-If you told, teenage Vijay -that he would be -the CEO of any company, -He would have -thought you were lying.

-And, -I never really expected to -I never I never chased -this position.

-In August of last year, -Vermont Public, -my organization, -got a new CEO, Vijay Singh.

-He came to us -by way of two public -radio stations -in California LAist, formerly -KPCC in Los Angeles, -and most recently -Capital Radio, known as Cap -radio in Sacramento.

-And in full disclosure, -!I was part of a group of staff -that advised -our board of directors -when they made the hire.

-I think -just from the day I met you, -I was just been like, -wow, he's got so much vision.

-And I don't know how the hell -we're going to get there, -but I like the way -this guy's talking about it.

-This is Vijays -!first time being a CEO, though -he has had a hand -in ushering companies -through times of deep change, -including digital transitions -at those radio forward -organizations.

-!He also learned how to quickly -put out some fires -in that most recent job -!as chief operating and content -officer at Cap radio.

-Quite frankly, -they, had really bad -financial mismanagement.

-In addition to that, -previous GM is accused -of stealing some money -from the organization.

-So it was a, combination -of really, really bad things.

-And that really -I learned how quickly, -I was good at running, -a large institution.

-And helping an organization -out of crisis.

-that was, -kind of the first time -where I ever thought, -oh, maybe this, like, -senior leadership thing -is, is a good fit for me.

-Yeah, Vijay -!kept on that leadership course -and made his way -to Vermont public.

-But just nine months -into his tenure.

-Things took a turn.

-President Trump issued -an executive order overnight -instructing the Corporation -for Public Broadcasting -to halt all funding for PBS -and NPR, back federal -funding for public media.

-1.1 billion -for public broadcasting.

-That's all of the funding -for the next two years -media stations around -the country are waking up -to a new reality.

-Vijay and I spoke on August -29th, 2025, -and two days before this -interview, Vermont Public -eliminated 15 positions -at the organization -and shifted two full time -roles to part time.

-Those cuts amounted to a 14% -reduction -!in Vermont public's workforce.

-In an interview -after the announcement, -Vijay said that the layoffs -were a direct result -of the loss of federal funds.

-!It's been a time of heartbreak -for all of us, -to say the least.

-I wanted to -sit down with Vijay because, -well, he's the guy in charge -through all of this.

-The guy who has to answer to -and for all of this change.

-And I had some broader -questions as well about PBS, -NPR and its member stations -finding themselves -on the bad side -of our current administration -about what -the future looks like, -not just for our station, -but like news writ large.

-And of course, -when it comes to our station, -I had some direct questions -for Vijay as well.

-do you have any final words -for those -!who have lost their their jobs -right now?

-From Vermont Public, -this is Home Goings, -a show -that invites you to eavesdrop -on candid conversations -!with people who will challenge -what you think you know.

-I'm IRA Flynn.

-Today, a conversation -with Vermont Public CEO -Vijay Singh -about how he's responding -at our station -to the recent cuts -to federal funding.

-Also, -about some of the assumptions -folks make about those of us -who work in public media, -from accountability -to maintaining integrity -to layoffs.

-We're unpacking it all.

-This is home goings, -and thankfully, -we're still a proud -member of the NPR network.

-Welcome home.

-I just want to acknowledge -that it's a really sad -time for us right now.

-Kind of just wanted to start -with that.

-some of our colleagues -have been laid off.

-They were just laid off -two days ago, -some of whom worked here -for a long time, -one of whom worked very -closely with us on this show.

-Shout out to James.

-I thought maybe -we could just start -with a general check in.

-having to make that decision -was one of the hardest things -I've ever done in my career.

-Probably the hardest, -and understanding, you know, -the impact that that has -on all of our talented -and and dedicated colleagues, -is, is devastating.

-And yeah, that's -my responsibility, to, -you know, -the organization overall.

-And so I wouldn't -have made that decision if, -if we didn't have to, but, -it doesn't -it doesn't make it any easier -and it doesn't make this -moment not just feel awful.

-We'll be circling -back to some more questions -I have about that, -just in, like, -the larger scope of what's -happening for our industry.

-But first things first, -I kind of -want to talk about what it is -you actually do -because there's -this dissonance for me.

-When I think about a CEO, -I think about, you know, -!these corporate conglomerates, -and sometimes -I'll think about, -I don't know, -like the influence -you could have on -company stock -!And then we work at this like, -nonprofit that tells stories -for a living -and is member funded.

-And, it is just so -it has such a different model -than, like, -what I would think of -when I think of a CEO -or a corporate CEO.

-And so I'm wondering like, -what is it you do?

-How would you -write your job description?

-I mean, I think I'm the, -the ultimate decision maker.

-So when when, you know, -there's a disagreement -amongst teams, -I got to make the final call.

-And so that has, -many different ripple effects -or, ways of showing up, -so on, you know, the shape -of the team on being, -you know, in terms of our -communications, in terms of, -strategic approach, like long -term, long term thinking -in, in how we are going -to, maximize -the impact of our service.

-And so it's coordinating the, -the team in that way, all, -all of our staff, -but also being the, -main spokesperson -for the organization as well.

-So in terms of the, -community connections -that we have, -stakeholder connections -in the community, -I'm also sort of -first in line -and ultimately responsible -for those.

-And then the last thing -!that I would call out, I mean, -there are many other things, -but I think one of the most -important things -is sort of chief fundraiser.

