>> GARY KOWALSKI WAS BROUGHT UP IN OKLAHOMA AND EDUCATED AT HARVARD AND HARVARD DIVINITY SCHOOL.

HE SERVED CONGREGATIONS IN MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE, AND SEATTLE, WASHINGTON, BEFORE TAKING THE HELM OF THE ICONIC CHURCH STREET CHURCH, THE FIRST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST SOCIETY OF BURLINGTON IN 1989.

AN ARTICULATE THEOLOGIAN, REVERAND KOWALSKI IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF SEVERAL ACCLAIMED BOOKS, INCLUDING "THE SOULS OF ANIMALS," "GOOD BYE," "FRIEND, AND SCIENCE" AND "THE SEARCH FOR GOD."

HIS MOST RECENT WORK EXPLORES THE SPIRITUAL BELIEFS OF AMERICA'S FOUNDING FATHERS.

HE LIVES IN BURL WITH HIS WIFE AND TWO CHILDREN.

GREAT HAVING YOU HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> TELL ME ABOUT GROWING UP IN OKLAHOMA AS A UNITARIAN.

>> OKLAHOMA, TULSA, IS A REACTION COMMUNITY.

IT WAS AN OWE--OWESIS OF A COUNTER CULTURAL INSTITUTION.

I THINK I HAVE CARRIED THAT WITH ME.

>> INDEED.

SO YOU WERE DIFFERENT AND LEFT AT 18.

>> I DID, ALTHOUGH I DIDN'T REALLY FIT IN AT HARVARD COLLEGE, EITHER.

A LITTLE BIT OF A PREPPY INSTITUTION.

I'M NOT SURE IT WAS A BEST PLACE FOR ME.

>> SOMEWHERE IN-BETWEEN.

YOU HUNG IN THERE.

>> AS A YOUNG MAN YOU BATTLED A CONGENITAL KIDNEY DISEASE, THE SAME ONE THAT KILLED YOUR FATHER AS A CHILD.

HOW DOES THAT ILLNESS AFFECT YOUR LIFE?

>> IT THREW ME FOR A LOOP.

MY FATHER DIED WHEN I WAS A YOUNG CHILD FROM DIALYSIS AND OTHER THINGS.

BEFORE I WENT TO COLLEGE I FOUND OUT I HAD THE SAME CONDITION.

I WAS IN THE DIALYSIS IN THE 20s.

I GOT A KIDNEY TRANSPLANT FROM MY MOTHER.

I WOULD HAVE TO SAY IT WAS A PHYSICAL, EMOTIONAL AND SPIRITUAL CRISIS FOR ME, FRAN.

IT IS A LIVE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU FALL TO PIECES AND PUT YOURSELF BACK TOGETHER IN A RIGHT WAY.

>> IT AFFECTED YOU IN ADOPTING TWOCHILDREN.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT WAS AN ISSUE THAT CAME UP.

>> ONE OF THE OUTCOMES OF THE TRANSPLANT, THE ANTI-REJECTION DRUGS, I BECAME INFERTILE.

MY WIFE WE WANT THROUGH THE PHASE OF HAVING CHILDREN.

BY THE TIME MY SON WAS BORN IN KOREA, MY WIFE GOT PREGNANT.

MY DAUGHTER LOOKS LIKE ME.

THE DOCTORS TURNED OUT TO BE WRONG IF THAT CASE.

>> A GREAT THING.

SOON AFTER YOU MOVED TO VERMONT YOU ACCEPTED DISCUSSING QUESTIONS ON GOD ON THE STAGE OF THE FLYNN FEEDER WITH BILL T. JONES.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT WAS MANY THAT PASTORS DID NOT ACCEPT AND PASSED UP.

WHY DID YOU GO FOR THAT?

>> HIS SHOW WAS THE LAST SUPPER AT UNCLE TOM'S CABIN.

WHEREVER HE PRESENTED IT HE INVITED A LOCAL MINISTER TO GET UP ON THE STAGE AND TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE MEANING OF THE BOOK OF JOBE.

I THINK HE WOULD INVITE THE LOCAL BLACK MINISTER BUT THERE WERE NOT MANY BLACK CLERGY IN BURLINGTON.

THAT NIGHT OF THE SHOW WAS THE NIGHT THAT THE UNITED STATES HAD BEGUN ITS FIRST DESERT STORM OPERATION WITH THE BOMBING OF BAGHDAD.

