[upbeat music] [upbeat music continues] [upbeat music continues] [upbeat music continues] - Hello, and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is writer-editor Ralph Macchio.

Ralph, welcome to "Comic Culture."

- Good to be here.

Pleasure.

- Now, Ralph, you are, I guess, best known for your work at Marvel Comics in the 1970s and 1980s as one of the editors of some of their, well, I guess, most laudable titles.

You worked on "Daredevil" with Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli on the "Born Again" storyline, which I think is being adapted as we speak by Marvel into a TV series.

So as an editor working with talent of that caliber, how do you make sure that, you know, you're able to have the authority to reign in somebody like a Frank Miller, and make sure that you're getting the best story on time, and, at the same time, tapping into everything that they can bring you?

- Well, you know, when Frank first started, he was certainly not a superstar.

And I worked with him on "Daredevil" prior to that.

So really, you know, at that point, he was not the gigantic figure that, you know, he became later.

And I found even working with people such as Frank and Walt Simonson, you know, another gigantic figure in the business, that they were very committed to what they were doing.

And they were very easy to work with.

They wanted to bring out the best in the character, and they wanted their best work to be there on the page.

So there was none of the haughtiness that you might associate with a superstar, that you can't tell me what to do, or whatever.

Whenever Frank turned anything in, he always said, "What did you think of this?"

He was always questioning.

How do you think this was work?

Do you think that sequence worked fine and all?

And I felt my job as editor was to encourage people, to encourage every creator that I worked with, to bring out the best in them.

I think that's an editor's prime job.

And when you have people of that caliber as a Frank Miller, it's really pretty easy.

You know, when I called Frank up, after Denny O'Neil had left "Daredevil," I said, "Frank, I know you've got more stories to tell."

"Daredevil" stories.

And he said, "You know, just give me a little while to think about this, Ralph."

And he called me back, and he had the "Born Again" idea.

And he was wondering whether David Mazzucchelli would work the way he wanted to work on the book.

The way he was gonna turn in pages, et cetera.

And I said, "No problem."

I said, "David would be thrilled to work with you."

He was a fast-developing talent anyway.

And it was just a pleasure to sit back and watch the two of them, you know, just create a masterpiece.

- It's gotta be rewarding as that editor who can take someone like David Mazzucchelli who is, I mean, essentially, he's getting his first real steps into the world of comics.

And you're sort of shepherding him along as he's developing as an artist, a storyteller, and a professional.

So as an editor working with that new talent, instead of the established stars like a Walt Simonson, how do you sort of find the way to encourage them, but also point them in the right direction when they are maybe lacking?

- Well, that's where your editorial judgment comes in.

I always said that the best thing to do as an editor is to find a way to encourage the person and never to bring them down.

Never to go after them in such a critical way that you diminish them.

And that's the worst thing.

George Roussos, who was a man who was in comics from the very beginning, one time told me, "If you make a creator feel like he's 10 feet tall, he's gonna perform for you as if he's 10 feet tall.

But if you criticize him and you're merciless on him and you bring him down, he's gonna perform like a midget, and you're not gonna get any work that you want."

When you talk about bringing people along, another person that I was fortunate enough to have shepherded was Bill Sienkiewicz.

Bill came up to Marvel.

I believe he had gone up to DC at first.

And he had his portfolio.

And at that time I was working on a backup series in the "Rampaging Hulk" magazine.

And Gene Colan was doing "Moon Knight."

And I really wanted to get a kind of Neal Adams Batman feel.

And Gene had his own thing going.

And he could do moody stuff, and I loved it, but I just saw "Moon Knight" more in that Neil Adams look, with the long cape, you know, extending behind him, et cetera.

Bill came in and he had the kind of Neil Adams look.

What was fascinating about it is that within a short period of time, after getting him on "Moon Knight" and working with Doug Moench, another highly talented guy, he was able to move beyond being kind of a Neil Adams clone.

On "Moon Knight," he became the Bilson Sienkiewicz that we know today.

And it was wonderful to watch him just develop and to work with him.

At one point, one thing that I did do to kind of really bring his work forth was he was working with an anchor at the time.

I really didn't think that the anchor was bringing out, 'cause I saw his pencils.

And I said, "You know, there's just so much more here."

The anchor was a fine anchor, but he just wasn't bringing out what was in Bill's work.

