>>Good morning and welcome to Global Perspectives, I'm David Dumke.

There's been much discussion about the political status of Puerto Rico, especially since the devastating Hurricane Maria in 2017.

Toda we joined by two special guests, one who advocates for Puerto Rican independence and one who advocates for Puerto Rican statehood.

We will start today by asking a question of Alberto Medina, who is an advocate of independence.

Why independence for Puerto Rico?

>>Yeah, well, thanks so much for having us, David.

And, you know, I think first and foremost, because Puerto Rico is a nation, and having a sovereign country of your own is the, I think, natural and necessary political manifestation of that nationhood is what, ensures that a people which Puerto Ricans are, can, can govern themselves as they as they see fit.

You know I think there's also important cultural and economic questions when when we talk about independence, you know, the assimilation that would be, I think, required and natural, you know, if Puerto Rico ever became a U.S.

state versus the the ability to preserve our language, our culture, our traditions, you know, the things that, again, make us a people and and a nation that I believe at least and independence supporters believe can best be preserved through through independence.

There's also important economic considerations about how to make sure we build an economy that works for us, for our circumstances, for our people, and not necessarily for the benefit of, you know, the the overall, you know, United States.

And then finally I think an important thing to, to consider is just the political reality of this issue, the fact that statehood hasn't happened for 128 years.

There are, you know, serious, serious political impediments to it in the U.S.

Congress.

I, for one, a tired of waiting for something that has not happened and and may never happened.

And that I see it's very difficult to happen to get the necessary votes for statehood in the U.S.

Congress.

I do think we could get those votes for independence, and that it is the the just and the also politically feasible path to finally end this colonial relationship after 128 years.

>>So we are also joined by Martin Rivera, who is an advocate for statehood.

So I want you to make your cas and why Puerto Rican statehood is the best path.

>>Of course.

Well, again, we, as Alberto mentioned we've been, U.S.

territory for over 127 years.

We've been U.S.

citizens for 109 years.

We just celebrated the 109th anniversary on March 2nd.

And the reason why the Puerto Rico Statehood Council and I believe in statehood is because the people of Puerto Rico have continuously decided to leave the current territory status and voted in favor of statehood four times in this century.

Each time they have rejected this current status and the the support for state has continued to grow.

Additionally, the main reason why we want to have statehood for Puerto Rico is to provide that equal, equal rights for the people of Puerto Rico that they so adamantly deserve.

After 127 years of being a U.S.

territory.

And again we've served in every military conflict of the United States since the First World War.

Even right now, as Puerto Rico is the, tip of the spear and in conflicts abroad.

We still have no voice in the house.

Well, we have a non-voting member in the house.

No voice at all in the Senate.

And we can't vote for a commander in chief.

So despite the contributions, the continuous contribution that we've done, not just in armed services, the arts, sciences, we are still treated unequally and as second class citizens solel for residing in the territory.

We have seen progress happen in the last few sessions of Congress, given the the plebiscite votes that occur on the island, but the reality still stands that, that dimension, the we're a nation, but in reality we're an unincorporated territory.

And the plenary power of Congress.

This unequal status cannot remain for the people of Puerto Rico to finally prosper, and for Puerto Ric to finally achieve sovereignty.

There's only two pathways for that.

Either Puerto Rico become a state with dual sovereignty, or it becomes an independent nation, with or without that compact of free association.

But either way, remaining in the territories of which we are now, it's unsuitable and it's unattainable.

It's especially given all the contributions we've done, and the people of Puerto Rico should be given that binding vote so they can decide for themselves.

>>There's a couple of elements of this debate, of course, that you you both agree on.

One is tha the current status is untenable.

And second, that the people of Puerto Rico themselves should decide on what their future is.

So what are the objections among American mainlanders to changing Puerto Rico's status?

>>Well, one thing unfortunately that happens, especially in DC, that this issue does get into a partisan lens and this is an issue of civil rights for the US citizens of Puerto Rico, whether they're Democrat or Republican, should not come into play, but in Congress, that that aspect does come in to some conversations we've seen during the last few years that, for example, the Puerto Rico Status Act, which in the 117th Congress got unanimous support from Democrats.

