>> CROSSLEY: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST, AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR," 89.7.

TONIGHT: "RAP LYRICS, FREE SPEECH, AND CRIMINALIZATION."

RAP BURST ONTO THE AMERICAN MUSIC SCENE IN THE 1970S.

SONGS CREATED IN THE RHYME, RHYTHM, AND SPOKEN WORD GENRE HAVE OFTEN BEEN INSPIRED BY THE ROUGH AND GRITTY LIVES OF THE YOUNG, MOSTLY BLACK AND BROWN, ARTISTS.

NOW, RAP MUSIC HAS TOPPED ROCK AS THE BIGGEST MUSIC GENRE.

BUT RAP ARTISTS HAVE ENDED UP CHARGED AND JAILED-- SINGLED OUT BY PROSECUTORS, WHO HAVE CLAIMED THEIR LYRICS REVEAL CRIMINAL INTENT.

WHY IS THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH NOT PROTECTED?

AND WILL THIS CRIMINALIZING OF RAP INFLUENCE OTHER KINDS OF CREATIVE EXPRESSION?

JOINING US THIS EVENING: RENEÉE GRAHAM, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND OPINION COLUMNIST OF THE "BOSTON GLOBE'S" OP-ED PAGE.

MICHAEL P. JEFFRIES, PROFESSOR AND DEAN OF ACADEMIC AFFAIRS, WELLESLEY COLLEGE, AND AUTHOR OF "THUG LIFE: RACE, GENDER, AND THE MEANING OF HIP-HOP."

DANIELLE SCOTT, A.K.A.

"QUEEN D.," M.C., VOCALIST, SONGWRITER, PRODUCER, PH.D CANDIDATE AT BROWN UNIVERSITY, AND PROFESSOR, ENSEMBLE DEPARTMENT, BERKLEE COLLEGE OF MUSIC.

AND JOINING US REMOTELY TRACI GRIFFITH, DIRECTOR RACIAL JUSTICE PROGRAM, A.C.L.U.

OF MASSACHUSETTS.

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING WITH YOU, MICHAEL, BECAUSE YOU'VE SAID THAT RAP WAS REALLY NEVER CONSIDERED AN ART FORM, AND MAYBE THAT'S WHERE THIS STARTS.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, RAP MUSIC REALLY SORT OF BURSTING ON TO A NATIONAL SCENE, ONCE IT BECAME A PART OF MAINSTREAM AMERICAN POPULAR CULTURE, IT WAS ALWAYS SORTED DOUBTED AS TO ITS STAYING POWER AND CULTURE LEGITIMACY, RIGHT, CULTURAL LEGITIMACY BECAUSE RAP WAS SORT OF BORROWING FROM OTHER KINDS OF MUSIC SO IT WASN'T ORIGINAL ENOUGH, AND IN TERMS OF THE ARTISTIC SCHOOL, THEY WEREN'T SINGING, IT WASN'T MELODIC SO HOW MUCH TALENT DID IT TAKE TOUM BE A RAPPER.

MANY PEOPLE IN THE CULTURE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A FAD, AND THIS KIND OF DOUBT AS TO THE STAYING POWER OF RAP MUSIC HAS CHIPPED AWAY AT ITS LEGITIMACY, NOT TO MENTION SOME OF THE OBJECTING LYRICS WE'VE HEARD IN RAP MUSIC, ESPECIALLY ONCE IT BECAME COMMERCIALLY POPULAR.

FROM THE BEGINNING, THOSE CONCERNS WERE MAYBE UNDERLYING A LITTLE BIT, BUT ONCE IT BURST ON TO THE MAINSTREAM AND BECAME A THREAT TO THE MORAL FABRIC OF "WHITE AMERICA," THEN THE MORAL PANIC AROUND RAP CONTRIBUTED TO ALL THAT UNDERLYING DOUBT ABOUT ITS LEGITIMACY AS AN ART FORM.

>> Crossley: RENEÉE, YOU THINK THIS HAS BEEN THE FOLKS ON THE SURVEILLANCE OF LYRICS BY RAP ARTISTS INTENTIONAL?

>> I THINK RAP BECAUSE IT'S PRIMARILY MADE BY BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE, THERE'S NEVER BEEN A LOT OF DAYLIGHT BETWEEN THE ART AND THE ARTIST.

