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NOTES NOTES NOTES ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST, AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR," 89.7.

TONIGHT: RACIAL GENERATIONAL TRAUMA.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC AND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF, AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

IT STARTED BEFORE THE PEOPLE OF AFRICAN DESCENT ARRIVED ON THESE SHORES-- TRAUMA TO THE PSYCHE AND SPIRIT EXACERBATED THROUGH THE DEHUMANIZING YEARS OF SLAVERY, YEARS WHEN SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS PASSED ON THEIR DESPAIR AND PAIN.

SOCIAL SCIENTISTS NOW LINK THE COMMUNAL HARM TO THE POST- TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER SUFFERED BY RECENT AND CURRENT GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.

AND, CAN THERE BE HEALING IF THE SOURCE OF THE TRAUMA NEVER GOES AWAY?

JOINING US: GARY BAILEY, THERAPIST AND ASSISTANT DEAN FOR COMMUNITY ENGAGEMENT AND SOCIAL JUSTICE AT THE COLLEGE OF SOCIAL SCIENCE, POLICY AND PRACTICE AT SIMMONS UNIVERSITY; DR. C. SHAWN McGUFFEY, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AND THE DIRECTOR OF AFRICAN AND AFRICAN DIASPORA STUDIES AT BOSTON COLLEGE; KIM McLARIN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AND GRADUATE PROGRAM DIRECTOR OF WRITING, LITERATURE AND PUBLISHING AT EMERSON COLLEGE; AND DR. CHARLES DANIELS, THERAPIST AND FOUNDER OF "FATHER'S UPLIFT," AN ORGANIZATION AIMED AT HELPING MEN TRANSITION INTO FATHERHOOD.

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Crossley: GARY I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU.

YOU HEAR RACIAL GENERATIONAL TRAUMA, YOU TRY TO GET YOUR HEAD AROUND IT.

BUT WHAT I'VE COME TO LEARN FROM DOING, PREPARING FOR THIS SHOW IS THAT IT'S NOT PSYCHOLOGICAL ONLY.

IT IS ALSO PHYSIOLOGICAL AND SOMETHING CALLED EPIGENETICS HAS A PART TO PLAY.

WOULD YOU PLEASE DESCRIBE WHAT THAT IS?

>> SURE.

ETCHI GENETICS REALLY COMES OUT OF THE WORK OF DR. RACHEL YAHUDA, SHE'S ONE OF THE LEADING EXPERTS IN POSTTRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER.

AND WHAT SHE BEGAN TO INVESTIGATE AND INTERROGATE, WAS LOOKING AT THE IMPACT OF TRAUMA ON GENETICS.

AND REALLY BEGINNING TO THINK ABOUT TRAUMA AS A GENETIC MARKER.

AND HER ENTREE INTO LOOKING AT THIS WORK WITH THESE SURVIVORS, SHE'S JEWISH AND LOOKING AT SURVIVORS OF THE HOLOCAUST.

AND REALLY SEEING CORRELATIONS BETWEEN SURVIVORS AND INTERGENERATIONAL TRAUMA AND IMPACT ON GENETIC MARKERS ACROSS THE SURVIVORS.

I REMEMBER LISTEN INCH LISTENING TO HER WORK, A DISCUSSION ON HER SHOW ON BEING DRIVING TO THE CAPE AND LITERALLY PULLING MY CAR OVER.

BECAUSE I THOUGHT, THIS IS, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE IMPACT OF TRAUMA AS IT RELATES TO THE HOLOCAUST, WHAT THEN DOES THIS LOOK LIKE IN TERMS OF THINKING ABOUT 400 YEARS OF TRAUMA ON GENETIC MARKERS?

AND WHAT HAS BEEN PASSED DOWN ACROSS GENERATIONS AND THE PIECE THAT WE DON'T TALK ABOUT IS WHAT HAPPENED WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE BEING MATED, IF YOU WILL, TO CREATE NEW SUPPLIES OF BODIES?

SO TRAUMA BEING MATED WITH TRAUMA, BEING PASSED ACROSS GENERATIONS, EXPLAINS A LOT ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED 18, 19 GENERATIONS LATER.

