>> Welcome to dialogue, a collaboration between WOSU and OSU's John Glenn, college of public affairs.

I'm Mike Thompson chief content director for OSU media.

Our topic today: Race and the police, healing the divide.

The divide has been there for a long time, for most of our country's history in fact.

People of color have lived with the divide while many of us were unaware or ignored it.

We have not solved the tension, unequal justice, and economic and social issues That appear in some way or another during every interaction with police and people of color.

We have mobile phone videos, surveillance videos, police dash and body cams Have often showed heroic police actions, but too frequently they also show disturbing behavior.

They have now put the divide on full display.

Demanding change, the protes tors flooded the streets of downtown.

We hope to live up to the mission of this series and have an honest and thoughtful and civil discussion about this very difficult issue.

We want you to join this dialogue.

During our discussion, we will accept questions from you.

Please use the Q&A function on Zoom.

WOSU news host and anchor Clare Roth will select the ones most relevant to our discussion.

Now let's welcome our guest, reverend Jefferey P Kee is a Columbus native and pastor.

Angel Tucker was the first to join the Oregon police department.

And Kim Jacobs, former chief of police.

Reverend Kee I want to start with you, how do you characterize the nature of the divide right now?

How deep is it, and how does it compare to when you were a younger person?

>> It's very deeply rooted.

I shared when I was very young, when I was five years of age, I remember clearly my dad sitting my down And he would have the newspaper every day.

And he would read the newspaper, and then look at the national news.

I had an uncle who was a pastor.

And I would go to church.

And I learned how to counter with what was going on in the world with the Word.

So I knew on one hand like Dr. Gart ner Taylor said, a preacher should have a bible in one hand and a newspaper in the other, So he can be aware of what's going on in the world.

So I knew a long time ago that systemic racism is deeply rooted in our society In that there is a great divide when it comes to policing and we see it over and over again As it's on display every time we look throughout the nation.

We were talking about Minneapolis and Ferguson and I said for a long time we need to look at this police department.

Because it has a history of treating people inhumane and people within the police department were looking for a prophetic voice.

Because they said we're dealing with retaliation, the culture of policing within the city Is a plantation, and we see too often the abusive hand of policing and trying to have a more equitable police department.

>> Jacobs, you were with the Columbus police division, you led the police division for a number of years, how do you characterize the divide?

>> The names you mentioned, Breonna Taylor, Casey Goodson, George Floyd, The majority of officers I spoke to agree those deaths should not have occurred, especially at the hands of police.

That is one of those things we do agree on, bad policing and bad cops are things that good cops don't want around.

I do believe there is a divide.

We've done a lot, in my opinion, to try to reduce that; dialogue in my opinion is one of the best ways.

We sit down together and discuss our points of view and perspectives, And then try to come up with some understanding of each other, knowledge about the concerns, fears, distrust, All of those things.

The Columbus police foundation allowed more than 350 officers to go to Washington DC to look at the holocaust Museum and the African-American museum to study the past very fraught relationship between our communities and our police.

>> Officer Tucker, you're an officer and also African-American.

How do you characterize the divide?

Is it deeper than when you started on the job.

>> My divide, like the Reverend started much earlier than my experience as a police officer.

I grew up in inner city, and I had this call that I wanted to serve early.

But I muted that call because you didn't do that where I was from.

I grew up around gangs and drugs, the last thing you want to say is you want to serve in the military or be a firs responder.

Still as a kid I would wave at the police as they drove by and they would give me the middle finger.

I wanted to walk down the street to visit a young lady and I would get harassed by the police.

They would throw me up against a car and one time pulled my pants down in front of everybody.

It was just an embarrassing situation, and yet I still felt the call to serve.

Don't get me wrong, there were good officers I encountered along the way.

But the divide, I haven't seen growth as far as bringing us together.

I haven't seen a close in the gap from the time I was a youth to being currently a police.

If I can piggyback, the chief and reverend were correct in what they were saying.

If I can piggyback on that, one of the things as law enforcement we should do, which is what I suggested when George Floyd happened, We need to take ownership and accountability for our part in this.

We never really told the community, hey, we know that things are wrong, and that there are some imbalance.

And we really do want to take ownership of it.

And on top of taking ownership, I think we should invite the community to help us Not only take ownership in it, but to help us to figure out what to do to correct it.

I know we're doing it in some area, but a lot of times the public has no clue into how we are trained.

I teach in the citizens police academy.

So initially I taught culture of diversity, but now I just teach culture of police so they know things we do.

Also tactical and communication where I have community members and first responders in the training together.

What I want to know is if our community approves of our training that means it's most likely good.

If they don't approve of it, then why are we wasting money using it if it's not going to reflect on our community.

