Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, DEI and racial equity in education leads us to talk about how important African-centered learning is and how hip hop impacts learning.

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[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I am Kenia Thompson.

DEI has been a buzz term for many years now and as we watch our society emerge into a space where companies and organizations are held accountable for their actions, many really challenge claims of diversity and inclusion, requiring those that wear the badge to do more than just check the box, but where do we stand with this effort when it comes to our educational experiences?

To help answer that question, We welcome to the show Dr. Noni Davis, Founder and Director of Saint Sya Academy, Leonardo Williams, Durham City Council Member of Ward 3, and Stephanie Reed, Founder/Director of Aspire2Hire Personal & Professional Development, Inc.

Welcome to the show.

Stephanie, I want to start off with you.

In terms of education, what does diversity look like?

- In education, I think that diversity really requires two things, support and care and giving knowledge to the students in the classroom, as well as outside of the classroom.

But in my experience, I've also learned that diversity, equity, and inclusion work in education also means caring for colleagues, ensuring that policies that are written are equitable, ensuring that our hiring practices are also equitable, particularly for racial equity, but also other forms of diversity.

So there's a lot of management of the diversity that education already has that makes up the work of DEI in education.

- And Dr. Noni, when we talk about stereotypes and misconceptions in the classroom, I know that I've had the experience of my students going, or my kids going, through mislabeling.

What do those opportunities look like for acceptance in the classroom when we talk about DEI and inclusion?

- Well, it's culturally responsive instruction for me, or culturally responsive environment, where our students are seen as individuals, there's an acknowledgement that there are cultural differences, differences in approaches to learning, differences in expectations, but there is a broad range, you've got multiple learning styles.

And unfortunately in the classroom, we are taught these in advanced education, you get your master's degree programs and your doctoral programs, but the actual implementation of these concepts is lacking in the classroom.

So I believe that teachers need to be more determined to implement stratified learning, embracing the cultural differences of the children, celebrating those differences in the classroom and not creating this hierarchy in education, but making sure that you're teaching to students across the board versus this stratified learning that we have in the classroom that's pervasive right now.

- Leonardo, I know that you are currently a council member, but in your past life you were a principal, correct?

And I know that there are responsibilities that teachers have to uphold racial equity in the classroom.

How did you make sure that that was something that happened throughout the board at the school that you were a principal?

- Well, good morning, Kenia.

Thank you for having us.

And Dr. Noni hit it right on the head, differentiated teaching in learning, being culturally responsive.

It can't be just a commodity.

It can't just be a thing.

It has to be culture in which we live.

It has to be a culture in which we actually instruct.

And that is the most sensitive part, transaction that happens in the building, that transaction between teaching and learning, educator and educatee, student.

So that was what I lived every day, and it starts from the top and it starts from the bottom and you have to meet in the middle to just explode that culture.

And that's not just in the classroom or in the school building, that's everywhere.

I actually live that on the council right now and appreciate the multiple diverse perspectives.

- For sure.

You know, there's a need that we have to understand that our students require from us, even though they don't know how to label it, what to call it.

Stephanie, when we talk about including that in the classroom and the expectations the students have, how do we set that expectation and meet it, especially with what you do with Aspire to Hire?

- Absolutely, Kenya.

I think the point has already been made that there has to be culturally relevant context and text in the classroom.

But those expectations have to be set by administrators.

Those expectations have to be set and met during the hiring process and then throughout the life cycle of the employee, right?

And this is also relevant in corporate and in education.

If there are no performative measures, or performance measures I should say, to prevent performative measures that people are held accountable for ensuring that they practice culturally relevant pedagogy, that they acquire cultural competence in and outside of the classroom, because really relationship is also a piece of this that we have to talk about as well.

If teachers and educators of all type don't care for the students, it's going to feel artificial to the students.

It will be inauthentic.

So there has to be, I think, a balance between the expectations set by admins, but also for the care and understanding and empathy that is provided to the students.

- Indeed.

And Dr. Nani, I know at Saint Sya some of the challenges are finding community support.

I think a lot of times when we work to really push forward DEI and racial equity efforts, we sometimes go a less threatening route, right?

And they're called whitening methods for acceptance within our community.

Talk to us about how detrimental that can be to the true efforts around creating space for our students.

