(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Forum 360."

This is Mark Welfley, your host today.

Thank you for joining us with our global outlook with a local view.

There are a few defining moments in Northeast Ohio history where our country has taken notice.

The first electric streetcar rolled down Cleveland streets in 1884, the Cuyahoga River fire of 1969, the opening of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in 1995.

The LeBron James-led Cleveland Cavaliers prevailed to win the NBA Championship in 2016.

Another defining moment in Cleveland history occurred on July 23rd, 1968, the Glenville riots, the dramatic shootout between Cleveland Police and black nationalists that left 10 dead and over 15 wounded, and left Cleveland to wrestle with its race relations.

Today, we will talk about the riots, and use it as a springboard to discuss the nearly 52 years of race relations that have followed.

Were the riots a pivot point for race relations in Cleveland history?

What lessons should we have learned?

And what leaders have emerged?

My guest today has written a book about the Glenville riots.

His name is Jim Robenalt.

Jim Robenalt is a lawyer, lecturer, guest speaker, Ohio native, guitarist, and author of four books, including "Ballots and Bullets: Black Power Politics "and Urban Guerrilla Warfare in 1968 Cleveland."

Jim, welcome.

- Thanks, Mark, it's great to be with you.

- Thank you.

The Glenville riots, how did you become interested in this important event in Cleveland history?

- You know, it's interesting, I've written four books, and I never set out to be a writer, or to take any subject in particular on, but they all seem to find me.

What happened was in 2016, one of the secretaries at my law firm told me about her father who had been a Cleveland policeman in 1968, and that he had been very badly wounded in a shooting.

And I said, "Tell me more about it."

She brought in a book about the shootout in Glenville in July of 1968, said her father had his leg essentially almost amputated because of wounds from that encounter.

So I was curious about it, but as I was reading this little book that she brought in, a government-sponsored, why did this happen type of book, on the news came a report out of Dallas that a black nationalist figure had gone to a Black Lives Matter event in Dallas in retaliation for the killing of black men by police specifically with the idea that he was going to try to kill as many white policemen as he could.

That really struck me, because as I was reading this book about Glenville, that's exactly what happened then.

It was a deliberate war between the black nationalists and the Cleveland Police.

And so, the question that drove this book was why are we here 50 years later?

Why do we have this thing repeating itself, you know, this many decades later?

What happened?

And so, that really is what drove me to write the book, and to look deeper into what really happened 50 years ago, and what caused the black freedom movement to stall in many ways 50 years ago.

- Doing your research, what surprised you in what you found?

- What surprised me is how little I knew about Cleveland's history in race.

I've been here since 1981, when I became a lawyer in one of the law firms downtown.

And you know, I heard about Hough, and most people who live in Cleveland know of Hough, and the Hough riot.

Very few people know about Glenville, which is two years later.

It was, you know, twice as bloody, much more deadly, much more important in the grand scheme of things of what was going on in the nation.

And so, it just surprised me how little I knew.

It also surprised me quite a bit how this one event linked up with both Dr. Martin Luther King, and what he was doing in Cleveland, and Malcolm X, who gave his most important speech called "The Ballot or the Bullet," which I've named the book after, here in Cleveland in 1964, just a year before he died.

So it surprised me how interconnected our story here was with the national story.

- How can white America better understand the plight of black Americans both back then and today?

Can you- - You know, it's a great question, because there are two Americas, and there always have been two Americas.

We've been separated by race since the founding of this nation, and it is really difficult for white Americans to put themselves in the shoes of black Americans and to see this country as they see it.

I think the first thing that people need to do, especially white Americans, is to read deeply in the black freedom struggle, and there are really two areas that you need to cover in that, in looking at that.

One is the traditional, what is called the classical civil rights movement, and we all, you know, associate that with Dr. King and his bus boycott in Birmingham, and then, you know, or in elsewhere in Alabama, and the Birmingham protests, and then of course the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

These events all came out of the South, and Dr. King and his non-violence protest.

In the North, it was a different story.

In the North, there were two great migrations during the 20th century, during the wars in particular, as large numbers of African Americans moved out of the South into the North and the West, and they came to Cleveland in very large numbers.

And the people in the North were not the same as the people in the South in terms of their predicament, their situation, and so forth.

And in the North, young African Americans really bonded with the Malcolm X ideology of fighting back and protecting yourself against white violence in urban areas in particular.