-So, of course, we have a very -talented development staff, -and I don't mean to, diminish -their, their expertise, -but at the end of the day, -I'm the one responsible for, -bringing in the revenue -that supports the work -that we do -and making sure -that the sort of machinations -that make all of -what is possible -for an organization -our size in a state -as small as Vermont, is, -you know, as, as functioning -as smoothly as possible.

-I mean, that doesn't sound -unlike some of the more like, -platitude and like, jargon -I was using earlier for like, -a larger corporation.

-How does that show up -as different, I guess.

-And or does it even in a, at -a place like Vermont public?

-Yeah.

-So I mean, at a, -!at a nonprofit in general, but -especially for public media, -Vermont public, -we don't have shareholders.

-Right.

-So our community -are sort of the proxy -for our shareholders, -and we don't have, -you know, we're not looking -for the stock price.

-We're not trying -to raise the stock price.

-And in that sense, -I think the job is actually -a lot easier because, -you're kind of, gaming -the system when you are, -trying to increase -shareholder -value versus actually -delivering value -for a customer.

-And that's -what we get to focus on.

-That's -what I get to focus on is -are we having -the biggest impact -we can for the communities -that we intend to serve?

-And so I think that's -that's a pretty significant, -distinction between the sort -of typical corporate CEO -and being the CEO of a place -like Vermont Public.

-you haven't been our CEO -for very long.

-Has it been a full year?

-Not.

Not quite.

-Almost.

-October 1st will be a year.

-I guess I'm curious.

Like, -how did you land here?

-What's your trajectory -toward being a CEO?

-I you -know, -if if you told, teenage V.J.

-that he would be -the CEO of any company, -you know, I would have -definitely thought you were.

-He would have -thought you were lying.

-And, -I never really expected to.

-I never chased, -this position.

-I went to film school, -which was an interesting -experience.

-I, I would, you know, like, -like a lot of degrees -and maybe, unfortunately, -!the majority of degrees today.

-I don't know how -much it really helped in my, -early career.

-But it did introduce me -!to a lot of really interesting -things.

And.

-Right after I graduated, -I made some documentaries.

-And that was a great -experience -to learn production.

-I mean, I was a, -one person crew.

-I did everything -top to bottom, -and that was fantastic -for learning -how to do all of the things.

-But documentaries, much like -today, don't pay very well.

-And so eventually -I had to make some money -and I had always been -a digital tinkerer.

-So making websites and apps -and, in the early days of -the internet.

-And so I kind of combined -my skills for media and my, -my digital sensibility.

-And eventually -I got into public media -at KPCC in Los Angeles, -and there I was in charge -of product management.

-and I realized, actually, -that the problem -that I was trying to solve -as a documentary -filmmaker is the same problem -that public media has solved -in finding funding sources, -how to how to pay creators -to tell, awesome stories.

-And as a product manager, -doing that -on a really detailed -level for, specific -audience facing products -was a really interesting -challenge for me.

-it was KPCC, -now it's called alias.

-We acquired -LA while I was there, -and I helped sort of stand up -that that part -of the business.

-And so I took that knowledge -and eventually -moved to Sacramento -in Northern California.

-For family reasons, -but got involved in Cap -radio there, -and it was sort of, -originally tasked -to do a similar thing, -like help -make the digital -transformation -help bring product management -thinking, -human centered design -thinking to cap radio.

-Unfortunately, right -when I arrived, Cap radio, -kind of exploded.

-It was a mess.

-And, yeah, can can -tell, lots of stories -about the summer -that I spent there.

-!But really, the highlight was, -I was thrust into, -a much more senior position -than I expected to be in, -being asked to run -the organization after the, -previous GM was essentially -forced to step down.

-that really -I learned how quickly, -I was good at running, -a large institution.

-And helping an organization -out of crisis.

-And that that was, -kind of the first time -where I ever thought, -oh, maybe this, like, -senior leadership thing -is, is a good fit for me.

-Yeah, yeah.

-I don't think you can use -words like explosions -!and messes without just, like, -can you give a little -what happens at cop radio?

-I mean, I'm -sure we can Google it, -but yeah, -when I hear from you, -tap cap radio, -has, a wonderful page -set up for the whole saga.

-!So you can go to their website -and read the entire history.

-But, quite frankly, -they, had really bad -financial mismanagement.

-And, in addition to that, -you know, -the previous GM is accused -of stealing some money -from the organization.

-So it was a, combination -of really, really bad things.

-They -they were in the midst -of a construction project -where the costs had -!kind of gotten out of control.

-!It was in downtown Sacramento, -which at one point -was being revived.

-And then Covid hit.

-And like most downtowns -have kind of now died.

-And so it was -a culmination of so many, -so many really bad things.

-And, -you know, -any day of that summer cap -radio should have gone -out of business.

-We had a lot of conversations -where it was like, -you know, it would be better -just more honest -to the community.

-Like, -we should just close up shop, -and save what we can -and move on.

-And we we figured out a way, -and it really was on the, -on the back of the community, -and the dedicated staff -that were there -!a lot of a lot of hard things, -a lot of really painful, -decisions as well there.

-But now they're -they're back on track.

-I don't know that I can say -that they're thriving, but, -I mean, it is a -!completely different situation -than it was.

-And I'm not -solely responsible for that.

-But, again, -I kind of helped navigate, -that, that tumultuous -summer for Cap radio.

-And then you -got the hell out of there -and came to Vermont excited.

-this opportunity -at Vermont Public came up.

-So, and really, like, -after that space, -after a little time -away from the cap -radio experience, -I was drawn to it.

-I was like, this really is.

-And I'm privileged -to be in this position.