And I said, "Bill, you're just gonna have to ink yourself."

I said, "Even if it's not something you've really done," I said, "I think you're the only person who can bring out the personality in your work."

And so Bill began to ink his own work.

That also elevated him to another level.

I was able to do similarly with John Romita Jr. on "Daredevil."

Many people believe that "Daredevil" is the book where John Jr. became the artist that came out of his father's shadow.

On that book.

So I was very proud to have worked with John there and to, you know, shepherd him.

Again, these guys have all the talent, it's just a matter of kind of coaxing them one way or the other.

And the same thing with the writers.

It's your job to find a way to bring out the best in them, and to make them see that they can be much greater than they are.

And they believe in themselves, and you take it from there and work with them.

So I've been very fortunate to work with people of that caliber and just to watch them grow.

It's been more rewarding than anything else I've ever done.

- Comics are a collaborative industry.

I mean, you generally have a writer who is coming up with something that someone else is going to interpret as the story to present to the audience.

And you, I guess, as an editor, are that intermediary.

So if you have a situation where a writer is maybe not leaning into the strength of the artist, or the artist just simply isn't getting that right vibe that you feel the writer has for this particular story, how do you kind of, you know, again, you talked about making someone feel like they're 10 feet tall.

How do you get that honest feedback and also have it be encouraging?

- Well, there are ways to do that.

You don't, again, go directly at someone with a terrible criticism like, "You're not delivering what the writer wants."

Because that could start an argument, that could make the artist defensive.

You don't do that.

You say, "You know, there are certain things that I see here that you're just not bringing out the way I think it would work."

And you sit down with the artist and you talk to him.

And another thing that is very important is the way in which a script is done.

You've probably heard of the Marvel method, which was what Stan Lee pioneered, which was really out of necessity.

Because he was writing so much that as time went by, Stan couldn't sit there and write a full script, which was a panel-by-panel breakdown where you wrote the scene description, as well as the dialogue in every single panel.

It became more like writing several paragraphs.

And you would give it to great storytellers like Kirby or Colin or Ditko, and they would take it from there and make a whole story out of it.

I found that when I was working with an artist, if he was working Marvel style, it tended to give him more latitude.

And it was an opportunity there for him to kind of expand in ways that if you did a full script, he might not be able to because he was strictly limited by what the writer wanted in that one panel.

And I found working Marvel style, both as a writer and as an editor, it just seemed to bring out more in the artist.

Although, it's not really done that way today.

The Marvel method has kind of gone by the wayside now, and almost every book is done full script.

- I've spoken to writers who do talk about, you know, how comics have become this writer's medium now, where if you go to a bookstore and you see a collection of issues of comics, it might have the name of the writer on it and then in smaller print, the name of the artist, where it's that collaborative nature.

And it's interesting because, you know, you as an editor made that move to you as the writer working on comics like "The Avengers" and, of course, the seminal classic, "House II: The Second Story."

- [Ralph] One of my favorites.

[laughs] - So when you're making that move from an editor to somebody who is now putting themselves in that position to be maybe mentored or criticized, how do you take what you know as an editor and turn it into you as a writer, but yet also feel free to experiment?

- Writing is, of course, a totally different discipline than editing.

And I found that I much preferred editing to writing myself, which was the reason that I stayed on staff at Marvel.

Because most people, back when we all were on staff in the '70s, you went on staff not to make a career out of editing, but to wait until a number of books opened, and then you could take them and go off and become the writer.

I never saw it that way.

I wanted to write on the side.

I think it's a great discipline, and I love writing comics, but I much preferred working as sort of the director, as the editor.

And when I became a writer, when I was writing "Marvel Two-in-One" or "Thor" or "Avengers," it was interesting, because I felt more in control in some ways, but less in control.

Because I was more in control of the story, but I was less in control of the entire product.

So it's interesting.

Kind of push and pull that way.

I also was very fortunate throughout my career to have worked with really top people: John Byrne, George Perez, John Buscema.

I mean, it was just fantastic throughout my career to have worked with people at that level.

And I tried to infuse the enthusiasm that I had for the story to them.

I always tried to do that, to say, "You know, this is the most exciting thing in the world.

Let's have fun."

Because over time, it becomes, even in the Marvel Universe, it almost becomes pedestrian to bring in Galactus because, well, we've seen Galactus a million times.

