COMING UP NEXT ON ARIZONA HORIZON: TODAY MARKS ONE YEAR SINCE THE HAMAS ATTACK ON ISRAEL THAT SPARKED THE CURRENT CRISIS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

WE'LL HEAR FROM THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MCCAIN INSTITUTE... AND, WE'LL HAVE A DEBATE ON PROPOSITION 140, WHICH WOULD ELIMINATE PARTISAN PRIMARIES IN THE STATE.

THOSE STORIES AND MORE NEXT, ON ARIZONA HORIZON.

GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO ARIZONA HORIZON.

I'M TED SIMONS.

TODAY MARKS ONE YEAR SINCE TERRORIST ATTACKS BY HAMAS KILLED 1200 ISRAELIS AND SET OF A CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT ONE YEAR LATER HAS THE MIDDLE EAST ON TH BRINK OF FULL-SCALE WAR.

REMEMBERANCES FOR ISREALI CITIZENS KILLED IN THE OCTOBER 7TH ATTACK TOOK PLACE AROUND THE WORLD AND IN THE U.S., INCLUDING THE NATIONAL MALL IN WASHINGTON.

WE WILL HAVE MUCH MORE ON THE HAMAS ATTACKS ON ISRAEL ONE YEAR LATER, INCLUDING AN INTERVIEW WITH THE DIRECTOR OF THE MCCAIN INSTITUTE IN JUST A MOMENT.

OTHER HEADLINES: EVACUATIONS AR UNDER WAY ALONG THE FLORIDA GUL COAST, INCLUDING THE TAMPA METR REGION, WHICH LOOKS TO BE IN TH DIRECT PATH OF HURRICANE MILTON THIS LATEST HURRICANE QUICKLY GREW TO A CATGAGORY 5 STORM AND NOW RANKS AS THE STRONGEST STORM ON THE PLANET THIS YEAR.

IT'S EXPECTED BE AT CATAGORY 3 BY WEDNESDAY, WHEN IT'S FORECAS TO HIT THE WEST COAST OF FLORIDA.

THAT'S THE SAME PART OF FLORIDA THAT'S STILL RECOVERING FROM HURRICANE HELENE, WHICH HIT 10 DAYS AGO.

HERE'S THE MAYOR OF TAMPA.

>>> HELENE REALLY WOKE EVERYBODY UP.

WE HAD 4 TO 6 FOOT TIDAL SURGE.

I CAN SAY MY ENTIRE TIME 64 YEARS IN TAMPA I'VE NEVER SEEN THE DAMAGE THAT WE SAW WITH HELENE, AND MILTON IS ON A WHOLE OTHER PLATEAU.

OF NOTE: HURRICANE TRACKERS HAV REPORTED SEEING BIRDS INSIDE TH EYE OF THE STORM, WHERE WINDS ARE AROUND 15 MILES PER HOUR, A OPPOSED TO WIND SPEEDS OF 175 MILES PER HOUR OUTSIDE THE WALL AND THE U.S. SURPEME COURT TODA RETURNED FOR A NEW TERM.

THE JUSTICES HAVE SO FAR AGREED TO MAKE DECISIONS ON 40 APPEALS FOR THE SESSION, WHICH RUNS UNTIL NEXT SUMMER.

THE AGENDA INCLUDES CASES ON GUNS, PORNOGRAPHY AND TRANSGENDER MEDICAL CARE.

THIS AS THE HIGH COURT BRACES FOR LAST- MINUTE ELECTION FIGHT AND A NEW PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION THAT COULD DRAG THE COURT DEEPER INTO POLITICS.

AS WE MENTIONED, TODAY MARKS ON YEAR SINCE HAMAS LAUNCHED AN UNPRECEDENTED ATTACK ON ISRAEL.

THE SURRISE ASSAULT INVOLVED EXPLOSIVES, MISSILES AND A GROUND ATTACK, RESULTING IN THOUSANDS OF ISRAELI CITIZENS KILLED AND INJURED ALONG WITH OTHER ATROCITIES.

ISRAEL'S RESPONSE HAS RESULTED IN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIAN DEATHS AND INJURIES IN GAZA, AND AN INCREASING BOMBARDMENT OF HEZBOLLAH POSITIONS IN LEBANON, AS THE WAR THREATENS TO EXPAND ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST.

