- [Deborah] Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, a mock slave auction at a Chatham County school prompts parents to demand action.

Ukraine's president appeals to Congress for more assistance and an opportunity for you to engage with us on Twitter about voter fraud suspicion surrounding former White House aide, Mark Meadows.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

This week, parents of students at JS Waters High School in Chatham County spoke out at a school board meeting after news of a mock slave auction at the school garnered national attention.

This was apparently not some isolated incident, as several parents addressed the school board about a culture of racism that's so commonplace, some of their children didn't even see the slave auction incident as a big deal.

But the Chatham County superintendent thought it was a big deal.

Dr. Anthony Jackson apologized for the behavior, said it did not reflect who they are as a school system and led the school board in updating school policies that deal with acts of racism.

We have with us today, Ashley Palmer, one of the parents of a student who was targeted in the racial incident and whose complaint on Facebook drew the needed attention.

And we also have Dr. Ronda Taylor Bullock, executive director of we are, which stands for Working to Extend Anti-Racist Education.

She is also a graduate of JS Waters High School.

So pleased to have both of you with us this morning.

Ashley, let me open up with you.

Can you please share a little bit of exactly what happened with this slave auction, how your son got involved?

- Thank you some much for having me.

So on February 28th, our biracial son came home complaining that he wasn't, he was told that he wasn't black enough to celebrate Black History Month.

So this prompted my husband and I to kind of inquire further.

And at that time, we were made aware of a video where two white students were harmonizing the N-word while two other white students looked on.

At one point, one of the students looked directly into the camera and knew he was being recorded and continued to sing.

The very next day, our son came home with an incident on the baseball field where a black student forgot to bring his hat and another white student said to him, "Aren't your people used to being out in the hot sun?"

So I guess this comment furthered the conversation where a student sold for 3.50 and then the same student from the video designated himself as a slave master because he, quote, "knew how to handle them."

We asked our son, you know, why didn't he respond?

And he said it was just easier to ignore him, otherwise he'd be fighting every day because this is something that's so common.

- Well, Ashley, I just wanna say, first of all, thank you so much for your bravery in taking the steps necessary to advocate for your son.

I am sorry that he went through that and that the other students have been enduring this kind of treatment.

We're gonna talk a little bit more, but first I wanna bring you in, Dr. Taylor Bullock.

You would not characterize this, someone would say, well, this was an isolated act, an isolated incident.

Why would you not characterize this as an isolated incident?

- Again, thank you for having me this morning as well.

I'm very happy to be here.

I would say that this isn't an isolated incident because these, this type of story has been happening historically at JS Waters.

My first experience with racism was at five in kindergarten when a white classmate told me I could not come to her birthday party because her father said that black people were not allowed in her home.

And so that was years ago, but my whole family has gone through JS Waters.

And at every generation, we are carrying stories of racialized harm.

Cousins, friends who've gone through the school have very similar experiences.

It does feel like it's gotten a lot worse and more overt now, but those stories are there.

- And Ashley, you can also attest to the fact because your daughter, you shared with me, also experienced some severe racism at the school.

- Yes, correct.

- Can you share a little bit about that?

- Our daughter was also an eighth grade student there and on a daily basis, she was coming home, there were comments like their parent, a white students would tell her their parents were in the KKK and would come to her house and kill her.

And it was just constant, ongoing racial trauma.

And when we addressed it with the principal and the superintendent, which, they're different than they were before, but it was met with a cultural acceptance bulletin board.

So it just was the norm.

It was acceptable.

- Not acceptable at all.

Can you share what the consequences for this most recent incident were before the media got involved and then how things switched?

- So when we first brought the mock slave auction in the video to the principal, the county got involved and the one student received a one day suspension for the slave auction.

The video, we were told, was, they were trying to determine the timeline of when it was recorded.

Action would be taken at that time.

After posting, that was on March the second.

After posting on Facebook and the media getting involved, we have now been made aware that multiple people have received up to 10 day suspensions, they've been kicked off of the baseball team, as well as, I think, a teacher is in current HR, having HR issues taken care of with him.

- Because this took place in the presence of adults at the school.

Dr. Taylor Bullock, you know, the superintendent, Dr. Anthony Jackson, to his credit, has taken action to change policies regarding punishment.

We invited him to be on the program today, haven't heard back from his office and that invitation remains open.

But let me ask you, do you think that what he has done so far is a step in the right direction and is it enough?

- What Dr. Jackson has done so far is a step in the right direction.

I wanna say he is new to the school district and we're not blaming him for these incidents happening because they were not within his control but how he responds is within his control.

And what he's demonstrated so far is that he's taken these allegations seriously.