IN TERMS OF THE NUMBING, DEPRESSION, THE CHALLENGES AROUND BUILDING INTIMATE RELATIONSHIPS, THE -- WHAT I TALK ABOUT IS THE FLATTENED AFFECT AS A PRESENTATION OF TRAUMA, AND THE WORK OF RESMA MENACHEM WHO TAKES DR. YAHUDA'S WORK EVEN FURTHER, WHAT WE TALK ABOUT BEING A CULTURAL NORM IS REALLY WHAT TRAUMA LOOKS LIKE IN ACTION IN THE HERE AND NOW.

>> Crossley: LET ME PICK UP A LITTLE BIT WITH YOU SHAWN AND THAT IS, GARY JUST GAVE US A SENSE OF SOME OF WHAT WE WOULD SEE OUT HERE IN THE WORLD.

IF WE SEE TRAUMATIZED -- PEOPLE WHO ARE -- FOLKS WHO ARE INHERITORS IF YOU WILL OF RACIAL TRAUMA.

WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU SAY IS SOMETHING THAT DEMONSTRATES THAT?

>> WELL, WE SEE LOTS OF PTSD SYMPTOMS THAT THEN RACIAL TRAUMA, ANXIETY, AROUSAL, AVOIDANCE TECHNIQUES YOU SEE WITH OTHER FORMS OF TRAUMA.

I THINK THINK ABOUT WHAT IS NOT ONLY THE IMPACT OF THIS TRAUMA, THAT'S PRODUCING THIS TRAUMA LIKE HOW DO WE THINK ABOUT RACIAL TRAUMA NOT ONLY AS AN INDIVIDUAL IMPACT, BUT THE STRUCTURES THAT PRODUCE THESE SORT OF TRAUMA THAT WE HAVE COMING.

SO PART OF WHAT MY OWN WORK, WHAT PRODUCES TRAUMA?

SO NOT ONLY ONE OF THE SYMPTOMS OF TRAUMA BUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY PRODUCING TRAUMA THROUGH GENERATIONS OF TRAUMA BEING LIKE THE STRUCTURE OF YOUR COMMUNITY, THE STRUCTURE OF YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, THE STRUCTURE OF THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM, THE STRUCTURE OF OUR POLICING SYSTEM.

AND THEN HOW THAT PRODUCES VERY SIMILAR SYMPTOMATOLOGY AS PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCE OTHER FORMS OF COMPLEX TRAUMA, TRAUMA THAT IS NOT JUST ONE TIME BUT HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND THEN WITNESSING THAT TRAUMA AND THEN PASSING ON THAT WITNESSING TO OTHER GENERATIONS AS WELL.

>> Crossley: SO KIM, LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW YOU EXPERIENCE THAT.

SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS GENERATIONAL TRAUMA BEING TRANSFERRED DOWN, AND BECOMING A PART OF THE CULTURE.

SO WHETHER OR NOT YOU'RE EVEN AWARE OF IT, IT'S NOW EMBEDDED IN THE DNA.

BUT NOW IT'S ALSO CULTURAL TO BE TRAUMATIZED.

HOW HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED THAT?

>> OH, BOY, YEAH, THIS IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT TOPIC AND IT'S SO COMPLEX.

AND I SEE THIS, THIS IS SOMETHING I THINK A LOT ABOUT BECAUSE I SEE THAT IN MY STUDENTS.

I WORRY ABOUT IT WITH YOUNG PEOPLE.

AND STUDENTS OF COLOR AND PARTICULARLY BLACK STUDENTS IN A PREDOMINANTLY WHITE INSTITUTION WHICH OTHERWISE MIGHT NOT SEEM AS BAD AS OTHERS INSTITUTIONS CERTAINLY HISTORICALLY, AND YET, THEIR REACTIVENESS TO QUOTE UNQUOTE MINOR INCIDENTS IS HUGE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S PART OF WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE, RIGHT?

SOMEBODY SAYS SOMETHING AND IT WOUNDS THEM IN A WAY THAT MIGHT SEEM OUTSIZED TO THE REACTION.