We got like, 16 Republicans in, which was miraculous, I say, because there was only a week left in that session and they were going to take over the chamber.

And still we got that bipartisan support.

Last Congress in the 118.

The bill got reintroduced in the Senate.

It got introduced, and it had 27 co-sponsors, more than any support for any binding legislation to resolve Puerto Rico status.

However, the session did end.

And at that time, because the bill didn't get enacted into law, then Governor of Puerto Rico Pedro Pierluisi decided to take the Puerto Rico Status Act as a template.

And he had another nonbinding plebiscite on the island, of which 58.6% of the island chose statehood as their preferred feature option.

>>Alberto, I imagine tha you don't quite agree with with with your colleague on on that point.

>>Well I certainly agree with the part about the partisan challenges, and it's why I say that, you know, I find it very, very difficult to believe, and I would venture to say impossible, that you're going to get support for statehood.

You know, in Congress when you require 60 votes in the Senate and when the entire Republican Party, you know, is essentially convinced that Puerto Rican statehood would mean more Democrats in Congress, and that is an outcome that they cannot accept.

And they have, you know, said so repeatedly.

And there's, of course, other considerations about, you know, the the additional, federal aid that would go to Puerto Rico if it wer if it were a state in terms of, you know, wha I think the actual impediments are, though, and something that I think Martin and I agree on, it's just the fact that this issue was not very salient in, in US politics and U.S.

public life and in U.S.

public conversation.

I'm very gla we're having this conversation now to hopefully try to break through that a little bit.

But most people are not thinking about Puerto Rico.

I think that's, you know, partly a consequence of the colonial relationship itself.

You know, there was a great book by a professor, Daniel McGuire called How to Hide an Empire, and that is what the U.S.

has done with its colonies, because it has kept them in this shameful, you know, political subordination for in the case of Puerto Rico, you know, nearly 128 years.

And then I think with that, with not thinking about it a lot, with not knowing about it a lot comes also this mistaken assumption that the United States is kind of doing Puerto Rico a favor, right?

The US is very rich and powerful.

Puerto Rico is very small and poor.

Surely it can only be helpful to Puerto Ricans, right, for the U.S.

to to still be in charge or to have some kind of political relationship.

But 40% of Puerto Ricans live in poverty, including nearly 60% of Puerto Rican children.

You know, you have enormous income inequality, enormous socioeconomic precarity.

You know, the lights aren't on a lot of the time.

You have all these massive problems with with power outages, with basic infrastructure.

Some of that blame for that you know, should lay at the feet of Puerto Rico's local government.

But I think much of it can be, traced to the colonial relationship.

So I always say, if this current colonial arrangement between the US and Puerto Rico is supposed to be helping Puerto Ricans, but 60% of Puerto Rican children live in poverty, it's not doing a very good job of doing what it's supposed to do.

>>So I want to ask you both, since you're both passionate about your point and actually you don't disagree on many of the problems and diag for in the position of statehood.

I want to ask you first, Martin, what are some of the negative feedbac you get on the statehood issue?

And then I'm going to ask you the same, Alberto on the independent side.

>>So when it comes to and Alberto mentioned it is usually the partisan divide.

And that's the issue that and als what Alberto mentioned is that sometimes this issue gets overlooked.

It gets, taken for granted, especially the people of Puerto Rico.

And sometimes that's understandable given the multitude of issues that members of Congress face each day.

But it's an issue that impacts their own constituents.

Again, we forget that close to 6 million Puerto Ricans live stateside.

That's more than the island, which has 3.2 million U.S.

citizens.

And how and that's wh we're having this conversation, because we need to start.

Whether you stand for statehood, independence, or even some peopl who wish to remain a territory, we need to start having these conversations to continue the momentum that we've had the last two sessions of Congress, to take into account the votes that have happened in the island, so we can actually get this to the finish line.

One misconception that happens is that people think that Puerto Rico becomes a state.

It will be an automatic two Democratic senators.

So that's one been one political issue that we've dealt with in Congress.

But again, the reality is tha this is a nonpartisan issue of civil rights.