EARLIER TODAY, WE SPOKE WITH EVELYN FARKAS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MCCAIN INSTITUTE.

>> EVELYN FARKAS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON ARIZONA HORIZON.

IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

HOW DID YOU FIRST HEAR OF THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS, AND WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST THOUGHTS?

>> WELL, FIRST, THANK YOU, TED, FOR HAVING ME HERE.

IT'S AN HONOR.

SECOND, I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT OBVIOUSLY FOR ME IT MUST HAVE BEEN ON TELEVISION, ON CABLE TV.

I'M SOMEWHAT OF A JUNKY AS, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY WHO RUNS THE McCAIN INSTITUTE SHOULD BE, BECAUSE LIKE SENATOR McCAIN, WE ARE ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN EDUCATING AMERICANS AND PUSHING POLICYMAKERS ON POLICY RELATED TO INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS.

SO I SAW IT ON THE TELEVISION, AND FRANKLY, IT WAS SHOCKING, JUST THE FACT THAT THIS ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, WHICH HAS PRIDED ITSELF SO MUCH ON HAVING A MILITARY QUALITATIVE ADVANTAGE AGAINST ALL OF ITS OPPONENTS IN THE REGION, WHETHER THEY'RE TERRORISTS ORGANIZATIONS, WAS ESSENTIALLY TAKEN BY SURPRISE.

AND THE ATTACK ON INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THEIR HOMES WAS ALSO SOMETHING THAT I DON'T THINK ANY OF US REALLY HAD BEEN ABLE TO IMAGINE.

>> DID YOU FORESEE AN ALL-OUT WAR, A?

AND DID YOU FORESEE WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK EVERYONE WATCHING THIS UNDERSTOOD RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING THAT IT COULD BECOME WIDER, BECAUSE LET'S NOT FORGET THAT THE MAIN BAD ACTOR BEHIND ALL OF THIS IS IRAN.

AND IRAN HAS SEVERAL PROXY GROUPS.

SO THE PROXY GROUP WHICH LAUNCHED THE ATTACK OUT OF GAZA IS THE HAMAS GROUP.

BUT RIGHT AWAY HEZBOLLAH, WHICH OPERATES OUT OF LEBANON INTO NORTHERN ISRAEL, WITH ITS MISSILES RIGHT NOW, BASICALLY SAID WE'RE COMING OUT OF SOLIDARITY, WE ARE GOING TO BREAK THE CEASE FIRE THAT THEY HAD, THAT WAS MORE OR LESS HOLDING WITH ISRAEL, AND WE ARE GOING TO ALSO ATTACK ISRAEL WITH MISSILES.

SO RIGHT AWAY YOU COULD SEE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR A WIDENING WAR.

AND THEN A THIRD GROUP IN YEMEN, THAT THE IRANIANS ARE ALSO SUPPORTING, THEY STARTED LAUNCHING ATTACKS AGAINST SHIPPING IN THE RED SEA.

AND NOT FRANKLY JUST ISRAELI SHIPPING.

SO THEY WERE ALSO -- BUT THEY WERE ALSO SAYING THEY WERE DOING IT ON SOLIDARITY.

SO THERE WERE INGREDIENT THERE IS FOR A WIDER WAR THAT RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OUR GOVERNMENT WANTED TO STOP.

>> BUT WITH THAT IN MIND THE PUMP THE ATTACK, I'VE HEARD AND WE'VE HEARD SPECULATION THAT THE PROBLEM WAS IRAN WAS SEEING ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA GETTING A LITTLE TOO FRIENDLY AND WANTED TO DO SOMETHING TO DISRUPT THINGS.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

>> IT DOES MAKE SENSE TO ME, TED.

THE IRANIANS WERE WATCHING A PROCESS THAT BEGAN -- I'M NOT SURE IF IT BEGAN UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA BUT CERTAINLY UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THEN CONTINUED UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, A PROCESS OF CREATING RECONCILIATION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND ITS VARIOUS POWERFUL ARAB ALLIES.

SO WE HAD ALREADY UNDER PRESIDENT CARTER, OF COURSE, CREATED THE CONDITIONS FOR PEACE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND EGYPT AND JORDAN, BUT BEYOND THAT, THE OTHER STATES OF THE REGION WERE HOSTILE.