>> Chief Jacobs, I want to reflect back on what the reverend said.

He used some strong language there, he used the term plantation.

Has the Columbus police department been too slow to address this in your opinion?

>> I don't believe so no.

Under mayor Coleman and Mitchell Brown, we made a lot of strides to establish core values That meant for, respect for all of our community.

We emphasized recruiting and we added diversity and inclusion liaisons during my tenure.

We did dialogues, we did meetings with the community; we went to their meetings and talked to them.

We changed a lot of different practices.

There was a huge emphasis on trying to improve community relations, and make sure that things were being done equitably.

And in those cases where we found that we needed to improve or training, we tried to do that as well.

We've been CLEA accredited for a long time with ethics and bias training.

But we increased the frequency that it was done.

We did it more frequently than what they said.

>> Reverend Kee, looking at some of the causes of the divide, One thing that's mentioned is overpolicing in low-income neighborhoods, neighborhoods where there are a the lot of people who live there.

On the other hand there is a lot of crime in those neighborhoods and people want police there A lot of African Americans have been victims of crime and also perpetrators of crime.

What is the proper level in your mind of policing in neighborhoods where a lot of people of color live?

>> Assuming I think no one really wants crime in their community, but when you are being racially profiled When you are a citizen of a particular community, you have been identified to be a problem because of systemic racism That is in the police department, and I respect what Chief Jacobs expressed, But the reality is that there were many lawsuits -- not many, but there was an era of more lawsuits under her watch.

There was a lawsuit with the African-American Carl Shaw who expressed that this culture was retaliatory Under chief Jacobs in terms of unfair and in regards to discipline.

All of these things are horrendous cataclysms that have not been adequately addressed.

And certainly if a person is committing a crime, I think we all would agree that we do not want crime in our community.

You need to render a certain level of whatever it takes, a level 1, level 2.

But we see clearly so many, I think there's no answer for particularly unarmed African American males That we see over and over again just totally unarmed who have been ambushed and killed for no apparent reason.

I would like to hear an answer to that, but I think there must be an admission -- I would call it the AAA response.

First of all we have to clearly acknowledge that it is a problem.

It's been a problem under Kim Jacob's watch, Mitch Brown's watch.

The Columbus Police Department has become chronically worse in terms of becoming more white.

I'll say this, I think this is very alarming that we have about 1,900 police officers on the Columbus police department And twenty-something of them who are African-Americans came and wanted us to honor their anonymity.

But look at that, you have 100 and some police officer, 20 are black and came to the religious institution To say we need help because this is really out of control.

At that time, chief Jacobs was the chief of the police department.

But we have to acknowledge it is a problem, that's No.

1; then the second thing we have to do is address what is the problem.

Then point No.

3, we have to deal with attitudes of those who try to rationalize it's not a problem.

Fourthly, we have to make adjustments to accept that it is a problem.

And finally we have to amend by addressing how to correct the problem.

But until we really acknowledge that African-Americans have been harassed, victims of excessive force, Been intimidated and in particularly if officers in the Columbus Police Department can dealing with this From their own colleagues and comrades, think about what the citizens are dealing with with this widespread malady of injustice.

>> I want to talk to the diversity aspect in a moment.

But chief Jacobs want to give you a chance to respond to what reverend Kee said to your leadership And what the Columbus police department has done over the past recent years.

>> Well, I would say the facts of all of these cases are extremely important.

We have investigations, there are public records.

I loved living and working in Ohio for that particular reason.

Transparency is one of the things I truly believe in.

So the facts of all the cases are extremely important.

But investigations are also important.

We don't know everything that happened until we've created those things.

And now there are a multitude of ways in which those investigations can happen.

And there is an EEO investigator in the director of public safety's office as well.

So those things are addressed.

Lawsuits are addressed.

They are defended by the City of Columbus City Attorney's office.

And I'm not afraid of what all of those investigations say with regard to my particular actions.

But I will say one thing that employee relations are extremely important to me.

I had multitudes of what I called kitchen cabinet type of meetings.

I brought a lot of different people into my office and said, what's going on?

These were officers, sergeants, lieutenants, trying to hear from them instead of just upper level executive staff people.

And try to find out what it is they need.

Obviously in a workforce of not just the 1,900 officers, but another 400 civilians We have a lot of things going on.

It's important to me that all of our employees feel valued, listened to, and that their rights are protected.

My experience as a woman in a male-dominated organization was different perhaps from a lot of different people.

And I certainly can't speak from the arena of being a Black person in my organization.

I know that some of them have had a difficult ride.

But I do believe that the division has tried to accomplish investigations that will come to the information that we need to know To make a decision about that outcome.

