♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR," 89.7.

TONIGHT: READING, WRITING AND BANNING CHILDREN'S BOOKS.

WE, LIKE YOU, ARE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS OF THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC.ùAND ARE TAKING PRECAUTIONS.

WE ARE WORKING WITH LIMITED STAFF AND OUR GUESTS ARE JOINING US REMOTELY.

ABOUT HALF OF ALL AMERICAN CHILDREN ARE NON-WHITE.

But UNTIL THE LAST FEW YEARS, CHILDREN OF COLOR RARELY SAW THEMSELVES IN THE PAGES OF CHILDREN'S BOOKS.

AN INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF AUTHORS, INCLUDING AUTHORS OF COLOR, WRITING ABOUT THE CULTURAL LIVES OF KIDS OF COLOR HAS RESULTED IN A CHILDREN'S MEDIA SLIGHTLY MORE DIVERSE THAN ADULT CONTENT.

NOW THAT PROGRESS IS THREATENED BY A NATIONAL BOOK BANNING CAMPAIGN TARGETING BOOKS BY AUTHORS OF COLOR.

WHAT IS THE DAMAGE DONE BY PREVENTING THESE STORIES TO BE READ?

JOINING US REMOTELY: JABARI ASIM, A PROFESSOR AT EMERSON COLLEGE AND AUTHOR OF SEVERAL CHILDREN AND ADULT BOOKS INCLUDING HIS MOST RECENT NOVEL, "YONDER;" MIA WENJEN, CO-FOUNDER OF MULTICULTURAL CHILDREN'S BOOK DAY AND AUTHOR OF BOOKS FOR KIDS, INCLUDING HER PICTURE BOOK, "SUMO JOE;" DENISE ADUSEI, A PRESCHOOL FOUNDER AND TEACHER, AND THE CO-FOUNDER OF LATIN-X-PITCH AND BLACK CREATORS HEADQUARTERS; AND DR. RAJANI LAROCCA, AUTHOR OF MANY NOVELS AND PICTURE BOOKS, INCLUDING HER AWARD-WINNING BOOK, "RED, WHITE, AND WHOLE."

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

SO I WANTS TO START THIS WAY AND HAVE EACH OF YOU JUST A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF ONE OF YOUR MANY CHILDREN'S BOOKS, START WITH YOU MIA.

SUMOJOE, WHAT'S IT ABOUT?

>> SO SUMO JOE RIGHT HERE IS A RHYMING PICTURE BOOK AND MY INTENT WAS TO SHOW SUMO WASN'T FAT MEN IN DIAPERS.

BRING DIGIT TONIGHT AND RESPECT, PLUS A SIBLING RIVALRY AKIDO VERSUS SUMO.

>> Crossley: VERY GOOD, JABARI.

>> MY FORTHCOMING CHILDREN'S BOOK, ME AND MOHAMMED ALI, BASED ON AN ACTUAL ENCOUNTER THAT MY MOTHER HAD WITH MOHAMMED ALI, MANY YEARS AGO.

IT'S ABOUT A LITTLE BOY GETTING TO MEET HIS HERO, THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD.

>> Crossley: YOUR BOOK COMES OUT THIS YEAR?

>> SHE FEELS MUSIC, THROUGH HER FEET.

AND DOES DOESN'T WANT TO PUT ON ANY SHOES.

>> Crossley: AND RAJANI.

>> SO MY BOOK RED WHITE AND WHOLE IS A NOVEL SET IN REVERSE IN 1983, A 13-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER OF INDIAN IMMIGRANTS.

HER MOTHER IS DIAGNOSED WITH LEUKEMIA AND HER WORLD TURNS UPSIDE DOWN.

SHE FEELS SHE SHOULD JUST BE THE PERFECT DAUGHTER, SHE COULD SOMEHOW SAVE HER MOTHER'S LIFE.

CDC I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO HEAR THE RICH DIVERSITY THAT YOU ALL ARE BRINGING TO CHILDREN'S BOOKS AND THAT OF COURSE IS THE POINT.