IRAN WAS SUDDENLY REALIZING IT MIGHT BE, YOU KNOW, FACING A COALITION OF STATES INCLUDING ISRAEL, THE ONLY NUCLEAR STATE AND THE STRONGEST MILITARY STATE IN THE REGION, WITH ITS NUMBER 1 ENEMY IN THE REGION, WHICH IS SAUDI ARABIA.

SO IRAN SAW THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF ITS RIVALRY WITH SAUDI ARABIA AND ALSO ITS DESIRE TO SEE ISRAEL CONTINUE TO BE, YOU KNOW, OFF TO THE SIDE AND ISOLATED DIPLOMATICALLY AND OTHERWISE, THAT IT WAS GOING TO FACE A SITUATION THAT WOULD BE OPPOSITE, THAT ISRAEL WOULD BE INTEGRATED AND NOT ONLY INTEGRATED BUT ACTUALLY WORKING TOGETHER WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

>> AND WITH THAT IN MIND, IF HAMAS WANTED PEACE RIGHT NOW, WOULD IRAN ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN?

I MEAN, ARE THOSE TWO SO SYMBIOTIC THAT THEY'RE ONE OR ARE THINGS STARTING TO SLIP ON THAT SIDE?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT IRAN EVER 100% CONTROLLED EITHER HAMAS OR HEZBOLLAH.

IT'S UNCLEAR WHETHER IRAN KNEW EXACTLY WHEN HAMAS WAS GOING TO LAUNCH THIS OPERATION.

THEY HAD TO HAVE KNOWN ABOUT, IT THOUGH.

AND BY THE WAY, THAT ALSO MAKES ME THINK THAT OTHER POWERS ALLIED WITH IRAN LIKE RUSSIA WOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THIS OPERATION POTENTIALLY.

IN ANY EVENT, I DON'T THINK THAT IRAN CONTROLS, AGAIN, HOW IT ENDS.

SO ONCE IT'S LAUNCHED, NOW THAT WE'RE IN THE SITUATION WE'RE IN, HAMAS SEEMS TO BE CALLING THE SHOTS ABOUT WHETHER IT COMES TO AN END.

BUT FRANKLY IRAN WANTS ISRAEL TO BE FIGHTING HAMAS AND HEZBOLLAH BECAUSE IRAN DOESN'T WANT TO GET INTO DIRECT WAR WITH ISRAEL BUT WANTS TO SEE ISRAEL WEAKENED AND OF COURSE DISTRACTED.

>> HOW DOES THIS END?

I MEAN, ISRAEL SAYS IT WANTS TO DESTROY HAMAS.

IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE THAT'S ENTIRELY POSSIBLE.

IT SEEMS LIKE IT WOULD BUBBLE UP SOMEWHERE, SOME WAY, SOMEHOW, AND OBVIOUSLY WHAT HAMAS WANTS ISRAEL TO DO IS ALL SORTS OF THINGS, BUT ISRAEL SIMPLY ISN'T GOING TO.

HOW IS THIS GOING TO END?

>> HAMAS WANTS TO CONTROL GAZA, HAMAS WAS AN INDEPENDENT PALESTINIAN STATE.

THIS CURRENT GOVERNMENT IS UNFORTUNATELY IN FAVOR OF A ONE-STATE SOLUTION WHICH WOULD MEAN KEEPING THE PALESTINIANS AND ENCLAVES LIKE GAZA, WHICH IS QUITE DANGEROUS.

THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE UNITED NATIONS SHOULD SIGN UP TO A TWO-STATE SOLUTION WHICH MEANS PALESTINIAN WOULD GET A STATE.

SO HAMAS IS FIGHTING FOR THAT AND ALSO FIGHTING FOR ITS LIFE.

THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER SAID SEPTEMBER THAT HAMAS WAS NO LONGER AN ORGANIZED MILITARY CAPABLE OF THREATENING ISRAEL'S EXISTENCE.

SO HAMAS IS SIGNIFICANTLY DEGRADED, AND AS YOU SAID, TED, YOU CAN'T ELIMINATE A TERRORIST GROUP OVERNIGHT, AND ALL OF THE NEW FIGHT LETTERS COME TO THE FLOOR.

HAVE YOU TO BE READY TO STEP IN WITH A REPLACEMENT SECURITY FORCE AND WITH A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

AND WE DON'T SEE ISRAEL OFFERING THAT.