But the two circumstances were very different.

They both had the same goal, black freedom, black liberation, but how you got there was very different, and it kind of played out here in Cleveland in particular, and I think for white Americans to begin to even open the book on understanding their fellow citizens, you really have to read deeply into both of these areas, not just the South, not just the classic civil rights, but really what happened in the North, and the failures of what happened in the North, and how we're still living with so many issues from that time.

- Thanks.

In your book you say that the root causes of the riot were racism and poverty, and that these two remain an at issue today, or unaddressed.

Why is this so?

- Well, in particular, in the North, in places like Cleveland, in Chicago, and New York, and so forth, and even out in Los Angeles, when these great migrations happened, African Americans who were traditionally rural, you know, Southern sharecropping people who had moved into some of the cities in the South, like Birmingham, which had a very big steel industry, and then they moved out of the South to the North during this period of time.

And what happened was the thought was they were getting away from Jim Crow.

They were getting into a better situation, and in fact, in many ways, it was a worse situation, because when they came North, there was nowhere to go.

So Hough and Glenville became primarily black neighborhoods in Cleveland, and they became grossly overcrowded.

Hough and Glenville both each had like 70,000 residents stuffed into those neighborhoods.

And today, it's like 17,000 to give you a point of comparison.

So you know, schools became overcrowded, bad sanitation, and on top of all that, there was a lot of police brutality that occurred as the white establishment wanted to control the blacks who had moved North, and as the conditions in these ghettos grew worse, crime grew worse, police brutality increased, and it was just, it was really a toxic mixture all related to racism and poverty, and the fact that African Americans couldn't generally move into white neighborhoods.

They were stuck going into totally black neighborhoods, which became, you know, these ghettos, and then became really tinderboxes for an explosion, especially with the police oppression that happened during that time.

So all those things combined to cause these conditions that resulted in uprisings across the North and out in Watts and Los Angeles, too.

- And so, these issues, fast forward the clock now 52 years to today, seem as we say to still be kind of unaddressed and at issue.

What hasn't happened?

What needed to happen over the past several decades to help the situation, to ameliorate it?

- You know, it's a great question, Mark, because this was the main question I wanted to address, what happened?

And so the first what happened, you know, what happened back in '68?

Well, back in '68 we know that Carl Stokes had just been elected mayor of Cleveland.

So we had like a Barack Obama of his day, lawyer, charismatic, great speaker, and seen as a way to rise above racism.

You know, the first African American mayor of a major US city.

It was a day of jubilation when he was elected in November of 1967.

The problem is five months later Dr. King was assassinated in Memphis, and as happened in the '60s, every time we had progress, violence would intervene to undercut that violence, and then violence would beget violence.

So the white violence that murdered Dr. King, you know, resulted in uprisings that evening, and during that time that he was killed.

But here in Cleveland, the black nationalists, who were led by a guy named Fred Ahmed Evans, began to arm themselves, and they wanted to go after the police in retaliation for all the police abuse and for the killings of people like Dr. King.

And so, you know, what happened back then was that this violence undercut where we were going.

Now, so the next question is where were we going back then?

Well, the answer was we were moving in the right direction.

As some of this violence occurred, President Johnson put together a commission called the Kerner Commission, named after the Illinois governor, and that commission came back with a report on why were these uprisings and riots happening in our cities across the nation, in large numbers, by the way.

I mean, it wasn't just Cleveland, it was all over.

And that commission came back and said, "Well, really the problem is both racism and poverty, "and it's whites going along with these ghettos, "and not ensuring that housing was open," and all sorts of other things, but also just not addressing the poverty, and the conditions, and the lack of job opportunities, educational opportunities, good housing.

It needed government support.

It needed government, you know, money, And at that time, the Johnson administration was trying to address that through what it called its war on poverty.

That was all going in the right direction.

Here in Cleveland, after Dr. King was killed, Carl Stokes put together Cleveland: Now!, an anti-poverty program that was going to raise a billion dollars for Cleveland, think about that, in 1968, over 10 years.

And so, again, right direction, but what happens is Ahmed Evans uses money from that Cleveland: Now!

anti-poverty program to buy the rifles, to buy the ammunition, and to begin this war with the police, and it's discovered very quickly that he had used that money.

So that's the end of Cleveland: Now!

