>>> OUR NEXT GUEST HAS EXTENSIVELY REPORTED ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND IS NOW SHARING HER VERY OWN PAINFUL STORY.

RACHEL LOUISE SNYDER IS A JOURNALISM PROFESSOR CHRONICLING HER DARK PAST AND THE LESSONS SHE HAS LEARNED IN A NEW MEMOIR AND SHE IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLORE THAT NEW STORY.

>> RACHEL LOUISE SNYDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

YOU KNOW, YOU ARE A DISTINGUISHED WRITER AND JOURNALIST WHO HAS WRITTEN ABOUT SOME DIFFICULT ISSUES , PARTICULARLY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

WHAT MADE THIS THE TIME TO DIG INTO YOUR OWN STORY?

>> I THINK ANYONE WHO HAS KNOWN ME FOR ANY PERIOD OF TIME AT ALL WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THAT THIS WOULD'VE BEEN MY FIRST BOOK.

I ALWAYS KNEW THAT I HAD AN UNCONVENTIONAL LIFE AND UNCONVENTIONAL BACKGROUND, BUT I JUST WAS MORE INTERESTED IN BEING A WRITER , SEEING THE WORLD, LEARNING THE STORIES OF OTHER PEOPLE, AND I THINK MY STEPMOTHER PASSED AWAY AND SOME BIG LIFE CHANGES HAPPENED THAT JUST PUT ME IN A REFLECTIVE PLACE AND IT SEEMED LIKE THE TIME WAS RIGHT.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THING THAT IS THE MOST ATTENTION- GETTING ABOUT YOUR BOOK.

>> THE MOST ATTENTION-GETTING THING I THINK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IS THAT YOUR LIFE CHANGED IN AN INSTANT WITH THE DEATH OF YOUR MOTHER.

YOUR MOM WAS JEWISH.

JUST A CLASSIC , LOVING MOM , YOU KNOW , SHE MADE YOU FEEL GREAT, BUT SHE DIED REALLY EARLY IN YOUR LIFE FROM BREAST CANCER.

YOUR DAD THEN MARRIES SOMEONE WHO IS INVOLVED WITH THIS VERY STRICT EVANGELICAL CHURCH AND SORT OF BRINGS YOU INTO THIS RADICALLY DIFFERENT EXISTENCE.

COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT?

AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT IT IS PAINFUL TO READ.

AND SO IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN PAINFUL TO LIVE.

>> OF COURSE, I AM TEMPTED TO CRACK A JOKE BECAUSE THAT IS MY WAY OF DEALING WITH THINGS.

WHAT DOESN'T DESTROY ME MAKES ME A BETTER WRITER.

BUT IT WAS HARD, AND YOU WOULD THINK THAT THE DEATH OF MY MOTHER --I WAS EIGHT, SHE WAS 35, WOULD BE THE BIG THING AND IT WAS IN CERTAIN WAYS, BUT IT SET IN MOTION THIS TOTAL UPHEAVAL.

WE MOVED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WE NO LONGER WENT TO TEMPLE OR CELEBRATED ANY OF THE HIGH HOLIDAYS .

WE NO LONGER HAVE THE SUPPORT SYSTEM OF OUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND OUR FAMILY IN PENNSYLVANIA WHERE WE LIVED AT THE TIME .

AND I THINK, FOR ME, THE MOST DISRUPTIVE, WAS THIS WOMAN REALLY KIND OF IMMEDIATELY BECOMING --I WAS SUPPOSED TO MAKE HER A STAND-IN FOR MY MOTHER.

I WAS PUBESCENT WHEN THEY MARRIED.

I WAS ABOUT 11 SO I WAS JUST ON THE VERGE OF , YOU KNOW, WHAT I REALLY BIG CHANGES FOR GIRLS AND I DID NOT FEEL LIKE I COULD TALK TO HER ABOUT ANY OF THAT.

THE MORNING OF THE WEDDING, WHICH WAS TWO MONTHS AFTER THEY STARTED DATING , YOU KNOW, MY FATHER BROUGHT ME DOWN TO THE CHURCH BASEMENT AND SAID RACHEL, MEET YOUR NEW MOTHER.

AND IT IS EASY FOR US TO LOOK AT THAT NOW, ESPECIALLY NOW THAT I AM A PARENT MYSELF, AND SAY WOW, THAT WAS SPECTACULARLY BAD PARENTING.