WE DON'T SEE ANY MAJOR DIPLOMATIC MOVEMENT IN THAT DIRECTION, UNFORTUNATELY.

AND OF COURSE, WE KNOW HEZBOLLAH HAS SAID WE WILL CONTINUE FIGHTING AS LONG AS THE -- THERE'S NO RESOLUTION IN GAZA.

>> OKAY.

WHAT WOULD CONSTITUTE A RESOLUTION IN GAZA?

BECAUSE YOU CAN'T JUST -- YOU CAN JUST POUND THAT PLACE RELENTLESSLY, AND THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ANY GIVE.

>> RIGHT.

SO THERE'S AN INTERMEDIATE STEP, WHICH EVERYONE AGREES, WOULD BE THE MOST DESIRABLE THING WITH, I A CEASE FIRE AND A HOSTAGE SWAP.

SO SOME OF THE PALESTINIAN PRISONERS THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE WOULD BE CHANGED FOR THE ISRAELI CITIZENS SEIZED A YEAR AGO.

AS WELL AS SOME OTHERS, PERHAPS THEY'RE HOLDING ISRAELI MILITARY THAT THEY ALSO TOOK ON THE BORDER.

SO THERE SHOULD BE A PRISONER SWAP.

THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, THE MAJORITY WHO WANT THIS AS A TOP PRIORITY FOR THE GOVERNMENT, BEFORE EVEN THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF HAMAS, AND OF COURSE WE WANT THAT.

WE HAVE ABOUT FOUR AMERICANS WHO ARE STILL BEING HELD BY THE HAMAS FIGHTERS.

SO THAT WOULD BE AN INTERMEDIATE STEP.

AND THE FINAL SOLUTION REALLY HAS TO BE MOVING TOWARDS THIS -- BACK TO THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, WHICH IS, AGAIN, WHAT I SAID, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS AGREED UPON.

BECAUSE IT PROVIDES THE PALESTINIANS WITH A SOVEREIGN STATE.

AND IF I COULD SAY ONE THING, TED, I WAS IN ISRAEL LAST JULY -- OR END OF JUNE.

AND WHAT I HEARD FROM BOTH JEWS WHO HAD BEEN IN AREAS THAT WERE ATTACKED BY HAMAS FIGHTERS AND FROM PALESTINIANS LIVING IN ISRAEL, WAS THAT WE NEED SECURITY.

AND IN ORDER TO HAVE SECURITY, WE EACH NEED OUR SEPARATE SOVEREIGN STATE.

THEY DIDN'T SAY WE'RE GONNA HOLD HANDS AND BE FRIENDS FOREVER.

BUT THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THE SOLUTION FOR SECURITY, IS FOR THE PALESTINIANS LOSE IT HAVE THEIR OWN STATE.

>> AND LAST QUESTION, EVELYN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

IT'S A GREAT CONVERSATION.

FOR THOSE WHO SAY, YOU KNOW, HAMAS STARTED THE WAR; HAMAS BEGAN THE ATROCITIES; THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS CALLING FOR A DEMANDING A CEASE FIRE, DEMANDING HOSTAGE SWAP, THAT WAR IS HELD FOR A REASON.

THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T START WARS, IT'S BECAUSE IT'S A MESS OUT THERE.

HOW DO YOU POND TO FOLKS WHO SAY THAT?

>> WELL, THE PROBLEM IS THAT HAMAS HAS PUT INNOCENT PALESTINIAN PEOPLE RIGHT IN THE CROSSHAIRS.

THEY'RE HIDING AMONGST THEM, AND THEY'RE EXPLOITING THE CIVILIANS.

THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED IN GAZA ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

YOU KNOW, IT WAS ALREADY A YOUNG POPULATION, SO THAT WAS A FOREGONE CONCLUSION WHEN HAMAS STARTED THE WAR, THAT ISRAEL WOULD LAUNCH, YOU KNOW, AN ATTACK BACK TO DEFEND ITSELF.

SO I THINK THAT UNFORTUNATELY WE NEED TO PUT AN END TO THE FIGHTING AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, UNDERSTANDING THAT WE HAVE ALREADY -- ISRAEL HAS ALREADY DESTROYED THE HAMAS AS AN ORGANIZED FIGHTING FORCE.

OF COURSE THEY WANT TO ELIMINATE THE LEADERSHIP.

THAT MAY NOT BE POSSIBLE.