And sometimes the proof is there, and sometimes the proof is not.

But it is important to have good really close employee relationships.

Because I agree if you feel good about yourself, you're going to go out there and do good work for the community.

And if you don't, if you feel your organization is not supportive, then that might be impinged upon.

But I agree.

We need to do as much as we possibly can to make every employee feel valued.

And investigate their complaints.

And now there are and have always been different places that they can go to address those complaints.

>> Officer Angel Tucker, you were the first African American police officer in Oregon, Ohio.

Diversity is a problem in police ranks.

Columbus is 28 percent African American.

But the division of police is only 10 percent African American.

What can be done to increase the number of people of color on the police force?

>> So other than your basic recruitment efforts, I would say exactly what I said the first time and exactly what the reverend said, an acknowledgment.

There has to be acknowledgment that there's wrongdoing and missteps on the part of not only law enforcement but the system in general.

And like the Chief said, instead of just listening to upper rank and file, really listen to your troops that are on the the ground Both in civilian and first responder world.

Then we have to dive into another area: How traumatized are our underresourced communities As well as some first responders.

And trauma is an area that a lot of us don't like to talk about with everything going on, gangs Drugs, fires, shootings.

There's a lot of trauma there that can create PTSD and things like that.

I call it a clash of conditions.

With the lack of not only understanding a culture and a race, now you're not understanding a mental health.

So when you look at all those things that both sides deal with, and you see oh wow they both have so much in common, I think as acknowledgment and showing commonalities that we all have.

And coming together under those guises of commonalities, for me it unlocked that mute button That was in my head of that call to serve.

And once I unlocked the mute button for that call to serve, I kind of had a clear path how to unlock other people's mute button.

>> We're going to unlock Clare Roth's mute button.

She's our host and fielding questions from our audience.

If you have a question, use the Q&A function on your screen.

If you don't want to ask a question and you like a question somebody else asked, You can vote it up and it'll climb up on the rankings and get Clare's attention.

>> Mary has a question for the group: Do you believe the recent efforts to reimagine public safety With hearings to get feedback from the community will effect real change?

How will we recognize improvement?

>> Reverend Kee I'll let you answer that one.

>> Did you say reverend Kee?

>> Yes, please.

>> Okay, I think we can do things in theory, but sometimes it's not really played out in reality.

What I don't like is when something is an ongoing process but it's not an an going progress.

So many times we will window address and say we have something there, but really things do not change in terms of the systemic evil.

So we can keep having dialogues and keep having support systems and no one there to support the system.

But we need to be really intentional and make sure that we are moving forward.

I've been a part of something called Seven Expectations where two years and maybe three months in And we're just at two of the expectations.

So I'm just saying that if you're not careful, it can be some progress, little progress, but sometimes it's an ongoing process.

But there's very little progress.

>> Chief Jacobs you talked about training and having dialogues.

But the culture of policing, you know, there is a culture of us against them in the police that whether it's Too many guns on the street and police officers are worried that somebody's going to pull a gun on them.

There's an us against them mentality in the police to a large extent.

And then also how they treat people of color, people from a lower socioeconomic background, How do you improve the culture of policing so it's more cooperative, more community minded More understanding of folks that don't look like those officers, don't come from the same backgrounds as those officers.

>> I do believe that us against them thing has existed for many years.

I believe that it's diminishing because we have been encouraging community engagement, again, for the last 10-15 years in CPD.

Getting out of your cruiser.

Going around and talking to people at recreation centers, libraries, where ever you might find community members.

And just talking to them with the dialogues that we did, we also tried to engage with them.

There is a certain amount of what I consider to be patriarchal feeling in policing That we had to take care of everyone, but that was kind of like at the risk of not listening to anyone as well.

But I would say that in the last, I don't know, ten years or so, we've been paying attention to what our community is saying.

Some of those things can't happen over night, and as much as we wish that we could change Things for the better immediately it is not always possible to change that quickly.

But there are some things that we can change very quickly through policy and say you can't do this anymore.

And that has been done.

We've changed an awful lot of rules.

We've updated them to be more responsive to some of our community concerns.

And I do believe that officers today are better than they've ever been.

When I joined the Department in 1979, there was a definite us against them.

And there was "I can do whatever I want to do " attitude sometimes with the use of force.

But with all those technology improvements we have, with the training improvements we have, with the leadership improvements we've seen, We've been able to hold officers more accountable because we have that information now that we didn't have in the past.

The officers of today didn't grow up in that period of time where trust in the police was kind of implicit almost.

Now it's more of a distrust of the police until proven otherwise at times.

And that's okay.

I think officers that take the oath understand that they are held to a higher standard, and they should be.

And that the things they do that other citizens do just won't pass muster.