-But this was the first job -I ever took because I wanted -I wanted it nothing like not -not because of anything else -other than feeling -like I'm a good fit for it.

-And I can see a solution -to the problems that exist.

-Yeah, I there's no place -I would rather be than, -at Vermont public -trying to solve the current -problems of public media -and Vermont public itself.

-and then you get here -and boom, -all of our federal -funding is cut.

-So there's something -the universe has planned -for you, sir, about, -like cleaning up messes.

-But one of them.

-is like -you know, Trump's had -!these attacks on public media, -he believed -that assumption that -that a lot of people believe -that we are leftist -and we are biased.

-he actually said that -we receive millions.

-From taxpayers -to spread radical woke -propaganda disguised as news.

-That was in the executive -order that came out in May.

-What was your reaction to -this news when it came down?

-I mean, -it wasn't exactly surprising.

-that framing is really tough -because our goals as, -journalists, and trying to, -share reliable information, -especially for our -local communities.

-That that really hurts, that, -you know, the president is, -sharing information.

-That's just not true.

-Now, what -what is true about that?

-And I don't want to dismiss -millions of people -across the country -who have that perception.

-And so perhaps the president -is reflecting -a perception -that a lot of people have.

-And I'm not trying -to diminish the view that -that they have in that sense.

-But what what really bothers -me is, -you know, this was targeted -at NPR and PBS.

-And again, I disagree -with that view in general.

-But put that aside for -!for a second, the funding that -we lost disproportionately -impacts local stations.

-And even more so, -local stations in rural -and low income areas.

-And so the idea of pointing -the guns at NPR and PBS -and doing damage -to NPR and PBS, -I mean, it will do that as -well as a as a result of the -the sort of ripple effect -!of of losing this funding, but -in fact, it it hurts rural -!and low income Americans most.

-And so when I saw that news, -that's, that's -where my mind went is -if this, you know, -if this sticks, -and if more people sort of -believe this angle -and buy into this angle, -America is worse off.

-And so I hate to be -sort of pessimistic, but, -you know, not not much has -changed in America like this.

-This feels like, -classic, DC elites -making choices -that are not what, -rural and low -income Americans really want, -It's a wild time.

Yep.

-Yeah.

-Can you explain to people -who maybe don't understand -what this like CPB -everybody's been hearing -CPB funding, CPB funding.

-What is the Corporation -for Public Broadcasting?

-Why does this funding matter?

-What does it do for us -and what does it do for us?

-It Vermont public, -but I mean writ large.

-So the Corporation for Public -Broadcasting was created, -during an act of legislation -in 1967, I believe it was, -a third party.

-!It's a it's its own nonprofit, -separate from the government.

-!It is not a government agency.

-And the idea was -it would take appropriations -from Congress, -and then disburse it -to, local institutions -across the country.

-Many, you know, university -licenses, some community -licenses, like us.

-But it would help to -make sure that we could reach -rural areas -across the country, -like one of the one of the -things that people talk a lot -about related to CPB -funding was 99% coverage -across the entire country.

-That is, unreal, -reaching 99% of every county, -in, in the country.

-So what would happen -is Congress would, -when they passed -the yearly budget, -they would include two years -of forward funding for CPB.

-So in FY 25, -!they would include the funding -for FY 26 and FY 27.

-And the reason -for that two year forward -funding was to try and reduce -the amount -of political influence, -on this money, -because they understood a -!lot of this was going to news.

-And so when it was created -again, it was it was intended -to reduce the amount -of political influence over -how this money was disbursed -and again, -given to this third party, -so it could be disbursed -in an objective way.

-So every year we apply -for this, money through CPB, -and then we get our -disbursements, you know, it, -typically hits the leaves -the Treasury and goes -to CPB sometime in the fall.

-And then we get about -November, -like 80 or 80% of it or so.

-And this is true of most, -stations across the country -for some stations -!in really rural markets, like, -you know, North Country -Public Radio, our neighbors, -across Lake Champlain -in New York, it accounts for, -I think it may be 15 -or so percent there.

-Our other neighbor, Mountain -Lake PBS across -Lake Champlain.

-It's 3,035% of their budget.

-So in some places, it's -a significant amount -of the budget.

-And that is to make sure -that, again, we can -we can execute this service -in really rural places.

-That was true at one point -here, in Vermont, I believe, -and we have done -such a good job, -in our community has done -such a good job -in supporting us -that it's about -10% of our budget.

-And that's -!we are a bit of an anomaly in, -in the network because -in terms of market size, -once you get above like 80, -it's really hard to count it.

-But we're like the 100th -market in the country -in terms of size.

-And yet we have an incredible -amount of support -from members and donors -and so on.

-So the fact that it only only -makes up 10% of our budget -or made up -10% of our budget, -again, is we're a little bit -of an outlier -given our market size.

-But that goes to, again, -supporting -all the different things -that we do, from, roles, -positions in our organization -to the technology -that it takes to support -something like the Emergency -Alert system, -which is something we haven't -talked about yet, but the -the backbone of emergency -alerts in, in the state.

-And this is again -true of most public media -across the country.

-we are the sort of backbone -of that for, for the state -and for all other entities -that, share those types -of alerts.

-And so it goes to supporting -all of this infrastructure, -from staffing -to technology to facilities -and so on, that allows us to, -to serve our community -with free, trustworthy, -all the all the buzzwords -about, buzzwords.

-Yeah, yeah.

-Can I ask you -how much money that is?

-Our 10%?

-It's about $2 million a year, -a little bit over that.

-And it's like every year -it changes a little bit.

-There's complex calculations -in terms -of how CPB -makes the disbursements.