BUT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT IS THAT YOU WILL BE SAVING LIVES, INCLUDING THE LIVES OF ISRAELIS WHO ARE BEING HELD BY HAMAS.

>> EVELYN FARKAS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CONTAIN INSTITUTE, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE APPRECIATE.

>> THANK YOU, TED.

MY PLEASURE.

TIME NOW FOR A DEBATE: TONIGHT, WE HEAR FROM BOTH SIDES ON PROPOSITION 140, WHICH WOULD CREATE OPEN PRIMARIES, ALLOWING ALL ELIGIBLE VOTERS TO CHOOSE ANY PRIMARY ELECTION CANDIDATE REGARDLESS OF POLITICAL PARTY.

JOINING US NOW IN SUPPORT OF TH MEASURE IS FORMER ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL TERRY GODDARD... AND, SPEAKING IN OPPOSITION TO PROP 140, IS FORMER ARIZONA SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, ANDY GOULD.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU BOTH HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH AGAIN.

TERRY, YOU'RE A SUPPORTER OF THIS.

WHY IS THIS A GOOD THING FOR ARIZONA.

>> I THINK IT'S A WONDERFUL THING FOR ARIZONA.

I'VE BEEN A VICTIM OR A VETERAN, I GUESS YOU COULD SAY, OF BOTH SYSTEMS.

BOTH PRIMERS AND CLOSED PARTISAN PRIMARIES.

AND SO I'VE HAD A CHANCE TO SEE THEM FROM THE INSIDE.

AND OCCASIONALLY, YOU KNOW, ANSWER BLIND SQUIRREL CAN FIND A NUT.

THERE ARE GOOD RESULTS FROM BOTH.

BUT I THINK THE OVERWHELMING LOGIC SAYS THAT AN OPEN PRIMARY, ONE THAT'S OPEN TO ALL VOTERS, OPEN TO ALL CANDIDATES, MAKES SO MUCH SENSE BECAUSE THEN ANYBODY RUNNING TO GET NOMINATED TO GET PAST THE PRIMARY, IS GOING TO HAVE TO APPEAL TO A GENERAL AUDIENCE.

NOT JUST THE VERY SMALL GROUP, THE VERY PARTISAN PEOPLE WHO CONTROL THE PRIMARIES TODAY.

AND THAT FRANKLY HAS TO STOP, THEY'RE GOING TO BE EXTREME ON BOTH SIDES OR THEY'LL RUSH TO THE RIGHT AND THEY END UP ELECTING LEGISLATORS AND CONGRESS PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO COMPROMISE, DON'T WANT TO GOVERN, AND SO IT WOULD END THAT SYSTEM.

IT WOULD END THE TAXPAYER SUBSIDY OF THESE CLOSED PARTIES THAT FRANKLY ONLY ALLOW A FEW PEOPLE TO COME IN.

SO, HEY, I THINK ARIZONA IS IN A MESS RIGHT NOW AND, I THINK A VERY IMPORTANT WAY TO GET OUT OF IT IS TO CHANGE HAVE AN OPEN PRIMARY SYSTEM.

>> NOT SUCH A GOOD THING FOR ARIZONA, AND THE REASON IS?

>> WELL, WHAT TERRY FAILS TO MENTION IS THAT IT INVOLVES RANK CHOICE BUILDING.

THIS IS A BAD IDEA THAT'S BEEN IMPORTED FROM CALIFORNIA.

ALTHOUGH, THERE'S A LOT OF BAD IDEAS, AND EMBEDDED IN THIS IS A RANK CHOICE VOTING SYSTEM.

WHAT HAVE YOU IN RANK CHOICE VOTING IS AT BIZARRE BALLOT THAT IS VERY CONFUSING TO VOTERS.

IT LIST 17, EIGHT, 10 CANDIDATES AT A TIME.

VOTERS HAVE TO RANK EACH ONE OF THOSE.

AND WHAT YOU HAVE IS LACK OF TRANSPARENCY AS EACH ROUND GOES THROUGH ON WIDE CHOICE VOTING, CANDIDATES DROP OUT, BUT NOBODY GETS TO SEE THAT.

IT'S ALL INSIDE THE TABULATOR.

AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE ALL OF THE CANDIDATES, VOTES DROP OUT.

THEY CALL THEM EXHAUSTED BALLOTS.

