>>This week on NewsNight an in-depth look at proposals for the development of the Hungerford land in Eatonville.

Plus, Florida lawmakers debate proposed legislation to penalize local officials who remove Confederate and other historical monuments.

NewsNight starts now.

[MUSIC] Hello, I'm Steve Mort, and welcome to NewsNight, where we take an in-depth look at the top stories and issues in central Florida and how they affect all of us.

First tonight, a progress report on plans for the Hungerford land.

As we've discussed on the program before, Orange County public Schools efforts to sell the site in Eatonville for housing fell through last year after the town council voted against rezoning the historic property and the developer pulled out.

It followed Orlando Sentinel reporting on the land's history and a backlash over gentrification.

The site was home to a private boarding school for black children, which was handed to OCPS in 1952 following a legal fight decided by a segregationist judge.

The school that remained Hungerford Prep closed in 2009 and was demolished in 2020.

It's now the subject of a lawsuit and a vigorous debate over what should happen to the land seen by many as a key part of Eatonville history.

Krystel Knowles went along to the recent Zora Neale Hurston festival in Eatonville and spoke with one of the leaders of the effort to bring the land back to the community.

>>As the first incorporated African-American municipality in the U.S.. Eatonville Community leader John Beacham says the town's heritage should be preserved.

>>Because if you don't know the history, Eatonville will lose.

>>I caught up with Beacham at a recent Zora Festival, where he told me he hopes Eatonville can maintain its history despite pressures for development.

>>It has historical values and historical values deeper than anyone can imagine.

Kind of like the indigenous people.

This is our land.

We have a relationship with this land, and that's what the fight is all about.

It's about the relationship with the land.

>>Eatonville's storied past includes Zora Neale Hurston.

A famous author, anthropologist and filmmaker.

Broadway performer Michael James Scott and Robert Hungerford, founder of the First School for Black Children in Central Florida.

It's the sight of that school that is now the focus of politics in Eatonville and a debate over its ownership.

>>I just want them to learn something.

>>Beacham says he's hopeful that Eatonville will eventually regain control of the historic Hungerford land.

But he says he's aware it will be an uphill battle.

>>We're in the planning stages of something, something beautiful, something historical.

I like to see that property develop around tourism, cultural heritage and the arts in Eatonville.

If you come here any day during the week.

There are people from France, Nashville, Phoenix, and I've talked to these people.

They want to come visit this town called Eatonville.

They want to visit this place that Zora Neale Hurston writes about.

So we already have the tourism trade already coming.

So we need to enhance on it.

And that enhancement may be an investment from Orange County not seeing Eatonville as a municipality that's dying, but an opportunity.

So when we have those 77 million visitors come to OIA that this is one of the destinations.

>>That's the view of John Beacham rounding out that report by Krystel Knowles.

Well, let's bring in our panel now to break it all down.

Joining us in the studio this week, Daralene Jones, afternoon anchor and investigative reporter over at WFTV Channel 9.

Thanks for being here, Daralene.

Really appreciate it.

Desiree Stennett covers race and inequality issues over at the Orlando Sentinel.

Thanks so much for coming in Desiree.

>>Happy to be here.

>>And Tammie Fields is afternoon host and host of Justice for All on Spectrum News 13.

Thank you for being here, Tammie.

>>Thank you for having me.

>>Thanks for being here, guys, today.

Let me start with you, Daralene, on this one.

And just sort of explain for our viewers who might not be familiar with Eatonville why it holds such historic significance in our community.

>>Well, I mean, really, to tell that story, you have to go back to the days of emancipation, Right.

Because you're talking about a community, a settlement that was really born out of freed slaves, trying to create a settlement for themselves.

It was a sense of pride, a sense of freedom.

Hey, listen, you don't want us on your land, on your property.

We will settle here and develop our own.

And so when you think about this idea, there were hundreds of black settlements throughout the United States.

And so few of them were actually acknowledged and recognized.

And then you have a community like Eatonville that really became something.

Homes were built.

It became a settlement, a community for black people.

And at one point only black people lived there.