So I do believe that they understand that there's transparency and accountability that is extremely important to our community.

And they're willing to continue to work in those conditions.

>> Officer Tucker, I don't know if you are in the police union, perhaps you are.

>> Yes.

>> One of the things is police unions get in the way of bad apples who should not be on the force.

But the union contract and the union discipline process is too cumbersome, it protects officers too much.

What can be done there?

Is that true?

Do you agree with that?

And what can be done if it is a problem?

>> Actually I don't agree with that, actually.

The union is not at all what I thought it to be before I became a police officer.

The union does help out the officers in a lot of areas of negotiation and contracts and things of that nature.

However, the union cannot forego the law or the policy and procedure of the agency that an officer's employed at.

So if an officer is written up or let's just say an officer is not written up -- that has nothing to do with the union.

Let's say I constantly commit infractions.

And my supervisor's never write me up.

And then I commit a big one, then they decide, you know what?

This is too much.

He needs to go well the union is going to step in and say, no, per your contract, there has to be a buildup.

Like a force continuum.

Just like the force continuum policy, you have to make so many measures.

So if I'm not getting written up, that's a supervisory issue.

So if it says you get six serious infractions within a certain period of time -- I'm just throwing a number out there.

There's nothing the union can do to combat that.

So I would say, no, that's pretty much something that I used to think myself but I've since found out a myth.

>> But we've seen stories, Officer, of police who have done bad things and then get their jobs back.

Is that an anomaly?

>> No, it's a leadership issue and sometimes an overcharging issue.

For example, if someone commits involuntary manslaughter and they charge them with murder on purpose Then there's no way to prove the intent was there, so the individual gets off.

That's a judgment issue or a law issue.

And as far as the getting their jobs back, you know, even if an officer's acquitted for something The agency could still say, okay, they were acquitted but we choose to terminate their employment.

Now if there's something in there where it was a wrongful termination and there's some language in there for that, Then yeah, they could ask for their union representation to step in and help them.

However, I don't foresee that as a union issue.

>> Okay, getting quite a few questions from audience, we want to return to Clare.

>> Sonia has a question about qualified immunity -- that's the legal principle that grants police officers from certain civil suits.

Do you believe abolishing that could serve as a strong deter rent to abusing police powers.

>> Qualified immunity?

>> I believe the Supreme Court just heard a case on qualified immunity and decided not to address that at this point in time.

Or to take it away.

And it's not just police officers that it applies to.

It applies to government officials.

So boards of education, a lot of public officials have qualified immunity.

And don't think that that doesn't allow police departments and cities to hold their own officers accountable.

That's really about lawsuits, and damages that could be caused.

And if you are making a decision in the line of your work that is discretionary, Allowed by policy and has never been told that it's against policy or against somebody's constitutional rights Then that's what the immunity is about.

If there was a clearly negative thing that happens that is something an officer should know, Then they don't have qualified immunity.

They have to be listened to and go to court to determine what type of liability they might have.

But it's one of those really big things.

It's a federal thing.

It's not a local decision.

And there are reasons why it exists.

But I will make this point again.

That doesn't stop police agencies and mayors and other organization leads to not hold the officers that have done A bad act accountable.

>> Reverend Kee, I want to get your take on this.

A lot of other things that have been said.

Qualified immunity, it is a high bar because of the nature of the work that police officers do.

That grand juries face whether or not to indict an officer who is charged with excessive force or using deadly force inappropriately.

What do you think should be done with regards to the legal system?

Not necessarily the policy system and the division of police, but whether or not an officer should face criminal charges.

>> Absolutely.

We've had too many officers again and again where we see the same scenario.

Where they walk away from murdering and killing and just think about Columbus.

We're dealing now with an execution of one officer.

If the record is correct and the family is correct, that here's a person Casey Goodson Jr. Who has been shot in the back six times -- six times.

That's an execution.

Then you have on the other hand, here's andre Hill by an officer Adam Coy.

Because he can not see his other hand, he just flat out murders him.

Now I give respect to the fact that he didn't -- we want to look at the rendering.

But look at this.

Look how blatant and gross the kind of injustice is.

We talk about Minneapolis about 8:36 how Chauvin had his knee on this particular person's -- on George Floyd's neck.

But here in Columbus, you have a person who stands there with the same mentality.

The culture says just watch them die.

Five minutes, no rendering of aid.

No assistance.

But the reality is you have an execution and then you have murder.

So to say that, well, I thought my life was -- I mean, so we need to -- until we demonstrate that if you do the same criminal Things that citizens in our community do, you need to be held accountable.

You should be culpable.

The onnous of you should be to deal with the same kind of justice that others who do the same violent criminal offenses Throughout this nation, it should be the same consequences.

