>> THE >> HIGH-PROFILE RESIGNATION OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY'S FIRST BLACK FEMALE PRESIDENT CONTINUES TO SPARK COMMENTARY.

CLAUDINE RESIGNED LAST WEEK AFTER BACKLASH TO HER TESTIMONY AT A CONGRESSIONAL HEARING WHERE SHE WAS CRITICIZED FOR NOT DOING ENOUGH TO TACKLE ANTI-SEMITISM ON CAMPUS.

SHE ALSO FACED ACCUSATIONS OF PLAGIARISM.

HOWEVER, DAYS SUPPORTERS SAY HER OUSTER REFLECTS A SYSTEM THAT WASN'T BUILT FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR.

JOINING US NOW TO DISCUSS CASE RESIGNATION ARE ALVIN TILLERY, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF DIVERSITY AND DEMOCRACY AT NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY AND DOMINIQUE JORDAN TURNER, A DIVERSITY EQUITY AND INCLUSION CONSULTANT.

WE SHOULD MENTION WE DID REACH OUT TO A NUMBER OF ORGANIZATIONS WHO EXPRESSED CONCERN OVER PRESIDENT TENURE, BUT NONE WERE ABLE TO JOIN US.

WE THINK THE 2 OF YOU FOR JOINING US AND WELCOME THANK YOU FOR HAVING OUT OF A START WITH YOU.

YOU JUST A YEAR BEHIND CLAUDINE AT IN YOUR GRADUATE PROGRAM.

SAME GRADUATE PROGRAM.

HOW DO YOU VIEW WHAT'S PRECIPITATED?

>> WELL, THIS WELL, I AM ALSO I ALSO WORK IN THE SAME EXACT FIELD THAT SHE DOES AS AN ACADEMIC AND I VIEW THE INCIDENT GREAT SADNESS DEAN WAS ABSOLUTELY THE TOP OF OUR FIELD.

SHE WAS THE BEST GRADUATE STUDENT OF OUR GENERATION ARE ONE OF THE BEST PRACTICES IN OUR GENERATION.

AND I DON'T KNOW MANY PROFESSIONAL POLITICAL SCIENTISTS TO ACTUALLY BUY THE PLAGIARISM CHARGES AGAINST SO TO WATCH HER BE SORT OF USHERED OUT AFTER 6 ON THE JOB BY SORT OF REST OF IT REALLY RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THEY WERE EVER GOING TO SUPPORT HER OR WHETHER THEY WOULD EVER SUPPORT ANY BLACK WOMAN IN THE POSITION.

AND I WANT TO COME BACK TO THE ROLE OF DONORS A LITTLE BIT LATER ON IN THIS DISCUSSION TO.

BUT DOMINIQUE, SAME QUESTION TO YOU.

WHAT'S BEEN YOUR REACTION TO THE EVENTS THAT LED TO HER RESIGNATION?

I THINK THE FIRST THING THAT I HAVE TO SAY IS DOCTOR CALLING KATE DARED TO BE THE VERY FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO TAKE ON THIS ROLE.

>> AT ONE OF AMERICA'S OLDEST EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.

AND IF YOU'VE EVER BEEN THE FIRST ONLY IN ANY OF THOSE WORLDS, YOU'RE RECOGNIZED, BUT IT TAKES GREAT RESILIENCE AND 42 TO DO THAT.

AND SO AS A BLACK WOMAN LEADER, INCREDIBLY PROUD OF WHAT SHE'S BUT I'M ALSO SADDENED, AS AL MENTIONED BUT I'M ALSO ON SURPRISE.

I WASN'T SURPRISED.

I THINK MANY OF US IN HIGHER EDUCATION IN INDIA, WALLS ARE UNSURPRISED THAT THIS WAS THE OUTCOME.

SO WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF SOUND HERE.

SHE IS QUOTING A RESPONDING TO A QUESTION ABOUT WHAT ISN'T IS NOT PROTECTED SPEECH ON CAMPUS.