WHAT INSPIRED YOU TO WANT TO WRITE THE BOOK THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN TO BE IN THE CHILDREN'S BOOK SPACE.

JAB JABARI, I'LL START WITH YOU.

>> SURE THAT'S AN EASY ONE.

MY WIFE AND I HAVE FIVE CHILDREN.

IS IT OCCURRED TO ME I COULD BE A SOURCE OF ENTERTAINMENT.

SOME OF MY EARLIEST CHILDREN'S BOOKS AROSE FROM MY ACTUAL ENCOUNTERS WITH MY CHILDREN.

> Crossley: SAME QUESTION TO YOU, RAJANI.

>> WHEN I WAS A KID I LOVED BOOKS.

I'VE BEEN PRACTICING MEDICINE FOR A LONG TIME AND ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO, WHEN I STARTED LOOKING AT BEING CREARVET AGAIN I WENT BACK TO WRITING.

AND I WANTED TO WRITE CHILDREN'S BOOKS BECAUSE THE BOOKS THAT MADE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE IN MY LIFE WERE THE ONES I READ AS A KID.

>> Crossley: OKAY, DENISE.

>> SURE.

WHEN I OPENED MY PRESCHOOL ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO, MY PRESCHOOL IS LOCATED IN HARLEM.

I PROMISED THAT MY LIBRARY AT MY SCHOOL WOULD REFLECT AND MIRROR THE CHILDREN IN MY ELM COMMUNITY.

-- MY HARLEM COMMUNITY.

IT WAS HARD FOR ME TO FULFILL THAT PROPOSITION.

I DECIDED TO TAKE IT UPON MYSELF AND WRITE THE BOOKS AND IN ORDER TO SUPPORT OTHER BLACK AND LATINO WRITERS, AS AN EDUCATOR, I WANT MY CHILDREN IN SCHOOL TO SEE THEMSELVES IN BOOKS.

>> Crossley: MIA.

>> I'M 57.

I GREW UP IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

I READ EVERY BOOK IN MY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL LIBRARY AND I NEVER SAW A CHARACTER THAT LOOKED LIKE ME.

AND THEN WHEN I BECAME A BLOGGER LIKE 12 YEARS AGO, I SAWS A STAT THAT THE NUMBER OF DIVERSE BOOKS FOR CHILDREN HADN'T INCREASED IN 14 YEARS AND THAT'S WHEN I DECIDED, YOU KNOW, IN MY OWN WAY I WOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> Crossley: SO LET'S PICK UP FROM THERE MIA.

WHEN DID YOU SEE A BOOK THAT INCLUDED SOMEBODY THAT LOOKED LIKE YOU AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHY THIS SPACE NEEDS TO INCLUDE THE STORIES THAT YOU ALL ARE TELLING?

>> SO I THINK I -- WHEN MY KIDS WERE BORN, AND YOUNG, MY OLDEST IS 22, I GOT A 19-YEAR-OLD, AND 17-YEAR-OLD, WHEN THEY WERE LITTLE I WAS ABLE TO FIND BOOKS WITH ASIAN CHARACTERS AND I THOUGHT OH THIS IS GREAT BECAUSE IT DIDN'T EXIST WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

AND I JUST THINK KIDS NEED TO SEE THEMSELVES REFLECTED IN A BOOK SO THEY DON'T FEEL MARGINALIZED.

I KNOW I COULDN'T EVEN ARTICULATE IT WHEN I WAS IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL BUT I ALWAYS FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW, MAYBE LIKE WHY IS IT LIKE I NEVER SEE ANYONE LIKE MYSELF IN THE MEDIA, YOU KNOW, I MUST NOT BE AS IMPORTANT AS WHITE PEOPLE.

>> Crossley: AND HOW OLD WERE YOU WHEN YOU FIRST SAW ONE?

>> I WAS A MOTHER.

SO I WAS LIKE IN MY 40s.

>> Crossley: YEAH YEAH.

>> AND IT'S NOT JUST FOR CHILDREN OF COLOR TO SEE THEMSELVES BUT IT'S THAT WHOLE WINDOWS, MIRRORS AND DOORS.