THE PROBLEM ALSO HAPPENED TO BE MARTIN LUTHER KING DAY.

QUITE AN OCCASION TO REFLECT ON THE PRESENCE OF EVIL IN THE WORLD.

>> IT SEEMS YOU TAKE TO THE MOST CHALLENGES OF LIFE AND WHICH IS POSSIBLY WHY YOU TURNED TO THIS CAREER.

>> WELL, I THINK EVERYBODY ASKS THESE QUESTIONS OF WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN?

YOU KNOW WHY DID I GET KIDNEY DISEASE?

WHY ARE THERE PEOPLE LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN?

WHY IS THERE A HOL--HOLOCAUST?

WHY IS THERE A WAR?

WE STRUGGLE WITH THOSE AND AS A HUMAN BEING WE CAN'T AVOID ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS.

>> NEW ENGLANDERS ARE NOT SPEAKING FREELY ABOUT GOD AND RELIGIOUS FAITH OUTSIDE OF THE CHURCH AND POSSIBLY INSIDE THE DOORS THEY D IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THEY SPEAK FREELY AND TALK ABOUT GOD AND GOD AND RELIGION.

IS THERE A DOWN SIDE TO THAT SIDE OF THE RELUCTANCE TO SPEAK ABOUT RELIGION AND GOD THAT SEEMS TO BE PART OF NEW ENGLAND AND THIS IN GENERAL?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE TIMES AND PLACES TO SPEAK OF THE DEVINE AND TIMES WHEN IT'S INAPPROPRIATE.

FOR INSTANCE, I THINK THAT GOD TALK HAS BEEN IN FUSED INTO THE POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS TO AN INORDERNANT AND UNHEALTHY DEGREE.

IT DOESN'T BELONG THERE.

I WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE FAITH OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS.

LIKE GEORGE WASHINGTON WOULD NEVER GET UP ON THE PLATFORM AND ADVERTISE THEIR PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST AS A WAY TO APPEAL TO THE VOTERS.

THEY WOULD NEVER ACCEPT AN INVITATION--AT LEAST I DON'T THINK THEY WOULD--TO GO TO RICK WARREN TO WRITE ABOUT THE POLITICAL CONVICTIONS.

>> YOU WRITE THAT HE DIDN'T USE THE WORD GOD.

>> HE AVOIDED IT THE PUBLIC STATEMENT.

HE USED WORDS AND WITH THE BEING AND HIS WAY AND TIME HE WAS LOOKING FOR RELIGIOUS LANGUAGE THAT I THINK CATHOLICS, PROTESTTANTS AND JEWS.

HE NEVER USED SAVIOR, REDEEMER, LORD, THIS TYPE OF THING.

>> THE FREEDOM OF RELIGION WAS CRITICAL TO THE FOUNDING OF THIS COUNTRY.

>> IT WAS.

THIS WAS NOT INTENDED TO A CHRISTIAN NATION.

IT WAS INTENDED TO BE A COUNTRY THAT WOULD WELCOME AND ACCEPT AND PROVIDE HAVEN FOR PEOPLE OF ALL BELIEFS.

THERE WERE TERRIBLE AND TERRIBLE WARS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE BUTCHERED IN THE NAME OF GOD.

THAT WAS THE BATTLE THE FOUNDING FATHERS TRIED TO GET AWAY FROM.

>> YOU DISCUSSED THE AGE OF REASON AND SCIENCE AND TEMPERED THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AND ATTITUDES.

WHAT HAVE YOU DISCOVERED?

WHAT ARE THE MYTHS OF THE RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS AND WHAT YOU FOUND WAS REALLY THE INTERSECTION OF RELIGIOUS VIEWS AND CREATION OF A NEW NATION?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE WAS A DELIBERATE DISTORTION THAT THE MEN WERE ALL BIBLE-BELIEVING RELIGIOUS CHRISTIAN.

JOHN McCAIN SAID IN THE CAMPAIGN SEASON THAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THIS IS A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY.

THERE'S NO MENTION OF GOD OR RELIGION IN THE CONSTITUTION EXCEPT IN ARTICLE 6 WHERE IT SAYS THERE WON'T BE ANY RELIGIOUS TEST FOR PUBLIC OFFICE.

FOUNDERS WERE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT.

JOHN ADAMS AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION SAID WE WERE NEVER UNDER ANY DEGREE OF THE INSPIRATION OF HEAVEN.