SOME OF THAT IS INTENTIONAL BECAUSE YOU WILL HEAR ARTISTS TALK ABOUT AUTHENTICITY AND KEEPING IT REAL, BUT IT'S ALSO THEY ARE NOT GIVEN CREATIVE LICENSE TO TELL A STORY ABOUT SOMETHING THAT ISN'T DIRECTLY FROM THEIR OWN LIVES.

THERE WAS OPPORTUNITY SAME KIND OF ATTENTION ON RAP.

WHEN PEOPLE STARTED INVESTIGATING IS WHEN MORE WHITE KIDS STARTED LISTENING TO RAP, WHEN MTV STARTED PLAYING HIP-HOP VIDEOS WHICH THEY DID NOT DO IN THE BEGINNING.

WHEN WHITE KIDS PAID MORE ATTENTION, THE WHITE POWER STRUCTURES PAID MORE ATTENTION TO IT AND WHAT THE LYRICS WERE DOING AND THEY USED THE LYRICS TO CRIMINALIZE THE ARTIST.

IT WASN'T THEY WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT A CRIME, THAT THEY THEREFORE MUST BE COMMITTING A CRIME.

IN 1993 THERE WAS A FAMOUS INFAMOUS "NEWSWEEK" COVER WITH SNOOP DOGG LOOKING SKETCHY AND THE HEADLINE IS WHEN IS RAP TOO VIOLENT?

THE SUBJECT WAS HIS ALBUM HITS THE TOP TO HAVE THE CHARTS, LAST WEEK HE WAS INDICTED FOR MURDER, THEY WERE MARRYING THE TWO THINGS TOGETHER AND THAT THE WHAT HAPPENED IN HIS MURDER TRIAL, OF COURSE ACQUITTED, BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MURDER TRIAL, THEY USED SOME OF HIS ACTUAL LYRICS IN THE TRIAL TO MAKE THEIR CASE, TO VIEW HIS ART AS EVIDENCE.

>> Crossley: SO "QUEEN D.," HERE WE ARE YEARS LATER AND SNOOP DOGG IS MAKING A COOKBOOK WITH MARTHA STEWART, IN EVERY AD IMAGINABLE.

PEOPLE DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT HISTORY AT ALL.

HIS LYRICS WHERE STILL THE LYRICS, BUT SOMEHOW, HE IS NOT, YOU KNOW, THOUGHT OF AS SOMEONE WHO NEEDS TO BE SURVEILLED IN THAT WAY.

BUT, AS YOU HAVE SAID, THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF FOLKS THAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT WHO HAVE BEEN ACCUSED AND ARE EVEN JAILED AT THIS POINT.

TELL US ABOUT THAT AND WHY.

>> YEAH.

THERE IS A TARGETING OF THE UNKNOWN, THE ASPIRING RAPPER, BECAUSE THEY WON'T GET THE MEDIA ATTENTION, AND, SO, THEN, IT BECOMES EASY FOR THE EVIDENCE TO BE ADMITTED AND THERE'S NO OUTCRY BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHO THESE RAPPERS ARE, THESE TEENAGERS, THESE YOUNG ADULTS, COLLEGE STUDENTS, AND, SO, YOU END UP WITH, LIKE CLYDE SMITH, FOR INSTANCE, SENTENCED TO 30 YEARS FOR POSSESSION OF PRESCRIPTION DRUGS THAT HE HAD A PRESCRIPTION FOR, THAT THERE WAS NO PILLS MISSING, AND HE ENDED UP BEING CHARGED AND FOUND GUILTY OF INTENT TO DISTRIBUTE, AND HE WAS AN UNKNOWN, LOCAL RAPPER, IN HOUSTON, I BELIEVE, AND BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE A BIG NAME, HE WAS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE COMMUNITY, NOBODY KNEW WHO HE WAS.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE STILL DON'T KNOW WHO HE WAS UNLESS YOU'RE READING AND RESEARCHING A RAP ON TRIAL AND LYRICS BEING ADMITTED AS EVIDENCE.

>> Crossley: SO THEY ARE NOT COMING FOR JAY-Z.

>> NO.

>> Crossley: EVEN IF THE LYRICS SEEM VERY MUCH THE SAME, THEY'RE NOT COMING FOR JAY-Z.

>> THEY'RE NOT COMING FOR JAY-Z.

AND SNOOP DOGG HAS A CHILDREN'S SHOW SO I DON'T THINK THEY'RE COMING FOR HIM ANYMORE.

