LAURA: Good morning everyone.

This morning, we're  talking about the Clean and Green Retail Ordinance   which the Albuquerque City Council passed back  in 2019.

The ban took effect in January, 2020,   but it was suspended a few months later because of  the pandemic and then reinstated last summer.

I'm   here this morning with Albuquerque Councilor Brook  Bassan.

Thank you for joining me this morning.

BROOK: Thank you for having me.

LAURA: So, you're interested in, you'd like   to repeal this ordinance.

Can you talk about why?

BROOK: Sure.

You know, with the pandemic happening   and with the pause that we had with the  emergency orders, the need for us to make sure   that people were safe from the spread of viruses  and masks being used in social distancing and   store closures, in addition to so many other  things that I learned through the pandemic…   one of them being that our city  recycling plant is unable to recycle   plastic bags of any kind.

But, at the  same time, we're struggling to recycle   some of the other materials as well, with  our plants.

So, a whole bunch of different   avenues came up and different problems.

So,  even, businesses would either have supply chain   issues with getting the reusable bags or  they have a stockpile of bags available.

My point is, is that there's a whole bunch of  information and priorities to each individual   out there.

And, I think that it dawned on me and  some others that we were having conversations,   that people should have the right to choose  what is the priority for them, whether it be   the, you know, elimination of plastic  use in their life.

Or, whether it be   a reuse of any kind of materials, or even finding  some way to make sure that they are cleaner   and more sanitary in their day-to-day living.

LAURA: So, the ordinance was a pretty hard-fought   debate to get passed and, of course, there was a  lot of frustration and confusion at the beginning.

But, haven't people largely adjusted at this  point?

And, you know, some people might say,   if they're cynical, might be saying  that this is a way to curry some   political points right now, to repeal this ban… BROOK: So, definitely not any kind of political   motivation with this one.

This is truly, who  knew that the pandemic was coming?

Who knew   that there were going to be a change in priority  for different health measures as well?

Research   is coming out that's saying, you know, in all  fairness… And, I said this a while back, too… on   one of our meetings, that whatever you go looking  for, when it comes to research, you're going to   find the answers you're looking for.

So, I respect  that.

I respect that there is research saying,   you know, we need to eliminate the use of  plastic.

But, there's also research saying   that using paper or using the stitched reusable  bags can also be negative in their own way,   again, depending on what you're looking for and  what your priority is.

So, with the pandemic   happening, with the change in really a big  societal norm, we have a new norm going on.

And, I think that we have to be able to pivot  and recognize what is important to people.

And,   if people think that they need to use a reusable  bag, if they want to use paper, if they want to   use plastic… my point is they should be able to  decide.

We shouldn't be making decisions for them,   especially now that we know that there are  different priorities for many, many people.

LAURA: I'm afraid I don't totally understand  what you mean by different priorities   when it comes to the plastic bags… BROOK: Sure.

I know a lot of people that   have disabilities that actually are requesting  and need help with making sure that they have a   looped bag, whether that be reusable or not.

But,  that's a plastic bag for a lot of them.

People are   concerned about hygiene, whether they be employees  in a store, whether they be consumers in a store.

And, I think that that's another thing where  plastic can come in handy.

If you don't go   home and wash these reusable bags in 140-degree  water with soap every single time they're used,   then it can be argued that bacteria is building  up.

And, I'm not just talking about COVID,   but people are caring more about germs.

Even with the new mask mandate being lifted,   you still see people going out and making sure  that they're now still wearing.

They're choosing   to continue wearing a mask, because they want  to make sure that they are doing what's best for   their priority and their health and their benefit.

LAURA: I haven't seen the science on the sort of   movement of viruses and bacteria through  reusable bags, but the food that we buy   in our grocery stores is typically  packaged, so I'm not sure, like,   what is being spread when people reuse their bags?

BROOK: Well, the first thing that comes to mind,   to me, is meat.

When you buy meat in a grocery  store, a lot of times they drip.

Some people put   them in a plastic bag and to create that barrier  before putting them in a reusable bag.

But, some   don't.

So, if there's, you know, there's… now,  see… now my dog's barking, just for the record.

If you end up having meat and these  different juices and blood and raw matter   inside the reusable bags, if people don't go home  and clean that, which I would hope they would,   I would hope they do, but if they don't, then  there can be other bacteria that builds up.

There can be, there's, people are finding in  different stats if you go out and research,   again, where you decide to research is going to  be kind of paramount… but there's fecal coliform.

There's other e coli matter.

And so,  these, if they're put in the trunk of a car   can grow and spread even more than they  would if you just took them out and let   them air dry or hopefully wash them again.

LAURA: So, have you heard from constituents   that are concerned and sort of  what are the numbers look like,   when a city councilor hears from certain people…  like, how do you decide?

How many people are on   this side?

How many people are on that side?

And this is what I'm going to go forward with,   in terms of my priorities as a councilor?

BROOK: Sure.

Well, I'm definitely hearing from   both sides.

You know, I mean, there's definitely  people that are saying thank you for this.

We, you know, we miss the plastic bags.

They're  going out, people are buying more plastic bags,   instead of reusing what would be otherwise  provided from stores.

So, we're not really seeing,   for some, an elimination or a minimization.

It's just that they're paying money for it.

And then you have in the other side  of it saying, “Well, we're ingesting   the microplastics and we need to be safe  and our environment needs this.” So,   being, both sides are reaching out.

That's  exactly why I think that it should be up to   having a choice.

People should be able to choose  what is best for them and what is most important   for them in their life and how they want to impact  everything, whether it be on a global scale,   a local scale, or a daily scale.