THE ONLY WAY TO TEACH EMPATHY IS FOR ALL OF US TO READ ABOUT OTHER EXPERIENCES.

SO IT'S JUST AS IMPORTANT FOR WHITE CHILDREN TO READ ABOUT DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES, THAT THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE ENCOUNTERED.

>> Crossley: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

PICK UP ON THAT JABARI, IF YOU WOULD.

>> YES, I THINK MIA HAS HIT ON SOMETHING.

IN MY MOST CYNICAL MOMENTS, THE RAILWAY TO DEFEND THESE BOOKS THAT ARE PUBLISHED BY US AND FOR US, IS TO DEMONSTRATE FOR WHITE PEOPLE WHAT IS IT FOR THEM, TO APPEAL TO THEIR CONSCIENCE AND TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE ALSO DENYING THEIR CHILDREN ACCESS TO EMPOWERING INFORMATION BY TAKING BOOKS AND FEATURE CHILDREN THAT LOOK LIKE WE DO OUT OF THEIR CHILDREN'S HAND.

>> Crossley: HOW OLD WERE YOU BEFORE YOU SAW SNMG A BOOK?

>> BETWEEN THE PUBLICATION EVER THAT BOOK AND THE SNOWY DAY IN THE 60s THERE'S PRETTY MUCH NOTHING ON THE CHILDREN'S BOOK REPERTOIRE THAT REFLECT CHILDREN THAT LOOK LIKE ME.

SO THERE WERE HUGE DECADES GAP.

>> Crossley: RAJANI.

>> WHEN I WAS A KID I NEVER SAW MYSELF REFLECTED IN BOOKS, WHEN I VISITED MY RELATIVES IN INDIA, WHEN MY CHILDREN WERE LITTLE, SO THEY'RE HALF INDIAN AND HALF WHITE, THEY NEVER SAW ANYBODY LIKE THEM IN BOOKS.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO READ ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY LIKE THEM.

LARGELY BECAUSE THEY USUALLY FIND OUT THAT WE ARE VERY MUCH THE SAME.

WE SHARE A LOT OF VALUES, AND A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE CARE ABOUT IN THE WORLD AND JUST BECAUSE WE LOOK DIFFERENT OR COME FROM A DIFFERENT BACKGROUND DOESN'T MAKE US THAT DIFFERENT.

>> Crossley: SO DENISE YOU GET MANY, MANY LITTLE CRITICS ACTUALLY IN YOUR PRESCHOOL.

SO WHAT'S THE RESPONSE AND I WANT YOU ALSO TO ANSWER THE QUESTION ABOUT WHEN IT WAS THAT YOU SAW YOURSELF, AND WHAT IT MEANS IN YOUR CLASSROOM.

>> SURE.

SO FOR ME, THE FIRST TIME I THINK I SAW SOMETHING SIMILAR TO ME WAS WHEN I READ THE EYES ARE WATCHING GOD AND THAT WAS VERY LATE IN MY EDUCATION.

I THINK WHEN WE LOOK AT STATISTICS WE KNOW THAT WHEN CHILDREN SEE THEMSELVES IN BOOKS THEY ENGAGE MORE.

IT IMPROVES LITERACY RATES, AND SO THERE ARE REAL REASONS WHY WE NEED TO SEE OURSELVES IN OUR BOOKS BECAUSE IT IMPROVES THEIR ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE.

THE WAY OUR KIDS -- OUR KIDS REACT WHEN WE READ A STORY, AND THE CHILDREN SEE THEMSELVES, THEY TELL YOU.

THEY'RE LIKE THAT'S ME.

WHEN WE READ JULIAN, THE STORY ABOUT JULIAN THE MERMAID, THERE WERE SO MANY BLACK BOYS IN THE CLASSROOM THAT GOT SO EXCITED, BECAUSE THAT'S THEM.

WHEN WE READ BOOKS LIKE SOUL FOOD SUNDAY, CHILDREN WHO WINSTON THE AUTHOR OF THAT BOOK, THAT IS WHAT WE DO ON SUNDAY, WE EAT TOGETHER WITH OUR SYSTEM.