- Well, I'm gonna give a quick example, to me, that was hilarious.

I had my students read "A Raisin in the Sun" last year at the end of the year, my high schoolers.

And when we came to the scene where Beneatha had cut her hair and was wearing Afro and the commentary in the book was like, "She looked like a monkey," da, da, da.

My students were like, what?

'Cause everyone in the classroom had their hair in a natural, you know, afro, locks, braid.

So we've come a long way, 'cause our children do not necessarily identify with this idea that my hair has to be permed, or I have to change my look to accommodate someone else or to validate myself.

But we still have the work to do, in my opinion, in the curriculum, we have to move away from this idea that European culture was the framework for which we all operate.

Those were the explorers.

Those are the people who discovered places.

Those were the people who created science.

Those were the people who developed language.

Those are the people, you know, we just have to get away from that.

And then make sure, I have made it my life purpose to study and to show myself approved, which is the name of the St. Sya Academy, right?

Study to show yourself approved.

So my children know African explorers.

They are aware that Asian, Chinese people were also exploring across the ocean.

That my students understand that there was trading that was occurring in the Indian Ocean, The Atlantic Ocean the Pacific Islanders were also traveling.

And, you know, then when we come to literature, my students last week for their social studies class, were introduced to the Ebo script, were also introduced, I had them introduced to the Metu Neter, which is the Egyptian hieroglyphs, they learned how to write their names in these letters, the Mende script.

So they understand that we had our own writing systems.

- There's a lot that they go through.

You know, I know from firsthand experience 'cause my kids, they are couple of your students.

And so I understand there's a lot that they go through to educate themselves on their true history, their true history.

- Their true history.

- Yes - Yes.

- There aren't many K through 12 schools that lead with culture, but we are lucky enough to have one right here in the triangle.

Saint Sya Academy is an African centered academic experience that creates a nurturing environment for students of African descent based out of Durham, North Carolina.

Their objectives is to promote self knowledge and a purposeful life, intellectual stimulation, and high academic achievement as well as a commitment to social justice for the worldwide community of tomorrow.

We're fortunate to have Saint Sya's founder, Dr. Nani, here with us today.

Question to you, Dr. Nani, tell us about Saint Sya and what inspired you to create this space?

- So 20, oh no, not 25 years.

I guess my mother worked for 25 years in the public school system.

She taught at East End and she taught at E.K.

Powe and her experiences there were, you know, completely different, you know?

East End is in the middle of a African American community that it would be considered [mumbles] community where at E.K.

Powe was a duke community.

And so she was just alarmed by the extreme differences in the communities, the amount of money that was invested.

But she was also alarmed at the differences in the way the students were treated.

And so in her frustration, she retired early and one of her heroes was Mary McLeod Bethune, and she said, if Mary could do it, I could do it.

And so Saint Sya, I was also homeschooling my children and she saw how effective I was.

And so she said, you know what, let's combine our skill, our talents here, our resources, and our gifts here and make and create this space.

And so we started with seven students, three of them were mine and we built so in 1996 we started here and now my daughter teaches.

So we have three generations of educators, and my daughter-in-law too.

And then my grandchildren are here.

So that's four generations of families, of my family who are involved in this space.

But it was for our children, we were out of frustration for how they were being treated in the public school system, and we knew we could do it because our ancestors had done it, have done it already, so.

- Indeed, indeed.

And it's a beautiful solution.

Leonardo, as a council member, how is racial justice part of the landscape objectives, of objectives in North Carolina?

- Yeah, so that's a very deep question because we live the result of it every single day.

You know, I'll use transportation for example, we're looking at, you know, some transit across our region because it's time for us to start functioning as a region with the job growth, but however, the most expensive part of that transit line is in Durham, and even within Durham, you know, you look at the great separation which is like, you know, where the train crosses a street.

In West Durham, they're really nice, in East Durham, they're dilapidated, and then you break that down to the communities, well, the western side of Durham is a lot more white, whereas the east side of Durham is a lot more Black and Hispanic, and that is just, that is transportation, that's just one policy.

Imagine how crime comes about, imagine how the poverty comes about, and imagine how, you know, crime and poverty reflect behavior in our schools.

Oh wow, look where our schools are.