>> Crossley: TRACY, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU'VE SAID GOING BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THIS CONVERSATION IS THERE ARE A WHOLE LOT OF FOLKS INVOLVED IN THE PROSECUTOR'S OFFICE OR ALONG THE WAY IN THE SYSTEM IN ADDITION TO FOLKS ON JURIES, WHO MIGHT BE LOOKING AT RAPPERS, WHO HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE GENRE, SO, THEREFORE, THEY ARE DISTANCED FROM IT, AND THE INCLINATION IS, WELL, SOUNDS VIOLENT, SOUNDS LIKE COULD BE REAL, YEAH.

WHY WOULDN'T THEY BE GUILTY?

TALK TO ME ABOUT WHY THAT IS AN ISSUE.

>> SURE.

THAT FUNDAMENTAL LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT RAP IS, WHAT RAP REPRESENTS, CONTRIBUTES TO THE PREJUDICE THAT WE'RE SEEING IN A LOT OF THESE -- IN A LOT OF THESE VERDICTS, AND THE FACT THAT THESE LYRICS ARE BEING USED TO KIND OF DEMONSTRATE CHARACTER, DEMONSTRATE INTENT ON THE PART OF THE ARTIST IS HIGHLIGHTED, MAGNIFIED BY THE FACT THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERPRETING THOSE LYRICS REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM AT ALL.

AND, SO, IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, YOU'RE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE PREJUDICED IN YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THEM.

AND THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF STUDIES WHERE THE EXACT SAME LYRICS HAVE BEEN USED AND PRESENTED TO PEOPLE IN THE STUDY, AND IF THEY ARE TOLD THE LYRICS COME FROM A COUNTRY SONG RATHER THAN A RAP SONG, THEY INTERPRET THOSE EXACT SAME LYRICS TO BE LESS PROBLEMATIC, TO BE LESS VIOLENT, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE EXACT SAME WORDS, RIGHT.

AND THAT DEMONSTRATES THE PREJUDICIAL IMPACT OF THESE LYRICS BEING USED IN COURT.

>> Crossley: OKAY.

SO HERE'S WHAT I WANT TO DO, A QUICK ROUND ROBIN FROM ALL OF YOU PICKING UP ON WHAT TRACI JUST SAID.

GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF OTHER FOLKS IN OTHER GENRES WHO USED SAME KIND OF LYRICS AND NOBODY CAME FOR THEM.

YOU RENEÉE.

>> HEAVY METAL ARTISTS FROM JUDAS PRIEST TO BLACK SABBATH, THEY WERE BROUGHT INTO COURT BUT NOT IN THE WAY WE WERE SEEING WHAT HAPPENED WITH RAPPERS.

>> BOB MARLEY "I SHOT THE SHERIFF," A CLASSIC EXAMPLE AND THE OUTCRY NEVER CAME.

>> "BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY," PUT A GUN UP TO HIS HEAD, PULL THE TRIGGER, NOW HE'S DEAD.

>> Crossley: YOU MENTIONED A MARTINA McBRIDE SONG, BURNING DOWN THE HOUSE WITH AN ABUSER IN IT, AND NOBODY SAID, MARTINA, WE NEED TO SEE YOU IN COURT.

>> OR THE CHICKS "GOODBYE EARL."

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SONGS THAT DEAL WITH MURDER AND VIOLENCE THAT DO NOT GET THE SCRUTINY HIP-HOP ARTISTS GET.

>> Crossley: SO WE'RE ESTABLISHING THERE'S A DOUBLE STANDARD AND, TRACI, I'M COMING BACK TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE THE LAWYER AT ACLU, OKAY.

SO WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, RIGHT, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO SAY THIS, IT SHOULD BE PROTECTED, BUT YOU POINT OUT THERE'S NUANCE IN THAT, SO HOW ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE USING CREATIVE, ARTISTIC EXPRESSION HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH BEING PROSECUTED FOR LYRICS, NOT ACTION AND NOT EVIDENCE THAT THE LYRICS ARE CONNECTED TO ANYTHING?

>> YEAH, THAT'S REALLY THE QUESTION, RIGHT?

HOW ARE THESE LYRICS BEING USED IN COURT AGAINST THE DEFENDANT?

AND WHAT THE CRTSD ARE TRYING TO BALANCE OUT IS THE FACT THAT, LOOK, THE WORDS THEMSELVES MUST HAVE SOME KIND OF LITERAL MEANING, AND A STRONG, FACTUAL CONNECTION TO THE ACTUAL CASE.