-But we would have, this year, -we would have expected to get -!a little over $2 million, which -Hence the layoffs.

-Yeah, yeah.

-when I think about us, -I think about, -people's assumptions of us.

-I think about NPR -and its member stations -and the way the world -thinks about NPR and its -member stations in some ways.

-And yet I'm privy -to the way things really work -and really are.

-And, it's interesting.

-Ahead of this interview, -I asked some of my colleagues -reached out -to some other folks.

-I was like, -give me all the stereotypes -and like juicy assumptions -that we have about people -who work -at NPR or NPR stations -!or places like Vermont Public, -maybe some of them.

True.

-Maybe some of them not true, -but I wondered -if I could run them by you -and get your hot take -on some of them.

-Sure.

-Let's do it -of them -is that we're -all highly educated, -that we all have, -intellectual conversations -maybe over, like, lattes -on a regular basis -with our tote bags.

-And, we all hold these super -high degrees, -and That's -almost a prerequisite.

-In order to work here, -what's your hot take on that?

-I understand -where that comes from.

-I think we have been closely -coupled with academia.

-And I mean, out of, -educational TV and we do have -an educational mission.

-And so that's -very understandable.

-And I think maybe that's -where it comes from, -in all the organizations -I've worked.

-So that is not true -top to bottom.

-But I think there is, -an academic sensibility -that is pervasive -in, in public media.

-So that that part of -it is, is true regardless of, -you know, -the technical degrees -that one might, -might actually hold.

-do think it works against us -in, in some cases, -like having, -a staff full mostly of people -who have gone to -college is different than, -when you have folks -who haven't.

-And if you're trying to reach -everybody, -having those perspectives -are important.

-And, again, this is not true.

-Across the board, -top to bottom.

-But I think our, our academic -approach, or at least the, -the perception -of our academic approach, -is, is part of the reason -why we we've lost our federal -funding, why, -!a large part of the population -no longer even wants to tune -in, regardless of, of -when they listen, -!whether the they are believing -the stories -that we're telling, -they just already assume, -well, -that's that elitist stuff -that, I don't I -have no interest in.

-Right.

-And it's not for me.

-Yeah.

-That's -what some people think.

Yeah.

-Okay, here's another one -that we're all suburban -and urban dwellers -in places like cities -or progressive suburbs, -and that we don't live in -rural areas.

-Those of us who work -for public media.

-What's your hot take?

-Well, -we know that, in Vermont, -that's definitely not true.

-I mean, lots of people -live in Burlington, -but even Burlington -is a pretty small city.

-When you look at other cities -around the country.

-And Vermont is mostly -a rural state -some of the biggest impact -that public media has are -!in rural parts of the country, -in, in places -where there are tiny, tiny -populations where literally -!the only source of information -is the public radio -or public television station.

-And so that that concept -is absolutely not true.

-Maybe that's again, -part of the story -that we haven't told well -enough over the past year.

-I think we've been trying -to tell -that that part of the story.

-But, yeah, -our service in rural areas is -part of the magic part of the -the thing that I think -is, again, most impactful -about public media service.

-Yeah.

-And part of the point, right, -like part of the point -of the Corporation -for Public Broadcasting -is that it's public -broadcasting -accessibility -has been built into the model -right from the start.

-So I've always found that one -kind of interesting.

-I do think like, -urban city dwellers, -I don't know, I like a city.

-That's fine.

-But I grew up in rural -Vermont, -and I grew up listening to, -legacy Vermont Public Radio -and watching Vermont PBS.

-And we literally those were -we didn't -get any other channels.

-And there were people down -the road who had like, crank -radios who were using those -just so -they could get the weather.

-All right.

-This one, -which makes me laugh -because I feel like -I've been guilty of it.

-!But there's a lot of critique, -about our voice -and, like, -the way that we speak, it's -been called, like, -the NPR voice and assumptions -that, like, we're -kind of doing this put on, -that's not totally authentic -to who we are, -but we're trying to do it -so that we can, like, -I don't know, -I don't know what the but -what we could do with it, -like calm people -!down in some Asmr type of way.

-But, true or false?

-What do you think -about the way we speak?

-Again, I -this is one that I understand -where where it comes from.

-I think this is starting -to change, -which is a really good thing -in my opinion.

-think a lot of that comes -just out of the, -the news business in general -journalism where we are, -we are striving -to be so objective.

-And so we bring that even -to the voice that we present -in how, how we ask hosts, -and anchors to, to speak, -and, you know, I think in 20, -25, people are looking -to build a relationship -with people who they trust.

-And even outside of that, -just trying to allow people -to show up -as their authentic self, -is is not only the -right thing to do, -but I think it will build -more trust with the listeners -and viewers -who we're trying to reach.

-So, again, I understand where -that comes from.

-I think there is some truth -to it.

-But, it's starting to change, -and I think we ought -to lean into that even more.

-Yeah, agreed.

-I don't I think it's like not -!it's not a good representation -of like, humans.

-Like we all sound like that.

-It's a little -it can be a little robotic.

-I'm so excited.

-Whenever I hear a, the E, -for instance, on the radio, -or even a southern accent -or something that just like -the Vermont accent, -which is like -it's it's -so poignant to me -when when I'm -Vermonters on air, -I find myself leaning in more -because I can trust -that a real person -!is on the other end there.

So.

-And yet I speak like that.

-So I think -I'm part of the problem.

-I don't really know.

-But it it is.

-It's our job -to reflect our community.

-I mean, -!this is the beauty of the sort -of federated system we have.