SO THERE'S ANNAL EXCITEMENT YOU HEAR FROM CHILDREN WHEN THEY SEE THE ILLUSTRATIONS THAT LOOK LIKE THEM.

AND THE OTHER KIDS ALSO, WHO ARE NOT, THE KIDS WHO ARE NOT OF COLOR IN THE CLASSROOM THEY GET EXCITED TOO.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THEY'VE EXPERIENCED A DIFFERENT CULTURE.

THIS IS SOMETHING NEW FOR THEM SO FOR THEM THIS REALLY DOES HELP THEM UNDERSTAND THE CHILDREN WHO ARE DIFFERENT FROM THEM AND ALSO TO BE ABLE TO LIVE THEIR EXPERIENCE THROUGH STORIES.

>> Crossley: ALL RIGHT, SO NOW WE ARE IN A CLIMATE THAT IS DIVISIVE, IS THE CALMEST WORD I CAN SAY, AND A LOT OF ATTENTION HAS BEEN TURNED TO WHAT CHILDREN ARE READING.

I WOULD SAY YOUNG PEOPLE TO BROADEN THAT OUT, K-12.

AND AS IT TURNS OUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE LIST OF BOOKS THAT PARENTS WOULD LIKE TO SEE REMOVED FROM SHELVES OR ON THE OFFICIAL BANNED BOOK LIST, THERE ARE MANY OF THEM, AUTHORS OF COLOR OR BOOKS THAT HAVE THEMES DEALING WITH FROIRM CHARACTERS OFCHARACTERS -- PRIMARY CHARACTERS THAT HAVE PEOPLE OF COLOR OR LJTS.

TALK ABOUT THE DAMAGE BEING DONE -- LGBTQ, TALK ABOUT THE DAMAGE BEING DONE, AUTHORS OF COLOR?

>> IT ALWAYS COMES DOWN TO A QUESTION OF POWER.

THE DWINDLING MAJORITY WANTS TO HOLD ON TO THE POWER THAT HAS ENABLED THEM TO UNFAIRLY OPPRESS MINORITY POPULATIONS AND POWER AND AUTHORITY IS INEXTRICABLY LINKED.

TANTAMOUNT TO REMOVING THEM FROM ACCESS TO POWER AND THAT'S THE IMBALANCE IN POWER THAT HAS LONG CHARACTERIZED, THE UNITED STATES IS ABLE TO CONTINUE.

IT'S VERY -- IT'S MOTIVATED BY FEAR AND GREED.

FEAR OF MINORITY-MAJORITY POPULATION, AND GREED IN TERMS OF WE WANT TO HOLD ONTO THE EXCESS POWER, THE DISPROPORTIONATE POWER WE'VE POSSESSED ALL ALONG.

>> Crossley: RAJANI DO YOU AGREE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS ABOUT FEAR ON THE PART OF ADULTS.

IT IS NOT CHILDREN WHO ARE SCARED OF THESE BOOKS.

IT IS ADULTS WHO ARE SCARED OF FACING THE REALITIES OF THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN.

AND I AGREE WITH JABARI, IT'S 100% ABOUT POWER AND FEAR AND TRY TO INSTILL THAT POWER, AND TRY TO INSTILL IN CHILDREN BOOKS THAT ARE BEAUTIFUL AND REWARDING.

>> Crossley: MIA.

>> I WOULD SAY LIKE DAMAGE.

HOW SUCCESSFUL WERE PARENTS IN BANNINGBANNING ROCK 'N' ROLL AND ELVIS PRESLEY.

I HAD THE EXPERIENCE MYSELF LIKE WHEN MY DAUGHTER WAS 10 I SAID HEY COULD YOU JUST WAIT ONE OR TWO YEARS BEFORE READING HUNGER GAMES, IT'S A LITTLE VIOLENT.

I TOLD MY SORN IN SECOND GRADE YOUR READING LEVEL ISN'T QUITE PERCY JACKSON, COULD WE WAIT A YEAR OR TWO AND HANG OUT IN CHAPTER BOOKS?