IF THAT IS NOT PRESENT, THEN THE LYRICS SHOULD NOT BE USED.

>> Crossley: OKAY.

SO, CALIFORNIA HAS JUST SIGNED INTO LAW A BILL THAT SAYS JUST THAT.

I THINK WE HAVE A CLIP OF GAVIN NEWSOM, THE GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA, MAKING THAT LAW FOR REAL.

THIS IS PROTECTING CREATIVE CONTENTED FROM BEINGS USED AGAINST ARTISTS IN COURT WITHOUT JUDICIAL REVIEW.

SEVERAL HIP HOP ARTISTS JOINED GOVERNOR NEWSOM AS HE SIGNED THE BILL.

TAKE A LOOK.

>> THANK YOU GUYS FOR HOLDING US TO A HIGHER LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND EXPECTATION.

NO ONE HAS DONE THIS.

FUTURE HAPPENS HERE FIRST IN CALIFORNIA.

WE EXPECT AND HOPE THIS IS A BILL THAT'S MODELED AND REPLICATED.

>> TO BE FROM CALIFORNIA, CALIFORNIA TO BE ONE OF THE FIRST STATES TO PASS THIS LAW, ME BEING AN ARTIST WHO CAME UP THROUGH THE STREETS IS GOING TO MEAN A LOT.

>> IT WILL ALLOW ARTISTS LIKE MYSELF AND THESE GUYS TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES.

>> IT'S IMPORTANT FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

WE SHOULD BE FREE TO HAVE CREATIVE EXPRESSION.

>> TODAY IS A GREAT DAY FOR MUSIC-MAKER.

>> FILM-MAKER AND ARTISTS, HIP-HOP IS NOT PROSECUTED JUST FOR BEING HIP-HOP.

>> I FEEL LIKE THIS IS OUR HEART AND AS A CALIFORNIA NATIVE, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR PROTECTING OUR ART.

>> US HAVING ACCESS TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO A GOVERNOR, THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

I THINK THAT'S JUST LIKE A BRIDGE THAT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE.

YOU'VE GOT TO OPEN WIDE.

I THINK THAT'S EFFECTIVE FOR PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF AND PEOPLE THAT COME FROM WHERE I COME FROM.

>> MORE AFRICAN-AMERICANS UNJUSTLY PROSECUTED FOR EXERCISING THEIR RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH, AND THIS LAW, ONCE BROTHER GAVIN SIGNS IT, WILL PROTECT EVERYONE'S FREEDOM TO EXPRESS THEIR ARTISTIC TALENT.

>> IT WILL NEVER GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL FORM, SO WE STRESS TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN.

>> Crossley: SO HATS CALIFORNIA.

THERE HAS BEEN THE PASSAGE OF A SIMILAR BILL IN NEW YORK BUT ONLY IN TESTIFY HOUSE.

IT HASN'T MOVED FORWARD, ONLY IN THE SENATE.

HASN'T MOVED FORWARD YET.

AND THERE'S SOME CONVERSATION ABOUT SUCH A BILL HAPPENING IN MASSACHUSETTS, BUT SO FAR NOT.

THERE'S ALSO, WE SHOULD MENTION, A NATIONAL LAW ON THE BOOKS RESTORING ARTISTS -- IT'S CALLED THE RAP ACT, AND, SO, THERE'S SOME QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

DO YOU THINK CALIFORNIA CAN INFLUENCE OTHER STATES?

>> I THINK THEY CAN.

I WOULDN'T VENTURE A GUESS AS TO WHAT'S HAPPENING AT A NATIONAL LEVEL.

FIRST OF ALL, THE ISSUE IS BROUGHT TO LIGHT IN A WAY IT NEVER WAS.

THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR DECADES.

THE FOLKS STUDYING THIS IN THE ACADEMY, THERE'S NO ESTABLISHED RECORD OF HOW FRECTLY THESE LYRICS GET INTRODUCED IN COURT, SO WE DON'T KNOW THE SCALE OF THE PROBLEM.

SHINING A LIGHT ON SOMETHING THAT MAY BE DEEPER THAN WHAT WE ORIGINALLY THOUGHT.

IT'S COMMON SENSE NOT ONLY BECAUSE IT PROTECTS RAPPERS IN PARTICULAR BUT AS YOU HEARD THIS IS ABOUT FREE SPEECH MORE BROADLY IN ALL FORMS OF ARTISTIC EXPRESSION.