The rioting that was in reaction to these horrible conditions in the Northern ghettos creates a great backlash that results in the Nixon counterrevolution.

Nixon is elected in 1968.

Not the two weeks after this Glenville shootout, he's in Miami saying, taking the nomination of the Republican Party, saying, "We need law and order in this country."

And he wasn't wrong.

I mean, things were really in desperate shape, but his answer was, "We've gotta stop giving money to people.

"It's just resulting in rioting.

"I'm the law and order candidate.

"I'm gonna control this situation."

So that begins this counterrevolution, and that, Nixon then dismantles the war on poverty.

The Office of Economic Opportunity, which was the engine of that war on poverty, is dismantled.

And instead, what we have is a war not on poverty, but a war on drugs in urban areas, and we begin this mass incarceration of African American males in particular to the extent that, you know, we have more African American men in jail recently than were in slavery back in the late 1850s.

So it's a huge issue, a huge problem.

The war on poverty becomes the war on drugs, and we begin this political cycle of using culture issues and cultural shifts and divides to create our politics.

So fast forward to 2016, Donald Trump comes to Cleveland, of all places, and gives a speech that mimics Richard Nixon's speech back in 1968, you know, and his is right after the Dallas shooting I talked about.

He says, you know, "We see police being shot.

"We hear sirens in the street.

"I'm the law and order candidate.

"I alone can control this."

And that begins this, you know, really precipitous rise of white nationalism in reaction to, you know, what's happening with the Black Lives Matter.

So we are in this vicious cycle that started 50 years ago, and that really took off 50 years ago, and we have not found our way out of it.

I believe the Biden administration now is turning a corner, but we still have a tremendous number of people who have been activated to show their bigotry and to openly display, you know, the white nationalism and all the rest of that stuff that has been so corrosive.

- My guest today is Jim Robenalt.

Jim is an attorney, lecturer, guest speaker, Ohio native, guitarist, and author of the book we've been talking about, "Ballots and Bullets: "Black Power Politics and Urban Guerrilla Warfare "in 1968 Cleveland."

In speaking a second ago, you were leading me to my next question, which is is there white empathy for racism and Black poverty?

We seem to have two Americas today.

Oh, comment on that question.

- You know, that's another great question.

There clearly are people who have empathy for their fellow citizens, Black fellow citizens.

There always have been.

There've been people who have been on the right side of this issue for a long time.

There are also a lot of people who don't believe they're racist and believe we've gone beyond, that we're post-racial, especially after President Obama was elected president.

You heard that a lot, that we've moved beyond race.

The problem is that this country has been involved in race bigotry and prejudice for over 400 years since the first African Americans were brought here as slaves, since the Civil War, since the 100 years of Reconstruction, and into the current day, and some of the problems that we have in, especially in urban areas, in our cities.

And although a lot of white Americans want to empathize and feel empathy for their fellow citizens, it's hard for them to do, because the studies are now showing today especially one of the hot topics is what's called implicit bias, where our brains work in one way very quickly, very quick associations.

To give just, this is really a crude example, but walking down a street late at night, if you're approached by two white kids, you may not feel the same level of fear than if you were approached by two young Black kids.

It's just these quick associations that result from the fact that we've lived our lives immersed in a racist society, and yet, our histories kind of deny it.

We really haven't dealt with it, and implicit bias is really difficult to overcome.

So I think while there's a lot of white empathy, there's a real true lack of deep understanding of the situation, and still an otherness to Black citizens that white citizens feel.

And I think, you know, over time we're getting better and better and better at it.

But I think one of the biggest problems we have is that people just don't acknowledge the racism that's still very prevalent in our nation, and that's prevalent with people who don't even think they're racist, who just subconsciously have these associations that drive their decisions, what they think about people, how people are promoted, all of that sort of thing.

So it's an endemic problem to our nation, and it's one that we have to work on in many ways, and the most important thing we need to do is have friends who are African Americans to begin to step beyond these associations.

- In preparing for this story, I was speaking to a number of friends of mine and others, and they would point to leadership, and they would say, you know, "Who do we listen to?

"Who do we follow?"

Whether you're white, or whether you're Black, do you start with the mayor?

Do you start with the faith community to listen?

Who's got the ideas?

And I think this happens on both sides, both white and Blacks who listened to Mayor Jackson.

How would you comment on his guidance of race relations in Cleveland over the past years that he's been mayor?