BOTH OF THEM WENT BEHIND MY BACK, THEY BORROWED BOOKS FROM THEIR FRIENDS, AND THEY SAID, NO MOM, THIS IS PERFECTLY FINE, I GOT THE BOOK WITHOUT YOUR HELP, THANK YOU.

VERY MUCH.

MY DAUGHTER READ DYSTOPIAN BOOKS, OTHER AUTHORS FOR SIX YEARS, I MEAN THAT'S STILL A GENRE SHE READS.

SO WHEN YOU BAN A BOOK YOU RAISE AWARENESS.

YOU GIVE SPOTLIGHT TO IT.

IT BECOMES MORE POPULAR.

ALL OF US WHO -- AND IT'S THE MINORITY WHO ARE TRYING TO BAN THE BOOKS.

SO THE MAJORITY THEN, WE DO OUR BEST TO RAISE THOSE BOOKS UP, WE BUY THOSE BOOKS, WE GIVER THOSE THOSE -- GIVE THOSE BOOKS AWAY.

AND THEN JUST THE CHILDREN THEMSELVES, THEY'RE LIKE OH IF I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO READ IT, THAT'S THE BOOK I'M GOING TO GET MY HANDS ON.

AND ALSO BURNING BOOKS, REALLY?

YOU THINK THAT'S THE ONLY WAY KIDS GET BOOKS THROUGH A HARD COPY?

YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT WORKED LIKE 100 YEARS AGO OR 200 YEARS AGO BUT THERE'S LOTS OF DIFFERENT WAYS TO GET BOOKS AND THAT'S JUST KIND OF A SAD WAY TO GO ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF EFFECTIVENESS.

>> Crossley: I SHOULD ALSO POINT OUT YOU SENT 500 COPIES OF SUMO JOE TO TEXAS, WHERE A LOT OF THIS BANNING AND DISINFORMATION IS GOING ON, JUST TO BE SURE THAT KIDS HAD ACCESS TO YOUR BOOK.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY, YOU'LL SEE AUTHORS RISING TO THIS CHALLENGE WHEN WE SEE THIS HAPPENING, WE'RE JUST GOING TO GIVE AWAY MORE AND MORE BOOKS.

THAT'S WHAT MY NONPROFIT DOES.

>> Crossley: ALL RIGHT, DENISE.

>> I AGREE WITH OUR SPEAKERS HERE.

I THINK WHAT WE COMMUNICATE TO THE KIDS WHEN WE'RE BANNING CERTAIN BOOKS IS CERTAIN KIDS HISTORY, CERTAIN KIDS CULTURE AND EXPERIENCES ARE IMPORTANT.

AND OTHER KIDS ARE NOT.

AND THE KIDS GET THAT MESSAGE.

I ALSO AGREE WITH MIA, IS IF YOU WANT A CHILD TO READ A BOOK THE BEST WAY TO DO IT IS BAN IT.

I KNOW IN MY HOUSE IF I PUT A BOOK OUT AND SAY HEY I'M READING THAT, THAT'S THE FIRST BOOK MY CHILD'S GOING TO GRAB.

I CAN'T FIND IT ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE HOUSE.

YOU'RE ALSO SENDING A MESSAGE TO TEACHERS THAT WE DON'T TRUST YOUR JUDGMENT, EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE ON THE GROUND AND INTERACTING WITH THE KIDS AND YOU KNOW WHAT THE NEEDS ARE AND WHAT'S GOING ON IN THEIR LIVES WE DON'T TRUST TO YOU MAKE A GOOD DECISION ABOUT WHICH BOOKS THEY SHOULD BE READING.

AS TEACHERS AND EDUCATORS, WE ARE VERY COMPETENT, WE KNOW OUR KIDS, THEIR EXPERIENCE AND WE KNOW THEY LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH DIFFICULT SITUATIONS SOMETIMES BY READING ABOUT IT.

THEIR SOCIAL-EMOTIONAL DEVELOPMENT COMES THROUGH READING.

THEY READ ABOUT IT, THEY KNOW HOW TO INTERACT WITH DIFFERENT SITUATIONS.