You know, he comes back to earth now and ho-hum.

You have to make it as if it's the first time that anyone has ever seen Galactus or Doom or Thanos.

You can't do it as if this is just, well, it's the 15th time, and we're just gonna sort of bring him on stage.

You have to make it, for the reader, as if it's the first time we've ever seen these characters.

And I tried to do that in every story.

Tried to be as excited about it as I could and infused that enthusiasm to the artist.

- We talked a little bit before we started recording about, you know, there's always that one comic that makes a comic creator's eyes light up because that was a comic that they read growing up.

So it's really interesting to hear you put that into a storyteller's point of view, which is this is going to be somebody's first experience seeing Galactus or Dr. Doom or one of these great villains.

So let's make it as if it is as earth shattering as the first time you read it.

So, you know, as somebody who is a comics reader, how do you sort of become the comics pro?

- Obviously, you have to learn the discipline of editing and writing, but you must make sure that it doesn't destroy your love of the characters and the books.

Because I remember when I first started at Marvel, somebody up on staff said, "You know, within a year, you're gonna lose your fanish love of the books and the characters, because you're gonna see it so much as a job that you're just gonna lose your love of it."

That didn't happen with me.

If anything, my love of the Marvel characters and the Marvel Universe only grew, because now I was in it, and I could direct certain portions of it, and I could do things with it that I couldn't do as a writer.

I was a major letterhack.

I was not into traditional fandom as a comic book reader, but I did write, prolifically, letters to all of the Marvel books.

And I used to think, "Boy, if only I could get some of these ideas and some of these things I'm passing along turned into stories."

And I had the opportunity to do that later.

So I never lost my love of the books.

As with any other discipline, it's over time that you really become proficient in what you're doing.

When I started out as an assistant, I watched the editor.

I said, "What are you doing?"

You know, I just had to follow his lead at that point.

- You're talking about making that transition from the guy who's writing the letters, saying, "I wish someday I could get my ideas up on that page," but you're also the guy as the editor who's bringing that dream along for somebody like a David Mazzucchelli or a Bill Sienkiewicz, who was probably looking at comics and thinking, "Gosh, I want to work with guys like John Buscema or George Perez or John Byrne."

So, you know, how do you keep them from burning out?

And, you know, that love that you have for these characters as a professional, how do you kind of keep them imbued with that and that notion that there's that joy of creation?

- Well, I think with any of the people that you've mentioned and most of the people I've worked with, they had that.

They never lost that, and if anything, they love of it grew as they became more proficient in their art.

They would see avenues for experimentation.

Just taking Bill Sienkiewicz, for example, the way he began to tell a story, the more he moved from being kind of a Neil Adams clone, he began to pick up things from other artists.

Ralph Steadman, I believe.

Other guys that he looked at.

Began to incorporate all of these different influences into making a Bill Sienkiewicz style, a singular style.

When Frank started as an artist, before he became a writer-artist, he was very impressed with Gil Kane.

And you could see that in his early work on "Daredevil."

There's a lot of Gil Kane influence in there.

But as time went by, he began to find himself as an artist.

You go with them on this journey.

You never push them one way or the other.

As I said, you kind of coax them.

You kind of try to bring them along.

But they have it inside them.

And as I said, my main job as an editor is just to try to, you know, if they're having problems with a deadline, or they're not particularly wild about this story, try to find something in there to help them along.

If it's a deadline problem, find out why they're slowing up, what you can do to help them, if you need another artist to be brought in to help with a couple of pages, whatever.

But always be on their side.

Don't ever look at it as an adversarial position.

That I'm the editor.

I'm the boss.

I'm telling you what to do.

You don't perform, you're gone.

You never do that.

Not with creative people.

You always say, "Is there something that's a problem?

Are you not happy with the way the writer is telling the story?

Or are you not happy with the way the artist is?

We can get together on this.

We can work this out, and we can just make it better."

And I've always found that if you sit down with people and you just try to bring it out of them, make them feel that you're on their side, eventually, they're going to come out of whatever funk they're in or whatever, and they're gonna do it.

And they're not gonna burn themselves out.

I think people know when they're doing too much.

Or if they may burn out on a particular character, they know to leave.