BUT I THINK THAT'S PART OF WHAT'S GOING ON IS THIS GENERATIONAL TRAUMA RIGHT?

IT'S BEING PASSED ON.

IT'S LIKE A SORE THAT NEVER HEALS, IT'S CONSTANTLY BEING PICKED AT.

IT IS PARTICULARLY CHALLENGING FOR YOUNG PEOPLE.

IF YOU SURVIVE PAST MIDDLE AGE YOU HAVE TO DEVELOP A MECHANISM FOR COPING WITH THIS, RIGHT?

FOR HANDLING IT.

SOME VERY HEALTHY MECHANISMS, SOME VERY UNHEALTHY IN OUR CULTURE.

BUT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SURVIVE IS PHENOMENAL, IS ASTONISHING.

BUT IT COSTS US IN COPING MECHANISMS AND MY OWN ONE USED TO BE ANGER,, YOU KNOW, BUT YES.

THIS IS A -- I'M ALMOST OVERWHELMED WITH THIS CONVERSATION BECAUSE IT'S SO DEEP SO I'LL STOP THERE.

>> Crossley: CHARLES, PART OF THE CULTURAL PIECE OF THIS AS I SEE IT IS SOMETHING THAT ALL OF US WERE RETRAUMATIZED BY THIS PAST SUMMER.

WE'RE LOOKING AT GEORGE FLOYD, ABOUT DYING, NEON THE NECK, WE KNOW INCIDENTS ARE GOING ON ALL THE TIME BUT INCIDENTS OF UNARMED BLACK MEN, BLACK WOMEN LIKE BRIONNA TAYLOR DYING AT THE HANDS OF POLICE, SHE'S JUST TRYING TO SLEEP IN HER HOUSE.

BUT YOUR PARTICULAR PROGRAM, FATHERS UPLIFT IS REALLY TRYING TO DEAL WITH MAKING THAT CONNECTION BETWEEN FATHERS AND THEIR SONS AND FATHERHOOD.

AND AS I'M HEARING EVERYBODY SPEAK, I CAN VEE NOW HOW THAT GENERATIONAL TRAUMA REALLY INTRUFTS, DISRUPTS THAT CONNECTIVITY.

-- INTERRUPTS, DISRUPTS THAT CONNECTIVITY.

CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AS ONE OF OF OUR CLIENTS CALLED IT, HE SAID CHARLES IT'S LIKE HAVING A BLACK REFLEX.

EVERY TIME YOU WALK DOWN THE STREET AND THINK ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN AT SCHOOL YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT ARE THEY GOING TO LOSE THEIR LIFE?

AS WE HAVE ALL EXPERIENCED TRAUMA BY WITNESSING THESE HORRIBLE EXPERIENCES THROUGH OUR TELEVISION SCREENS, AT THE END OF THE DAY IT REALLY KEEPS YOU ON EDGE AS A BLACK FATHER, AS A BLACK PARENT IN GENERAL.

I CAN SAY THAT OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF FATHERS CONSIDERING WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE CHILDREN DUE TO WHAT THEY'RE EXPERIENCING.

I MEAN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT YOUR KIDS, WHO ARE NOT EVEN HERE YET.

ESPECIALLY FOR MANY FATHERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY EXPECTING.

THE QUESTION IS HONEY ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS PREGNANCY?

ARE YOU SURE YOU CAN BRING A CHILD IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW AS A BLACK MAN AND WOMAN BECAUSE YOU ARE SO AFRAID OF THAT LIFE THAT THAT CHILD IS GOING TO HAVE ONCE THEY'RE BORN.

SO NOT ONLY ARE YOU EXPERIENCING A BLACK FLEX, SEE THE -- REFLEX, WORRIED ABOUT THE POLICE, WROIRD ABOUT YOUR CHILD IN SCHOOL, YOU'RE CONSIDERING WHETHER OR NOT YOU WANT TO BRING YOUR KIDS INTO THIS MESS THAT WE ARE CURRENTLY EXPERIENCING TODAY.

THESE ARE REAL LIFE SITUATIONS THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT, AS THEY'RE BRINGING CHILDREN INTO THE WORLD AND MANY PEOPLE WHO CURRENTLY HAVE KIDS, THAT IS A QUESTION WE HAVE TO ANSWER.