>> Crossley: I WANT TO TALK TO YOU, "QUEEN D.," BECAUSE YOU ARE A PERFORMER BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING, I DON'T LIKE RAP, NEVER LIKED IT, THE LYRICS SEEM KIND OF VIOLENT TO ME, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE DRAW?

YOU'VE SPOKEN ABOUT THE EPIPHANY YOU HAVE ABOUT THE POWER OF THE STORYTELLING IN RAP FROM NOTORIOUS B.I.G.

'S SONG CALLED "THE WARNING."

I PULLED A FEW LYRICS FROM THAT.

I WANT YOU TO TELL ME ABOUT IT.

THEY HEARD ABOUT THE ROLEXES AND THE LEXUS WITH THE TEXAS LICENSE PLATE OUT OF STATE, THEY HEARD ABOUT THE POUNDS YOU'VE GOT DOWN IN GEORGETOWN AND THEY HEARD YOU'VE GOT HALF OF VIRGINIA LOCKED DOWN, THEY EVEN HEARD ABOUT THE CRIBS YOU BOUGHT YOUR MOMS IN SHOVEL, THE FIFTH QUARTER.

SO THIS IS RESPONSE TO FRIENDS HE WAS BROUGHT UP WITH IN FLORIDA AND NOW HE'S RICH AND THEY'RE COMING FOR HIM.

>> THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I WAS INTO STORYTELLING AND THE FIRST TIME I HEARD A STORY SO VIVID TOLD IN THREE-MINUTE TIME FRAME.

IT REALLY OPENED MY EYES TO THE POWER OF HIP-HOP STORYTELLING, IN PARTICULAR.

I THINK THAT THERE IS -- JAY-Z SAYS IT BEST IN HIS DECODED BOOK, HE SAYS THAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT EVERY GREAT RAPPER IS A DOCUMENTARIAN AND A TRICKSTER, AND WHAT WE SEE IN THIS POLICING OF BLACK VOICES IS THAT WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE A TRICKSTER PERSONALITY, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO BE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEGEND AND FOLK LOWER AND ALL TYPES OF COMMUNAL ASPECT OF FICTION THAT HAVE BEEN IN EVERY SORT OF COMMUNITY.

AND, SO, EVERYTHING THAT PEOPLE HERE, IN PARTICULARLY IN HIP-HOP, THEY TAKE IT AS GOSPEL.

THEY TAKE IT AS THE 100 YOU MUST HAVE GROWN UP LIKE THIS, YOU MUST BE STILL INVOLVED IN THIS LIFE.

YOU'RE UNABLE TO EVOLVE FROM IT.

YOU'RE UNABLE TO BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOUR ARTIST BRAND IS PRESENTING.

I THINK THAT'S WHY KENDRA LAMAR OFTEN SAYS I WAS IN BETWEEN THIS LIFE, I HAD ONE FOOT IN OR KNEW PEOPLE WHO DID BANG BUT I NEVER DID IT, AND HE ALWAYS MAKES THAT DISTINCTION BECAUSE HE KNOWS HIS VOICE IS BEING POLICED.

>> Crossley: SO, MICHAEL, THE WHOLE THING ABOUT RAP, FROM RAP ARTISTS THEMSELVES IS WE ARE AUTHENTIC, WE ARE THE AUTHENTIC VOICES OF OUR FRIENDS AND OUR COMMUNITY.

SO THAT LEAVES IT OPEN FOR SOME OF THESE FOLKS, EVEN THOUGH WE'VE DISCUSSED THEY'RE NOT DOING IT FOR MARTINA McBRIDE OR THE HEAVY METAL FOLKS, BUT YET AND STILL THAT LEAVES IT OPEN FOR PROSECUTORS SO SAY, WELL, NOW, YOU SAID YOU'RE AUTHENTIC, SO IF YOU'RE SINGING ABOUT IT, THAT MUST BE REAL.

>> YEAH, THIS KIND OF ARGUMENT TO ME -- AND I WOULD DEFER TO THE LAWYER IN OUR RANKS -- BUT THIS KIND OF ARGUMENT DOESN'T MAKE A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE.

IF YOU HAVE THE EVIDENCE AND YOU'RE PROSECUTING SOMEONE, THE EVIDENCE THAT RELATES TO THE CRIME, WHY DO YOU THEN NEED TO INTRODUCE THE LYRICS?

IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE EVIDENCE, YOU SHOULDN'T BE INTRODUCING THE LYRICS BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE EVIDENCE.

EITHER WAY, YOU DON'T NEED THAT TO DO YOUR JOB, IT SEEMS TO ME.

SO THAT'S ONE PIECE OF IT.

THE OTHER PIECE OF IT IS, I MEAN, THIS TROPE OF AUTHENTICITY IN THE MUSIC I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT WHERE IT COMES FROM AND WHO'S ACTUALLY SUPPORTING IT.

ON THE ONE HAND WE OFTEN HEAR RAP, SAY I'M REPRESENTING MY COMMUNITY IN AN AUTHENTIC WAY, THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S A FACTUAL ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT DATE AND WHAT THE THERE.

SECONDLY, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE VERSION OF AUTHENTICITY NAT GETS HIGHLIGHTED AND HELD UP IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY IS THE "AUTHENTICITY" AROUND CRIMINALITY AND BLACK VIOLENCE, BUT IT WAS A SELF-FULFILLING CYCLE WHEN IT COMES TO HISTORICALLY THE MUSIC INDUSTRY HAS BACKED BY SALABLE ACTS.

WHEN YOU HAD WHITE INVESTMENT IN HIP-HOP IN THE '90s FOR THE FIRST TIME, MANY OF THE YOUNG PURCHASES OF THAT MUSIC WANTED TO SEE THAT KIND OF REPRESENTATION BECAUSE IT WAS THRILLING, BECAUSE IT WAS SENSATIONAL AND BECAUSE IT WAS "REAL."

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S AN ACTUAL REFLECTION OF THE BREADTH AND DEPTH OF BLACK LIFE IN UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES AND MORE BROADLY.

NOT EVERY RAPPER COMES WITH CERTAIN SENTENCES AND THAT'S A STORY WE NEVER TALKN'T.

>> Crossley: RENEÉE, THERE ARE WHITE RAPPERS AND THEY'RE SINGING THE SAME KIND OF STUFF.

EMINEM.

THE BIGGEST IS JACK HARLOW.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHO WAS A FEW MONTHS AGO, BUT THERE YOU HAVE IT, AND YET THEY'RE NOT UNDER THE SAME LEVEL OF SURVEILLANCE.

THE JACK HARLOW THING IS A WHOLE OTHER THING I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GET INTO IT.

JOHNNY CASH DID A THREE C.D.

BOX SET "LOVE, GOD AND MURDER."

HE HAD AN ENTIRE C.D.

OF SONGS ABOUT MURDER HE HAD MADE FROM SPRINGTIME ALASKA, FOLSOM PRISON BLUES AND SPRINGTIME BLUES, NO ONE HELD THAT AGAINST HIM AS TO WHO THIS IS WHO JOHNNY CASH WAS.

HE DIDN'T SPEND TIME IN PRISON.

HE SANG IN PRISON FOR PRISONERS.

HE WAS GIVEN A LEEWAY THAT RAPPERS DON'T HAVE AND DON'T HAVE IT BECAUSE STILL PRIMARILY IS ART FORM IS DOMINATED BY BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE AND BLACK AND BROWN MEN IN PARTICULAR, AND THIS COUNTRY IS ALREADY INCLINED TO VIEW THEM THROUGH A LENS OF CRIMINALITY, AND, SO, ANYTHING THEY DO GETS PUT UNDER THAT SPOTLIGHT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHY THERE'S A DIFFERENT WITH WHITE RAPPERS AND BLACK RAPPERS.

WHITE RAPPERS ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE THIS IN THE SUBURBS AND THIS AND THAT BUT BLACK RAPPERS DON'T GET THAT SO NO MATTER WHAT YOU SING ABOUT, IT'S TAKEN AS ART AND NOT CONFESSION AND THAT'S NOT JUST LIMITING FOR THEM, IT SHOULD BE LIMITING TO ALL ARTISTS.

ALL ARTISTS SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

BUT WE NOTICE MARTIN SCORSESE ISN'T HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HE PUT IN HIS FILMS OR TARANTINO.

BRAD PITH HAS BEEN IN THE NEWS PAUSE OF WHAT ANGELINA JOLIE MADE, ACCUSATIONS OF HIM BEING VIOLENT AGAINST HER AND HER CHILDREN.

BRAD PITT PLAYED A ROLE OF A MAN WHO MURDERED HIS WIFE.