When I was Teacher of the Year in Durham, I was selected to be on the committee to select the next Teacher of the Year, and I went across the county, and one school I went in in the northern part of Durham had carpet floors, carpeted floors, every kid had a computer and there were about five parents that were volunteering in the classroom, and the carpool line was extremely long.

When I went on the east side of Durham, there were buckets in the hallway, water dripping, you know, the school was dilapidated, and I was like, you'd be surprised that you're in the same county.

Our school system fixed that, they did, but those are some of the things we have to be conscious of on a daily basis, and if not, it'll continue to be business as usual.

So we're really conscious of, you know, just making sure that we're equitable in all of our resources.

That is racial justice.

- Yeah, and that's good to know that the state's aware of that, government's aware, because you do see stark differences in these schools.

Stephanie, we find that students perform based off of how their environment is, right?

And so when we're talking about what Leonardo mentioned about the differences in the schools across the track, what does that do to their understanding of their culture and their acceptance of culture?

- Wow, I'm glad you asked that question, because people I think take for granted, from the youngest of our students all the way through to our oldest students who are in college and graduate education, they need to be affirmed in their experiences, and that affirmation doesn't have to only exist in the classroom, it should exist in the environment in which they live and learn, and they need to be able to see collaborative efforts.

I love the fact that you have a City Council member on this show today, I love the fact that you have an African-centered educator.

We are all part of a larger community, and students have to see us, we have to model for students what we are also attempting to teach them, and we also, one thing I really wanna make sure I share is that it's important for all of us, at whatever angle we enter into education, that we understand that students are not entering the educational system as empty vessels.

They too hold knowledge, whether that knowledge comes from their parents, whether it comes from the street, if they're, you know, those who are not necessarily in the same, in a, you know, double parent home or they're in a urban environment and they're outdoors more, I think I'm hearkening back to my, [laughs] my childhood where we used to spend a lot of time outside, or if they're gamers, right, these children have knowledge and we are supposed to facilitate education with them and not assume that we are the holders of knowledge and we're only giving them information.

We should all be sharing information, so they need to see us do that as community members, as educators, as clergy in the community, all of us have to demonstrate what that looks like for our students, so that they know how to do it and they understand what it feels to be affirmed in their education.

- Indeed, indeed.

Dr. Noni, about 45 seconds here left on this topic, but you shared some of the activities that you guys do to bring awareness to our students, reading certain books.

Talk about some other activities that support African-centered learning and seeing themselves in education.

- Well, we engage in rights of passage, so every third Friday, our students are led through a rights of passage session where the girls are separated from the boys and you know, just to have conversations and do activities that reinforce a strong identity or sense of, you know, of who they are.

We have Jonkonnu which is at Stackville which we participate in which is addressing, well a historical reenactment of what happened during the 1800s, the early 1800s during enslavement.

We also have a thing called For Journeys, we hopefully will be able to do that this year, where have the children, we do, we rent a 55-passenger bus and take the children to, like this year, to Wilmington where we will explore African American history in that location.

We also have theatrical productions at the end of the school year.

We have Africa Day in October where we-- - We could go on and on, really.

[laughs] - Yes, a lot.

All right, so that's it.

- There's so much that you guys do.

[Dr. Noni laughs] - Yeah, no, there's so much, and I wish we had more time to talk about all the activities, but there's so much that you guys do and I know that music is a big part of that, and when we talk about hip-hop pedagogy, it really is a thing.

Research has found that hip-hop has the potential to connect students to important subjects they might otherwise dismiss.

It's an innovative approach but ends up providing another method of connection for students.

Stephanie, at Aspire2Higher, you guys have done a really good job with incorporating music, hip-hop in particular, with academics.

Tell us, what does that do for students?

- I think it does wonders for students, but more importantly, I think what it is does is provide exposure, and when we talk about hip-hop in affirming ways as opposed to talking about hip hop on the margins of society like it's not part of American culture, we are affirming that hip hop provides things to our students.

It's not something that's taking from them.

So hip hop in and of itself is a culture.

So if we approach it as a form of study like an anthropologist would, we could break it down to students in that way.

At Aspire to Hire, for instance we host a monthly podcast called Hiphop is Higher Ed because I find that hip hop doesn't act as a vehicle for education.

Hip hop is education.

In hip hop music, artists are providing stories, talking about experiences and they are giving knowledge to others but it also provides a form of self empowerment.