-we should do our best to, -represent all the different -literal types of voices, -in the communities we serve.

-And I agree with you when I, -when I hear the variety of -voices, -not just here -in Vermont public, -but across -the network of stations, -that is the beauty -of our system.

-And it reflects, what?

-Maybe -maybe not all the beauty, but -but all of the, the, -you know, different, -and interesting -things that that is America.

-Yeah.

-Is this your real -!voice or is this a put on one?

-This is this -is maybe a little bit more, -corporate than normal.

-It's hard for me not to do it -when, I'm on camera, -quite honestly.

-But I would say -it's pretty close.

-I would love to find out -that off -camera -and outside of the office, -you just have this, like, -raging, -like, Mississippi accent -that's going on or something.

-That's, like, totally hidden -behind the scenes.

-My my wife Linda tells me, -she hears my New York accent -a little bit, -you know, like what?

-Without the proper tea -sounds, -and maybe, again, off -!camera, I might lean into that -a little bit more, -maybe a little bit of my, -sort of Guyanese upbringing, -plays in a little bit, -but I again, I, I, -I feel like this is to me, -this feels -like me most of the time.

-Okay.

-I guess the -last one I wanted to run by -you is this, assumption that -all of us working in public -media are left -leaning and liberal -and go.

-Yeah.

-I mean, -I know that to not be true -from again, all the -all the different -organizations -I've worked for, again -it's another one -where I understand where -that perception comes from.

-And this gets really, -really messy -because we, in a lot of, -like, take something -like climate change, -for instance.

-As soon as you say the word -climate change, -people are going to assume -you are, a progressive, -leftist, Democrat.

-Whatever.

-And so it's it's really tough -to navigate that one -because there are some facts.

-There are some truths -of the world that we -we are going to stand -by no matter what.

-But again, in our effort -to serve everyone, -we have to be cognizant that, -of that idea -that as soon as you venture -into, certain territory, -as soon as you assert -certain facts -that some people are -just going to tune you out.

-And I think -that's part of the challenge -that's ahead of us for, -for all of public media, -is figuring out -how we navigate this world -of alternate artifacts or, -you know, the way -I think about it -in terms of the -the problem we need to solve -to try and not to, -not give the audience -we're trying -to reach -the benefit of the doubt, -not to try and villainize -anybody, -but really just try -and approach it in pure.

-How do we -how do we solve this problem?

-And I'm only just -redefining the problem.

-So this is not the solution, -but it's kind of -that idea of like -if a tree falls in the woods -and nobody's around to hear -it, does it make a sound?

-And so we can stand -with facts.

-!But if if we put out the facts -and nobody believes it, -then what?

-What value -have we really produce?

-Right?

Have we, -have we done our job?

Yeah.

-I think like -so many social -issues and also like -as you call them, facts -!but also like science have all -just like merged into one -like politicize conversation.

-I've watched like, race -actually get politicized -over time -in such a massive way -It's it's -one of the -communication conundrums -I've come across in my life.

-And for for those of us -who work in communication -for a living, it's -it's really difficult -Absolutely.

-!And I think it only gets worse -from here, -until -!until we have better solutions -and we are going to be -a part of that solution.

-But the, Silicon -Valley effect, -the social media effect, -all of the tech giants have -built an incredible machine -that allows different people -to exist -in their own realities.

-And so forget -about alternative facts.

-!We have reality fragmentation.

-Someone will open up -their phone -!and scroll through it all day, -and they get a completely -different experience -than the person -sitting right next to them.

-And, that reality -fragmentation is causing, -I think the acceleration -of the problem -that you're highlighting.

-And that is also why, -you know, the defunding of -public media -is, is devastating.

-I mean, not -only do those products -and I mean the social media -or tech companies, -they turn the audience -into the products, right?

-They put advertising -in front of them.

-There's they're selling, -personal, data.

-So that's really bad.

-But also those things -cost money, right?

-Like a cell phone cost money.

-An internet plan.

-A cell phone -plan costs money.

-Radio.

-I guess -!you have to have a radio, but, -I mean, it is a free, like, -turn on the dial, -and it is free.

-And in in rural -parts of the country, -that has a real impact.

-And so not only like this, -again, these things -are all intertwined -from the technical delivery -of the thing -to how people perceive it -and how we shape it -and how how we consider, -you know, -someone who may be skeptical, -skeptical, -actually approaching it and, -consuming it.

-We are contending -with tech giants -who have endless budgets -and are only building -a better and better machine -every day -to keep people in their -their disparate realities.

-It feels pretty visceral -right now because again, -they've they've sort of, -targeted us specifically, -and that a doesn't feel good.

-But, -you know, in all honesty, -I think this is true -of many governments, -before this, -this administration.

-But it is again, par -for the course where, the, -the sort of most, -vulnerable among us -!are least cared for and end up -taking the brunt of changes -made at the highest level.

-You know, there have been a -lot of cuts -to federal funding, -since this administration -took office.

-And, you know, -I think about education.

-I think about the arts.

-What is it that makes -our federal funding, -specifically in public media, -not only difference to cut, -but like, -maybe even dangerous.

-What's what's that difference -there?

-That I don't know -about difference -because I think, a lot of, -a lot of that -funding is important.

-And, you know, -I don't want to try and, -judge, -one bit of it or another, but -what's dangerous about it -for for public media for us -is there is there are already -ripple effects of, -of losing this funding.

-So, there's going to be -a fragmentation -of this wonderful network -that we built.

-There is what, we call -a local national partnership, -which is true.

-You know, -we have a partnership -with NPR, PBS, -and we bring in that national -and global content.