>> Crossley: LET'S LOOK AT THIS 2016 EPISODE FROM THE TELEVISION SERIES "BLACK-ISH," THE FAMILY DISCUSSES POLICE BRUTALITY AND THE PERCEPTIONS OF HOW PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE VIEWED, ALONG WITH THE FEAR AND THE REALITY BLACK AND BROWN PARENTS HAVE FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

>> LET'S SAY THEY LISTEN TO THE COPS AND GET IN THE CAR.

LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TOED FROMY GRANT.

>> WHAT IF THEY MAKE IT ALL THE WAY TO THE STATION.

DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING THE BLABD?

>> LET'S SEE IF THEY MAKE IT TO TRIAL?

DON'T YOU GET IT BO?

THE SYSTEM IS RILGD AGAINST US.

>> MAYBE IT IS TREY BUT I DON'T WANT TO FEEL LIKE MY KIDS ARE LIVING IN A WORLD THAT IS SO FLAWED THAT THEY CAN'T HAVE ANY HOPE.

>> SO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT HOPE, BO?

OBAMA RAN ON HOPE.

REMEMBER WHEN HE GOT ELECTED AND WE FELT LIKE MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, WE GOT OUT OF THAT BAD PLACE AND MAYBE TO A GOOD PLACE.

THAT THE WHOLE COUNTRY WAS REALLY READY TO TURN THE CORNER.

YOU REMEMBER THAT A AMAZING FEELING WE HAD DURING THE INAUGURATION?

I WAS SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO YOU.

WE WERE SO PROUD AND WE SAW HIM GET OUT OF THAT LIMO, AND WALK ALONGSIDE OF IT AND WAVE TO THAT CROWD.

TELL ME YOU WEREN'T TERRIFIED WHEN YOU SAW THAT.

TELL ME YOU WINTER WORRIED THAT SOMEONE WAS GOING TO SNATCH THAT HOPE AWAY FROM US LIKE THEY ALWAYS DO.

THAT IS THE REAL WORLD, BO.

AND OUR CHILDREN NEED TO KNOW THAT THAT'S THE WORLD THAT THEY LIVE IN.

>> Crossley: SO SHAWN, THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF GENERATIONAL TRAUMA.

LOOK AT ALL THOSE GENERATIONS IN THAT ROOM AS THEY WERE DISCUSSING IT.

PRETTY POWERFUL.

>> YES, AND THAT'S THAT MOMENT THAT -- THAT'S A SHOW CALLED BLACKISH BUT A LOT OF NONBLACK PEOPLE WATCH THAT SHOW ALSO.

AND I THINK IT GAVE AN INSIGHT ON WHAT A LOT OF BLACK PEOPLE FEEL ON A DAILY BASIS.

ESPECIALLY IN THE YOU KNOW, NOW IN THIS POST-TRUMP ERA, WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE OF HOW YOU NAVIGATE THIS WORLD AND HOW YOU'RE ALMOST AFRAID TO HAVE JOY BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THAT JOY IS GOING TO BE SNATCHED AWAY FROM YOU.

AND THAT'S REALLY POWERFUL.

AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE SOCIAL CONSEQUENCE THAT BEING AFRAID TO HAVE JOY, BECAUSE OF THE GENERATIONS OF RACIAL TRAUMA THAT YOU EXPERIENCED, CAN BE NO JOY IN THE SOCIAL SCIENCE DATA, JOY CAN HELP YOUR PHYSICAL HELP, CAN HELP YOUR MENTAL HEALTH, IT HELPS YOUR REACTION WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

WHEN YOU ARE AFRAID TO HAVE JOY WHAT DOES IT DO FOR YOUR INTERACTIONS?

ESPECIALLY WHEN WE TALK ABOUT INTERACTIONS WITH YOUR VERY CHILDREN, TRYING TO, I DON'T KNOW OTHER PEOPLE HERE, BUT I WAS RAISED WITH THIS LIKE YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANTS TO BE.