A sense of pride, a sense of community.

And I think that is what you really have to think about when you think about a community like Eatonville.

>>Do you guys find when you talk to people in that community that they are keenly aware of the history and importance of it?

>>Absolutely.

I think even the slogan of the town, "The town that freedom built."

It's it's something that looks back to emancipation in the post-Civil War era.

And I think that many of the people who live in Eatonville, their families have been there for generations, and they truly do feel a sense of connection to the town.

>>Let's talk a little bit about your reporting.

I mean, you've dug up a lot of information about the site of the Robert Hungerford Norman Industrial school and then Hungerford Prep subsequently.

Why is that land, the Hungerford land, so called so important to Eatonville's history?

And how did OCPS come to own it?

>>So the Orange County Public Schools has owned that land for about 70 years now.

They they purchased it at a time before schools were desegregated.

And their goal at the time was to create a a public school for for black students.

When there was there were few options in the area or even across the state.

But that school has really served a significant role in the history of Eatonville.

It was it was founded within a couple of years of the town being founded.

So education became an important part of the town almost since its founding.

And there is a controversy now because when the school board bought the land 70 years ago, first there the it went through the court system.

And the person who got the final say in the in the Florida Supreme Court was a segregationist judge who did not believe that schools should be integrated.

And and and now the town many years later wants to see that land become something that serves the people who have been there for generations.

And they fear that under the school board's ownership, they may not be able to see that future.

>>And initially, it was supposed to be used for education.

And then somewhere along the lines, that language got shifted or removed because of how the different parcels were separated.

>>Let's talk a little bit about what might be on that land next, what might become of it.

Tammie you talk to residents in Eatonville last year.

What did you hear from people in the town about what they would like to see now, what that on that vacant Hungerford land lot?

>>I heard over and over that they wanted to be used for educational purposes.

Number one and number two, I heard people say we want to be able to live in this community as long as we want to.

We want our kids and our grandkids to be able to afford to live here.

And we do not want it to see this gentrified in a way to where our community suffers.

And is erased by something new.

>>Well, let's talk about some of the specific projects that are under consideration for that land.

One of them is Zora Neale Hurston Museum Campus.

There's already a museum, of course, in Eatonville.

Desiree you've done a lot of reporting on this.

Tell us who's behind that idea.

>>Yes, there's a woman named N.Y. Nathiri.

She has lived in Eatonville most of her life, and her family dates back generations.

Just like many of the residents at Eatonville.

She runs the current Zora Museum and she wants to see a Zora campus be built on a portion of the 100 acres that's left of the Hungerford land.

And it's - for her, her vision is that it would be not only a state of the art museum, but also be able to add a STEM lab so that children in Eatonville have access and and also a meeting site that can host large meetings to bring even more tourism to the to the town.

She she sees a vision for that.

>>The STEM lab maintaining that education requirement.

>>The task force planning a forthcoming state run African-American history museum.

It's also been eyeing Eatonville.

I believe it's due to deliver its report to the legislature by July.

I mean, could Eatonville be a contender, do you think?

>>I would say absolutely.

It's definitely under consideration.

I got the chance to speak with Geraldine Thompson, Senator Geraldine Thompson, who is leading the board that will decide where that museum goes.

She is well aware of the conflicts over the land ownership and the fact that the town residents want to see the land back in control of the Eatonville residents.

So that's something she's taking into consideration.

And there's many other cities across the state that are also being considered for this.

So it's very possible that Eatonville could be chosen, but there are some definite limitations based on the ownership of the land that that could stand in the way of Eatonville seeing that museum.

>>The school district really could have moved forward with, you know, a sale last year, and that did not happen.

And so I think that says a lot about conversations that are still happening, I think Senator Geraldine Thompson certainly yields a very powerful voice in the community of Central Florida.

And so one would hope that someone would see the bigger picture, the bigger goal here and do what's right.

>>Well, picking up on that, I mean, there has been a push for OCPS to donate that land right, to it to a community trust.

OCPS initially said it couldn't legally do that.

The Orlando Sentinel has talked to a few legal experts that have that have questioned that position.