-Meanwhile, -we have our own people -on the ground here -in the community.

-!And so we're we're giving sort -of a wonderful breadth -of information to people.

-And again, it's trustworthy.

-It's well-researched, -it's rigorous.

-And when the network starts -!to fracture and by fracturing, -I mean they're going to -be like, again, in a station -that gets 50% of its federal -funding is at some point -going to go out of business -unless they solve -that problem, -because that's -just too much money -to try and absorb -with efficiencies and so on.

-When they go out of business, -then a station like ours -who may weather that storm, -our fees go up -and if the fees go up -for everybody, -!then it becomes unsustainable.

-And then we have to make, -impossible choices.

-Like, -well, do we keep that -national programing -or do we keep -our local programing?

-And that is not -what we're here for.

-We're here for local service.

-But that national programing -is a key part of the mix.

-It's a key -!part of what people come to us -for and have, -come to expect from us.

-So there's that part of it.

-And there's another -really dangerous part of this -where, you know, the, -apparatus is sort of taken -over, we, -we trust our system -!because because of the, again, -the beauty and the -the frustration -of the federated system -is all of these -local institutions are making -editorial calls on their own.

-They're doing right -by their community.

-And because of this, there -will be more centralization.

-There'll be more, influence -from the government.

-Actually, -the state governments, -a lot of places -where their state funding, -that's going to be really, -really difficult to navigate.

-So we had this -I mean, it's it's -put together with, you know, -paperclips and bubble gum, -!but we had this infrastructure -that could support -this federated system -where local communities -are making -the decisions on their own.

-And now all of that is -is incredibly at risk.

-There are a lot of people -who are trying to solve -this problem.

-Stations ourselves -are figuring this out.

-NPR and PBS and, -lots of funders -who are who are coming -to the table now, -but I think a lot of people, -even people who voted -for the rescission -of our federal funding, -really underestimated -all of these ramifications.

-I'm curious now -!to talk about you and your job -here at Vermont Public.

-!what are your plans to keep us -healthy?

-My my view in leading teams -is to try and try -and give a vision, -try and give, a direction -for us to head -and with just enough -specificity -that it's easy to understand, -we can coordinate, -!especially at my level as CEO, -we can -coordinate across a pretty, -decently sized organization, -and lots of different teams -and lots of different -!individuals who have all kinds -of different tasks, -but not so specific -that I'm prescribing exactly -what the solution is.

-So I think that's a, -that's a key -element is to use harness -the sort of ultimate, -creative power of everybody -who's involved -in making this thing -what it is.

-And so to be a little bit -more specific, -part of that is having a plan -on the digital end of things.

-Part of that is having a plan -on the broadcast -side of things.

-And then part of it is, -well, this is a lot of change -to make at an organization.

-So how do we do that -in terms of -supporting our staff itself?

-And so putting just enough -meat on the bone again -to, to coordinate -all of these things -and then learning along -the way, you know, -maybe what I've sketched out -for the organization -isn't clear enough yet.

-And so okay, -then I'll take another -pass and say, -okay, let me, you know, -I venture into prescribing -solutions a little bit, -maybe it helps -kind of give a little bit -more directionality, -but it's it's -kind of reformulating the way -the organization -thinks about itself.

-So instead of -!being a broadcast institution, -we need to be a learning -organization.

-We need to be an audience -first organization.

-So our right now our number -one product tends to be -on radio broadcasts -and television broadcasts.

-But we need to think of -ourselves in the same way, -learn about our audience -in the same way that got us -to where we are -in the broadcast side, -on all of the other places -that that -we deliver our content.

-And I think if we are -dogged about that, -if we're able to really focus -on that, -!we'll be able to balance again -this sort of digital -and, and, broadcast -dance that, that we're doing.

-But also, like, on the ground -with our feet on the ground -at work right now.

-Like, circling -back to those layoffs, like, -would they have existed -if it weren't for -what's happening right now -with our cuts -to federal funding?

-And second part -to that question, -if if not like, -how does it feel to have, -you know, -the federal government -kind of meddling -in, in the flow of your job?

-So, I mean, -any any one -person let go is a travesty.

-Any any single person is -is devastating.

-But that is 14% of our -workforce.

-That's 14% less -available resources to do -!all of the service that we do.

-And the idea that, you know, -a single act of Congress, -that I happen to disagree -with now has a ramification -not only in how -I approach my job, -but the lives of, -a lot of people -who we cared about, -is it makes me angry.

-And I -have to be careful with that -because I don't think that -that necessarily helps -me navigate this moment.

-What I the responsibility -I have to the institution -and the team that remains.

-But, -yeah, -I mean, to -to be honest with you, -it makes me really, -really angry.

-But it is a part -of sustainability, -and we have to be -realistic about, -you know, what's -what's ahead of us -and kind of reformulate -our thinking -to the idea -that that $2 million -that we were expecting every -single year no longer exists.

-It evaporated.

-And so I take that, -as the opportunity -that it is -to rethink ourselves -!and to accelerate all of these -different challenges -that that we're up against.

-You know, there's -there's no joy in this crisis -that we're in that Vermont -public is in right now.

-!But I think we have to try and -look at, well, what are the -what are the positives -that we can take from this?

-What does this, allow us -to shed in terms -of assumptions -and previous ways of thinking -that have directed us -and sort of that -I wouldn't say painted us -into a certain corner, -but we just those are truths -that we held so dearly.

-And the world -is entirely different now.

-CPB going away is a seismic -shift in our industry.

-And again, there are -terrible effects of that.