If they've done too much of "Daredevil" or too much of "Moon Knight," or whatever, they know it's time to go to something else.

You don't have to tell them that.

They know.

- I think of comics from the 1980s as being, especially Marvel comics, is they sort of take on a little bit more of a mature tone.

And I don't mean in the sense of, like, you know, rated R, but in the sense that the stories are reflecting what somebody might watch on television at that time, whether it's, you know, a "Hill Street Blues" or even a soap opera, as opposed to comics that are necessarily geared towards, you know, those younger readers.

And I think when we look at something like, you know, Frank Miller's "Daredevil Run," where he's building up these long arcs and these big stories that have these big impacts, and maybe tapping into film noir, you know, that's a real different approach.

And I'm wondering, you know, as somebody who is part of this revolution of comics being more for the older reader, where it's respecting perhaps the fact that they have a little bit more worldview, how do you sort of balance that with the idea that, you know, hey, kids, it's comics?

- I think I would use, and always have used, Stan Lee as a model.

Because when Stan was doing the Marvel comics, I've read and heard from Stan that his publisher, Martin Goodman, when he came with Spider-Man, that people wouldn't be interested in Spider-Man.

Kids wouldn't identify with a character that's kind of a loser.

Or a teenager could only be a sidekick.

And when Stan was writing "Thor," it took a great leap of faith in the readership that they would follow along when he did pseudo-Shakespearean dialogue.

When you think about it, no one had done anything like that before.

He had Thor and all his guardians speaking pseudo-Shakespearean, with the thees and thous and those.

And I'm sure there were people at that time going, "You're gonna lose your whole readership here.

What kid is gonna pick up on this?"

And when you use those 10 buck words that Stan did.

But he didn't.

And I felt the same way.

I felt that the readership, whatever age, was not gonna go, "You know what, I can't follow this Daredevil anymore.

I don't know what's going on with these ninjas and Elektra and all this.

I'm gone."

I think they come along with it.

Even if you look at rock music, for example.

If you look at work by the Beatles and Stones, what they were doing in '64 as opposed to what they were doing in '67, they didn't lose their fan base.

If anything, it grew.

As they became more sophisticated in the music that they were producing, people picked up on that and followed them.

And the same thing with Marvel comics.

As Marvel comics got more sophisticated, as the '60s went on, moving into the '70s and '80s, the readership was there.

They didn't drop off, they grew with us.

And if you wanna make sure that you keep younger readers involved, you keep telling good stories.

Good stories are gonna appeal to everybody, from 10 years old to 90 years old.

And you make sure that it's clear who the character is.

You know, you set the situation up.

You don't go off on a tangent so that a reader picking it up goes, "Ah, I'm lost."

That's something you do have to be cautious about.

And sometimes a writer may go off and think, "Well, you know, I don't have to explain anything about Daredevil's powers because everybody knows it."

No, you try to incorporate that in the story.

Because every issue, as someone said, is somebody's first issue of that comic.

And you wanna get them, you wanna hook them, you wanna keep them there with you.

So I always used Stan as the model.

He wasn't afraid to make the Marvel Universe ever more sophisticated as the years went by, and we needed to do the same.

- I think that's a great way to look at it, I mean, is that sort of natural evolution of writers sort of reading the comics and then making the comics and kind of growing that mindset.

And, you know, one of the things that I've noticed in modern comics is we have a lot of events.

And I know you were part of the Marvel Bullpen back when the event comics first sort of got their start.

I mean, I'm thinking of "Secret Wars" or "Secret Wars II," or any of those other big ones.

So as an editor who might be planning out a story arc with a creator, how do you sort of shift gears because now there's a new mandate from the editor-in-chief that everyone's going to be involved in this big company-wide crossover?

- That sometimes was difficult, because there were writers who were very, very set in what it was they were going to do over the next six months.

And having them to be involved in a big event, sometimes that's where you really had to bring your editorial skills to bear, to find ways to discuss it with them, and to say, "Look, we can incorporate the big event in our story without ruining the story."

It wasn't easy, but as the events always seemed to boost the sales of associated books, it was important just from a sales point of view.

But you really did have to work as an editor and discuss it with the writer.

We always had large editorial meetings where we would say, "Okay, we're gonna do the Subterranean War or the Atlantian War, or something, and it's going to stretch across the Marvel Universe."