BUT, I ALSO THINK IN 1979, MY FATHER MUST HAVE FELT THIS PRESSURE TO NOT BE A SINGLE FATHER, LIKE HE MUST'VE FELT THAT HE WAS INADEQUATE AND EVERYTHING CHANGED, AND I REBUILD IMMEDIATELY.

I REBELLED AGAINST THE RELIGION.

I REBELLED AGAINST THE NEW FAMILY STRUCTURE.

I REBELLED IN EVERY WAY I COULD.

>> YOU AND THE OTHER KIDS WERE IMMEDIATELY SUBJECTED TO THIS KIND OF REGIMEN OF CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.

YOU CALLED AT THIS RITUALIZED CORPORAL PUNISHMENT AND TO TALK ABOUT HOW YOUR PARENTS WOULD LINE YOU UP OVER THIS OVERSIZED SOFA IN THE LIVING ROOM AND THEN YOU WOULD ASSUME THE POSITION, LEANING OVER AND BE SPANKED IN AN ASSEMBLY LINE, AND YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?

>> YEAH, CORPORAL PUNISHMENT WAS MANDATED BY THE CHURCH .

YOU KNOW, THEY BELIEVED THEY WOULD OF ONLY VERY RECENTLY, I HAVE LEARNED THAT THERE ARE SOMETHING LIKE 18 STATES IN THE U.S. WHERE CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IS ALLOWED IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SO YOU KNOW, WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT AFTER MY NEXT BOOK, BUT I MEAN, I AM HORRIFIED BY THAT, ABSOLUTELY HORRIFIED, AND I DID NOT --YOU KNOW, IT WAS SO NORMALIZED IN MY HOUSE THAT ALL IT DID WAS MAKE ME ANGRY.

IT DIDN'T CAUSE ME TO REFLECT.

IT DID NOT MAKE ME RESPECT MY PARENTS MORE OR FOLLOW GOD.

IT DID NONE OF THE THINGS THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO DO , AND IT WAS A FORM OF RITUALIZED TORTURE .

I WILL TELL YOU SOMETHING THAT I AM RETICENT TO SAY, BECAUSE I JUST DID THIS LAST WEEK, BUT I WAS IN CHICAGO HAVING DINNER WITH A WOMAN WHOM I HAVE USED AS A SOURCE IN MANY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE STORIES IN MY PREVIOUS BOOK, AND WE WERE DRINKING MARTINIS AND I SAID TO HER, DO YOU THINK I WAS A VICTIM OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE?

LIKE, I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT MYSELF THAT WAY, BECAUSE IT WAS SO ORDERLY AND RITUALIZED AND SHE SAID OF COURSE, ABSOLUTELY, AND IT HAS SHAKEN ME.

IT HAS BEEN LIKE 10 DAYS SINCE THAT CONVERSATION AND I AM THINKING ABOUT THAT LIKE EVERY HOUR.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRIKES ME ABOUT YOUR BOOK IS THAT YOU TALK ABOUT THESE JUST REALLY HORRIFYING , TO ME, THINGS, BUT YOUR DESCRIPTION OF IT IS SO BEAUTIFUL.

YOUR WRITING IS SO EXQUISITE AND LET ME JUST READ THIS PASSAGE WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT BEING SPANKED IN AN ASSEMBLY LINE.

YOU SAID I NEVER REMEMBER WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO EARN THIS PUNISHMENT, ONLY THE PUNISHMENT ITSELF.

THE ANGER THAT SWELLED LIKE A CONTAGION, FROM ONE OF US TO THE NEXT, WITH EACH BLOW, PALPABLE AS MUD UNDER YOUR TOES.

IT SNAKED ITS WAY INSIDE ME, CURLED ITSELF AROUND MY STOMACH AND INTO MICELLES, MOLDED ITSELF INTO A PERMANENT OCCUPANT THAT I CARRIED LIKE AN INVISIBLE'S ARSON.

WHEN DID YOU FIGURE THAT OUT?

DID YOU KNOW THAT EVEN THEN?

>> I KNEW THEN THAT IT MADE ME ANGRY.

I DIDN'T HAVE THE LANGUAGE FOR THE COMPLEXITY, AND I DID NOT HAVE THE POWER TO BE ABLE TO SORT OF FIGHT BACK INTELLECTUALLY.

I WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE WELL, NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT TEENAGERS SHOULDN'T SMOKE CIGARETTES, YOU KNOW.

I WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE THAT BUT I RECOGNIZE THAT ANGER, AND IT JUST STAYED IN ME FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT WRITING BOTH THIS BOOK IN MY PREVIOUS BOOK IS THEY ARE VERY EMOTIONALLY INTENSE BOOKS AND THE WRITING OF THEM IS EMOTIONALLY INTENSE AND I COULD ONLY READ POETRY WHILE I WAS DOING THE ACTUAL WRITING , AND I THINK IT IS SOMETHING ABOUT HOLDING A NARRATIVE IN YOUR HEAD, LIKE THERE IS ONLY ROOM IN THERE FOR ONE, AND SO SOME OF THAT LANGUAGE MIGHT COME FROM THE FACT THAT ALL I AM READING FROM MONTHS ON END IS POETRY.

POETRY GIVES YOU THIS ECONOMY OF LANGUAGE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO JUDGE.

THE JUDGMENT COMES FROM THE IMAGERY AND THE WAY YOU HAVE CONSTRUCTED SOMETHING .

BUT EVEN HEARING YOU READ THAT, IT BRINGS ME RIGHT BACK.

>> THIS IS WHERE YOUR STORY TAKES A CRAZY TURN.

YOU'RE KICKED OUT OF SCHOOL, THEN YOU'RE KICKED OUT OF YOUR HOUSE AT 16.

THE INEVITABLE HAPPENED.

YOU'RE HOMELESS.

YOU STUMBLED INTO BEING THE MANAGER OF A HEAVY METAL BAND AT 17.

HE WENT TO THE BARBIZON MODELING SCHOOL.

YOU GET YOUR GED, YOU GO TO COLLEGE, YOU GO TO GRAD SCHOOL AND THEN SOMEWHERE IN THERE, YOU TRAVEL ALL AROUND THE WORLD .

>> IT REALLY ADDED UP TO SOMETHING , TO ME, THAT WAS LIKE A LIFE IN WHICH YOU DID NOT HAVE TO HAVE NORMAL BOUNDARIES.

YOU DID NOT HAVE TO HAVE --YOU COULD LOOK AT THAT LIFE AND SAY OH MY GOSH, TERRIBLE THINGS HAVE HAPPENED, YES, AND THAT IS TRUE AND I'M NOT MINIMIZING THOSE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO ME, BUT ALSO THEY FREED ME.

THEY FREED ME TO THE FINAL KINDS OF THINGS AND LESS TRADITIONAL WAYS.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF WAYS THAT WE CAGE EACH OTHER IN, WE DEFINE WHAT SOMETHING IS SUPPOSED TO BE ACCORDING TO THE DEFINITION THAT COMES FROM SOMEWHERE OUTSIDE OF US AND FOR ME, I THINK HAVING ALL THOSE CRAZY TERNS JUST MEANT LIKE OH, I COULD JUST KEEP TURNING.

>> YOU SPENT YEARS IN CAMBODIA AND YOU WRITE ABOUT A TIME IN CAMBODIA FOR YOUR MOTHER'S GHOST APPEARED TO YOU AND GAVE YOU AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE AND I YOU TO READ JUST A PORTION OF THAT STORY .

>> I THOUGHT OF ALL THOSE TIMES WHERE I IMAGINE THAT HAVING A MOTHER WOULD HAVE INFUSED ME WITH SOME KNOWLEDGE, UNRAVELED SOME FEMININE HISTORY, ANSWERED MY MANY QUESTIONS.

QUESTIONS ABOUT DATING, ROMANCE, LOVE, RELATIONSHIPS, WOMANHOOD, CHILDREN.

THAT IS THE QUESTION.

THE ONLY QUESTION I REALLY HAVE NOW.

I MIGHT SOMEDAY REGRET NOT HAVING ONE , A TERRIBLE REASON TO HAVE A CHILD, AND WHEN YOU HAVE LOST ONE PARENT TO DEATH AND ANOTHER TO RELIGION, YOU UNDERSTAND AND I GOT DEEP WAY THAT THERE IS NO GUARANTEE YOU'LL MAKE IT THROUGH THE PIVOTAL YEARS OF YOUR OWN CHILD'S LIFE, SO WHAT DO YOU DO?

THIS, THIS HAS TO BE ONE OF THOSE IMPORTANT MOMENTS A MOTHER CAN HELP WITH.

AND SHE WAS MY MOTHER, MY ACTUAL REAL MOTHER AND I DID NOT KNOW HOW LONG SHE WOULD STAY, AND SO I ASKED HER THIS CRUCIAL QUESTION, PERHAPS THE MOST PRESSING QUESTION OF ANY WOMAN FACING DOWN THE FINISH LINE OF HER REPRODUCTIVE YEARS.