- Yeah, you know, your point about leadership is incredibly important.

Before I talk about Mayor Jackson, I remember when Martin Luther King was assassinated.

I was in high school at the time.

Two months later, Bobby Kennedy was killed.

And it just seemed at the time like we were in a period of time where we were losing our leaders.

But I also remember just having this, what I now think is a false sense of hope that, you know, well, we've lost Dr. King, we've lost Bobby Kennedy, but others will come along, and others will lead us.

And the fact is those murders had a huge impact over the decades in terms of leadership, and there's been a real problem.

The same thing happened here in Cleveland.

Carl Stokes was, as I said, seen as the great promise of the future for Northern cities to have Black leadership.

And then Glenville comes along, and he is associated with Cleveland: Now!, his anti-poverty program, and you know, these nationalists buying the guns with that money.

So it really destroys his leadership.

Again, this violence undercuts his leadership, and that has an impact.

While his brother went on to become a 15-term congressman and a great leader of this city, there has been this fundamental distrust and still this fundamental otherness between the whites in Cleveland and the Blacks in Cleveland.

We have a pretty all-white West Side of Cleveland.

We have, you know, the Black neighborhoods still concentrated in many ways.

It's getting better in all respects, but it still is very dramatic.

You talk to people who come to Cleveland from outside Cleveland, they really notice it.

So I think there's been this fundamental distancing still between our leaders, our African American leaders and our white leaders.

And Frank Jackson has had to play a role of walking a very fine line between, you know, keeping the whole city together, and in my view, you know, he's done tremendous things for the city He's done wonderful things for, you know, the renaissance of Cleveland, and Downtown Cleveland, and so forth.

But you have to look at Glenville and Hough, and go through them, drive through those areas, and you will see that there's intense poverty still.

So there's a problem with addressing that.

Now, you know, Jackson's had to deal with the fact that companies are leaving, the population base is going down.

But we still have this very vibrant, huge economy going on in this county, but yet we still don't have the resources put to, you know, trying to solve our problems with our schools, and in those areas.

So while Frank Jackson has kept things together, he's run a government that does not seem to have gotten involved in any, you know, corruption, but yet there's still this problem that we are one of the poorest cities in America still.

So on that front, you know, leadership still needs to emerge, and you have people like Justin Bibb and Blaine Griffin and others who are now running for mayor.

It'll be interesting to see what their proposals are to address these issues.

But as I say, Frank Jackson has a mixed bag in my view about his accomplishments.

They have been very good.

He's been a good leader, but there also is no denying that we still have really dire problems, especially in the African American community.

- In the minute we have left, or so, I wanted to get your reaction on the latest movie "Judas and the Black Messiah," which chronicles the life of Fred Hampton, the chairman of the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party.

In a minute, or so, can you tell me was he involved?

How did he play in at all to the riots?

- Yeah, well, Mark, that film was actually made here in Cleveland, principally in Hough, and his story, he was assassinated in January of 1969, or February.

Fred Evans had the shootout eight months earlier in August of '68.

And it is clear from the FBI files I uncovered that Evans was working with people in Detroit, in Chicago, in Pittsburgh, and so forth.

There was supposed to be a much wider rebellion and uprising across multiple cities.

I've not yet tied it to Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers per se in Chicago, but it wouldn't surprise me if with more research I do see that that's there, and his story mimics Ahmed Evans' in that, you know, an insider who was an FBI informant kind of squealed on him and squealed on Ahmed Evans, which is why the shootout here went off like a day early, but very similar stories and lessons.

- Great, thank you, Jim.

The city of Cleveland with its Playhouse Square boasts the largest performance arts center outside of New York City.

As an all-American city with big names, and big events, and big dreams, Cleveland and all of Northeast Ohio has become a stage for the world and the country to watch.

With strong leadership from all areas of the racial spectrum and a willingness to move out of our comfort zone, Cleveland can become a national model for race relations and make the most of this defining moment.

Thanks to Jim Robenalt for shining a light on an important part of Cleveland history.

We will turn out the lights on this show, but keep our minds open until the next time on "Forum 360."

Thank you for joining us.

- [Announcer] "Forum 360" is brought to you by John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Akron Community Foundation, Hudson Community Television, The Rubber City Radio Group, Shaw Jewish Community Center of Akron, Blue Green, Electric Impulse Communications, and "Forum 360" supporters.

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