And you'd have to make sure that your writers would understand why it was being done and how they could incorporate that into their particular stories.

And sometimes it was difficult.

Sometimes a writer would be resistant and would say, "You know, I really can't fit this whole thing that you guys wanna do in here in my story."

But you'd have to find a way to do it.

Again, that was kind of difficult.

And there were times that it involved all your editorial skill to get them to kind of come along with it and do it.

But say, "Look, this is going to help the sales.

A rising tide lifts all boats."

- I'm thinking about artists who may or may not have a certain skill set.

And I believe Paul Kupperberg once said about Curt Swan, "He could draw the greatest conversation, he could draw the best looking people, but don't ask him to draw an alien."

It just wasn't in his wheelhouse.

So, you know, we're talking about writers having to adapt to these big events.

If you've got an artist who is really good at superheroics, it might not be a stretch for them to, you know, draw somebody from Atlantis as they're about to take over New York City.

But if you've got someone who's maybe more of a street-level, you know, "Daredevil-style" artist, you may have to work a little bit differently to get that crossover in.

So how do you work with an artist who might not have that grandiose world- - Style.

Yeah.

Again, that was something that you would have to sit down with the artist, and you would have to discuss it with them and say, "Look, you're gonna have to find a little bit more in yourself.

We're not doing something street level here.

We're doing something cosmic.

And let's see what you can do."

A lot of the artists would find that experimentation interesting.

That they in fact could grow as artists by saying, "Okay, you know, I'm used to doing street-level characters.

Just Spider-Man, Daredevil, Captain America.

Those are my things."

But to move to another level and do something a bit more cosmic or maybe even magical, if it was something that dealt with "Doctor Strange," they would have to find that in themselves.

And you could discuss it with them and say, "Okay, we're moving beyond the street-level stuff now.

We're doing something at a different level.

But come on, you know, look at the..." Sometimes I would send, if an artist was doing something and wasn't really in that vein, I would make copies of the work that Kirby had done, if it was a cosmic thing, and I would send it to them and say, "Look at how he handled this.

Don't imitate it, but find that part of yourself that can be grandiose, that can go a little bit beyond the street level."

And I would talk to them about it, and I would say, "See the stuff that I sent you?

This is what you can do too.

You know, we wanna get out into space.

You can handle it."

But you're right, there were times that it was difficult.

It was also difficult if, for example, an artist was used to doing cosmic stuff, much preferred doing Thor or something of that level, and then had to come down to something that was more street level.

So that was also a challenge, in both directions.

- You and I met at HeroesCon this past year, and I think you were saying it was your first time at that convention.

So as somebody who may not have been a big attendee of conventions, what's it like now as sort of the emeritus creator going to a convention and connecting with fans?

- It's very gratifying.

I had not really thought about going to conventions much.

But in the last year, I spoke to Tom DeFalco, who was former editor-in-chief at Marvel and a very good friend.

I worked with him both as a writer and editor.

And Tom said, "You know, Ralph, it'd be a good idea if you went to some of these conventions."

He goes, "People would like to see you."

He goes, "You have a long history on a lot of books.

You're coming up to anniversaries on things that you wrote."

Transformers, 40th anniversary next year, "Born Again" will have been around for 40 years, and other things.

He goes, "You'd be surprised how many people will come up to you and want you to sign their books, take photos with you, et cetera."

And I was kind of surprised I didn't think that would be the case, but it turned out to be just the opposite.

People were wonderful at these conventions.

They really were happy to discuss the books with me.

I could give them a little background on how a story came about, if it was something that they had really loved when they first read it.

And it is a very interesting thing, that, as you said, to be kind of an emeritus guy now, even though I'm still working for Marvel.

Still doing, you know, writing introductions, the occasional comic, et cetera.

To be on that side of the table and to say, "Okay, you know, you want me to sign the book and you wanna discuss what it was that gave me my inspiration for doing that?

I was happy to do it, and continue to be happy to do it.

- Well, Ralph, they are telling me that we are out of time.

I wanna thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

It's been a fantastic conversation.

- Absolute pleasure.

I'll come back anytime you want me to.

- I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

[upbeat music] [upbeat music continues] [upbeat music continues] [upbeat music] "Comic Culture" is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, giving broadcasting majors professional experience and onscreen credit before they graduate.

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