He's taken the incidences seriously.

And policy change is a step in the right direction.

However, it's not enough.

One policy, two policies is not gonna be enough to eradicate the toxic culture that's existing among the students at the school.

And so we think that that has to be followed up with additional actions such as ongoing.

So this isn't a one-off kind of thing.

It has to be ongoing education, ongoing anti-racism training for the educators in the building and ongoing and starting plus ongoing anti-racism training for the children as well, because you can support them to have healthy racial identities with intentional efforts rooted in anti-racism.

- Well, you know those are fighting words.

The minute you say, anti-racism, there's going to be a fight at the schools by other parents who are gonna say you are trying to indoctrinate these children and you're trying to push a political agenda.

How do you intend to combat that?

- I would like to say, well, are you saying that we should be pro racism?

And I think that's something that we have to say, when did anti-racism become something negative?

I thought this was something that we would want and accept for those of us who believe in a libratory education, for those of us who believe in the equity and the humanity and dignity of every single person, we would want to move towards an anti-racism space.

And depending on which context you in, those are fighting words.

In other contexts people welcome that type of framework IN their educational system.

And they're seeing the benefits of helping children to better understand our current context, how we got here, and how we can move forward together as a community.

- Absolutely, and Ashley, I would say that what has happened in Chatham County with this particular incident is somewhat of a success story because there has been some progress made in terms of getting some remedy and some punishment out there that's appropriate to what happened.

What would you say are the elements that kind of came together to make this happen?

Because it wasn't just you, a parent posting something on Facebook and then walking away, more had to happen for this school board meeting to happen.

And for there to be additional repercussions.

What are those things, would you say?

- So I think the biggest difference was because of our experience with our daughter and not receiving action, my husband and I decided to be organized.

We decided to be a lot more calculated.

And we also reached out to organizations like Dr. Bullock's We Are, Chatham Organizing for Racial Equity, the NAACP, and because of CORE's help, they were able to pull together a coalition where we could be strategic and put a call to action and acknowledge that it is an election year.

There are three board members up for election.

The county commissioner's up for election.

The sheriff is up for election.

And so the social media present got the community support, CORE, and the organizations in our community got the community support as far as the organizations that could help.

And then also we were able to because parents stepped up and were inboxing me with multiple accounts of situations that they had had.

So we had a lot of data and information to be able to kind of affect change.

I also wanna do note that one of the major things that I think was different is we have in our community, we have black mamas that have come out and said things and have posted on Facebook and tried to get support as well.

And I think it speaks volumes as to what the media took and ran with with me being a white woman in the conversation.

- Absolutely, and Dr. Taylor Bullock, I know that even as we're speaking, you are preparing for your organization's Let's Talk Racism Conference this weekend, wish we had a little bit more time to talk about it.

But if you can take a moment to let folks know how they can get more information about the conference and about your group.

- Yes, you can visit our website, Weare-nc.org to get straight to the page that's related to the conference.

You can go to Letstalkracism.com.

And we co-host this event with a education collaborative with North Carolina Central University School of Education.

We've been working with them now for the past six years, Ben and Jerry's ice cream and with the Deadly Flood Center.

So together we we've come together to create this annual space where we talk about racism and recognizing that racism is structural and it intersects with the educational system.

And so this year, our theme is seeing critical race theory in our schools from theory to practice.

- And Dr. Rhonda Taylor Bullock, wish we had a little bit more time, but thank you for being with us.

And Ashley Palmer, thank you also for making the time and sharing your story and for your bravery once again, both of you.

- Thank you.

- On the national and world front, continued focus on Ukraine and this week, Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy appealed to Congress in the United States directly using an emotional device.

He infused references to great tests of freedom and democracy in US history, asking that we remember Mount Rushmore, Pearl Harbor, 9/11, and the war on terror.

And he even invoked the memory of Dr. Martin Luther King.

I have a dream.

These words are known to each of you.

Today, I can say, I have a need.

I need to protect our sky.

I need your decision, your help which means exactly the same, the same you feel when you hear the words "I have a dream" The US is helping.

Last week, Congress passed a 13.6 billion dollar emergency aid package.

Over the weekend, the Biden administration announced another 200 million for humanitarian assistance and following Zelenskyy's speech, another 800 million dollars in security assistance.

How far is America willing to go?

I wanna welcome this week's panel.

Senator Natalie Murdock of Durham, Attorney Harold Eustache of the Forsyth County GOP, and councilman Leonardo Williams of Durham.

The speech was moving.

Leonardo, let me get your reactions simply on the speech, which prompted a standing ovation.

- Yeah, thank you so much, Deborah, for having me this morning.

Some folks watch history and others make it.