-And we are feeling that here -at Vermont Public this week.

-But there are also -that opens up opportunities -that we cannot waste -in, trying to realize -as soon as we possibly can.

-Yeah.

-I mean, -speaking of like, -legacy issues, -I mean, one of them -that I do know to be true -is this, -overwhelming whiteness -that has existed, -at legacy NPR -And there have been -so many attacks on -Dei and identity as well from -this current administration.

-And here you are, a CEO -of color, at Vermont Public.

-!And I just wonder, how does it -how does it feel for you to -kind of hold your identity -!and also have it under attack, -I guess, at the same time, -and still have to push us -forward?

-Yeah, I, I, -I don't even know -where to begin -because it's such a, it's -such a complex topic.

-it's honestly -a lot of pressure to be, -a person of color, -in this industry, but, -I mean, -just in, in 2025 in general, -but trying to, again, -find a way to reach people -who see even -bringing up the topic of, -dei or even, you know, don't, -I know that's become -a bad word for some people -and all dirty words.

-Right?

Right.

-But even just the idea of, -!being being a person of color, -in, in and the -the what, -what that means -in terms -of my lived experience -and my experience -as an American, -and still not wanting to turn -away people who are not going -to approach the conversation -just because I bring that up.

-And that is, -that is really a mind -meld for me -because I'm not trying -to diminish my own identity -or anyone else who -who is a person of color -trying to do this work.

-But again, that's -that's the reality in 2025.

-And for us to have the impact -we want to have, -we got to find some way -through that, and that, -I don't have the answer -today, but, -I think that's part -!of the challenge that we have.

-And part of, -you know, the motivation -for me, part of the idea of, -what's one of the things -that fires -me up in the morning in, -in not having the solution -to that yet?

-I like I like -really challenging problems.

-And so as much as that -is a pain for me, -because it is an identity -based thing.

-It's also, -I think, a really, really -interesting challenge.

-What is the goal with Vermont -!public right now when it comes -to diversity initiatives?

-And how does that affect -what we put out?

-I think it starts -with inclusivity.

-So the way I view -I mean, again, taking apart -the bad word of diversity, -equity and inclusion, -inclusivity -is something that we do.

-Diversity -I think is sort of the, -the intended outcome of, -of being inclusive.

-But we need to do it in a way -that is structural.

-I think a lot of the -approaches, and, you know, -I'm grateful for the movement -that that moves in -any of this kind of stuff -ahead.

-But sometimes the approach -can be, tokenism, -or a, virtue -signaling or whatever, -!you know, those types of ideas -versus really -changing an organism -at its base structure.

-And so that's what -we're going to be doing at -Vermont Public.

-!We're not where we need to be.

-But these this is a part -of, of our strategy -going forward is to make sure -that inclusivity is -baked into everything we do.

-I say sort of stitched into -all of the different things -that we do from, -how we operate as a business -to, the content we create.

-But I think that will look -different than maybe -what, some common conceptions -are about to die.

-Now, we also have to be -mindful of the other -executive orders, -and sort of federal law, -and how we navigate -all of those things, -because it's -not just our federal funding.

-We have FCC license -to take care of.

-We have our nonprofit status -to take care of.

-And all of those things, -I think are in question now -when you operate -what was known, again, -commonly known as dei.

-But I don't think, -you know, there's any -there's any danger -!in continuing to move forward.

-The idea of having -an inclusive workplace -that strives to reflect the -the makeup of its service -area, at the very least, -in terms of diversity.

-!But it also, I think, accounts -for some of the things -that have been lacking, like, -ideological -diversity, -and things like that.

-But but again, -I think it starts with -and this is why, -as an organization, -one of the values -that we've adopted -is inclusivity, -because that is the thing -that we can do -to get ourselves -to the diversity -that I think we hope to see.

-And the, other sort of -beneficial effect is equity.

-And ultimately, again, -allowing people to show up -as who, -as who they really are, -and honoring people's lived -experience while continuing -to deliver all the wonderful, -excellent services that -that we deliver.

-So your, your, -your ideal -is ID instead of D, I, -And so do you believe that -inclusivity -I mean because these, -these issues that we have are -systemic right.

-Systemic racism, systemic -ableism, systemic racism.

-And you're talking about -changing -changing something -at its like core function.

-do you believe -that inclusivity will solve -for these systems that have -just been so archaic?

-That's that's -that's my approach.

-I can't promise -you it'll work, -!but that's my bet in terms of, -a different approach -than some other things -that haven't -yet changed these structures.

-And again, I'm not trying to, -to be disrespectful -of all the great -thinking that has gone into -the approaches -we've seen so far.

-But they they aren't -!really working as intended and -some work better than others.

-But on the whole, -what we've tried -as a society -has gotten us into -the conundrum -that we're in in 2025.

-So I think it's a way -we can navigate -all the different challenges -we're trying to navigate, -be truthful about who we are -and do this work earnestly, -and try to change the -the core structures -of the system -!to deal with all of the other, -structural injustices -that we see in society.

-And so, just like the -second part of that question, -I just will put to you again, -these mandates -!that are coming down the pike, -the changes in Dei -and the way you're talking -about changing it, -at Vermont Public, -how does it affect -what we put out in the world?

-Do you think?

-I mean, I hope -we only ever become -!more inclusive in our service.

-And the types of communities -we serve, how we serve -different communities.

-But I at the same time, -we are we are protected -by the First Amendment.

-And so there should be no -!limits on the types of stories -we tell and our story choices -and so on.

