS DONE UNDER A PRETENSE.

AND I'VE BEEN TRYING TO URGE, FOLLOWING, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE ANTI-COLONIAL LITERATURE, TO VOICE, TO SHOW THAT SOMETHING SIMILAR IS TRUE OF EUROPEAN VALUES.

AND THAT'S BEEN HARD.

THAT'S BEEN A TOUGH BATTLE.

IT REMINDS THEM OF MARXIST CRITIQUES OF LIBERAL CONCEPTS, AND IT'S TOXIC IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD TO COMPARE ANYTHING TO MARX, TO ECHO MARX.

BUT I THINK THAT A LOT OF THE PARALLELS RESONATE WITH THEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE THING THAT I HADN'T REALIZED BEFORE I TAUGHT THIS COURSE THAT WOULD RESONATE WITH THEM IS FANONE'S DESCRIPTION OF THE CAPITAL OF THE EMPIRE, AND THE COLONIES.

I HADN'T KNOWN THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST, THE BEST INTELLECTUALS WENT TO MOSCOW AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WROTE IN RUSSIAN, IF YOU WERE AN INTELLECTUAL, YOU WROTE IN RUSSIAN.

MOSCOW WAS LIKE PARIS FOR THE FRENCH COLONIES.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT FANONE TALKS ABOUT IN DETAIL AND STRONGLY RESONATED WITH THEM, THIS SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, UKRAINE WAS, YOU KNOW, A PROVINCE OR A COLONY, AND THE REAL INTELLECTUAL HUB WAS MOSCOW.

SO, I THINK IT'S BEEN TOUGH, BECAUSE NO COLONIAL SUBJECT WANTS TO VIEW THEMSELVES AS COLONIZED, IT'S A FORM OF OPPRESSION, AND, SO -- THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF BARRIERS.

THE EUROPEAN SELF-CONCEPTION, AND FIRST, AND SECONDLY, THE SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, COLONIZED SUBJECTS ARE MADE TO FEEL INTERIOR.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A RELUCTANT TO ACCEPT THAT, BUT THERE WAS ALSO A COMFORT IN SEEING THE OVERLAPS BETWEEN WHAT ALGERIA, WHAT KENYA WENT THROUGH.

>> WHEN THERE IS AN ATTACK ON A NATION, PEOPLE HAVE A TENDENCY TO RALLY AROUND THE FLAG.

WE SAW IT AFTER 9/11 HERE, WE'VE SEEN IT IN SO MANY PLACES, AND I WONDER WHETHER THERE IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT JUST ZELENSKYY'S VISION FOR UKRAINE, BUT THERE ARE PROBABLY LIKELY MORE NATIONALIST VISIONS FOR UKRAINE.

AND IN A WAY, THAT'S WHAT VLADIMIR PUTIN IS CALLING THEM OUT TO BE, RIGHT?

AND I DON'T KNOW HOW YOUR STUDENTS PERCEIVE THAT, AND WHAT THAT CONVERSATION IS INSIDE THE COUNTRY.

>> SO, THAT'S BEEN ONE OF MY MAIN POINTS.

THERE ARE REALLY TWO BATTLES.

ONE IS ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND THE SECOND IS TO AVOID BEING THE COUNTRY, BECOMING THE COUNTRY, THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN FALSELY SAYS UKRAINE IS.

UKRAINE, UNLIKE MOST DEMOCRACIES IN THE WORLD, HAS NO FAR-RIGHT, HAS ALMOST NO FAR-RIGHT REPRESENTATION IN ITS LEGISLATURE.

IT HAS HELD OFF THE KIND OF EXTREMISM THAT YOU FIND UNTIL -- ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, FAR-RIGHT, QUASI-FASCIST EXTREMISM.

YOU EVEN FIND IT IN NEIGHBORS TO THE WEST, LIKE HUNGARY.

BUT THE WORRY IS, YOU KNOW, PUTIN IS SAYING UKRAINIANS ARE REALLY LIKE THE UKRAINIAN NATIONALIST THAT ALLIED WITH THE NAZIS.