And also in in all reality, Puerto Rico is not solely a, Democrat or Republican territory.

And if it becomes a state, I assume it would become more of a swing state, as Florida used to be about ten, 15 years ago.

So there is play for either Republicans or Democrats to garner support from potential candidates on the island.

But that's one reality.

The other thing that we have to show is the contribution that Puerto Ric or it contributes, not just to the armed services, to the arts, but also including the U.S.

Treasury.

Most people don't know that Puerto Ricans do pay, pay taxes into the U.S.

Treasury.

We pay into payroll tax.

So FICA, Social Security Medicare, we pay for those taxes for my payroll.

And also if we make if you're in Puerto Rico and you make your income from a source in the United States, from outside of Puerto Rico, you have to pay federal income tax.

We actually provide more tax than, I believe, eight states, but we're equivalent to Alaska and Vermont, and we have a population greater than 20 other states.

So again, after I say over 12 years, we are in the 128th year as a as Alberto mentioned, it's time for the U.S.

Congres to actually move on this issue, to see this not through a partisan lens, but a civil rights lens.

Given all the sacrifices and contributions that our people have done to the time that we've been a U.S.

territory and been U.S.

citizens.

>>What are some of the points against independence?

>>Yeah, and going off of what Martin was saying, you know, I think there's an assumption that some people, especially folk on the more kind of liberal side of the ideological spectrum, that to support statehood has to be inclusive of Puerto Ricans and to, you know, want to honor all those contributions that that Martin mentioned, which are, of course, true.

But Mexican-Americans have made incredible contributions to U.S.

society and Chinese Americans and Filipino Americans and every other kind of immigrant that, you know, has lived in this country for sometimes hundreds of years.

And as far as I know, there's no movement to make Mexico or China or the Philippines the 51st state.

So I don't think it requires wanting Puerto Rico to be a state to care about and honor the Puerto Rican people That's the first thing I'd say.

You know, the second big piec is this idea that Puerto Ricans simply don't want independence.

And it's true.

I'll acknowledge that historically, statehood has had more support.

It probably still has more support now, but it's getting a lot closer.

You know, in the last vote, where nearly 60% of Puerto Ricans voted for statehood, more than 40% voted for some form of sovereignty.

And that is massive, massive growth in the last couple of years an or even the last decade, as you mentioned, you know, Hurricane Maria, I think was a big a big turning point for that.

So while it used to be the case that independence was this kind of hyper minority position in Puerto Rico, it's no longer the case.

And it's especially no longer the case among Puerto Rico's youth, who, according to polling, you know, more than half now, now support some form of sovereignty.

And then the last thing that I think and in many ways is the most important thing is this assumptio that independence would just be an economic disaster for for Puerto Rico, that I understand where this comes from, because, again, you see Puerto Rico now, so poor, so precarious, so vulnerable, and you think, well, if it's if it's that way under U.S.

rule, how could it be better without a rich and powerful nation like the United States?

But the kind of flaw i that argument is inherent in it.

You are looking at wha Puerto Rico has been under U.S.

rule, which does not necessarily dictate what it can be as an independent nation.

Yes.

You know, obviously under independence, after a period of transition Puerto Rico would lose out on, you know, some of its federal aid and federal programs.

But independence would also give Puerto Rico the powers of political and economic sovereignty to set its own fiscal and monetary policy, to control its own exclusiv economic zone in the Caribbean, to sign trade deals, to se duties and tariffs, and be able to protect its industries, to expand its exports.

So statehood, you know, ha some pros and cons economically.

Independence also has some pros and cons economically.

And the few economists who have looked at this issue, if you ask them point blank, can Puerto Rico survive or even thrive as an independent nation?

The answer is yes.

It's not a guarantee, of course, because nothing's guaranteed in life.

But it is possible.

>>So I want to ask you a point, following up on what you said, Martin, because you mentioned the population and a 3.2 on the island, but more in the diaspora than around the island.

So in determining Puerto Rico's future, are those opinions the same of those who are on the mainland or those who are still in the diaspora or those who are on the island?

>>It mainly varies as to like when the migration from the island happened.