I'VE SEEN NO CORRELATION, HE PLAYED THAT IN A FIRM SO THAT'S WHO HE MUST BE.

YOU HAVE TO GIVE ARTISTS, REGARDLESS OF RACE, THE FREEDOM TO CREATE.

HOPEFULLY WHAT THE CALIFORNIA LAW DOES IS ALLOWS THAT.

I THINK AT THIS POINT IT MIGHT BE MORE SYMBOLIC BUT I THINK IT'S AN IMPORTANT SYMBOL AND FIRST STEP.

>> Crossley: TRACY, WE'VE ESTABLISHED IN THIS CONVERSATION TROPICAL STORM A CLEAR DOUBLE STANDARD AND, FRANKLY, IT'S RACIST, WHAT HAPPENS NOW, WITH MORE HIGHLIGHTED FOCUS ON WHAT THE PROBLEM IS?

CAN'T THIS BE STOPPED?

IS THERE NOT MORE AMMUNITION WITH THIS LAW FROM CALIFORNIA AND EVEN WITH THE POTENTIAL OF THE FEDERAL LAW TO SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, OTHER STUFF NEEDS TO BE HAPPENING IN COURT WHEN SOME OF THESE ARTISTS ARE PROSECUTED, FRANKLY?

>> YES.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE PROFESSORS ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THIS BICE AGAINST RAP, IN PARTICULAR, IT FOLLOWS THE RACIST TROPES BLACK PEOPLE WOULD BE CRIMINALS AND VIOLENT, AND, REALLY, RAP IS THE ONLY FICTIONAL FORM OF ART THAT IS USED IN COURT IN THIS WAY, AND I THINK THERE'S NO MYSTERY AS TO WHY.

AND OUR OTHER GUESTS HAVE TALKED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHY.

AND, SO, WE NEED TO LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, THE CALIFORNIA LAW, HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, NEW YORK WILL ALSO PASS A SIMILAR LAW.

AND, YOU KNOW, OFTEN, YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK TO THOSE TWO STATES, RIGHT, A LOT OF LEGISLATION COMES OUT OF THOSE STATES, AND HOPEFULLY SOME OF THE OTHER JURISDICTIONS WILL LOOK TO THOSE STATES AND SAY, LOOK, IF THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE HAPPENING IN OUR COURT SYSTEM AS WELL, WE NEED PROTECTION FOR THE ARTISTS AND MAYBE FOLLOWING THEIR DIRECTION.

AND, YOU BE, THERE'S A CASE HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS AND, YOU KNOW, HE'S APPEALING.

HE WAS CONVICTED.

THE DEFENSE SAYS THEY USED HIS LYRICS AS EVIDENCE AND THAT IT WAS PREJUDICIAL, JUST EXACTLY WHAT THE LAW IN CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK ARE GETTING AT, RIGHT, - THE ISSUE THAT THESE LYRICS ARE BEING USED IN A PREJUDICIAL WAY AGAINST THE DEFENDANT.

SO HE'S APPEALING THE CONVICTION AND WE'LL SEE WHAT IT TURNS OUT, THAT MAY GIVE US SOME IDEA WHERE MASSACHUSETTS MIGHT GO WITH THIS.

>> Crossley: MICHAEL, YOU'RE CONCERNED THIS REPRESENTS AN ATTACK ON FUTURE GENERATIONS WHILE THIS IS BEING WORKED OUT?

>> NO QUESTION.

THIS IS THE THING -- BECAUSE THE TARGETS RIGHT NOW ARE FOLKS WHO ARE LEAST ABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES -- "QUEEN D." MENTIONED USUALLY IT'S RAPPERS WHO DON'T HAVE FINANCIAL BACKING TO FIGHT THE CHARGES AND AREN'T GOING TO GET A LOT OF ATTENTION, IT'S KIND OF BEEN ABLE TO RESIDE UNDERGROUND, BUT, REALLY, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS AS AN ATTACK ON FREE SPEECH MORE BROADLY.

THAT'S WHAT IT IS.

AND IN A CLIMATE WHERE SO MANY OF OUR CIVIL RIGHTS AND FIRST AMENDMENT AND SO ON PROTECTIONS ARE BEING CHALLENGED, THIS SHOULD BE AN ALARM BELL THAT EVERYONE HEARS, RIGHT, BECAUSE IF YOU START CHIPPING AWAY AT FREE SPEECH IN ONE ARENA, WHERE DOES IT STOP?