THIS WAS THE FIRST GOVERNMENT PERFORMED ON TRULY NATURAL PRINCIPLES.

THE OLD IDEA, THE OLD IDEA WAS THAT RULERS WERE APPOINTED BY GOD TO REIN OVER THEIR SUBJECTS.

THERE WAS A DEVINE RIGHT OF THE KING AND DOWN FOUNDED MODEL.

THE FATHERS WERE UP TURNED MODEL AND BEGINS "WE THE PEOPLE IN A MORE UNION."

THESE ARE THE VOTERS.

THE LEADERS SHOULD BE ACCOUNTABLE TO THE VOTERS.

THEY SHOULDN'T LISTEN TO GOD AND GOD WILL TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

THEY SHOULD LISTEN TO THE VOTERS.

>> THEY WERE CHURCH-GOING PEOPLE.

>> SOME WERE AND SOME WERE NOT.

JOHN ADAMS WAS IN WORSHIP EVERY SUNDAY.

AS A MINISTER I LIKED.

THAT GEORGE WASHINGTON ATTENDED ON AND OFF HAPPEN HAZARDLY AND OTHERS WENT YEARS AT A TIME WITHOUT DARKENING THE HOUSE OF WORSHIP.

>> DID THIS REFLECT THE MAINSTREAM OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL?

>> IT'S INTERESTING.

IT DOES REFLECT WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE IN THE 18th CENTURY, THE LARGE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS WERE UNCHURCHED.

THEY DID NOT BELONG TO ANY PARTICULAR RELIGIOUS DENOMINATION.

IT WAS ONLY WITH THE EVANGELICAL REVIVALS AND FIRST PART OF 19th CENTRIAND BIRTH OF THE AMERICAN BIBLE SOCIETY AND AMERICAN TRACK SOCIETY THAT CARRIED THE GOSPEL TO THE EDGE OF THE FRONTIER THAT AMERICA BEGAN TO GAIN WHAT IT HAS NOW THE EVANGELICAL CHARACTER.

>> IT SEEMS A LOT OF PEOPLE LEFT BECAUSE OF PERSECUTION FROM EUROPE AND RELIGIOUS.

THEY WERE LEAVING FOR MANY REASONS.

>> THEY WERE LEAVING FOR ECONOMIC AND RELIGIOUS REASONS.

THOMAS PAINE WAS A QUAKER.

YOU WERE A SECOND CLASS STIN, YOU DIDN'T HAVE VOTING RIGHTS OR ATTEND OXFORD.

HIS FATHER WAS EXTREMELY POOR.

HE WAS A CORESET MAKER AND BARELY SCRATCH OUT A LIVING.

HE CAME TO AMERICA AT THE EVE OF THE REVOLUTION IN 1774 AND FOUND A WONDERFUL LAND OF FREEDOM RELIGIOUSLY AND OPPORTUNITY ECONOMICALLY.

>> HE FOUND HIS VOICE?

>> HE DID.

>> POLITICS HAS BEEN PART OF YOUR LIFE.

YOU WERE A DELEGATE FOR McGOVERN.

>> I WAS.

I CAST MY FIRST VOTE FOR HEM IN 1972.

>> HOW DO YOU VIEW RELIGION AND POLITICS AND WHAT DEGREE DO YOU BRING IT INTO YOUR CONGREGATION OR NOT?

>> WELL, CHURCHES HAVE AN OB INDICATION--OBLIGATION TO BE NON-PARTISAN.

I THINK WE HAVE STRUCK A GREAT DEAL IN THIS COUNTRY THAT RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS ARE TAX EXEMPT LIKE OTHER NON-PROFITS BUT IN TURN FOR THAT THEY CAN'T OVERTLY ENDOCTORS POLITICAL CANDIDATES.

SOMETIMES CON GRE--CONGREGATIONS FALL FROM THAT RULE.

IT'S A GOOD DEMARKATION.

YOU SEE SOME GET UP IN THE STRIFE AND LEADS TO STRIFE BETWEEN LIKE THE SUNNI AND SHIITE.

I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD HAVE THOSE PARTIES.

>> WHAT'S THE RELIGIOUS CONTENT IN THE PUBLIC DISCOURSE TODAY?

>> AS I SAID, I THINK IT'S AN UNHEALTHY DEVELOPMENT.