So a lot of people came to like New York, Chicago, and in the 20s and 40s, and they have a different mentality as to let's say the people who came right after Hurricane Maria and came to Central Florida.

So it's a bit of a mixed bag just as it is in the island.

But we do see that the support for statehood is growing.

So is that support for independence, because at the end of the day, the people in Puerto Rico are seeking those sovereignty options that Alberto mentioned, where you can only get to statehood or independence.

People realize that the current unincorporated territory status is colonial at the end of the day, and the people of Puerto Rico continuously ask and are demanding for Congress to move.

We just need to get that binding resolution through.

And that's where the diaspora comes into play.

Because again, we're headed to an election year, and the constituents of those members here can actually be a voice to help the people in Puerto Rico get that binding vote so they can finally resolve this once and for all.

So while there might be, as me and Alberto, we might disagree as to the end result, what we are pushing Congress to do is to finally act, to finally resolve this issue so that Puerto Ric can actually prosper and thrive and have that sovereignty it needs.

Alberto mentioned that right now.

So independents did gain second place in the gubernatorial race.

Third place by a good margin was the peopl who support the current status.

Statehood itself garnered more support than any political candidate running for the for any elected office in Puerto Rico.

That's more than the statehood governor, more than the current resident commissioner who supports the current status.

Where we're at right no is that we're garnering support to move away from the current status, but we still have to do a lot more work to inform members of Congress, inform staff and the general public especially here in the diaspora, so they can push their own members to actually act on this issue, because they are the ones.

They're the constituent of the people who have the vote.

Because right now we have that one non-voting member that unfortunately cannot vote outside of committee.

>>So I want to ask you both quickly, becaus we're running out of time here.

Does it have to take a disaster like a Hurricane Maria, to actually bring Puerto Rico into the headlines and to the conscious o political thinkers in Washington who are not familiar with the island, who don't necessaril have a direct connection to it?

>>I not necessarily Maria.

Maria did bring the issue up, front and center.

I well, I was working in Congress for then Congressman Darren Soto when Hurricane Maria was actually, actually occurred.

And I saw firsthand the discrepancy that you get from being in a state and being in a territory at the same time, we had Hurricane Irma here in Florida, Hurricane Harvey in Texas, and we had Hurricane Maria and Irma hit hit Puerto Rico.

But within two weeks here in Florida, things were back to normal.

Similarly with with Hurricane Harvey in Texas, Puerto Rico still recovering to this day from Hurricane Maria.

And it did bring this issue up, up front and center, which led to the two previous plebiscites before the 2024 plebiscite in 2017 than the one in 2020.

And the 2020 plebiscite carried so much support that it led to two bills being introduced in Congress, which is the Puerto Rico Self-Determination Act by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Nydia Velasquez, and the Puerto Statehood an Mission Act by Congressman Soto.

After a year of negotiations and two legislative hearings on those bills came about the Puerto Rico Status Act, which even had, informal hearing in Puerto Rico.

So the people would have a say as to the options presented on that bill.

Again, that bill would have been binding.

So it wouldn't have had to have come bac to Congress for any future vote, except if there was, for a Compact of Free Association of the People of Puerto Rico shows that.

But that was the the success of that bill, that it finally gave constitutional viable options to the people of Puerto Rico, outside of the territorial class and whatever the people of Puerto Rico decided it would have been enacted because they had mechanisms for it to be self-executing.

>>And your your answer, the same question, does it does it take a catastrophe to get the attention of of Washington?

>>Unfortunately, I think sometimes it does.

And, you know, I think that speaks to to what I was saying before about how this is an issue that is so, so out of sight, out of mind, not just to American politicians, but ofte to the to the American public.

So, you know, what's the solution to that?

I really think it's for every single person, you know, watching this show, Puerto Rican or not, to to start assuming this as a, as a political responsibility and to take this on as a political issue.

I hear fro a lot of people who say, well, I'm not Puerto Rican, so why would I get involved in this?

It's not my job is for the, you know, people of Puerto Rico to decide.

But if you are American then actually it's your country.