LAURA: And, as I recall, the ordinance   came about in part because of some youth activists  who are working on the issue.

Have you met with   them or talked with them at all about this?

BROOK: So, I've had meetings with some people.

I wouldn't say that any of them have indicated  they're part of the youth activists that have   initiated the original part of the bill, but  I've had meetings, definite conversations,   interviews.

I'm willing to talk.

I respond  to emails.

I make sure that people know   that this is not just a political move.

This is not just about money.

This is   about offering a choice, instead of a mandate.

LAURA: And so, your proposal passed the Council's   Finance and Government Operations Committee  recently.

When does it go to the full council   and, kind of, what's the process there?

BROOK: So, our next council meeting is   this coming Wednesday, in two days.

It will not  be on that one, because it has to go, it was on   the letter of introduction for this last Friday.

So, it'll be, to be heard at the next meeting   in a couple weeks after that.

So, we have about  two weeks and a couple days, or about two,   actually two weeks from today, now that I'm  thinking about it, because today is Monday.

LAURA: And so, with so much happening, I feel  like, just a quick look around Albuquerque… we   are faced with so many challenges, whether that's  the pandemic or mental health, climate change,   water challenges, homelessness, crime.

Why  revisit this particular ordinance right now?

BROOK: Sure, well this is one that, again,  was brought to my attention, whether it be   from consumers, whether it be from businesses.

It was a whole different level of communication,   but I think that we, absolutely, it's my number  one priority to do what I can to reduce crime.

To do what I can to improve homelessness.

And,  arguably, I think some people could say that   plastic shouldn't be, you know, all of us agree it  shouldn't be floating around, but some people need   a more disposable or reusable option, as far  as a temporary thing.

Especially for homeless   people that are having these encampments.

We're  seeing problems with that, as well.

So, it's my,   it's my priority to reduce crime and homelessness  in our city, but at the same time that doesn't   mean that we have to ignore other things that  are impacting our lives on a daily basis.

And that being said, you know, businesses are  struggling.

Consumers are more concerned, in a   different way, than they were two years ago.

And,  I think that that's very important to recognize.

LAURA: So, with the plastic bag issue,  there's kind of, as I understand,   two kinds of sides, two reasons why this was an  important ordinance when it was passed, was to   reduce the manufacture of plastic bags, which is  heavily oil and gas reliant, which is a polluting   process in and of itself.

And then, kind of, the  waste stream issue and the litter issue.

How can   how can both of those problems be addressed?

BROOK: Sure.

So, again, when you research one way   or the other, you can find out that even with the  manufacturing of paper bags that that also can be   a problem with different environmental impacts.

Most of the things that I was able to find is   saying that the ethylene used… this is, I have  to look at my notes to make sure I don't screw   it up for you, but the ethylene used, is what's  used to make plastic bags.

And that it must be   removed from natural gas anyway, so if we're  going to be removing that from natural gas,   why not make bags that are going to be a  little bit more accommodating to some people?

Paper can actually cause problems environmentally  as well.

Some people are finding that lead is in   reusable stitched bags, or they're coming  in from other states.

And, or, I'm sorry…   the other countries that end up having some other  economic and or environmental problems there too,   but I think that when you're looking  at the manufacturing side you also   have to look at the delivery side, where  plastic is not taking up so much space   in trucks.

So, there's statistics out there  saying that the same number of paper bags   would take seven trucks to be able to have, to  transport, versus one truck would be able to   transport the same amount of plastic bags.

That  being said, my point is that we also have to look   at the fuel used in all of these trucks and the  impacts on our roads and that part of our system.

And then, as far as going to the other  end of that, with littering and recycling,   I think it's important that people know these bags  can be recycled.

We just don't do it here at a   local level, we can make sure to put up the proper  packaging and the boxes that are at the stores,   so that way people can make sure to bring  back their produce bags to bring back any of   the plastic bags that they're not using.

And, we  can make sure, as a city that we transport those,   so that they get properly recycled as well.

LAURA: So, looking around the country,   there are hundreds of cities that have undertaken  plastic bag bans.

San Diego, California, Portland,   Oregon, just hundreds of cities.

Why do you  think those bans have been successful in other   cities but aren't working here in Albuquerque?

BROOK: I don't think that it's necessarily that   they're working better in another city versus  ours or the other way around, but I think people   are finding a different solution.

There's other  statistics out there saying that trash bag sales   have gone up in those cities.

So, people  are purchasing bags.

They're going to the   equivalent of a dollar tree and purchasing trash  bag liners that are made out of the same plastic   we're trying to avoid using.

And, rather  than making sure that they're getting reused   from one to two options is now turning into a,  it's being purchased for an additional use and   never going to be used more than once, anyway.

LAURA: So, I know this is a popular,   it's probably the wrong word, but a hot button  issue for many people.

If they want to weigh in   on this, what is the best way for  them to do that here in Albuquerque?

BROOK: Sure.

They can go and they can reach  out.

I mean, we're getting a lot of emails   and I know that some of them are directed straight  to me, which is fine.

So, I'm my email is bbassan   at cabq.gov, but there's also, you can go to  the city council website and you can choose   “contact your councilor.” You can contact  either your own councilor or you can contact   all of the councilors.

So a lot of the emails  we're getting are going out to all of us,   so that we all get to hear from the same  person and we all get the same message.

And so, that's a great way to be able to  communicate with, whether it's just me,   whether it's somebody else, indirect…  or if it's everyone altogether.

LAURA: All right.

We will put that link  to the city website in the comments there.

Councilor, thanks for joining me bright  and earlyish on a Monday morning.

BROOK: You got it.

Thank you  for having me.

Have a good day.