What is the status of that discussion Desiree?

>>So from the beginning of this, the the residents in Eatonville wanted to see that land donated into a trust that they could decide the future of their town where they live.

And the school board really did take the stance that not only did they not think that that was an appropriate thing to do, but they said that it was illegal to do that.

But we spoke to-- >>Irresponsible, I think was the word.

>>Irresponsible.

And and we spoke to several real estate law experts who looked at the statutes and who looked at school board policy.

And they found that that is not true, that they, the school board, can choose to donate this land should they should they decide to do so.

They could do that today.

But I think that at this point, they are making the argument that that would just not be the prudent thing to do because they really want to see financially what the future of the land will be before they could make that decision.

But it is worth noting that if the if Eatonville is chosen for the State African-American History Museum and the school board has said on record that they would donate the land for that purpose, but that will leave in question how much land is needed of the hundred acres and what would happen with the rest of the land left over that the state does not need?

>>Tammie there is a lawsuit that's been filed right by the the association to preserve the Eatonville community backed by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

I'm wondering what that lawsuit is seeking?

>>It's seeking to absolutely ensure that that land is used for an educational reason.

They want that to be a part of it.

They do not want to see development move in there and it literally moves people out because they can't afford to stay.

>>And that's what will happen when you have commercial development.

Move into a community eventually it does start to encroach on, you know, what is left.

You've seen that in other communities.

You don't even have to focus on Eatonville to say, know, that's a no brainer.

>>And it's clear that all the way around it is development and a lot of development so that people who are living in Eatonville, they're looking at this and saying, you know, we're likely going to be next if we don't fight for our land.

>>Well, the town of Eatonville has been working right to develop a comprehensive plan, right Desiree?

And also to sort of set up impact fees for developers, which I guess it didn't have before.

I mean, what the town leaders themselves sort of envisage.

How do they they hope these steps will help the community protect itself from all this development pressure?

>>Absolutely.

That that's been the focus of the town's new mayor, Mayor Angie Gardner, to make sure that I think that everyone in Eatonville knows that eventually this land will be developed.

There will be something placed there.

It may not be the housing that was planned that if the last sale went through in March.

But I think at this point the governmental leaders in Eatonville are really trying to protect the town as best they can so that if a developer comes in and build something huge and it puts a strain, let's say, on the already strained sewer system in Eatonville, it doesn't create a situation where there's this oasis of a new development that has wonderful amenities.

And then the rest of the town who has been there for so long and left to deal with the consequences of that.

So the town is really looking to insert these impact fees to make sure that everyone can benefit from development and even looking at things like community land trusts so that in the future we don't have these debates about the land in Eatonville because so much of it is already owned by people who live there, who have lived there and plan to stay.

>>I want to just round out this conversation, ending it where we started.

Daralene, and that is that there are many African-American important African-American communities right in central Florida that face sort of discussions over their history.

You've done a lot of reporting yourself about the history of Ocoee.

I mean, when you do that reporting, do you find that residents in those communities elsewhere sort of have their, you know, have a sense of the history of those communities, much like people in Eatonville do?

>>Oh, absolutely.

I think the only thing that's missing is that we haven't talked about it enough.

And they are well aware, which is why I think when you go into some of these communities, you do see people who have been there, you know, for decades and who intend to stay.

They don't intend to leave because they understand the significance of their presence in these communities.

You know, I think that when you go into a community like Eatonville, I shared earlier, I have several friends who don't live in Eatonville, but they own property there that was passed down to them from generations before they intend to keep their land.

There is a sense of pride there because when you talk about the history of how black people got the land, you don't just give that away.

You don't just walk away from it.

And so I think that's why you see the fight in a community like Eatonville and others throughout the central Florida community, because land is not easy to come by.

And for black people, it was not always a given that we would have a piece of what is supposed to be the American dream.

>>You talk, Tammie, to a lot of residents, of communities like that for your series Justice for All.

Is that does that correspond to what you hear?

>>For sure.