AND IN NEW YORK CITY, IN THE MAYORAL PRIMARY IN 2021, THEY HAD 140,000 SO CALLED EXHAUSTED BALLOTS.

WELL, WHAT THAT MEANS IS BECAUSE SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE DIDN'T RANK EVERY CANDIDATE, THEY THREW OUT THOSE VOTES.

SO AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WANT TRANSPARENCY, THIS HE WANT TO SEE ELECTIONS THEY CAN TRUST, THIS IS A VERY BLACK BOX TYPE OF SYSTEM THAT REDUCES ACCOUNTABILITY AND DISENFRANCHISES VOTERS.

>> OBVIOUSLY THAT'S NOT WHAT IT DOES.

I MEAN 140 DOES ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY.

IT OPENS THE PRIMARY PROCESS.

IT ALLOWS VOTERS TO BE A PART OF A PROCESS JUST THE WAY THEY ARE IN CITIES ACROSS ARIZONA, ALL BUT TWO CITIES HAVE OPEN PRIMARIES NOW.

AND THAT IS FRANKLY A REALLY ELEGANT SYSTEM, BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO -- VOTERS CAN VOTE FOR A REPUBLICAN, A DEMOCRAT, AN INDEPENDENT OR A GREEN.

RANK CHOICE VOTE SOMETHING A POSSIBILITY UNDER THIS, BUT LEGISLATURE WOULD HAVE AN OPTION OF CHOOSING EITHER TOP TWO OR RANK CHOICE, BUT ALL THIS 140 DOES IS TO OPEN THE PRIMARY SYSTEM.

>> LET ME RESPOND THAT, BECAUSE I THOUGHT TERRY MIGHT SAY THAT.

I HAVE THE -- >> THAT HAPPENS TO BE THE PROPOSITION.

>> HOLD ON, TERRY.

>> I LET YOU SPEAK, TERRY.

IN SECTION 4, THIS SECTION DOES NOT PROHIBIT THE USE OF VOTER RANKINGS TO DETERMINE WHICH PERSON OR PERSONS RECEIVE THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF VOTES.

SECTION 6, IF THREE OR MORE CANDIDATES MAY ADVANCE FROM THE PRIMARY ELECTIONS AT THE GENERAL ELECTION FOR AN OFFICE TO WHICH ONE CANDIDATE WILL BE LEGISLATED, VOTER RANKINGS SHALL BE USED TO DETERMINE WHICH CANDIDATE IS ELECTED.

>> AN IMPORTANT STEP -- >> LET ME FINISH.

>> HOLD ON.

>> LET ME FINISH.

YOU ARE PUTTING RANK CHOICE VOTING INTO THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTING.

THIS ISN'T A STATUTE.

AND YOU SAY YOU WANT OPEN PRIMARIES.

WHY?

WHY HAVE YOU PUT ALL THESE PROVISIONS ABOUT RANK CHOICE VOTING THEN?

>> BECAUSE IT'S AN OPTION.

AND IT SHOULD BE.

TO BE RESPONSIBLE RIGHT NOW, I THINK, MANY VOTERS FEEL THAT RIGHT CHOICE VOTING IS THE FAIREST WAY TO GET TO A MAJORITY.

>> THROUGH HAVE IT.

RANK CHOICE VOTING.

>> THE BOTTOMLINE HERE IS THIS 140, IF IT'S APPROVED BY THE VOTERS IN NOVEMBER, WOULD OPEN THE PRIMARIES.

IT WOULD STOP THE STATE SUBSIDY, THE TAXPAYER SUBSIDY, THE PRIMARIES THAT ARE PARTISAN AND ARE CLOSED TO ANYBODY ELSE, WHO'S NOT PART OF THAT CLUB.

IT WOULD ALLOW THE FINAL CANDIDATE, INSTEAD OF BEING ELECTED IN A TINY TURN-OUT PRIMARY, WOULD HAVE TO GO THROUGH AND GET A MAJORITY OF THE ELECTION.

IT GIVES THE OPTION TO HAVE RANK CHOICE VOTING, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT IT REQUIRES.

>> I HEAR HOW THESE OPEN PRIMARIES ARE GONNA HAVE ALL THIS TURN-OUT.

TAKE A LOOK, FOR EXAMPLE, AT THE TUCSON PRIMARIES FOR THE CITY ELECTIONS.