I WISH YOU WERE HERE, I SAID, TO HELP ME DECIDE IF I SHOULD HAVE A CHILD.

I HEARD HER, LIKE I COULD HEAR THE TRAIN BEHIND MY HOUSE.

I HEARD HER SAY, EVEN IF I WERE THERE, I COULD NOT HELP YOU WITH THAT.

AND I HAD SPENT MY WHOLE LIFE DEFINING MYSELF AGAINST THE DEFICITS OF HAVING A MOTHER FIGURE.

I WOULD KNOW HOW TO WALK IN FEET HEELS IF I HAD A MOTHER.

I WOULD KNOW WHEN SOMEBODY WAS HITTING ON ME IF I HAD A MOTHER.

AND HERE WAS MY OWN MOTHER SAYING YOU WOULD NOT KNOW THAT ANYMORE THAN YOU DO NOW IF I WERE THERE.

>> ANOTHER THING THAT I THINK STANDS OUT IS THAT HOW MUCH FOR MEN, FINDING SAFETY IN THE WORLD IS NOT CONSIDERED A PRIORITY.

MEN ARE PRESUMED TO BE SAFE UNTIL THEY ARE NOT AND WOMEN ARE PRESUMED TO BE UNSAFE UNTIL THEY ARE.

WHERE IT WAS FORCED , TO BE SURE.

YOU WERE FORCED INTO IT, BUT YOU'RE SEEKING OF ADVENTURE, OF YOUR EMBRACING THE WORLD IS WHAT BROUGHT YOU SAFETY AND I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT ABOUT THAT.

I JUST WONDER IF YOU HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT.

>> AFTER MY MOTHER DIED, WE GREW UP BEING TOLD OVER AND OVER THAT THE WORLD WAS AN UNSAFE PLACE.

IT WAS FULL OF PEOPLE WHO WERE SEARCHING, PEOPLE WHO WERE EMPTY, THAT THEIR SOULS WERE YEARNING FOR GOD AND WE NOT ONLY GREW UP IN A PLACE WHERE WE WERE LUCKY ENOUGH TO ACCESS THAT, BUT WE GREW UP THE CHOSEN ONES IN THAT PLACE .

IN OTHER WORDS, AMERICA.

ONCE I BEGIN TO TRAVEL, I WENT ON A SEMESTER AT SEA, WHICH SOME OF YOUR VIEWERS MIGHT KNOW IS A SEMESTER LONG PROGRAM WHERE YOU ARE ON A SHIP AND YOU TRAVEL AROUND FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY AND YOU'RE NOT TRAVELING TO ROME AND PARIS.

THOSE ARE WONDERFUL PLACES, BUT YOU'RE TRAVELING TO PLACES LIKE PLACES THAT ARE EDGIER, AND CERTAINLY MORE FOREIGN.

THERE IS A VERY DIFFERENT FOREIGN FEELING TO KYOTO THAN THERE IS TO LONDON, IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN.

AND SO, IT UPENDED COMPLETELY EVERYTHING I THOUGHT I KNEW ABOUT BEING AN AMERICAN.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LEARNED BEING OUT THERE IN THE BIG WIDE WORLD IS THAT CULTURE IS EVERYTHING.

CULTURE IS NOT JUST THE FOOD YOU EAT IN THE ENTERTAINMENT YOU IMBIBE.

IT IS YOUR SENSE OF JUSTICE.

IT IS YOUR SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG.

IT IS YOUR MORAL UNDERPINNING , AND YOU KNOW, IT IS EVERYTHING FROM JURISPRUDENCE TO PHILOSOPHY, AND SO BEING ABLE TO DISENTANGLE THAT WAS SO FREEING FOR ME, BECAUSE I WAS ABLE TO SAY OH, THIS IS THE BOX THAT I CALL CULTURE AND MY WAY OF LOOKING AT IT IS MY WAY, BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS THE RIGHT WAY OR THE ONLY WAY.

>> THERE IS SO MUCH WE COULD TALK ABOUT WITH THIS BOOK.

THERE ARE SO MANY IDEAS IN IT, BUT I'M GOING TO ASK TO KIND OF CONCLUDE WHERE WE STARTED, WHICH IS, YOU LOST TWO MOTHERS.