It's your government that has kept Puerto Rico in this, state of political, you know, oppression and subordination for, again, you know, over 127 years.

So don't take up this issue because you are not Puerto Rican, but because you are American and it's your country doing this to my nation.

If not country, although we often call Puerto Rico a country too.

So, you know, it really is up to all of us.

And I really invite and encourage anyone who cares about political justice to to learn more about this issue and to take action, because it is absolutely appropriate to do so whether you're, you know, Puerto Rican or not.

This is a colonial relationship that should have ended a long time ago and will only end when the American public, does a lot of that work that Martin was saying of, you know, calling their members of Congress of, you know, actually expecting their politicians to have a position because Puerto Ricans can't do it.

You know, they don't have the political leverage.

They don't have voting representation in Congress.

They don't have a vote for President.

>>Alberto, Martin, thank you for joining us.

You're both pushing for change the political statu and wish you the best of luck.

>>Thank you.

>>Thank you so much.

>>And now we'll be joined by Doctor Fernando Rivera, the Director of the UCF Puerto Rico Research Hub, who has some findings about Puerto Rican attitudes.

And we'll continue the conversation with this.

Doctor Rivera, you have heard from our guests talk about these issues, and you have been conducting a series of polls over the last couple of years about Puerto Ricans living in Florida.

Their opinions on some of the key issues, including the political status issue.

Do your findings match what what our guests were saying?

>>Well, first of all, thanks for having me.

And you're correct.

Yeah.

We've been doing some polls for Puerto Ricans in Florida, and we always ask the political status, you know, what will be the preferences out here?

And alway there was a running assumption that statehood was the preferred one.

But we seen as we continue to poll more people, there's sort of a shift in the opinion from statehood to some degree of, support for independence.

But surprisingly, this last, survey, we found that the most support for was for the Commonwealth, which is, the current status out there.

So we continue to see some evolution in terms of what are the the preferred status for the Puerto Ricans here, in Florida.

>>Do some of those changing numbers respect some some perhaps some hesitation, especially when the politic in the United States become so contentious over what directions Puerto Ricans should turn?

>>We can always imply you know, in terms of, you know, there's always differences in in sample size, the age of the sample and the preferences that people have.

But, we did a post electio result and it's been, quite a, a year in terms of the policies have been implemented.

And obviously they're open reaction to not having Puerto Ric as a state, and has been an open and public policy positio for the current administration.

>>So from wha Alberto and Martin implied too about the differences between the Puerto Rican diaspora and on the island varies by age, among other things.

And when they they moved to the mainland or back to Puerto Rico, does that-- >>Yeah, we're we're finding you know, we were a little bi oversimplistic in assuming that, you know, most Puerto Ricans that came from Puerto Rico and moved to Florida, prefer the statehood option.

But we've seen that, you know, there's some more, diversity in that opinion, as we see during our polling and, you know, a little bi more support for independence, that continue to do to do well there and even support for the current, statu quo that we have on the island.

>>One of the questions we did not ask the guest, but I ask you, based on your findings, is how Puerto Ricans living in the U.S.

mainland, especially in Florida, where you've you've monitored the most closely how they identify themselves politically.

Because I think one misperceptio that a lot of American politics have Puerto Rico is the parties on the island are different than the parties on the mainland.

>>No, absolutely.

And and basically on the island, the parties are base from the state to the statehood Commonwealth, and independent position.

It's not Democrat.

It's not Republican, which a little bit different from the mainland out here.

So those politics are very different out here.

And that also impact when people come from Puerto Rico and they face politics here.

It impacts a little bit because it's not the same out there.

You could build the same, ballot just for all the candidates and all the position for that same political party, which is a little bi different here, because you have a coalition of people like right now we have a resident commissioner that is a Democrat, and we have a governor that is a Republican in Puerto Rico.

So those things do not apply necessarily the same.

And when we talk about Puerto Rico politics and Puerto Rico politics here in the United States.

>>An you and the previous governor, Puerto Rico was was a membe of the current governor's party in Puerto Rico, bu not her party in the mainland.

Correct?

>>And that's been so it was it was a switcheroo in the sense that the resident commissioner now is the governor just Republican?