>> Reverend Kee we've lost his video.

Apologize for that.

Just a little housekeeping reverend, if you could check your video setting on your phone.

That might be the problem there.

But we appreciate your words, and they are strong words in deed.

Officer Tucker, qualified immunity, do you think it's too high a bar that grand juries face When trying to decide whether there is probable cause to charge a police officer with a crime using deadly force?

>> You know, I gotta be honest with you, qualified immunity is not something that I have extensively researched Or read upon.

When it comes to the career path I chose, I find that I'm constantly reading And researching, so there's no way to get to it all.

I would not feel comfortable giving an opinion on qualified immunity.

>> Let me ask you this in general, because police officers are faced with dangerous situation, Should you be afforded greater legal protection because of that?

That your judgment should be -- you should have a sort of more of the benefit of the doubt than the average person Because of your line of work when using deadly force.

>> Like anybody in a profession is going to get the benefit of the doubt based on their level of professionalism And their level of knowledge in that field as well as training and years on the job.

So I think in some sense, yes, but in some sense that should hold us at a higher level.

If we have a higher skill set and a higher level of training, I think that we should be expected to not only Make the best decision in that moment, but also have the abilities to accurately process all this information At a higher rate than the average civilian.

So that's kind of a catch-22 question.

Yes, do I think we should get a benefit of the doubt if everything lines up?

Yes.

But if everything doesn't line up, if we're trying to cover our own butts and we didn't do it right Then we should be given the benefit of the doubt when we do it right, but held to a higher standard when we do it wrong.

>> I want to get to an article you wrote where you talked about tactical communications.

It's a method in which officered to trained to assess a community based on their socioeconomic status.

Is a low-income community?

A working class community?

An upper income community.

Looking at the status rather than the race of a community?

Can you explain how that's a better way for officers to be trained >> Yeah, I'll explain that.

We already know there's a race issue.

There's no question about that.

But a lot of officers aren't as open to understanding that, which I think they should be.

One of the first thing I do when I train is I'm not there to tell them what they're doing wrong.

I'm there to give them an additional tool already to their belt.

The first tool I usually start with is I stop calling underresourced communities lower class or lower income.

That way some of that negative wording in there is out.

Also with everything community, regardless of race, there are hidden rules and hidden languages.

If you live in an underresourced community, what's the golden rule?

Treat people the way you want to be treated.

Middle class maybe -- what's respectful in middle class may not be in an underresourced community.

So what we as officers do is find ourselves traveling across the city.

You may go to a wealthy neighborhood to underresourced community to lower class community.

You find yourself trying to treat everyone the same because you don't understand the driving forces And hidden languages of each socioeconomic community you move between.

Now it's going to be way too hard to try to figure out every single culture, and what's respectful in every single culture.

But if you can get a basic knowledge of the community you're serving of what's particularly important to that community Of hidden languages.

Officers will stop being offended or scared but they will find themselves making better decisions for the community.

I don't work in Columbus, but if you have an officer from Hiking Hills that's never been in inner city Columbus They never been down there in Livingston and James and all those other areas.

And even further going towards the direction of downtown.

They're not going to understand what's going on.

My own community went black, but the white kid across the street had to go by the same rules I had to go by.

So he understood what it took to be in that neighborhood.

So I'm going to say this and then I'll stop.

I've been on calls where I've been with another Black officer who was from upper middle class.

And I've been with a white officer who was from the same hood I was from.

The community when we had to respond to an underresourced community, they understood the language that the white officer was speaking Because they could tell he was truly from there.

They wasn't trying to hear what the Black officer had to say because he came with a different mentality.

Even though he was the same color as they were.

So I found in that moment that the individual that understood them better was able to convey the message better.

>> Reverend Kee, I want to get your take on this.

It goes deeper than race.

It goes to socioeconomic background.

What is that role that plays in trying to heal this divide?

Understanding not perhaps the background, the color of the person's skin, but where they come from.

The challenges they face.

>> I think that's very important.

Sociological context is important.

Charles Darwin said we are products of our environment.

I think it's very important that we treat people with dignity.

I think that's a real major issue.

I think the reality is we were talking about technology and transparency.

There was just recently the George Floyd protests here in our city.

We see there was no transparency even though there was technology as Chief Jacobs has subscribed.

That these things are mending things together.

There's a major divide.

There's still no accountability for the kind of mistreatment and excessive force that was used Against citizens.

We have three of our most prominent leaders, congresswoman Joyce Beaty Councilman Shannon Harding, and then commissioner Kevin Bois.

They were part of this over excessive force culture that's going on in this city.

And even though we see it, I have not heard yet what any officers have been held accountable for that.