>> I WOULD ADD THAT TEACHERS HAVE BEEN THROUGH UNPRECEDENTED TIMES WITH THE PANDEMIC.

AND TRYING TO TEACH IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, YOU SEE TEACHERS LEAVING IN DROVES.

YOU'RE GOING TO ADD THIS TO THE, YOU KNOW, LIST OF THINGS THAT TEACHERS ARE BEING HARASSED ABOUT?

YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MORE TEACHERS LEAVE.

SO THE MORE YOU DO THIS PRETTY SOON YOU'RE GOING TO FIND THAT YOUR SCHOOL DISTRICT OR YOUR SCHOOL IS GOING TO BE UNABLE TO HIRE AND RETAIN TEACHERS.

ESPECIALLY THE BEST TEACHERS.

SO IT'S JUST NOT LIKE A WINNING STRATEGY.

>> Crossley: JABARI, ARE YOU WORRIED THAT THIS COULD HAVE, EVEN THOUGH EVERYTHING THAT YOU ALL HAVE SAID ABOUT KIDS GOING FOR THE BANNED BOOK, SCOW END UP WITH A CHILLING EFFECT BACK AT THE SOURCE?

MEANING HERE YOU ALL ARE, AUTHORS OF COLOR WRITING THESE BOOKS BUT YOU CAN'T GET THEM PUBLISHED OR YOU CAN'T GET THE DISTRIBUTION THAT YOU WANT.

NOW, AS YOU'VE POINTED OUT THERE ARE, AS I SAID ACTUALLY LEADING INTO THIS SEGMENT, THERE IS MUCH MORE DIVERSE CONTENT AMONG CHILDREN'S MEDIA BUT NOT ALL OF IT IS PRODUCED BY AUTHORS OF COLOR.

THIS COULD HAVE A CHILLING IMPACT ON AUTHORS OF COLOR BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT AS I LOOK AT THE BANNED BOOKS WITH SOME EXCEPTION MOSTLY THEY ARE GOING AFTER YOU ALL, NOT GOING AFTER THE WRITERS WHO ARE WRITING ABOUT SIMILAR SUBJECT MATTER PERHAPS OR HAVING CHARACTERS THAT ARE KIDS OF COLOR BUT WHO ARE NOT -- BUT WHO ARE WHITE.

SO JABARI.

>> YES, I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK THERE ARE BOOKS, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT IS DEPICTIONS OF RACISM AND RACE HISTORY MAY MAKE WHITE STUDENTS UNCOMFORTABLE.

BUT GUILTY OF THIS MISDEMEANOR ARE BOOKS WRITTEN BY AUTHORS OF COLOR.

IF IT HAPPENS TO BE A WHITE AUTHOR THAT IS ADDRESSING SOME OF THESE SAME SUBJECTS IT IS SOMEHOW LESS OFFENSIVE.

BUT YOU POINT TO LARGER ISSUES.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WE HAVE PEOPLE ON THIS PANEL THAT ARE OPERATING NONPROFITS AND SELF PUBLISHING ET CETERA.

THIS WILL BE INCREASINGLY EXORNT EXORNT.

HAVING CAMPAIGNED FOR A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF EDITORS, REQUISITION EDITORS OF COLOR AND DECISION MAKING POSITION HE.

IN THE 20 YEARS I'VE BEEN PUBLISHING CHILDREN'S BOOKS, THAT NEEDLE HAS BARELY MOVED.

I POINT OUT THAT MY EARLY BOOKS, THREE CHILDREN'S BOOKS WERE PASSED ON BY EDITOR, AFTER WHITE EDITOR, AFTER WHITE EDITOR.

ALL WOMEN, WOMEN OF COLOR, BASICALLY E-BASICALLY ACCEPTED MY BOOK THAT WHITE EDITORS PASSED ON.

>> Crossley: DENISE.

>> WE ARE QUITE HAPPY WITH HOW THE INDUSTRY HAS ENGAGED, WE'VE HELD WORKSHOPS, WE'VE INVITED PUBLISHERS TO COME AND TALK TO US AND WE APPRECIATE HOW PROACTIVE MANY PUBLISHERS HAVE BEEN.