THIS IS WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING, I GREW UP, BLACK IS AROUND ME, YOU ARE A BLACK CHILD, WE HAVE ALL THIS [ DISTORT ODED ] BE CAREFUL ALL THESE LIMITATIONS THAT ARE PLACED UPON YOU.

I DON'T THINK THAT [ DISTORTED ] YOUR PARENTS SAY YOU CAN BE WHATEVER YOU WANT TO BE HOWEVER THERE IS AN ASTERISK THERE.

YOU HAVE TO WORK HARDER, YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL, WHEN YOU GO OFF TO THAT WHITE COLLEGE YOU CAN'T DO ALL THE THINGS THAT THOSE WHITE STUDENTS ARE DOING.

THEY'RE GOING TO IMPACT YOU DIFFERENTLY.

I THINK YOU HAVE A VERY IMPORTANT [ DISTORTED ] BLACK PEOPLE LEARN, HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE YOUR MENTAL HEALTH, HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE LEARNING TO LIVE THAT FULL LIFE?

HOW DO YOU SIMULTANEOUSLY EMBRACE BLACK JOY AND BLACK CONCERN?

AT THE SAME TIME?

WITH AND THE WAY I WAS RAISED YOU KIND OF HAVE TO DO THAT.

YOU HAVE TO JUGGLE THEM BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

>> Crossley: RIGHT.

I WANT TO COME BACK TO THAT BUT BEFORE I MOVE FORWARD GARY I WANT YOU TO MAKE SOMETHING CLEAR AND THAT IS THE SUSTAINED TRAUMA, THE EVERYDAY THE MULTIPLICITY OF INCIDENTS, THE DUALITY THAT SHAWN TALKED ABOUT OF TRYING TO BALANCE ALL THIS STUFF.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT IT'S NOW IN THE DNA.

BUT IT ALSO RESULTS IN TODAY'S SOCIAL DETERMINANT, HEALTH DETERMINANT RATHER, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, TRANSLATING IT INTO BAD HEALTH FOR FOLKS OF COLOR.

AND I WANT YOU TO MAKE THAT CASE.

PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT.

>> I MEAN, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE -- WHAT I REFER TO, AND I USE A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE AROUND THE SOCIAL DETERMINE NANTS, BECAUSEANTS.

I TALK ABOUT THE SOCIAL FACTORS OF HEALTH.

THOSE ARE CHANGEABLE.

THEY ARE NOT FIXED.

WE CREATED THEM.

WE CAN UNDUE THEM.

SO THE SOCIAL FACTORS ARE REALLY IMPORTANT, TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE LIKE FISSURES AND CRACKS.

AND IT IS NEVER SURPRISING IN TIMES OF CRISIS THAT VIRUSES AND, YOU KNOW, COVID IS ONE, POLICE, I THINK IS ANOTHER, POLICE BRUTALITY, EXTRA JUDICIAL KILLINGS IS ANOTHER KIND OF VIRUS THAT WE CAN -- AIDS WAS ANOTHER KIND OF VIRUS.

WE KEEP NAMING AIL OF THESE THINGS THAT DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACT BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, ASTHMA, HEART DISEASE, STROKE, AMPUTATIONS, DEPRESSION, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

THAT THOSE VIRUSES, THOSE CRACKS GET FILLED IN BY THE VIRUSES BECAUSE IT EXPOSES AND CREATES VULNERABILITIES.

AND VIRUSES ARE REALLY SMART.

THEY GO TO THE PATH OF LEAST REASONS.

RESISTANCE.

THEY ARE OPPORTUNISTIC.

THE WHOLE DEFINITION OF AN OPPORTUNISTIC NEFNTION IS THEY -- INFECTION IS THEY GO TO WHERE IF GUARD IS DOWN.

PART OF THE WAY IN WHICH YOU CONTROL IS BY CREATING FEAR AND THAT FEAR HAS TO BE PASSED DOWN.

FEAR BECOMES THE RULE AND YOU NIGHT TO TELL YOUR PEOPLE HOW THEY NEED TO BEHAVE AROUND ME.

SO THAT THEY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE RULES ARE.