I mean, generational wealth is a real thing and people understand that to rent is one thing, but to have property that you pass down to your children is a completely different thing.

I mean, we even know in the market you bought a house ten years ago, you have seen increases.

So imagine if that house is in your family for 50 years or 70 years or 80 years just alone the property and that value, it's irreplaceable.

>>And you think about.

I will just say this.

You think about the value of land.

If land was not so valuable.

>>Yes.

>>White people wouldn't have burned black people out of what would become Ocoee back in 1920.

They did it because they wanted the land.

You know, land is a very valuable thing in this country.

And so and it always has been.

That's why we didn't have it for so long.

And we didn't even have the right to get it for so long.

>>And that generational wealth issue was such a big part of the discussion after Hurricane Katrina, where so many people lost their homes in the flooding when the levees broke.

Well, we'd like to hear from you.

What do you think the Hungerford land in Eatonville should be used for?

Be sure to join the conversation on social media.

We're at WUCF TV on Facebook, X and also on Instagram.

Okay.

Next tonight, the Florida legislature presses ahead with a bill that would protect historical monuments, including Confederate statues.

The proposed legislation would impose penalties on local governments and officials that remove, quote, Floridian and American history.

It comes amid a controversy over the removal of a Confederate monument in Jacksonville.

After years of debate, Jacksonville's mayor, Donna Deegan, in December ordered the removal of the women of the Southland Monument, which sat in the city's Springfield Park.

It's now in a storage facility.

In Jacksonville the issue sparked a furious debate over whether the mayor had the power to unilaterally order the removal of the monument that sits in a historic district and is included in the National Register of Historic Places.

City council members have grilled the city's general counsel on the process behind the removal, including whether a certificate was needed and whether the private donations that paid for it were accepted legally.

>>I've said it many times before.

We do not have a monument crisis.

We have an abuse of power crisis here.

My inquiries and those of my colleagues are about the process, in particular about whether executive overreach occurred.

>>The previous Republican mayor of Jacksonville ordered the removal of a Confederate monument as well without council approval.

But it was not in a historically designated park and was removed using public money.

But for those who backed the removal of Confederate monuments, the issue is being swept up in a distracting debate over process.

>>These monuments know what they stand for, and we don't want them here.

This is the 21st century.

Can we move past this?

>>You're recognized to explain the bill.

>>Now the Florida legislature is weighing into the monument issue.

>>An accurate and factual history belongs to all Floridians and future generations.

>>Debating bills aimed at stopping local governments from removing or destroying monuments.

>>We're not remembering history as it was during the Confederacy.

We are remembering on time when people in power during the reconstruction intentionally built these statues with hate and violence in their hearts.

>>Under the proposals, local leaders could face fines or removal from office for taking down or damaging a monument on public land.

All right.

This is an important issue for many people in our state.

And Daralene, let's come to you first on this one.

I mean, why does the Jacksonville mayor argue that the women of the Southland monument needed to be removed in the first place?

>>This is one of those topics where it's it's like a no brainer.

I mean, we we all understand the historical context, the history of of people.

But as we continue to progress as a society, as a as a country, do we really want to celebrate what what they stood for?

And I think that's the real thing here.

And it begs the question for so many people, why was this even a debate?

But there are people who believe that it's part of history, and so we can't erase that part of history as well.

>>Well, there are people that believe that.

And Tammie, you know, Spectrum has covered this issue in Florida over the years.

What are the counter arguments that we hear a lot at various hearings on Confederate monuments is that they sort of offer important lessons about history that we shouldn't forget.

I mean, generally, how do proponents of preserving them support their position?

>>You will hear people say over and over and over again that it's heritage, it's our heritage.

It is not hate.

But you'll hear the counter argument say, well, okay, but not on public property.

Not on government property.

Our taxpayers dollars shouldn't be paid to maintain those symbols.

And so, yeah, you'll hear that it's it's heritage.

But as Daralene was just saying, when you start uncovering the layers of what it means and how these monuments went up and when they went up, they didn't go up right after the Civil War.

>>Right.

>>They went up almost a thousand of them, some 850 or so.