THERE'S A LOT OF WONDERFUL BOOKS THAT ARE IN THE MEHREEN BUT WE PROBABLY WON'T -- IN THE PIPELINE, IF YOU CAME TO US AND SAY I WANT TO ENGAGE YOUR COMMUNITY, I'M LOOKING FOR AUTHENTIC VOICES NOT ABOUT PEOPLE OUTSIDE THESE COMMUNITIES THEY ARE WRITING ABOUT.

WE APPRECIATE THAT.

BUT WHEN YOU READ A STORY YOU CAN TELL IF IT'S WRITTEN BY SOMEONE FROM THE COMMUNITY VERSUS SOMEONE OUTSIDE.

BECAUSE THERE'S AN THINGITY AUTHENTICITY THAT COMES THROUGH.

AND THERE MAY BE A PERSPECTIVE THAT PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT SO IT IS MUCH EASIER TO READ IT, IF YOU ARE FROM THE MAJORITY CULTURE, WRITTEN BY SOMEONE WHO'S NOT EXPERIENCING DISCRIMINATION, BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE AS HONEST AND HOW MUCH IT HURLTS.

SO I AGREE WITH JABARI, THAT IN THE PAST DEFINITELY, WE -- I'VE HAD STORIES THAT WERE PASSED BY, PASSED ON.

I HAD A PUBLISHER TELL ME THAT IF I CHANGED MY CHARACTER TO AN ANIMAL IT WOULD BE MORE MY BROWN CHILD, MY BROWN GIRL CHARACTER TO AN ANIMAL IT WOULD BE MORE UNIVERSAL.

THAT HURT.

AS AN EDUCATOR, AS A WRITER, AND I TOOK ABOUT A YEAR TO RECOVER FROM THAT AND I CAME BACK AND I'M NOT GOING TO BUDGE ON THAT.

MY BROWN STUDENTS ARE GOING TO SEE THEMSELVES IN BOOKS.

>> Crossley: RAJ ANY.

>>RAJANI.>> PUBLISHING IS NEVER EASY AS A PERSON OF COLOR.

BUT I DO BELIEVE LOOKING FOR AUTHENTIC DIVERSE VOICES, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING AWAY.

IT'S CERTAINLY NOT GOING AWAY IN THE WRITING COMMUNITY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF US WHO ARE TRYING TO GET OUR STORIES OUT THERE AND WE'RE ALL ENCOURAGING EACH OTHER.

AND I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING AWAY IN THE PUBLISHING COMMUNITY EITHER.

I THINK THAT MORE PUBLISHERS ARE LOOKING FOR DIVERSE VOICES.

NOW THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT ANYONE IS GOING TO HAVE AN EASY ROAD.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO AS READERS AND WRIRGS AND MEMBERS OF THE PUBLISHING WORLD IS TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER AND READ EACH OTHER'S BOOKS AND TALK ABOUT EACH OTHER'S BOOKS AND CONNECT WITH EDUCATORS AND PARENTS.

THAT'S WHAT I TRIES TO DO AS WELL.

BUT, YOU KNOW -- THAT'S WHAT I TRY TO DO AS WELL.

INTERESTING, BEING A PERSON OF COLOR NOT ALL OF OUR STORIES ARE ABOUT PAIN AND STRUGGLE.

>> Crossley: EXACTLY.

>> WE HAVE PLENTY OF STORIES ABOUT JOY AND LOVE AND CONNECTION AROUND THOSE STORIES ALSO NEED TO BE PUBLISHED AND THEY ARE.

AND SO I THINK THAT THAT'S ONE THING THAT WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT, AS CREATORS OF COLOR, IS JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE DON'T TELL US WHAT STORIES WE SHOULD WRITE.

WE CAN WRITE ALL KINDS OF STORIES AND WE ARE.

>> Crossley: I HAVE TO UNDERSCORE THAT BECAUSE I THINK THE ASSUMPTION IS IF IT'S WRITTEN BY ONE OF YOU, YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE, WHICH IS WHAT IT SAYS IN SOME OF THIS LEGISLATION, SOME OF THIS BANNING, YOU'RE ABOUT TO MAKE PEOPLE UNCOMFORTABLE AND THEY DON'T WANT TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE.