AND IN A MACHIAVELLIAN WAY, I NEED TO MAKE EXAMPLES TO SOME OF YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE RULES ARE STILL FIXED AND CLEAR.

SO IT MAY NOT BE MY GRANDPA PA BUT WATCHING THOSE PEOPLE SCALE THE WALLS OF THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th WAS REESTABLISHING THE RULES.

THERE WILL BE NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

YOU WILL BE ABLE TO WALK AWAY AND YOU CAN'T DO IT.

YOU GOT IT IN YOUR GUT THAT SAID THE RULES ARE DIFFERENT FOR THEM.

>> Crossley: SO NOW I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT SHAWN BEGAN TO TALK ABOUT WHICH IS JOY AS A WAY OF INTERFERING, OF INTERRUPTING RATHER.

THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES, THE LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES, CERTAINLY THE GENERATIONAL CONSEQUENCES.

KIM YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT INSISTING DURING THIS REALLY TRAUMATIC TIME OF LAST YEAR AND CONTINUING, THAT YOU WERE GOING TO FOCUS ON JOY AS A MATTER OF SELF CARE.

AND YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE ALMOST A POLITICAL ACT.

>> IT ABSOLUTELY IS A POLITICAL ACT.

I MEAN THIS IS -- IT IS SO VITALLY IMPORTANT.

AND THIS IS WHERE I GET REALLY, REALLY CONCERNED.

I MEAN THERE IS SO MUCH CONCERN ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION.

BUT I MENTION TO SOMEONE THAT I HAVE HEARD THE WORD TRAUMA COME OUT OF THE MOUTHS OF BLACK STUDENTS MORE IN THE PAST FIVE YEARS THAN I HAVE PREVIOUSLY AND SOME OF THIS IS THE AWARENESS AND THE AWARENESS AND THE ACCEPTANCE AND THE ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF THE VERY REAL RACIAL TRAUMA WE LIVE WITH IS VITALLY IMPORTANT.

BUT I WORRY THAT FOR YOUNG PEOPLE THEY THEN BEGIN TO INTERNALIZE THAT SENSE OF CONSTANTLY BEING TRAUMATIZED AND ON THE RECEIVING END AND ON THE DEFENSIVE END AND THAT IN CIVILITY BEGINS TO KIND OF -- ITSELF BEGINS TO AS GARY WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FEAR, AND THE YOU KNOW AND AS SHAWN WAS TALKING ABOUT, KIND OF ALWAYS BEING IN A DEFENSIVE CROUCH, RIGHT?

I MEAN THAT JUST MAKES THINGS WORSE.

SO I'M NOT SAYING EITHER SLRN OR, IT'S LIKE -- EITHER/OR, IT'S LIKE BOTH.

SOME PEOPLE APPRECIATE IT, SOME PEOPLE DON'T.

A QUOTE FROM STOKELEY CARMICHAEL, IF A WHITE PLAN WANTS TO LYNCH ME, THAT IS HIS PROBLEM.

THERE ARE REAL WAY THAT THIS TRAUMA IMPACTS REPLY LIFE IF PEOPLE HAVE POWER.

BUT IF IT'S A QUESTION OF ATTITUDE, I CAN DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST ATTITUDINAL ASPECTS OF THIS TRAUMA.

AND I CAN DO THAT BY INCORPORATING JOY AND CELEBRATING OUR RESILIENCE AND OUR CREATIVITY.

I TEACH A CLASS IN BLACK REVOLUTIONARY THOUGHT, WE READ SLAVE NARRATIVES, IT'S ALL TRAUMATIC.

I START EACH CLASS WITH MAHALIA JACKSON SINGING.

THE JACKSON BROTHERS, SINGING STORMY WEATHER.

THERE IS BLACK JOY, BLACK CREATIVITY, IN THIS WORK, IT'S IMPORTANT TO EMPHASIZE WE ARE AMAZING.

AND WE -- THIS IS REAL.

BUT I HEAR WHAT EVERYBODY IS SAYING.

LAST THING, JUST WHAT CHARLES WAS SAYING ABOUT BLACK FATHERS.

THINK ABOUT A BLACK MOTHER WHO IS CARRYING A BABY AND THE TRAUMATIC IMPACT.