>> STAGES.

AND THAT EXIST.

THAT PROTECTION EXTENDS EVEN TO SPEECH WE FIND OBJECTIONABLE.

AND OFFENSIVE AND AND EVEN OUTRAGEOUS.

IT'S WHEN SPEECH CROSSES INTO CONDUCT THAT VIOLATES OUR VERY CLEAR POLICIES AROUND BULLYING HARASSMENT, INTIMIDATION.

YOU KNOW THAT IT BECOMES ACTIONABLE.

>> ME WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT ANSWER FAILED TO SATISFY CRITICS?

SO I'VE SERVED IN ROLES AS PRESIDENT CEOS OF ORGANIZATIONS.

AND REALLY TOUGH FOR ALL, ESPECIALLY WHERE YOU LIKE THAT.

I THINK YOU HAVE 2 KINDS OF LEADERS.

YOU HAVE SOME THAT PROTECT THE INSTITUTION AND YOU HAVE THOSE THAT PROTECT THE PEOPLE.

AND I THINK IT'S YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR WISDOM UNDERSTAND WHEN TO LEAN INTO WHICH ROLE.

AND I IT WAS A FAIL FOR ALL OF THE PRESIDENT'S AT THAT TIME.

I THINK THEY LEAD WITH THE ACADEMIC LEGAL AS OPPOSED PEOPLE.

SENATE HUMAN-CENTERED RESPONSE.

AND THAT SAID, YOU KNOW, AFTER AFTER THOSE ONE OF THE PRESIDENT OF UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA DID END UP RESIGNING ON, BUT THEN CAME ACCUSATIONS OF PLAGIARISM AS WELL.

GOT A LITTLE BIT MORE ERROR AFTER THAT HEARING HOWEVER, SOME FOLKS ARGUE THAT, YOU KNOW, THE INACCURATE OR MISSING CITATIONS IN HER WORK, BUT IT DOES AMOUNT OF PLAGIARISM AND THAT IT HARMS THE AUTHORS WHO SHEEN ALLEGEDLY AL, YOU KNOW, SHOULD SOMEONE WHO'S VIOLATED THAT CODE BE ALLOWED TO SIT AT THE TOP OF ONE OF AMERICA'S OLDEST AND MOST STORIED INSTITUTIONS.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WILL SAY THAT AGAIN, IF CUTTING GAZE UP LEADERS FOR WHAT SHE DID IN THOSE ACTIVE IN THE PAPERS WERE ALL PLAY TRUSTS, RIGHT?

I MEAN, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS WHAT SHE WAS DOING >> WAS REFERENCING VERY WELL KNOWN SCIENTIFIC CONCEPTS IN OUR DISCIPLINE AND TESTING THEM WITH DATA AND HYPOTHESES RIGHTS.

S FIRST THING I'LL SAY THE SECOND THING I'LL SAY 30 YEARS AGO BEFORE ALL THE GREAT POWERFUL MACHINES, THOSE OF US THAT WERE WRITING DISSERTATIONS AND BOOKS AND ARTICLES DID SO.

AND WE OCCASIONALLY MADE ERRORS.

I ACTUALLY RAN SEVERAL PAPERS, A FORMER HARVARD PRESIDENTS THROUGH THE AI POWERED PLAGIARISM CHECKERS AND FOUND THAT THEY, TOO HAD MS QUOTATION MARKS.

THE QUESTION I HAVE IS WITH ANY OF THEM HAVE BEEN ASKED TO RESIGN 6 MONTHS ON THE JOB FOR MISSING QUOTATION MARKS.

I DON'T THINK SO.

NOW YOU ALSO WROTE A IN A LINK TO AN ABOUT YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE AT HARVARD AROUND THE SAME TIME, THE EARLY 90'S, WHEN YOU'RE BOTH STUDENTS THERE AND HOW THE UNIVERSITY.