THE MODEL IS SUPPOSED TO BE LOOK AT WHAT CITIES DO WITH OPEN PRIMARIES.

THE TURN-OUT IS 8%, 10%, 15%.

IT IS A DISMAL, IT IS SO BAD.

WE HAD A CASE IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT TO MOVE THE PRIMARIES FROM TUCSON BECAUSE IT WAS SO BAD.

A SECOND THING I MUST SAY HERE, THE ASSUMPTION THAT EVERY INDEPENDENT IS A MODERATE IS A FALSE ASSUMPTION.

THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE MODERATES, THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE EVEN MORE RADICAL THAN PEOPLE IN THE PARTIES.

THIS IS NOT ONLY BASED ON FALSE ASSUMPTIONS BUT IT DOESN'T EVEN LOOK AT THE LANGUAGE OF THE PROP ITSELF, WHICH IS RANK CHOICE.

>> I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE IMPORTANCE OF WHETHER INDEPENDENTS ARE RADICALS OR MODERATES.

IT IS -- WHAT THIS DOES DO, WHAT 140 DOES DO IS IT OPENS THE DOOR TO STOP TREATING INDEPENDENTS AS SOME KIND OF A LOWER LIFE FORM.

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW IN ARIZONA IF YOU'RE AN INDEPENDENT, YOU'VE GOTTA TAKE A REPUBLICAN OR A DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY BALLOT.

YOU DON'T HAVE ONE OF YOUR OWN.

HAVE YOU SIX TIMES AS MANY SIGNATURES TO GET ON THE BALLOT, AND SO INDEPENDENTS ARE EFFECTIVELY DISENFRANCHISED BY THE CURRENT PRIMARY SYSTEM.

>> THAT IS NONSENSE, TED.

INDEPENDENTS CAN VOTE IN REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES RIGHT NOW.

IF THE GOAL WAS TO ALLOW INDEPENDENTS TO GET BALLOTS, WHY NOT PROPOSE A STATUTE FOR WHAT INDEPENDENTS GET BALLOTS, INSTEAD OF 18 AMENDMENTS FOR THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTION AND DOZENS OF LAWS THAT ARE AFFECTED.

>> BECAUSE ALL THESE YEARS LEGISLATURE COULD HAVE DONE THAT AND THEY'VE DONE NOTHING.

THEY DON'T WANT INDEPENDENTS TO BE PART OF THEIR PARTY.

AND I THINK 1/3 OF THE ARIZONA VOTERS INDEPENDENTS.

THEY OUGHTA BE RECOGNIZED, THEY OUGHTA BE PART OF A FAIR ELECTIONS PROCESS.

AND THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE TODAY.

>> THE IDEA OF AN UNDER -- AND I MENTION THIS BECAUSE THE IDEA THAT THE INDEPENDENTS ARE GOING TO MODERATE THESE PRIMARIES, THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET A BROADER BASE, SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE.

>> I DIDN'T SAY THEY WERE GOING TO MODERATE IT.

I SIMPLY SAID THEY OUGHT TO BE PARTICIPATING.

1/3 OF THE VOTERS THAT THEY CAN'T RUN IN THE PRIMARY BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A PRIMARY.

SO THEY NEED SIX TIMES AS MANY PHOTOS GET ON THE BALANCE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION.

>> THEN CHANGE IT TO SIGNATURES, TERRY.

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION IN 18 PLACES.

>> WHY HASN'T THE LEGISLATURE DONE THAT?

THEY'VE HAD THE CHANCE.

THEY'VE NOT FIXED IT IN ALL THESE YEARS, AND NOW I THINK IT'S TIME FOR THE CITIZENS TO STEP FORWARD WITH THIS INITIATIVE.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY'VE DONE.

>> I THINK TERRY SAID SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT.

YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THEY WANT RANK CHOICE VOTING >> I DID NOT MENTION THE WORDS RANK CHOICE VOTING.

I'M SORRY.

ALL THIS DOES IS PROVIDE AN OPTION, IF SOMEBODY IN THE FUTURE, IN THE LEGISLATURE, A MAJORITY DECIDES THAT THEY WANT RANK CHOICE VOTING, THEY CAN PUT IT IN.

BUT RIGHT NOW THEY ALSO HAVE THE -- ALL THIS INITIATIVE 140 DOES IS OPEN THE PRIMARIES.