And what we witnessed was history in the making.

This is a speech that would go down as one of the moving mixture of words that got our nation awareness back to focus on something unique happening just yesterday.

While President Zelenskyy was giving his speech to Congress, I was standing in the halls of the Capitol waiting to meet with my senators and Congress members, but I had to wait until he finished addressing Congress, and I was watching the speech on my phone and it was almost spiritual to just feel the Capitol come to life, you know?

Listening to those words, calling on our entire nation, and having us to refocus on the purposes of fighting for democracy.

- Yeah, yeah, I can only imagine what it must have felt like.

Harold, what were your thoughts on the speech and how far you believe this impressed the Biden administration to make additional aid available, and where they are are right now?

- I also thought the speech was extremely moving, it was a great speech.

I think it rallied our country, who's already behind Ukraine, I think, and so it moved us, it moved Congress, looks like they acted.

We're spending a lot of money and sending a lot of money to Ukraine.

I do think that the duty and responsibility of our Congress members is to the American people, and as long as it's in our interest to do that, I think it's okay to do that and support Ukraine.

Of course we do, but it seems like we're getting closer to this line of potentially pushing for direct conflict, and I think the Biden administration's in a tough spot because people keep saying you gotta do more, you gotta do more.

Well, what more can you do than have a no-fly zone which pushes us to a direct conflict?

And I think it's unfortunate because all these people pushing for a direct conflict, if you're not willing to go yourself or you're not willing to institute a draft, because that's what it's gonna take to beat Russia, then we shouldn't be pushing for a direct conflict in my opinion.

That said, we have to have tough sanctions on Russia, which we do, and we have to do everything we can to support Ukraine in their fight against Vladimir Putin.

- Thanks, Harold.

Senator Murdock, your reactions to the speech and the request for a motion on a no-fly zone?

- Absolutely, just very moved first and foremost.

President Zelenskyy is just the pure, most physical example of leadership that we have ever seen as elected officials.

It is an amazing example of how you should lead, and for him to lead when his country is under attack every single day we have seen, I wanna ground us just in the humanity of women that are trying to give birth that are in bunkers while they're dealing with gunfire and attacks, children, elderly, we've seen the photos of seniors wrapped up in blankets in the snow as they're trying to have some safety and refuge.

President Zelenskyy, there's a hit on him, Putin wants him dead, and he continues to lead knowing this.

He has physically put himself in the front lines and so I'm glad that Speaker Pelosi provided him with the opportunity to address Congress, and we needed to hear that.

We heard his passion, him evoking those American attacks that we had to withstand and we had to band together and fight back, and his country is doing just that, and the aid that we are providing is so that they can defend themselves.

Unfortunately, they are not a NATO ally, so we do have to be very careful, it is a very delicate dance, but the world is watching.

We all know Russia does have nuclear weapons, Ukraine does not, so we do not want to trigger a nuclear war, a third world war, so we do not have the luxury of being isolationist, we do have to be a global leader.

And even before this administration, even though, unfortunately, Trump tried to stall that assistance, even 400 million was awarded in previous administrations, and so we do have to continue to support Ukraine in the best way that we can.

- Certainly, and with that, all of the financial assistance that's come, and they're asking for more, we have about a minute, I'm gonna give 30 seconds to each of you, how about this conversation that's in the air about the fact that we are giving all of this financial support to Ukraine, but there are needs here at home, and our Congress couldn't seem to act quickly enough to even make a decision to release funds to help improve American communities?

Senator Murdock.

- Yeah, I think we could have come up with a way.

I am concerned about that slash in COVID aid.

I will lead with that, that is very concerning states including North Carolina.

We are not out of this pandemic.

Even though we are technically in an endemic, we know that things could change at any time.

I think we could have figured out a way to assist Ukraine and continue to provide the states with the local funding that they will need as we continue to work our way through this pandemic.

- Harold, let me get your thoughts.

- Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that our prior administration did was put America first, right, and I think it's always our responsibility to put our people first, and spending our taxpayer dollars, 13 and a half billion to send to Ukraine, I think it's frankly too much.

And we have a million problems right here in the United States that need fixing, and so we've gotta look at what we can do here and I think there's a responsibility here too.

- I quickly wanna add that package was bipartisan, so Mitch McConnell actually praised the bipartisanship of that legislation, so I do wanna add, it did have Republican support as well.

- Thank you for that addition.

Councilman Williams, what are your thoughts?

- Yeah, we have to walk and chew gum at the same time here.

In order to maintain our space a global leader, we have to have that presence, but I want us to keep that same energy here locally.

We also have folks dying in the streets, we also have a housing crisis, we have an economy that is strong for some and unknown for others, so we have to make sure that our budget is stating where our priorities are.