I talk to students all the time about how they identify as hip hop heads.

I also try to expose people, not just students, but everyone through my podcasting and through community programs like a hip hop symposium, I've been planning that hip hop is also now a form of a way that people make a living.

So it is a career and it is, there is professionalism, scholarship, and brilliance in hip hop.

So I think hip hop plays a major role in the formative years of our students but also as they become young adults as well.

- Indeed and music is therapy, right?

And when we talk about how we used to, our ancestors used to gather and play music, that that was a form of communication and therapy.

Leonardo, I know that you were a former band director.

You know, you are a man of many hats, apparently.

I used to also, I used to play in the band.

I used to be in orchestra and I know the value in musical education.

What are your thoughts on the impacts that hip hop can have on Black students' education?

- You know, I, shout out the NCCU for formalizing hip hop as an actual class and, you know, a content, you know context worth studying with Mike Wonder.

We have to meet our students where they are.

And if I'm being at all honest, I know education.

I do know education very well.

Our education curriculum in our schools, the way we do school is outdated to the growth and current day intellectual status of our students.

So we have to start there.

We have to start with recognizing that.

And, you know, as I used to tell my students you know, Jay-Z said, go further, go farther.

Is that not why we here?

If not then go harder.

You know, we have to be diligent, you know as educators and our students have a lot to offer us because hip hop is just simply poetry explaining the livelihood and experiences on a daily basis that our kids go through and they're going through a lot on a daily basis.

And we should be able to listen to that.

Formalize that into an instruction.

- Indeed.

We could have a whole show on hip hop's impact on culture, for sure.

- Absolutely.

[laughs] - Dr. Noni I know that my kids personally they enjoy the musical component at St. Sya so much.

It's probably what I hear about the most.

Tell us about the meaning behind learning African music and rhythms.

And what did this music mean to our ancestors?

- Well, we know that as you stated earlier that they used it for communication purposes.

They used it as celebration.

They used it to remember and to mourn their, the losses.

They used it to welcome people.

You know, at the songs that we teach during the Jakanew are African songs that with the, you know, Yotoba songs, traditional of of traditional songs that you can see the connection between the hip hop and the jazz and just the, you know the creative genius of African people, the creative genius.

I took drumming and that's when I realized the swing of the music with us when we're all sitting together playing the dune dunes and the jambays together.

So there you, it just moves you.

And we even, we meditate in the morning to all sorts of genres of music with the students.

But hip hop is just an extension of our jazz, of our blues, of our rhythm, of our rag time, of slave songs, you know, and then the rhythms of Africa, it's the newest, the latest thing that we have going on.

Unfortunately, I don't know about some of the stuff that we have right now but we know that this is our most recent genre.

I mean, a genre of exceptional creativity.

And so we, here we play, the African drums for the children, create their own rhythms as well.

As we go through our meditation in the morning, our harambe.

- Yeah.

And it's a beautiful thing to hear.

Stephanie you know, I think part of our responsibility is is also changing the narrative around what others interpret our music to be.

Right?

And so talk to us about how you help with that effort.

- Absolutely.

I have taken it upon myself.

Don't ask me why.

But [laughs] to use that as a mission in my work I find that people tend to disregard hip hop, culturally, musically, even scientifically in order to produce some of the music, you must be a sound engineer.

And in order to be a sound engineer you must be at the base an engineer.

So there is a lot of value that hip hop provides.

Are we challenged by some of what we see being propped up in the media around hip hop?

Yes, but that is why I then think that with Aspire to Hire I try to create the spaces like hiphop symposiums.

A symposium was originally, to my knowledge, held as a conference, a professional conference that people would hold like doctors and scientists to talk about the work that they're doing, the research.

We can do the same thing within hip hop.

Hip hop provides us the same platform.

So we can discuss social issues.

We can discuss science, we can discuss politics.

- Indeed.

- And we do.

So that's what I do with Aspire to Hire through the podcast and through the hip hop symposium.

- Indeed.

And thank you all for your work so much.

Stephanie Reed, Dr. Noni Davis, and Leonardo Williams.

Thank you for being with us today.

- Thank you for having us.

- I wanna thank today's guests for joining us.

We invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum, or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Kenia Thompson.

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