THIS IS REAL.

I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS WHEN I WAS PREGNANT.

YOU'RE LITERALLY TRANSMITTING THE TRAUMA INTO THE FETUS.

THIS IS REAL.

THAT'S WHEN I TOOK UP BLACK JOY.

I CAN'T BE PASSING THIS DIRECTLY FROM MY UTERUS TO MY CHILDREN.

>> Crossley: CHARLES WITH THAT, YOU ARE YOURSELF DEALING WITH A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE LITERALLY THE PHYSICAL EMBODIMENT OF THE DRAW MATSIC ATTACKS -- TRAUMATIC ATTACKS IF YOU WILL.

AND WHO ARE ALSO DEALING WITH THE CONSTANT MESSAGES THAT YOU ARE NOT WORTHY, SO HOW DO YOU INTERVENE AND INTERRUPT THAT?

AND BRING THE JOY WHICH AS ALL OF YOU HAVE SAID IS REALLY WHAT HAS TO BE, IN ORDER TO SORT OF STOP THE PASSING-ON OF THIS TRAUMA?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND YOU KNOW I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO TELL YOU THAT WE DO WHAT DR. BAILEY DID FOR ME WHEN I WAS ON THE VERGE OF GRADUATING OR DROPPING OUT OF SIMMONS UNIVERSITY BECAUSE I DID NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO NAVIGATE RACISM IN THE NORTHEAST AS OPPOSED TO RACISM IN THE SOUTH.

AND I'M GOING TO TELL YOU WHAT DR. BAILEY DID.

DR. BAILEY SAID YOU ARE GOING TO GRADUATE.

HE VALIDATED MY EXPERIENCES AND MORE IMPORTANTLY HE VALIDATED MY BLACKNESS.

AFTER THAT HE SURROUNDED ME INTO A COMMUNITY OF BLACK SCHOLARS WHO LOOKED LIKE ME WHO COULD POUR INTO ME.

IF HE HAD NOT DONE THAT I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DR. CHARLES DANIELS TODAY.

WHAT OUR BLACK MEN AND WOMEN NEED RIGHT NOW IS COMMUNITY.

THEY NEED TO KNOW THEY ARE IMPORTANT.

WHEN THEY'RE EXPERIENCING RACISM THEY NEED TO KNOW YES YOU ARE EXPERIENCING RACISM.

DR. BAILEY TOLD ME YES YOU ARE RIGHT CHARLES.

YOU CAN OVERCOME AND NOT BE A PRODUCT OF IT.

AS BLACK MEN AND WOMEN WE SORE PARALYZED BY RACISM THAT WE THINK WE DON'T NEED COMMUNITY.

TO EMBRACE THAT COMMUNITY AND AT THE SAME TIME KNOW THAT WE'RE IMPORTANT AND WE DESERVE TO BE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WHEREVER WE ARE, WHEREVER WE MAY BE EXPERIENCING RACISM.

SO THAT IS WHAT WE DO, BUT I WANT TO TELL YOU WE COULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT IF IT WERE NOT DONE FOR ME WHEN I CAME HERE IN THE CITY OF ABOUT BOSTON.

>> Crossley: THIS IS CONTRADICTORY WHAT YOU SAID SHAWN ORIGINALLY, THE VALIDATION OF WHAT IS HAPPENING, BECAUSE WHEN THESE VIDEOS STARTED POPPING UP AND PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS IN OFFICE, I REMEMBER, ONE OF THEM HAPPENED, HE SAID BLACK FOLKS AREN'T MAKING THIS UP.

THIS HAPPENS.

BUT YET DIDN'T HAVE THE VALIDATION FROM THE LARGER COMMUNITY, LARGER AMERICAN COMMUNITY AS WE KNOW I.T.

SO HOW IS IT IMPORTANT TO HAVE THAT VALIDATION BUT AT THE SAME TIME UNDERSTANDING THAT IF YOU HAVE THE VALIDATION, IT RETRAUMATIZES?

SHAWN.