I THINK THAT'S THE CONCERN THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SHARE, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT WE'RE FANS OF RAP MUSIC OR UNDERSTAND RAP MUSIC OR WE'RE SYMPATHETIC OR NOT SYMPATHETIC TO THE RAPPERS, YOU HAVE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE EROSION OF FREE SPEECH, AND THIS IS A BAD SIGN, MIND YOU.

>> Crossley: "QUEEN D.," BRIEFLY TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE TO TELL YOUR BLACK STUDENTS IN YOUR HIP-HOP CLASS ABOUT REALLY LOOKING TOWARD UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE CENTERED AND SURVEILLED -- CENSORED AND SURVEILLED.

>> ERIC HAS A BOOK CALLED PARENTAL ADVISORY THAT DEALS WITH CENSORSHIP IN AMERICA AND SAYS CENSORSHIP HAS LESS TO DO WITH APPROPRIATE EXPRESSION AND MORE TO DO WITH APPROPRIATE PEOPLE IN DEFINING WHO IS ALLOWED TO BE CREATIVE, TO BE IMAGINATIVE, AND WHO IS DISALLOWED FROM THOSE THINGS.

SO WE TALK A LOT ABOUT WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF THEIR WORDS, THOUSAND THEY WILL BE POLICED, THOSE WHO ARE NOT OF COLOR OR NOT BLACK, HOW THEY WILL HAVE PRIVILEGES IN THOSE AREAS, AND I HAVE THEM THINK ABOUT WHAT DOES CENSORSHIP LOOK LIKE TODAY SO THERE ARE NOT JUST RAP LYRICS BEING BROUGHT IN AS EVIDENCE IN A TRIAL, BUT ALSO THERE IS CANCEL CULTURE, AND THAT IS, FOR THEM, OF PARTICULAR CONCERN BECAUSE IT IS THE SILENCING OF THEMSELVES AS ARTISTS IN THE SOCIETY AT LARGE, WHILE STILL BEING ABLE TO ROAM AROUND FREE BUT NOT BEING ABLE TO -- >> Crossley: AND IT'S CLEAR YOU HAVE BLACK STUDENTS AND OTHERS IN YOUR CLASS BUT THIS IS A MESSAGE TO THE BLACK STUDENTS?

>> THIS IS A MESSAGE TO ALL THE STUDENTS BECAUSE I HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS THAT -- >> Crossley: WHAT THE DEAL IS.

DASH YEAH, WHAT THE DEAL IS AND THAT THEY WILL HAVE PRIVILEGE AND NOT PRIVILEGE DEPENDING ON THEIR RACE.

>> Crossley: RENEÉE GRAHAM, WE SAT IN THIS CHAIR TO TALK ABOUT THE VARIOUS RACIST ATTACKS ON BLACK FOLKS MANY TIMES, BUT THE ONE ON CREATIVITY HAS A KIND OF POWER BECAUSE IT RESONATES IN SO MUCH OF WHAT BLACK FOLK DO.

SO YOU GET THE LAST WORD TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT OF PUTTING THE SQUEEZE ON BLACK CREATIVITY.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO THE POLICING OF BLACKNESS IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH GOES BACK TO THE ORIGINS OF THIS NATION.

YOU KNOW, WHAT BLACK PEOPLE CAN SAY, WHAT THEY CAN DO, WHERE THEY CAN GO, YOU KNOW, THAT IS THE WAY THIS NATION HAS ALWAYS OPERATED.

IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT THEY WOULD DO THAT TO ARTISTIC ART FORMS AS WELL, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT'S SO POPULAR, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IT IS THE SOUND OF YOUNG AMERICA AS MOTOWN USED TO SAY IT WAS BECAUSE THAT, YOU KNOW, RAP IS THE DOMINANT MUSIC IN AMERICA THESE DAYS, AND THAT'S VERY THREATENING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE, SO WHAT THEY CAN DO IS TRY TO SHUT IT DOWN AND POLICE IT.

>> Crossley: I THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING ME.

IT'S AN EXCITING IF NOT SAD CONVERSATION AND A THOUGHTFUL ONE AND WE'LL HAVE TO NO DOUBT CONTINUE THIS SOME TIME IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT'S OVER.

THAT'S THE END OF OUR BROADCAST, AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

GOOD NIGHT.

CAPTIONED BY MEDIA ACCESS GROUP AT WGBH ACCESS.WGBH.ORG