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT ABOUT.

NOBODY KNOWS THAT ONE OF MY FAVORITE BOOKS IS WHOSE KNEES ARE THESE.

IT'S ABOUT A LITTLE BABY AND HIS KNEES AND THAT'S IT.

I THINK THERE IS MUCH MORE ROOM TO GET THAT OUT AND NOT BE REALLY SORT OF -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE WORD IS -- PUT IN A BOX ABOUT WHAT KIND OF MATERIAL EACH OF YOU ARE WRITING AND PRODUCING.

MIA.

>> I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, PUBLISH BEING IS A BUSINESS.

IT'S ALL ABOUT DOLLARS AND CENTS, FIGURING THE TREND AND MAKING MONEY OFF THAT TREND.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE GOING TO PUBLISH THE BOOKS THAT MAKE THE MOST MONEY.

SO IF WE CAN SHOW AND PROVE THAT, YOU KNOW, MINORITY PERSPECTIVES CAN BE BEST SELLERS, CAN WIN MAJOR AWARDS, LIKE RAJANI'S BOOK WAS A NEWBURY HONOR AWARD.

THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE MORE OF THEM.

BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF EDITORS DON'T PUBLISH BOOKS THAT MAKE MONEY THEY LOSE THEIR JOBS.

>> Crossley: IS THERE ANYTHING TO BE SAID, YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, MIA, THAT BANNING HAS INCREASED INTEREST IN SOME BOOKS AND IN FACT IT'S DRIVEN UP SALES OF SOME BOOKS.

IS THERE ANYTHING POSITIVE TO BE SAID ABOUT THAT PHENOMENON DENISE?

>> YES.

SALES INCREASE BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOW CURIOUS.

IT IS AN EMOTIONAL TOLL ON THE WRITER AND THE CREATOR.

THIS IS SOMETHING THEY HAVE POURED THEIR HEART INTO AND YOU'RE TELLING THEM THAT THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WORTH READING.

SO WE DON'T WANT TO DISCOURAGE OUR WRITERS AND OUR ILLUSTRATORS AND WRITERS.

BUT WHEN YOU ARE SAYING IS THERE PROOF THAT THERE ARE BOOKS THAT ARE WRITTEN AND CREATED BY PEOPLE OF COLOR THAT ARE SELLING WELL, SOUL FOOD SUNDAY YOU CAN'T FIND THIS IN BARNES AND NOBLE.

THIS WAS RELEASED NOVEMBER 16th.

IT'S GONE -- IT'S BEEN REPRINTED A COUPLE TIMES.

YOU CAN'T FIND SOUL FOOD SUNDAY IF YOU TRY RIGHT NOW AND THEY'RE TRYING TO REPRINT THE BOOK AGAIN.

SO THAT, SITUATIONS OR INSTANCES LIKE THAT SHOWS YOU WHEN THOSE BOOKS ARE WRITTEN, THEY SELL.

BLACK PANTHER TELLS WHEN YOU THOSE STORIES ARE TOLD, THEY SELL VERY WELL.

AND WE'RE SEEING THAT WITH ENCANTO THEY DO VERY WELL.

SO IF THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY WANTS TO REPEAT WHAT HOLLYWOOD HAS EXPERIENCED PLEASE COME SEE US AT BLACK CREATORS AND LATIN X PITCH.

>> Crossley: YOU HAVE 30 SECONDS, JABARI.

>> THE INDUSTRIAL CONTINUES, THE EARLY GENERATION HAD SET BACKS.

IT'S SOMEWHAT CYCLICAL, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE THE STRUGGLE HAS CONTINUED, THOSE OF US HERE TO CREATE WILL CONTINUE TO CREATE.

>> Crossley: OKAY, GREAT PLACE TO END.

THAT'S THE END OF OUR BROADCAST AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND NOW STAY WITH US AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS, FACEBOOK AND YOUTUBE.

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