>> PROTECTED SPEECH SPEECH THAT WAS SOMETIMES CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE AND EVEN FRIGHTENING FOR BLACK TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE.

YEAH, I MEAN, EVERYONE.

THE SAME A CLOUDY GAVE THE WRONG ANSWER IS IN THE THAT MOMENT CHANGED THE ANSWERS.

THE REALITY IS THE ANSWERS THAT SHE GAVE.

>> WERE ANSWERS THAT WERE SET UP TO PROTECT THE 50 BILLION DOLLAR HEDGE FUND.

THAT IS HARVARD UNIVERSITY.

AND IF EVERYONE WHO'S HAD EXPERIENCE WITH ELITE RESEARCH, UNIVERSITIES KNOWS HISTORICALLY WE'VE PUNISHED CONDUCT NOT SPEECH.

SO BLACK STUDENTS LIKE CLOUDY NIGHT, HARTFORD WERE EXPOSED TO HATE SPEECH FROM PROFESSORS FROM OTHER STUDENTS.

CONFEDERATE SYMBOLS WERE ALLOWED TO HANG AT HARVARD WHEN WE WERE STUDENTS THERE.

RIGHT?

AND SO WE WERE TRAINED THAT IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ACADEMICS IN A PLACE LIKE HARVARD, WE HAD TO PROTECT SPEECH, INCLUDING HATE SPEECH.

NOW I HAS AN ACADEMIC OF ALWAYS OPPOSE THAT.

I'VE ALWAYS FAVORED MORE RESTRICTIONS ON HATE SPEECH RIGHT?

THE REALITY, THOUGH, IS THAT NO ONE WOULD EVER MAKE ME.

PRESIDENT OF HARVARD WAS TO DEFEND HARVARD UNIVERSITY'S INTERESTS.

AND THAT'S WHY THE LAWYERS WERE THERE WHISPERING IN HER EAR THAT YES, OF COURSE, HATE SPEECH IS PROTECTED.

AND IF THAT UPSETS I UNDERSTAND IT.

UPSET ME HAS A STUDENT.

BUT FOR US TO PRETEND LIKE THAT WAS HER ANSWER AND ISOLATION AND NOT THE INSTITUTIONS ANSWER IS JUST DISHONEST.

DOMINIC, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE NOTION THAT SOME OF HER CRITICS HAVE HAVE PUT FORWARD THAT SHE WAS, QUOTE, A DIVERSITY HIRE.

IT WOULD MEAN WHEN YOU HEAR SOMETHING LIKE THAT AS A BLACK ON PROFESSIONAL, LIKE YOU SAID, FORMER CEO AND PRESIDENT OF ORGANIZATIONS YOURSELF WITH YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING I THINK THERE'S THIS NARRATIVE THAT A DIVERSITY OF SUPPLANTING MERIT AND THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

THEY'RE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO BE REALLY CLEAR THAT THIS WAS AND THAT THE STRATEGY OF CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISTS THAT ACTUALLY LAID OUT THEIR PLAN.

AND THEY SAID THAT IT HAD 3 PRONGS THAT IT WAS REPUTATIONAL, THAT IT WAS FINANCIAL AND IT WAS POLITICAL.

THE POLITICAL PIECE BEGAN WITH THE CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS, THE FINANCIAL PIECE CAME WITH WEAPONIZING DONORS AND THEN THE THE THE AND THE REPUTATIONAL PIECE WAS ABOUT THE PLAGIARISM.

AND SO THIS WAS AN ANTI DEI BACKLASH.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO BE A CONSCIOUS, ESPECIALLY AS CURRENT OR FUTURE COLLEGE PRESIDENTS AND LEADERS TO RECOGNIZE THAT INDIVIDUAL AND POLITICAL AGENDAS ARE AT PLAY HERE.

AND WE WE HAVE TO PROTECT THE INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE INCUBATORS FOR FUTURE