The governor used to be Democrat.

Another resident commissioner is a Democrat.

>>So you see some of these these voting patterns, in Florida too, or Puerto Ricans.

It was actually relatively close, last time between between Trump and Harris, among the Puerto Ricans in Florida, although they traditionally have leaned towards the Democratic Party.

Do you agree with the with with what was said earlier?

By the guests it that these voters, it's not determined where they would go in a national election if they were part of a Puerto Rican state.

>>Yeah.

No, that that would be that would be a little bit different in terms of that.

I think, you know, like we talked before and the the survey shows economic issue were the driving force out here who made the best bet in terms of that.

And but we did actually ask you know, how important is sort of the political status to really show support, for a candidate.

And it show that it matters fo this segment of the population.

So the Puerto Rican status continues to be somethin that local politicians here in the United States are going to cater to, because it's important to the voter here and the voters back home.

>>So when we're talking about Puerto Rican voters and how how they vote their voting behavior, obviously they're living here.

They're in Florida, they have day to day issues.

So most of the issues you monitored, or as I understand it, have to do with health, education and day to day life issues, correct?

>>Economic issues, you know, cost of living, housing, health care all the things that are there.

Most of the members of, of the Florida community are going through.

And are worrisome about.

>>On the question of, o political status of the island, are those removed from Florida base Puerto Rican voters when they vote in U.S.

elections, or are they thinking about how it applies to the the island?

>>Well, I think that, you know, there were concerns, especially after Hurricane Maria, about the the reconstruction.

And obviously there's a lot of concern about the electric grid and how slow is moving in, you know, and more and more Puerto Rico and the demographics are becoming older.

So there's a lot of people out here, if you look at the the medium age and the medium age out here is in the 30s or so for Puerto Ricans here.

So they have a lot of worrie about what's happening in Puerto Rico in terms of the status about in terms o about the economic development and the conditions on the island cause they have families, they have family back in Puerto Rico.

And that's an issue of concern for them, because it's an everyday type of situation that they have to deal with.

>>So one final question, because we're running out of time and I know you're a scientist, so you don't like guessing, but I'm not going to have you guess none.

Nonetheless, a lot of it seems to me based on on this conversation today we've had with both our guests and you, a lot of the Puerto Rican voters, when thinking about Puerto Rico's status, they're kind of and you also mentioned that their opinion have kind of shifted over time.

Is some of that shift attributed really fear about what might happen if we pursue independence or what might might happen if we pursue statehood as opposed to it may not be perfect, but but the commonwealth status is the devil we know.

>>Well, I mean, there's some implications right there in terms of, you know, that there' been sort of the perception of, you know what's happening in the country right now in terms not only of the economic type of issues, but, you know, treaties that have been broken, you know, since, civil rights that have sort of been broken as well, promises that are not kept.

And I get sometimes people fear the unknown.

And I think that that's at a position that maybe some, some people are sort of re-estimating the relationship and say, well, it's better to have what we have and, and keep what we have instead of going for something that is very unknown and there's no clear path for it.

>>I've got one, one final question.

I know I said we're running out of time, but we've had many conversations before.

You've been on the show before and Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rican voters in Florid have supported both Democratic and Republican candidates.

What is the basis of that support?

I know in the past you've said sometimes it's language, sometimes it's it's other things.

What are some of the the issues that resonate with voters?

>>Well, I think right now is economic issues.

And I think in the in the last election, the Republican Party did speak very clearly and simply about those economic positions.

In terms of that, there were some other issues.

You know, we cannot assume that immigration is going to be automatically and each of the Puerto Ricans are going to go through that.

It might be different from other Latino Hispanic groups out here.

In terms of that.

I think, you know, politicians know that, Puerto Rican voters are important.

Obviously the state hav shifted to the Republican side, but stil they're looking for that support because you never know in a in a close race, that might be the difference between winning or losing, making sure that you touch up on those issues that are important to the Puerto Rican people living here in Florida.

>>Fernando, thank you fo joining us today.

>>Thank you.

>>And thank you for joining us.

We'll see you again next week on another episode of Global Perspectives.