- Absolutely.

And an interesting story on voter fraud bubbled up in news earlier this month.

According to a report in the Washington Post, this 900 square foot trailer home is where former White House Chief of Staff for Donald Trump, Mark Meadows, listed as his residence when he voted in the 2020 election.

The article details a maze of home rental addresses by Meadows and his wife over the course of about 12 years.

In and around Georgia and Western North Carolina towns, that begged the question did this former North Carolina representative, who was extremely vocal and active on efforts to call out and prevent voter fraud, and is also in contempt of court right now for refusing to cooperate with the January 6th select committee, did he and his wife, themselves, commit voter fraud, yes or no?

We're gonna take the conversation to Twitter with our panel and we also wanna know what you think.

So find us using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum on Twitter and tell us what you think.

So, we look forward to hearing from you on that.

Natalie, [Natalie laughing] yes or no?

- This is the height of hypocrisy.

I mean, for you to, first of all, the fallacy of voter fraud that Mark Meadows is pushing, as much as wanting to overturn the election, we know that he was advising Donald Trump until the very end even on January 6th, the day of the insurrection.

So for you to make false allegations of voter fraud, quite frankly, and for you to engage in it, I'm going glad, honestly, that the local district attorney has recused herself.

She admitted that there is a conflict there.

So I'm glad that the state will be investigating this and we'll see what the results are, but it does not appear that he lived in that home.

And you shouldn't be voting from an address that you don't live in.

I mean, we know congressional members, they have multiple residences because they're in DC, they're also in their district.

But for you, we to know that you are a full-time staffer in the White House, advising the president, it makes it very difficult for you to maintain a home in North Carolina and multiple addresses even as far as Georgia, very, very concerning.

And it's the height of hypocrisy.

- Harold, what are your thoughts about that?

- Well, I, frankly, it makes me upset.

- [Deborah] Is he committing fraud or not, based on what you've read and the information that's out there, you think?

- Right, I think, here's the problem, that the standard for what is a resident has been pushed, to me, by a, you know, the Democrats in the, with, [sighs] how do I say this?

With regard to what makes somebody a resident.

- I'm sorry, go ahead.

- It's about, it's about intent.

And ultimately, because that standard is not, is so nebulous, about where somebody lives and because of these implications about college students and other people, you know, do they have to physically be there all the time to be a resident?

You know, I, but I do agree that I think it's hypocritical, flat out, because, you know, as a part, you know, member of the NCGOP that works on election integrity specifically, I'm part of that task force and I've worked really hard and it just, it infuriates me to see, you know, somebody like this do something like this because it gives the other side fodder to say hey, look, they're being hypocritical.

And I think he should be investigated.

I think it's good that the state is investigating this and see what comes, what comes of this.

I, frankly, don't think the law is, I think the law, excuse me, I think the law is on Mark Meadow's side.

I think it's gonna be tough to prove that he didn't have the intent to live there.

- Well, there's something to be said about the law, but then there's just right now and what we're dealing with.

And a lot of people will remember the story of the Hope County woman, Lanisha Jones, who was prosecuted for voter fraud when she accidentally registered to vote while out on probation.

So there seems to be this allowance for understanding that perhaps Meadows got confused or that the law needs to be changed, but where was that sympathy and where is that sympathy and understanding when the person who is supposedly committing fraud is not a public official, but just a regular person out there, an African American female.

Let me get your thoughts on that, Leonardo.

- Yeah, you know, sometimes laws are written to keep us safe and sometimes laws are written to be convenient for others.

And it does bother me when it becomes complicated to address this situation when it, for Mark Meadows, but for Lanisha, it was very cut and dry.

And that was clearly a mistake.

Also, Kelley Williams-Bolar, a black woman who decided to, she wanted her child to get a better education.

The schools were not working where she was.

She was sentenced to prison and it was so easy.

It was so cut and dry.

Oh, this was wrong, go to jail.

Lanisha, this was a mistake, wrong, go to jail.

But Mark Meadows, here we are trying to determine, well, is it right, is it wrong?

You know, this and that.

And I, and there's so many that are trying to figure out whether he, whether this was fraud or not.

It's fraud.

It's fraud, it was wrong, and he needs to go to jail.

- And consequences.

It's time for those consequences.

You know, no more allowance.

Councilman Leonardo Williams, Attorney Harold Eustache, and Senator Nat, Senator Natalie Murdock, thank you so much for your thoughts and for spending time with us today.

- Thank you, Deborah.

- [Harold And Leonardo] Thank you.

- I wanna thank all of today's guest for joining us today.

We invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify or Google Podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching.

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