I THINK INTERVIEWERS ASKING THE CANDIDATES ABOUT THEIR PERMANENT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS OFTEN CROSSES A LINE WHEN THEY ARE ASKING POOR MITT ROMNEY TO TALK ABOUT HIS MORMON FAITH.

I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN HIS DAD RAN FOR GOVERNOR IN 1968.

THEY WERE NOT DRILLING HIM ABOUT HIS RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

THEY MAY HAVE BEEN ASKING HIM ABOUT AUTO INDUSTRY OR PLANS TO END THE WAR AT THE TIME.

THEY WERE ASKING HIS SON, TELL US WHAT KIND OF SACRED UNDERWEAR THE MORMON CHURCH REQUIRES YOU TO WEAR.

THAT'S PRIVATE.

THAT'S NOT PUBLIC BUSINESS.

>> MOVING ON FROM POLITICS BECAUSE THEY ARE SO WONDERFUL.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN THOUGHTFUL AND MOVING BOOKS TO URGE HUMANS TO BE MORE RESPECTABLE TO ANIMALS AND FOR THE CREATURES THAT SHARE THE WORLD WITH US.

WHY IS THAT SO DEAR TO YOUR HEART.

>> I KNOW IN RELIGIOUS CONVERSION OR SPIRITUAL TRANSFORMATION.

IN MY EARLY 30s THERE WAS A LOT OF FACTORS.

MY GRANDFATHER, MY FATHER DAD AS A KID, MY GRANDFATHER WAS THE MALE FIGURE IN MY LIFE.

IT AFFECTED ME WHEN HE PASSED ON.

I WAS STRUGGLING WITH THAT.

I HEARD THIS STORY, ACTUALLY ON PUBLIC RADIO.

EVERYBODY KNOWS THE STORY ABOUT COCO AND HER KITTEN.

SHE WAS A GORILLA AND INVOLVED IN AN APE LANGUAGE STUDY, HAD LEARNED ABDOMEN 500 WORDS IN AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE AND ASKED TO A DON'T A KITTEN BECAUSE SHE LIKED THE PICTURE BOOK "PUSS AND BOOTS".

THEY HAD A GREAT RELATIONSHIP.

THE CAT ESCAPED AND WAS KILLED BY A CAR.

THE INTERESTING THINKING THAT STRUCK ME AND KNOCKED ME OFF THE FEET WAS THE CONVERSATION THAT SUPPOSEDLY TOOK PLACE BETWEEN COCO AND ONE OF HER CAREGIVERS.

COCO WAS ASKED WHY DO GORILLAS DIE?

WHICH WAS THE QUESTION THAT I WAS STRUGGLE WITH.

THE QUESTION JOBE WAS STRUGGLING WITH.

WHY DO GORILLAS DIE?

SHE MADE THE SIGN TROUBLE AND OLD.

THEN SHE WAS ASKED WHERE DO GORILLAS GO WHEN THEY DIE?

A PROFOUND QUESTION.

WHERE DO THEY GO?

SHE MADE A SIGN COMFORTABLE, HOLE LIKE THE HOLE IN THE GROUND AND SIGN GOOD-BYE.

FINALLY HOW DO GORILLAS FEEL WHEN THEY DIE ARE THEY HAPPY?

ARE THEY AFRAID?

COCO MADE A SIGN SLEEP.

SOMETHING OPENED IN MY HEART WHEN I HEAR THIS STORY.

HERE I WAS CARRYING A LOOKED OF PERSONAL GRIEF AROUND.

I WAS STRUGGLING WITH THE QUESTIONS AND I WASN'T STRUGGLE ALONE.

EVERYBODY COPES WITH IT.

IT'S PEOPLE.

IT'S A DRAMA THAT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS.

>> SOUL OF ANIMALS, RIGHT?

>> THAT INCLUDES ALL OF LIFE.

SUDDENLY I FELT ALTHOUGH I HAD LOST THE PERSON WHO WAS CLOSEST TO MY FAMILY, I WAS CONNECTED VERY DEEPLY TO THIS MUCH LARGER FAMILY THAT I NEVER REALLY UNDERSTOOD.

THIS DEEP SENSE OF KINSHIP WITH THE BODY OF LIFE.

>> WELL, IN ONE OF THOSE LOVELY BOOKS IN THE BIBLE ACCORDING TO NOAH AND YOUR MOTHER ENCOURAGED YOU TO MOVE BEYOND ANIMALS?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THAT'S RIGHT.