-So that part of it, -I hope, I mean, that's -that's the hill -I'm willing to die -on, you know, -the freedom of speech -and the freedom of choice -we have as creators -to tell the stories -that we need to tell.

-Man, if if it comes to that, -then, yeah, I don't know.

-Then then I maybe maybe, -we need another interview.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

-Interview part two.

-Yeah.

-Okay.

Do you ever have days -that you're -just like, I don't know, -CPB funding cuts?

-Sure.

-But also like, -people are being disappeared -right now in this country.

-certain rights -!are being taken away like it's -it is such a time for change, -as I've said.

-And that is -that is a lot of our work.

-Yeah.

I the sort of political -atmosphere, -is really worrying.

-!And that certainly contributes -to, to burnout -also because -as part of my job, -I kind of have to keep up -!with the news cycle and so on.

-But it's it's invigorating -in a certain way, -to know that the, the trouble -that our industry is facing, -to know how bifurcated, -how divided -our country has become -and what our role should be, -what our role is in being, -centering institution -in connecting people, -in Vermont, that I think is -just such a beautiful thing.

-And so when I'm really tired, -when I'm really frustrated, -when I am -afraid of what is happening, -I tend to come back to that.

-And I tend to also -really rely -on the passion that I see in -everybody who does this work.

-And I mean specifically here -at Vermont Public.

-And no disrespect -to our colleagues, -across the country, but, -it is a it is a -really magical thing to see.

-A lot of our, -our work -come together -in the way that it does -in the midst -of all of this stuff.

-So the -the impact that we can have -and the change -that we can make -in this really chaotic world -and the people who do it -and the expertise and passion -that they bring, -those two things -combined honestly, -like whenever -my battery is empty, it -recharges me pretty quickly.

-I think it takes, to do -this job.

-It's almost like an obsessive -compulsive, passionate, -just like desire to inform, -serve and make change to -to do this work.

-And that is, I think, -what is most haunting to me -!about the 13 of our colleagues -that we lost the other day -is that a lot of those people -felt that same way, -like they were doing this -because it was in their soul, -right in their blood.

-And to have this order -kind of come down the pike -!and just completely obliterate -that passion -or snuffed that, -that passion out.

Right.

-On the spot, like -at least in your daily work.

-I mean, so many of us feel -so lucky -to get to do this work -because it's a place to -to put all of that -where the rest of the people -in our lives -just think that we're like -nutty over thinkers, right?

-On a regular basis.

-I guess I just wanted to end -by asking you, -do you have any final words -for those -!who have lost their their jobs -right now?

-Those who are, you know, -!feeling aimless or maybe like, -I can't believe it was me -or what do I do -with all of this, -this grit -and this passion now?

-And am -!I still a value in these ways?

-What do you say -to some of those folks, -including -the 13 folks that we lost?

-I, I certainly hope, folks, -in, in our industry -and at Vermont Public -understand that they -they are still a value.

-You know, it, it is, it is -a job that requires passion -and dedication -in terms of what -we were just talking about.

-And I think it -it is part of the magic -that is public media.

-You feel it in, -in the things that we create.

-And at the same time, -I think it is also like the, -the double edged sword of -that is -your identity is so closely -tied to this work.

-And I know.

-Yeah.

-And I know a lot of people, -like, that's, -that's -how they view this work.

-And I know that, losing your, -your job in public media is, -extra devastating -because of that close tie.

-And, I really hope -folks are able to see -that they are fully formed -human beings -outside of this work.

-And I know that that doesn't -make it, any, -any less painful, -any less impactful, -for folks who have lost -their, their livelihood.

-And that is, again, -just absolutely devastating.

-But I would hope as a, -as a part of the process, -folks -are able to find something -outside of the work, -whether it's the next job -or something else, -that, you know, allows them -to, to be the human -being that they are.

-And, you know, -even in that answer, -I feel like it's it's, -you know, -there are so many things -that I am overlooking, -being disrespectful of -and so on because of the seat -!that I sit in and the decisions -Yeah.

-The first thing -that comes to mind for me -is that.

-I will miss them -dearly.

-Certainly changed my life -working with all of them.

-!Thanks so much for joining us.

-If you want to continue -!to be a part of the homegoings -family, stay in touch -at homegoing.co -and subscribe -to the homegoings podcast -wherever you listen.

-Take good care.

-NPR and PBS have increasingly -become radical -left wing echo chambers -for a narrow -audience.

-PBS news -is not just less leaning, -but it is actively using -taxpayer funds to push -some of the most radical left -positions, -all things are considered.

-!Yet their history of political -bias has shown that -there are a number of things -they have not considered.

-Thanks.

-Thanks, PJ.

That's it for me -for questions.

-I always ask -at the end of each interview.

-Is there anything -!that I didn't ask you that you -wanted to make sure to say?

-I hate to be the the CEO.

-But it really do it.

-You've been into it.

-You've been itching to -this whole time.

-Go for it.

-And maybe I covered this -as the course -of our conversation, -but this is Right on.

-Awesome.

Thanks for day.

-That's all for me.

-All right, we're done.

-Thank you.

-Mike, -are you guys itching to get -in there for Vermont -this week?

-We shot that already.

-You already did it -earlier.

Okay, great.

-All right.

Great.

-Right.

-Okay.

-Sounds good.

Thank you.

Myra.

-Yeah.

Before you start, -you take it off.

-I'm just going to give you, -my spiel, -which is that typically, -you know, we do an artist -portrait or a, portrait -with art for the people -that we interview.

-And Michael sometimes -weave in some other shots, -if you have any, like, -old photos of you -at KPCC or any of these.

-These.