I've been at the same church for over 30 years.

We have a summerfest where we're cooking out.

We have -- it's community related.

And one significant thing that our members say every year, there's no connection with the police officers who drive by.

They are totally detached.

There is a major divide between policing and community, particularly in the urban context in our community.

And as the officer just mentioned about sociological context, you know, when you are from a particular place, Hiking Hills I think you referred to that.

That is a major problem.

We've had people who have never been in a classroom with African-Americans.

Then they come into our communities and don't want to be there.

And then they want to overpolice us while they serve and protect in other communities And then I don't need anyone to keep looking at me if I'm on the corner speaking to someone.

I'm a minister, I'm at the barbershop.

That's harassment if you keep driving by and I haven't done anything.

Sometimes people in our community -- talking about context -- that's all they have.

They don't need police officers coming and treating them in an inhumane, dehumanizing way.

We have a major divide.

>> I want to get chief Jacobs to respond to this.

The officer who killed Andre Hill and is now charged with his murder lives in Union County.

A good 40, 45 minutes outside of the city center of Columbus.

Is that a problem?

Should more officers live in the city they patrol?

>> I believe that a lot of people have done a lot of research, and I don't think that that is the make or break As to whether or not you're going to be a good police officer.

I grew up in Ashland County, it's an hour and a half north of Columbus.

And it was very different than Columbus, not at all urban.

Very subber ban.

And my thing is people need to have something in their heart that says I respect people.

I will treat them with dignity.

Treating anybody inhumanely is awful.

And wrong.

And I believe that if you haven't interacted with Black people or gay people or women, That that is something that we as a police academy and organization need to teach you how to do so if you haven't already learned that.

I hadn't been around many Black people until I got to Columbus.

I had some of course in our town, but I was on a track team with a Black coach and Black team members.

I learned an awful lot about Blacks by being around them.

And I think that that's important.

And yes indeed in our academy class -- so before any officer hits the street, they are in a room with people that are very different than them.

And one of the ways we try to get them to understand each other is to talk about their backgrounds.

Are they religious?

What holidays do they celebrate?

What was the culture they grew up in What kind of experiences did they have in their life?

We had farmers, and we had people like Angel That grew up in an urban setting and surrounded by gangs.

And really some terrible socioeconomic problems.

So we've got that variety.

I believe that type of diversity is actually good, because we can all learn from each other.

And all understand how to deal with the very diverse community that we have.

And so we do look for those opportunities to teach new officers and Veteran officers How to better communicate and engage with everybody that's in the community.

And Columbus has close to 200 languages that are spoken here.

We're not going to know all of them, but we know how we can interact with people that are different than us.

And it's an ongoing process.

It's not a once and done.

You're never going to have everybody familiar with all those things.

But the bottom line is teaching core values, and making sure people are treated with respect.

And treated within their constitutional rights.

That's the goal, that's what we strive for, and I think we often accomplish.

>> I think what the reverend is saying is there's dialogues, meetings and training.

But you really don't get to know somebody until you've literally walked the same path they have.

You've lived in the same neighborhood.

It's not just a seminar or discussion at work or even just eight hours at work.

Is there value from bringing officers in those communities and emphasis on bringing those officers From those communities on the force.

>> Absolutely.

We want as many people as we can get from as many diverse backgrounds as we can.

My big thing about recruiting especially Blacks, and Angel said it, it wasn't something necessarily sponsored by people he knew Or even something that was encouraged.

And we need to find especially Black community members to encourage, sponsor, mentor people within their community To join the ranks.

Women changed policing in my opinion.

They've been on patrol now for more than 40 years.

And I believe policing has adapted to their communication skills, their deescalation skills.

Because women don't man handle people the way men are able to because of their shear strength.

There's an awful lot we gain from diversity in the force.

>> Let's go to Clare Roth with another question.

>> A related question about the makeup of the division itself.

Diversity, equality, and inclusion efforts are typically pretty lackluster and even with a diverse force, we still see violence from cops.

How do panelist respond to the notion that more diverse doesn't necessarily mean less police violence.

>> Angel Tucker?

>> I respectfully disagree.

You're going to see violence, there would be no need for police if everybody did what they were supposed to do.

Unfortunately, within that you get officers that don't do what they're supposed to do That should be rooted out during the training process, unfortunately they're not.

Though I understand the question, I respectfully disagree.

I use myself as an example.

Diversity, I do my best to treat people the way I want them to treat my mother even if she were wrong.

There's many times I've taken people to the County jail and say, I'm not here to judge you.

If you call me two weeks from now after you get out and I show up to a call and you're in need of help, I'm going to help you.

I think there was the Chief that said something earlier, you have to want to do it.