THEY ARE LIKE THE PROFOUND ANTI-SEMITE, THAT'S IN UKRAINIAN HISTORY.

AND THE CONCERN IS, COMING OUT OF THIS WAR, PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO WIN ON THE BATTLEFIELD, THE WORLD, I HOPE, WILL PRESENT THAT, AND UKRAINE, THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES WILL, BUT IF, EMERGING FROM THAT, THEY LOSE THE SECOND WAR, THE WAR FOR THEIR IDENTITY, THE WAR FOR THEIR SOUL, AS IT WERE, YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE DEEPLY TRAGIC.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING THROUGHOUT ABOUT HOW TO AVOID REALLY BAT NATIONALISM, AND SO, YOU LEARN A LOT ABOUT YOUR COUNTRY, BUT YOU LEARN THE BAD AND THE GOOD.

AND IF YOU ONLY LEARN THE GOOD PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY, OR EXAGGERATED VERSIONS OF THE GOOD PARTS OF YOUR COUNTRY, YOU RISK FALLING INTO A KIND OF NATIONALISM THAT UNDERGERDS FASCISM.

SO, I'VE BEEN SAYING, LOOK, UKRAINIANS DID HAVE COME POLICE SI IN THE IMPERIALIST EMPIRE THAT IS THE SOVIET UNION.

AND UKRAINIANS -- UKRAINE DID HAVE A HISTORY OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

THERE WAS A VERSION OF UKRAINIAN NATIONALISM THAT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH A NARROW CONCEPTION OF THE PEOPLE,OVER THE NATION, THAT EXCLUDED JEWS AND RESULTED IN GREAT VIOLENCE.

AND SO, IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT CONVERSATION, BECAUSE AT THIS TIME, YOU KNOW, UKRAINIAN NATIONALISM IS REQUIRED, AS FANONE ARGUES, TO FIGHT BACK.

SO, IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO LOOK AT FIGURES IN THE PAST WHO WERE NATIONALISTS, BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, COMMITTED ACTS OF GREAT VIOLENCE AGAINST THE POLES, AGAINST JEWS, AND COMPLETELY DENOUNCED THEM.

BUT I'VE EMPHASIZED THAT -- I'VE TRIED TO EMPHASIZE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO -- YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO AVOID FASCISM, TO AVOID THE KIND OF NATIONALISM THAT UNDERLIES FASCISM, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO EMBRACE THE BAD AND THE GOOD -- THE BAD ASPECTS OF YOUR HISTORY, AS WELL AS THE GOOD ONES.

AND THEN WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HOW TO TREAT NATIONAL MINORITIES.

ESPECIALLY THE PROBLEM OF HOW TO TREAT, YOU KNOW, RUSSIAN SPEAKERS, WHEN THIS IS OVER.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE, YOU KNOW, HOW, WHEN YOU'RE SO ANGRY AT THEM, AND IN GENERAL, LIKE, THE IMPORTANCE OF REPRESENTING PEOPLE -- DIFFERENT MINORITIES.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAS REALLY IMPRESSED MED ABOUT UKRAINE IS, ONE OF THE MOST LOVED FAMILIES, THEY ARE AFGHAN REFUGEES, THEY ARE NOW A HEAD OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

THAT WILL HELP AGAINST THE BAD VERSION OF NATIONALISM.

JUST LIKE IN AMERICA, REPRESENTATION OF MINORITIES, WHILE NOT ENOUGH TO PREVENT WHITE SUPREMACY, IS A NECESSARY CONDITION OF OVERCOMING OUR PAST.

>> SOUNDS A BIT LIKE YOU'RE LEARNING A LOT MORE THAN YOUR STUDENTS ARE.

>> I AM LEARNING A LOT MORE THAN MY STUDENTS, A LOT.

>> JASON STANLEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW FASCISM WORKS" AND A PROFESSOR AT YALE, JOINING US FROM KYIV.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.