They went up specifically around that time when people of color were struggling to get their civil rights.

And so there were white supremacists who wanted to send a message with these monuments.

So make no mistake about it, they were put up for a specific reason.

>>And I think that if you just imagine yourself within a black community going to school, going to work and passing these monuments to enslavement truly in your own community and and in front of government buildings, and it's hard to justify the the educational value or the historic value of of something like that, I think, in modern society.

>>I mean, the Confederate monuments issue, Daralene, has sort of faced scrutiny in recent years.

I mean, including here in Orlando.

I mean, have there been certain events that have sort of triggered public debate?

Because this does pop up from time to time and it has done over the decades.

>>So I think that a lot of people got courage to our reignite these debates after the summer of 2020.

I think that's when we saw a lot of people sort of get the courage to start speaking up for things that that have been discussed very broadly for a very long time.

But it's it was almost like, well, we have everyone's attention now, so let's, you know, reinvigorate this conversation.

There seemed to be momentum for equality in our society, for justice in our society.

But like everything else, the conversation wanes over time.

And so I think, you know, for me, I think that's when I started, you know, the voices about it seemed to become louder.

>>Desiree where does the the governor.

How has he responded to this debate?

>>So Governor DeSantis is sort of taking the stance of many people that support keeping these monuments and saying that it is a symbol of history and and that it would be erased, erasing history to to remove that.

Of course, people who support removing these monuments disagree with that.

But I also add, as we were talking about Eatonville earlier and the potential for the African-American History Museum in watching the discussions about where that museum might go.

It actually came up the concept of these these Confederate monuments as a possibility of maybe even placing them inside of a museum setting because it's something that's supposed to focus on history.

And and that is the argument for the supporters.

I think it'll be a hard sell to get anyone, especially like Senator Geraldine Thompson on board.

But I bring it up because that's a part of the debate.

If it's history, should it be inside of a setting that is dedicated to history.

>>And not necessarily in a public place?

>>Absolutely.

>>Yeah, that that's the question, I guess.

I mean, just finally and I kind of alluded to this before, I mean, this has been a discussion, the Confederate monuments debate.

It's not new, right?

I mean, this has been an issue that has been had over the decades.

Daralene said, you know, our memories are short, but we've had this discussion before.

>>We have we have had it for some time.

And I think that we heard the like, complaints about it.

But the complaints have gotten louder and louder and louder and louder.

And I think that people, older people have kind of handed the baton down to younger people and said, this is an issue and we need to have this removed.

And lawmakers are starting to listen.

I mean, we saw in Tampa where a monument was removed on government property and there were a group of commissioners who said, you know, the time has come.

We need to take it down.

>>It happened here in Orlando.

I mean, well, it was moved the Johnny Reb statue from Lake Eola.

But, yeah, I mean, I feel like after racist attacks, you know, we had the Charlottesville incident and then there was discussion about the removal of these statues then.

And so it is an ebb and flow.

You know, I think having constant conversation about it, you know, would be better.

But, you know, that's that's just how the cookie crumbles, as they say.

>>I think that after Charleston, when Governor Nikki Haley at that time decided to remove the flag after Mother Emanuel was attacked and parishioners who welcomed someone in brutally shot them, I think that people of color don't want to wait until something horrible happens before someone makes a decision to remove something that people find offensive.

I think the bottom line is people want to be thoughtful, know the history, understand the history, and not try to whitewash it or change it and make decisions really based on that.

>>Well, as you say, politicians are listening.

It'll be very interesting to see what ends up happening in the Florida legislature on this monuments issue.

You can find a link to the bill entitled Protection of Historical Monuments and Memorials on our website.

wucf.org/newsnight.

Well, that is all the time we have for this week.

My thanks to Daralene Jones from WFTV, Channel 9.

Desiree Stennett from the Orlando Sentinel.

Tammie Fields from Spectrum News 13, thank you so much for coming in today, guys.

Really fascinating conversation.

We'll see you next Friday night at 8:30 here on WUCF.

In the meantime, for all of us here at NewsNight, take care and have a great week.