The badge accentuates who you are.

If you're not the right person when you get that badge you're going to be an even bigger not that right person because you feel empowered to do so.

There's a neighboring projects in the area that I patrol.

And I would ride through there, and sometimes because I'm from the inner city You gotta have a certain look.

So sometimes you ride through there and you know you can't make eye contact too long or else it's a problem.

Or you can't walk up to the wrong person or else it's a problem but you gotta have that balance.

What I realize I drive through there and I'm staring at them and they're staring at me.

So one day I stopped.

And I said, we do this every day.

The truth of the matter is I want to get to know you.

So I reached out and shook their hand.

And I said let's make an opportunity here.

And to this day, I mean, I did that over five years ago.

To this day I can stop over in that neighborhood.

If I want to bring chips and pops for the kids I can do that.

It's helped a small bit, but it helped in that area.

>> Reverend Kee, would folks in your congregation, people in your neighborhood, would they be open to that?

If a police officer was driving through and popped out of his or her cruiser and wanted to talk?

What would that do to help heal that divide?

>> I think he's right on that it's imperative to have some reconciliation training between a community and police officers So this can work together.

If officers keep their windows up and drive by, I mean, that's policing.

But when you can get out and connect with the community, going to the library is one thing But actually going to the area where you say the neighbors have left We used to call it the neighborhood, but we say the neighbors left and it's just the hood.

But going out and treating people with dignity, and say hey man how are you doing.

That's your calling to be engaged with people.

It would transform things if you connect with the people that you there to serve and correct protect.

And then they could also -- trust is earned.

When trust is earned they can say this is what's going on, this is who is doing it.

When we start having that connection like that, reconciliation training of police and community coming together It can transform things.

So that's right on point.

We have to make a connection.

>> Chief Jacobs, with the demands on policing these days, How often can that occur?

How do we incentivize as a community As a division of police that that does occur?

Officers walk the beat Or at least get out of the cruiser and not have a cup of coffee but a short conservation with somebody.

>> This is a sea change that happened about 10-15 years ago Where in the past we felt like calls for service were paramount in being able to promptly respond And quickly respond to that call was more important than community relations, if you will.

And getting to the next call.

So don't dawdle after you've done with one call to stand around and talk or explain.

So over the last 10-15 years we've said, no, that's really not working.

And I used to answer our complaint line.

And I knew the No.

1 reason it rang was people didn't understand what the police did, why they did it.

And that explanation goes an awful long ways towards understanding.

And we have encouraged officers in the last 10-15 years to actually take their time.

We started a texting system so that we could give people feedback on the calls they got.

We believe that that hanging around, even though it might slow down a next call for service Because of manpower, is extremely important now to establishing that rapport that's so necessary to understanding and getting to Know our neighborhood.

So we've asked police officers, we've counted hours they've spent now in community engagement.

When we did the dialogues, we encouraged all the precinct officers to come to the meeting to meet neighbors that were there.

But also to go into those recreation centers spontaneously without an invitation and introduce yourself.

And having conversations that Angel very aptly portrayed as being so, so valuable.

And so it was a sea change.

And staffing is one of those things that is not within the power of the division of police.

It's maintained by City Council and the mayor's office.

How many people we have to do calls for the service.

That's extremely important to the victim waiting for the police officer to come.

But now we see the importance of slowing those down, and before, during and after call ls.

>> Are there some tasks that police should not be the first responders to?

I'm talking about a mental health claim.

Anything that deals with crime an officer should be involved in, but if it's a mental health issue -- that's one of the Arguments of defunding the police campaign.

Let's take away the task from police and give them to experts who are trained to handle somebody handling a mental Health episode.

What are your thoughts on that.

>> I worked on a project back in the nineties on differential police response.

And I truly believe that police aren't necessary for certain calls of sfls.

They can be taken over the phone or by people that are not necessarily sworn police officers.

We've looked for opportunities where we can add at least experts to that particular type of call for service.

We have mental health counselors riding with police now and responding to crises situation ls.

I believe that the police have been used for many of these different kinds of calls because we're the only 24-hour Seven day a week agency.

And cities and governments have not established such other organizations that are available.

And with a number of calls for service, there's always the potential for danger.

But sometimes seeing a police officer in uniform escalates people's concerns and fears.

And we're aware of that.

So there are some calls that we send people out that are not in a regular police uniform anymore.

We followup on drug overdoses, we followup on mental health calls.

We followup on domestic violence calls.

And see how the victim is doing.

Whether there's violation of protection orders.

There were a lot of things that the police were called for in the past.

Including what the schedule is for OSU game day.

When are they?

But being 24/7 is the key.

If you're going to have other people respond to different types of calls, then you need that 24-hour seven day a week coverage.