>> VALIDATION IS SUCH A COMPLICATED THEORY AND IDEA, BUT NO MATTER LOOKING LIKE THE WITH POLITICAL SCIENCE AND RECOGNITION THEORY OR SOCIOLOGY, ASSOCIATION THEORY, IT'S IMPORTANT.

THE QUESTION THOUGH IS WHAT WE DO WITH ITS.

NO MATTER WHAT TRAUMA, WHETHER RACIAL TRAUMA, SEXUAL ASSAULT, DB, IF YOU DO NOT VALIDATE THE EXPERIENCE OF THE PERSON EXPERIENCED THE TRAUMA, IT RETRAUMATIZES THE PERSON.

AND SOMETIMES THAT RETRAIL TIESATION CAN HAVE A DEEMER IMPACT THAN THE ACTUAL TRAM.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE VICTIM, THAT THAT NOT BELIEVING AND NOT VALIDATING THE EXPERIENCE COULD HAVE REALLY DEEP SOCIAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPACTS.

SO IT MUST BE THERE, WE NEED TO CREATE THESE COMMUNITIES LIKE CHARLES WAS SAYING, WHAT CHARLES GOT FROM GARY CREATE THESE COMMUNITIES WHERE YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO THAT AND WHERE YOU CAN GET THIS VALIDATION FROM YOUR EXPERIENCES AND TO MOVE ON.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL, BECAUSE WE'RE OFTENTIMES NOT GOING TO GET THAT VALIDATION FROM THE WIDER COMMUNITY AND WE MUST PROTECT OURSELVES FROM THAT AS WELL.

JUST THE COMPLEXITY OF NAVIGATING RACISM AND GENERATIONAL RACIAL TRAUMA, WE KNOW THAT WORKS, WE KNOW VALIDATION WORKS BUT WE KNOW AS BLACK PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET A LOT OF THAT VALIDATION.

SO HOW DO WE PUT SYSTEMS IN PLACE TO GET THAT VALIDATION?

SO IT'S REALLY COMPLEX.

I WISH WE COULD JUST SAY YES, VALIDATE THE EXPERIENCES AND WE GO ON BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT SAYS WE SHOULD DO BUT WE KNOW THAT'S NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN ON A WIDER GRAND SCALE.

WE CAN'T EVEN GET AN APOLOGY FOR SLAVERY FROM THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, RIGHT?

SO LIKE WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ALLOW DO WE CULTIVATE -- HOW DO WE RECOGNIZE THAT VALIDATION IS IMPORTANT?

CULTIVATE SPACES WHERE WE CAN GET SOME VALIDATION BUT STILL HAVE A RESILIENCE.

THIS IS WHERE I BRING IN THIS BLACK JOY AGAIN, IF WE DON'T GET IT FROM THE WIDER COMMUNITY WE'RE STILL GOING TO BE OKAY.

WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT THE MACRO, THE MESO AND THE MICRO-LEVELS BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET IT ON ANY INDIVIDUAL LEVELS.

WE HAVE TO CONSTANTLY SURROUND OURSELVES, ONE OF THE THINGS I DO ALL OF THE CLASSES I TEACH ON VOYAGES, SEXUAL ASSAULT, POLICE VIOLENCE, GENOCIDE, I MAKE SURE THAT BLACK JOY IS A CENTRAL PART OF ALL OF MY CLASSES.

BECAUSE DESPITE MY RESEARCH TOPICS I'M A PRETTY HAPPY PERSON.

I THINK MOST PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU, SHAWN IS A PRETTY HAPPY GUY, EVEN STUDYING THE UNDERBELLY OF SOCIETY.

I CULTIVATE BLACK JOY IN MY DAILY LIFE.

WHAT I TRY TO DO WITH MY STUDENTS AS WELL AS MY RESEARCH ASSISTANT, YES, WE ARE STUDYING, WHAT DID YOU DO TO MAKE YOURSELF HAPPY, TO CULTS VAIT JOY AND PUT THE PROCESSES IN PLACE TO CULT VAI THE JOY BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET THE JOY.

>> Crossley: THAT IS A GREATLY PLACE FOR US TO END.

I WANT TO THANK YOU TODAY, THANKS TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS, AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER.

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