YOUR BIOLOGICAL MOTHER, YOUR MOM, WHEN YOU WERE EIGHT AND THEN YOUR STEPMOTHER, WHO FRANKLY WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE ONE COULD ARGUE TORTURED YOU .

TOWARD THE END OF HER LIFE, YOU TOOK CARE OF HER.

COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THAT WAS POSSIBLE , FOR YOU TO OFFER THAT FORGIVENESS TO SOMEONE WHO HAD HURT YOU SO MUCH ?

>> IT'S TOUGH.

I HAVE HAD SO MANY PEOPLE WRITE TO ME AND SAY I COULD HAVE NEVER DONE THAT.

SHE WAS ALSO BEING OPPRESSED AND HER WEIGHT BY THAT CHURCH AND BY MY FATHER, WHO WERE CONSTANTLY REMINDING HER AS A WOMAN THAT SHE WAS SECOND-TIER HIM BECAUSE HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE HOUSE.

THEY BOTH CHANGED BY THE TIME THEY BOTH DIED, I HAVE TO SAY.

MY FATHER WAS DOING ALL THE COOKING AND ALL THE CLEANING.

SHE DID NONE OF IT , AND THAT IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE MANY OTHER EXAMPLES, BUT WHEN I HAD A CHILD, MY CHILD WAS BORN IN BANGKOK AND WHEN I HAD A CHILD, I REALLY THOUGHT ABOUT MY PARENTS IN THE WAY THAT YOU DO, AND THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY TERRIBLE PARENTING THAT I HAD.

BUT WHY IS THAT MY DAUGHTER'S FAULT, RIGHT?

I'M NOT GOING TO PASS ALONG WHATEVER RESIDUAL ANGER I FEEL TO HER.

IF SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM, THAT'S FINE, BUT IT'S NOT MY DECISION TO KEEP HER FROM THEM AND SO SHE WAS CLOSE TO THEM, ESPECIALLY MY FATHER, WHO DIED AT THE START OF COVID, AND SO BRINGING HER INTO THEIR LIVES ONCE OR TWICE A YEAR, I WOULD GO OUT AND VISIT THEM, BROUGHT BACK TO SOMEPLACE WHERE WE COULD FIND SOME COMMON GROUND.

WE DID NOT AGREE WITH EACH OTHER RELIGIOUSLY, POLITICALLY, SOCIALLY.

A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS, THAT WE LOVED EACH OTHER AND WHEN SHE GOT SICK, SHE HAD COLORECTAL CANCER, I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY, BUT I AM THE KID THEY CALLED.

THEY COULD'VE CALLED HER --SHE HAD TWO KIDS FROM HER FIRST MARRIAGE.

I AM THE ONE THEY CALLED AND I THINK IT WAS SOMETHING ABOUT HAVING LOST A MOTHER.

SHE WANTED TO ALLOW ME THE SPACE TO FIND HER, IN A WAY.

LIKE NOT IN A CONSCIOUS WAY, BUT I REMEMBER SITTING DOWN WITH HER NINE MONTHS BEFORE SHE DIED AND I SAID CAN I ASK YOU WHAT CANCER FEELS LIKE IN YOUR BODY, AND THIS IS A WOMAN WHO WAS VERY QUIET, REALLY SHY, AND SHE TALKED FOR TWO HOURS WITHOUT STOPPING.

COMBINED, AND I REALIZED SHE NEEDS TO TALK ABOUT THIS AND SHE IS ALSO GIVING ME A GIFT OF CONNECTING AS WOMEN, CONNECTING THROUGH GENERATIONAL PAIN.

I FELT IN SOME WAY LIKE SHE WAS CONNECTED TO MY REAL MOTHER AND WE TALKED FOR THE NEXT NINE MONTHS.

I WOULD SIT WITH MY COMPUTER AND TAKE NOTES AND I THINK I ASKED ALL THOSE QUESTIONS THAT YOU NEVER GET TO ASK SOMEONE WHO IS DYING, LIKE ARE YOU SCARED OF DEATH?

WHAT DO YOU SEE RIGHT NOW IN FRONT OF YOU?

ALL THOSE THAT JUST EVERY ARTIFICE WAS GONE , AND I GUESS IT IS SOMETHING ABOUT GOING INTO DANTE'S SEVENTH OR EIGHTH CIRCLE AND COMING BACK OUT AND FINDING BREATH AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR SHARING THIS GIFT WITH US.

RACHEL LOUISE SNYDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

IT WAS REALLY A PLEASURE.