Because they happen all the time.

Police officers should and do receive an awful lot of training And there are many things that don't require police training to address.

>> One more question from our audience.

Go ahead Clare.

>> How police departments are addressing both traumas that police officers experience and trauma they inflict.

>> Officer Tucker, I'll let you handle that?

How do you handle both ends of that equation.

>> So that type of thing is not only being handled within agencies, and it's a good question.

Because this is actually a new field.

It's also being handled by some entities outside of the agency.

For example, my wife and I started a foundation outside of the police agency called The Charles Young Foundation.

First responders diagnosed with PTSD with youth from underserved Communities that are diagnosed with PTSD or CTS or officers with CTS.

We bring them in a group therapy or a safe place.

A lot of us experience a lot of the same traumas.

And these are not my words.

If you look at research, what we're finding is first responders and our youth from underresourced communities They are being diagnosed at higher rates than brave soldiers that are coming home from war zones.

Constant exposure to shooting and violence and sexual assaults.

And even witnessing these.

Children being beaten, it's going to take a toll.

So yes, officers are being affected by this.

Some things that we do to other people, that also affects them.

Things that we may not even do may affect them.

However, we're all dealing with trauma.

Like I said earlier, clash of the conditions.

I myself am diagnosed with PTSD and CTSD.

What if I run into someone else frommen underresourced community also doing that?

How do I know that something I said may have triggered them.

There's times where I had to let another officer know, I've just been triggered.

You may need to take over.

So to answer the caller's questions, there's outside entities that are really trying to bring Not only officers to the table with this, but community members as well.

If we heal together, then we're going to grow together.

And that'll help us better understand each other.

And now I'm not seeing a threat, I'm seeing someone who needs my help.

So as an officer I'm not going to be as quick to react in a violent manner or way.

The same way they tell us he's a prior soldier or she's a prior soldier and they're diagnosed with PTSD we take a little more time with them.

So that's one of the things being done as well as the agency itself is in the process -- When I say agency, I mean law enforcement in general as a whole.

I've been seeing a lot of white papers going around where that is a huge conversation And they're in the process of really trying to find something more universal to address this.

>> All right, we just have a couple of minutes left.

So I want to wrap up our discussion and basically ask to folks from Columbus, starting with you chief Jacobs.

How optimistic are you that this time we'll be able to heal the divide.

There's a lot of attention on this now because of cell phone cameras, social media, mainstream media attention.

How confident are you that we will be able to at least close this divide this time around?

>> It's absolutely necessary that we do.

I very strongly believe that people in our community should not fear the police.

And as long as that exists we need to keep on working on that.

But I do believe that it's possible.

I believe that talking to each other, better understanding, sorting out the details of certain circumstances And understanding how and why they might have happened are extremely important to Closing that divide.

I think racism is one of those things that a lot of people have not paid a lot of attention to Thinking that they're not racist but a lot of the events of the past year have certainly brought That to mind, and made it very clear that there's a long ways to go yet, so we have to keep working on it.

I believe there's an awful lot of inertia leading us to working towards a lot more community togetherness.

.

>> Reverend Kee, I'll ask you the same question.

It's topic No.

1.

Well, maybe topic No.

1B with the pandemic right now.

How optimistic are you that this will force change and we can close this divide.

>> I was part of the advisory commission to the mayor for the police chief.

And there was a guy by the name Perry Tamron.

He was part of 21st century policing under Barack Obama.

He mentioned the word it's our perception.

That is one thing that is causing the divide.

Andre Hill is dead, that's not a perception.

Casey Goodson Jr. Is dead, that's not a perception.

So to say it's my perception of mistreatment, in order to bridge this divide We need to bring someone from the outside who is not part of the institutional systemic racism Been the Columbus police department and a real agent of change To say, hey, we need to bring equality and bring us together.

And I'm optimistic if we bring the right outside person who does not have alliances to institutions and people And their camaraderie and friends we can get this thing right.

But we must believe able to understand one another, and not simply hear What's being said but not take to heart the ominous reality that people are being killed and they're not coming back.

Some of these things that are happening, we have to get this rielth right.

>> That's all time we have for today.

I hope we have deepened our understanding and found common ground.

We like to thank panelists, Jefferey Kee, kim Jacobs, and Angel Tucker.

Thank you to you all for joining us virtually.

And continuing our tradition here with dialogue.

As soon as this program ends, a screen will pop up -- don't go away.

It'll ask you to take a very short survey about our dialogue series.

Please take a moment to share feedback to help us improve future events Which we hope someday will be back in person.

And we hope you join us for our next virtual session soon.

Look for date and information to come.

Thank you very much and have a great day.