MY FIRST TWO BOOKS WERE VERY SUCCESSFUL AND GOT PICKED UP BY THE BOOK CLUBS.

MY MOTHER WOULD SAY, GARY, THAT'S A GOOD BOOK.

CAN'T YOU WRITE ABOUT ANYTHING BUT ANIMALS?

I WONDERED IF JANE GOODAL HAD THE SAME PROBLEMS.

>> I HEAR YOU ARE WRITING A CHILDREN'S BOOK.

>> I AM, I AM.

>> IT CAME OUT OF SOMETHING YOU HAD WRITTEN FOR THE BIBLE ACCORDING TO NOAH.

WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THIS BOOK IS YOU INVESTIGATE SOME OF THE MOST WELL-KNOWN BIBLE STORIES AND YOU REWRITE THEM.

>> I DO REWRITE THE BIBLE WHICH IS NOT UNHEARD OF.

BEN FRANKLIN REWROTE THE "LORD'S PRAYER" AND THOMAS JEFFERSON REWROTE HIS BIBLE AND COSTING AND PASTING WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS HISTORIC AND TOSSING OUT MIRACLES AND MYTHS.

THE BIBLE HAS BEEN BEEN REWRITTEN BEFORE BUT I HAD TO TAKE MY CRACK AT IT.

THIS IS A PRAYER, AN ALPHABET OF GRATITUDE.

WE GIVE THANKS FOR THE EARTH AND IT'S CREATURES AND ARE GRATEFUL FROM A TO Z FOR ALLIGATORS FOR AP COTS, ACORRESPONDENCE AND APPLE TREES, FOR BLUEBERRIES AND DAISIES AND ELEPHANTS AND FLYING FISH, GROUND HOGS, GLACIERS AND GRASS LANDS, HIP POSE AND HAZEL NUTS AND ICICLES AND JUNIPERS AND JACK RABBITS, LIGHTING BUGS AND MOUNTAINS, MILK WEED AND NORWALLS AND TOKERS AND PASEMMONS AND QUAL HOGS AND QUEEN ANNE'S LAYS, RASPBERRIES AND ROSES AND URCHINS VALLEYS AND WATERFALLS FOR ALL OF THE GREAT AND GOOD EARTH WE ARE NOT ALL ZI KENNY AND ZEBRAS AND THE ALPHABET OF A, B, C. THIS WILL BE A CHILDREN'S BOOK NEXT STRING.

>> YOUR WRITING IS SCHOLARLY AND SOPHISTICATED AND POETIC.

IT'S GREAT TO READ YOUR DEEPER THOUGHTS.

I CAN SEE IT'S A WONDERFUL BOOK.

GOING ON FOR ANOTHER BOOK AND SCIENCE IN THE THE SEARCH FOR GOD.

SOME SERMONS AND MAJOR THEME IS BETWEEN SCIENCE AND RELIGION GOING ON FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

WHERE DOES THE INTERSECTION OF SCIENCE AND DEVINE LIE?

>> WELL, I THINK FOR ME IT INVOLVES A RECOGNITION THAT LIFE, CONSCIOUSNESS, FREEDOM ARE DEEPLY INTERWOVEN INTO THE PHYSICAL STRUCTURES OF THE UNIVERSE.

PHYSICISTS TALK ABOUT TIME AND CON CONTINUUM.

IT WAS ALBERT EINSTEIN'S PROFESSOR THAT CAME UP WITH THAT.

YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

I THINK THERE'S A MIND MATTER CONTINUUM.

IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT MIND IS MATTER OR MATTER MIND.

THEY EXIST TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW, IN THIS UNIVERSE WE LIVE IN, BEFORE THE BIG BANG, BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF IT ALL, THERE WERE THESE EQUATIONS THAT ARE VERY ODDLY TRANSPARENT TO THE HUMAN MIND.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM BUT THE PHYSICISTS DO AND THEY CAN SCRIBBLE THE FORMULAS ON THE BLACKBOARD AND TELL US SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST THREE MINUTES.

IN THE QUEST FOR THE ULTIMATE EQUATIONS FOR THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SO MUCH THE EXPERIMENTAL DATA THAT ARE GUIDING THEM AND WHAT'S HAPPENING OVER AT THE LARGE HEYDRON COLLIDER IN EUROPE.

THAT'S INTERESTING.