>> DOESN'T THIS INITIATIVE NOT -- NOT LEAD TO MORE INCLUSIVE POLITICS?

DOES IT NOT LEAD TO THAT?

DOES IT LEAD TO A MORE EXTREME SITUATION THAT WE ALREADY HAVE?

>> IT CERTAINLY DOES.

RANK CHOICE VOTE IS SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE HATE.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS BEING BANNED IN STATE AFTER STATE.

AND IT TERMS OF OPEN PRIMARIES, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND GET MORE PEOPLE TO PARTICIPATE, WHAT YOU'RE DOING IS SPLINTERING THE ELECTORATE EVEN FURTHER BECAUSE NOW YOU CAN'T EVEN AGGREGATE IDEAS USED UNDER TWO PARTIES.

SO YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A SYSTEM LIKE ITALY OR FRANCE WHERE THEY HAVE 18 OR 20 PARTIES, ITALY HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET A MAJORITY PARTY SINCE WORLD WAR II.

>> SCOTTSDALE, MESA, EVERY CITY IN ARIZONA BUT NOGALES AND TUCSON HAVE OPEN PRIMARIES.

ARE THEY BECOMING SORT OF A THIRD WORLD SITUATION?

NO, OF COURSE NOT.

>> AND 8% OR 10% VOTER PARTICIPATION.

>> SOME CITIES, IN TUCSON -- OUT OF THE TWO -- [ INDISCERNIBLE ] >> COUPLE OF MORE QUESTIONS.

DOES THE CURRENT SYSTEM NOT CATER TO THE EXTREME, AND SHOULD SOMETHING BE DONE?

>> THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE COUNTRY IS DIVIDED.

AND SO THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE BLAMING THE PARTIES FOR DIVIDING PEOPLE IS NONSENSE.

WE ARE SPLIT ON RELIGION.

WE ARE SPLIT ON SOCIAL IDEAS.

WE'RE SPLIT ON EVERYTHING IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO THE PARTY'S ARE A REFLECTION OF AMERICA.

AND THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE GOING TO CONTRIVE SOME SYSTEM TO CHANGE THAT IS NAIVE.

>> YOU KNOW, SOMETIME WAY IN THE DISTANCE PAST THE PARTIES MIGHT HAVE BEEN REFLECTIVE OF AMERICA, BUT IT'S NOT TRUE TODAY.

IN ARIZONA THE INDEPENDENTS ARE BECOMING THE MAJORITY PARTY.

THEY'VE BASICALLY SAID WE DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH EITHER ONE OF THESE ORGANIZATIONS, AND WHOEVER IS RUNNING THE ORGANIZATIONS, RUNNING AND VOTING IN PRIMARIES IS A TINY PERCENTAGE OF THE TITLE.

SO 1/3, IF YOU TAKE EITHER PRIMARY, YOU'VE GOT ABOUT 1/3 OF THE VOTERS, MAYBE 15 OR 20% VOTE IN THE PRIME PRIMARY.

A MAJORITY OF THAT IS 3% ARE GOING TO DETERMINE WHO GOES TO THE LEGISLATURE OR WHO -- >> THAT'S NOT TRUE.

>> MY LAST QUESTION TO YOU IS, GIVEN THAT, DOES THIS NOT MAKE IT MORE CONFUSING OR.

>> DOES THE PHOENIX MUNICIPAL ACTIONS MAKE IT MORE CONFUSING?

NO, IT DOESN'T.

BECAUSE PEOPLE RUN WHO THEY ARE, AND IT GIVES THE VOTERS THE CHANCE TO SEE WHO THEY LIKE AND GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO VOTE FOR THEM.

>> NOBODY EVEN PARTICIPATES IN THOSE PRIMARIES.

IT'S A DISMALLY LOW PARTICIPATE RATE.

THESE ARE NOT MODELS THAT WILL BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

IF YOU WANT TO TRY TO GET MORE MODERATES AND PEOPLE TO VOTE IN GENERAL, THEN LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.

DON'T SILENCE THEM.

>> OKAY, WELL, WE WON'T SILENCE YOU GUYS.

[ SPEAKING OVER ONE ANOTHER ] GOOD STUFF, GOOD HAVE YOU BOTH HERE.

THANKS FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU, TED.

>> THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

I'M TED SIMONS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.