REALLY WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR ARE THE EQUATIONS WITH THE SENSE OF BEAUTY OR ELEGANCE, THERE'S THIS IS AS AT THETHETIC SENSE TS GUIDING THEM.

THERE'S BEAUTY WOVEN INTO THE DEEPEST STRUCTURES THEMSELVES.

SOMEHOW OUR MINDS CAN APPRECIATE THAT.

IT SUGGESTS TO ME WE ARE NOT JUST STRANGERS HERE IN THIS WORLD.

WE BELONG HERE AND HAVE GROWN OUT OF IT IN SOME DOPE WAY.

THAT WE ARE PART OF THE MIND THAT CREATED THE WORLD.

>> WELL, SO INSTEAD OF THE KIND OF CONCRETE SCIENTIFIC AGE OF ENLIGHTMENT REASON, THERE'S A CONVERGEYANS GOING ON THAT PHYSICISTS ARE SEEING OR ARE THEY LOOKING FOR THAT AND THEY FIND THAT IN THE MYSTERY?

>> I THINK THERE IS IS A CONVERGIANS THAT'S TAKING PLACE.

NOT EASTERN SEES THAT.

THERE'S BEEN A NUMBER OF BOOKS THAT APPEARED RECENTLY RICHARD DID DAWKIN'S THE "WATCH MAKER."

HE SAID THE GREATEST THING WE CAN EXPERIENCE IS THE MYSTERIOUS UNLESS YOU ARE OPENED TO THE SENSE OF AWE AND WONDER BEFORE THE CREATION ITSELF, YOUR EYES ARE BLIND.

EINSTEIN SAID SCIENCE WITHOUT RELIGION IS BLAINE AND RELIGION WITHOUT SCIENCE IS BLIND.

>> SPEAKING OF EINSTEIN AND TELL-STORY OTHERS, YOU BRING THEM UP BECAUSE IT WAS THOSE THAT CHALLENGED RELIGION.

RELIGION NEEDS TO BE COMFORTABLE IN ROUTINE IN ONE HAND AND YET YOU, IT SEEMS, PROMOTE ALSO KEEPING RELIGION FRESH.

HOW DO YOU KEEP IT-- >> I DON'T THINK RELIGION SHOULD BE TOO COMFORTABLE AND ROUTINE.

I THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH RELIGION THAT'S COMFORTABLE AND ROUTINE.

ALL OF THE GREAT RELIGIOUS FIGURES FROM BUDDHA AND ISIAH TO JESUS HAVE BEEN RELIGIOUS REFORMERS.

THEY CHALLENGED THE CONVENTIONAL RELIGION OF THEIR TIME.

>> THERE'S THE SANCTUARY PIECE THAT YOU AS A MINISTER HAVE GOING TO HAVE TO ALSO PROVIDE.

HOW DO YOU BALANCE THAT IN THERE IN YOUR CONGREGATION?

>> WELL, I THINK MAYBE THE CHALLENGE CAN BE COMFORTING BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, ULTIMATELY DEEP DOWN PEOPLE DON'T WANT THE EASY ANSWERS.

IN THE FINAL AM--ANALYSIS, THE EASY ANSWERS ARE NOT COMFORTING.

GOING BACK TO THE LOSS OF MY DAD.

THE LOSS OF MY DAD.

I WAS IN KINDERGARTEN IF YOU BELIEVE THIS.

MY TEACHER ANNOUNCES, CLASS GATHER AROUND, GARY HAS SOMETHING TO TELL US.

I WAS SPEECHLESS.

WHAT GARY WANTS TO TELL YOU IS THAT GOD NEEDED HIS DADDY IN HEAVEN MORE THAN HE NEEDED HIM HERE ON EARTH.

THAT WAS NOT COMFORTING TO ME EVEN AS A 5-YEAR-OLD.

I KNEW THAT WAS NOT AN ANSWER THAT SPOKE TO THE PAIN THAT I WAS STRUGGLING WITH.

WE NEED ANSWERS THAT WE CAN BELIEVE IN.

ANSWERS THAT ACTUALLY GIVE US FAITH, HOPE AND A SENSE OF MEANING IN OUR LIVES, FRAN.

>> REVEREND, I'M SORRY WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

THANK YOU FOR THE DISCUSSION.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU CAN FIND MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE REVEREND AND HIS BOOKS BY VISITING VPT.ORG.

WE HAVE LINKS THERE.

I'M SECRETARY OF FRAN TODAY, THR JOINING US.

FLUFF FLUFF