- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, we're talking legacy and impact while breaking down a clip from the Breakfast Club that's got a lot of people talking.

And we're looking ahead at season 40 of Black Issues Forum where we've kept Black voices front and center for nearly four decades.

It'll be raw, it'll be real, and it'll be a conversation you do not want to miss.

Coming up next, stay with us.

[upbeat music] - [Announcer] Quality Public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.

[upbeat music] - Welcome to Black Issues Forum.

I'm your host Kenia Thompson.

This week we are pulling back the curtain, having some fun and keeping it all the way real.

We're going to look back at this season's bold conversations.

We're gonna look ahead to season 40, and we've even got a clip to unpack from the Breakfast Club.

I'm joined today by a woman whose shoulders I have stood on throughout my time here at Black Issues Forum.

Someone who has not only shaped this show with grace, brilliance, and vision, but who continues to challenge how we tell stories and how we show up for our communities.

She's also one of my favorite people to talk to, and I love to unpack hot topics with her.

Welcome to the show, executive producer, Deborah Holt.

- Thank you.

I am so excited to be here and just chat it up with you.

- I know it's so, we hadn't done this often, but it's always fun.

- Yeah.

- To have you here to talk.

And well, first off, how are you doing?

- I'm doing good, I'm doing well, yes.

- I asked that question because this week, I was, I saw a clip and I thought this would be a great clip for us to watch and discuss because it kind of checks into self.

And I think we do that a lot between the two of us, right?

We check in.

And so I wanna play this clip from The Breakfast Club, and then we'll talk about it.

- Let's take a look.

- What does hidden depression look like?

- Ooh, so Hidden Depression is not like the typical depression.

When people think of depression, they think of someone crying, not getting outta bed, but Hidden Depression hides behind a mask of pathologically, being pathologically productive.

So imagine, you know, a single mom working to take care of her kids, working out her job, and she cannot slow down.

People depend on her.

So what does she do?

She shows up to work with a smile on her face.

She's showing up for others, but she feels no joy.

And it's something called anhedonia.

It's a scientific term that I study in my lab.

People don't even know it exists.

So, hidden depression doesn't necessarily look sad, but it doesn't feel joy.

And as human beings, our birthright is joy.

Like joy is literally built into our DNA and if we can't access that joy, that's a problem.

So just because someone's not getting out, not, you know, in bed and crying all day, doesn't mean that it's not a problem.

We have to address this lack of joy.

- What are the signs of hidden depression and high functioning depression?

- Yeah, so many people confuse high function depression with burnout.

The difference is that, you know, for burnout, let's say you go to a party and you say, "I'm burnt out."

People are like, "Oh, me too, me three," right?

But if you walk into a party and you say, I'm depressed, people are like, oh.

Burnout by definition is a occupational hazard.

When the WHO, the World Health Organization classified it, it's the workplace causing the symptoms.

So technically you take the person outta the workplace, they should get better.

With high functioning folks, even when you take them outta the workplace, they're not better.

What are they doing?

They're busying themselves on a side hustle or two.

They're taking on somebody's problems.

They can't sit still.

They're cleaning out their house or their garage, right?

Because it's not the workplace, it's not something on the outside, it's something inside that's unresolved.

So this hidden trauma, this unresolved pain.

So they're trying to outrun it by busying themselves.

So when they sit still, they feel empty.

- When they're not working, they feel restless.

- Girl.

I see your face, right?

- Oh, right.

- And that was the same reaction.

- I'm checking myself, - I know.

- and I'm checking the people in my environment and in my life, and I'm seeing some of this, - Yeah.

- and it's very revealing.

- So what was your first...

I mean, so your first gut reaction is, "oh God, that's me."

That was me, too.

[interviewee laughing] That's why I was like, all right, we could talk about this, because I think far too often, we busy our lives.

Well, I'll speak for myself, and I use it as a distraction.

- Yeah, it's easy to use all of these things that I have to do as a cover, and there are times when I do it, there are times when I see younger people doing it.

Young people, I'm talking about teenagers who don't need to be stressed out, and also, family members, church members, and in a way, it's reflected also in the need to always self-improve, the need to not only self-improve or improve somebody else or improve my house, so I'm going to get another degree.

I'm gonna go and take the kids here, and after I finish that, now, I'm gonna go and study this lesson.

I'm gonna do a cooking lesson.

I'm gonna learn how to sing.

- It's like imposter syndrome.

- It is, because it's the root feeling that you're not good enough, you haven't got enough, so let me go get some more, and it reminds me also of something that is really popular in our community, which is, look, gotta laugh to keep from crying.

[laughs] - I know, so it's masking constantly.

One thing that resonated with me was that joy is our birthright, and that hit me hard, because I don't know that we, well, again, I will speak for myself, I feel guilty by saying I feel good.

I feel guilty by saying, "oh, it's a great day."

I don't know why.

It's almost like, "How are you doing?"

"Oh, I'm okay."

- Yeah, and you can even sense that from other people, and the reality is, when people ask you how you're doing, and once again, I'll speak for myself as well, do you really wanna know how I'm doing?

- Because if I tell you how I'm really doing, are you prepared for that?

- No, you don't wanna know.

What we need right now is to get to the next moment.

I need to go to the elevator.

I'm doing great.

I'll see you later.

You know, whether you're doing great or not, but it also kind of has to do with the need to help others feel good and the need to help them feel better about things.

- But that's cyclical.

- And sometimes, yeah, that's also kind of satisfying, and what she's saying is, you need to kinda look through that as well.

- I went through the comments of that clip, and I found a comment that I thought was pretty interesting I wanted to get your feedback on.

This person said "That's because the hidden depression, we have hidden depression, we can't find our joy.

That's because we are living lives we were not designed to live by nature."

- By nature?

- By nature.

- What does that mean?

- What does that mean?

[interviewee chuckling] - I think that we're all on a journey, and so many people say this, it's an evolution, and no, you may not know exactly where your joy is coming from right now today, but it is your responsibility to recognize that I'm not fulfilled and to go and search it out and question things, and I'll admit that I do those things.

You know, I have a great job, at least from the viewpoint of everyone who watches the great joy that I experience and exude.

It's work, though.

I mean, that's honest is that it's work, and I find myself finding the joy in what I do, or else, it's gonna kill me.

- Yeah.

Well, and I think, I think I can speak for you in saying that it's connected to purpose.

Storytelling for me is connected to purpose.

And I think it's the same for you, which is why we connect so well.

And I think for viewers that don't know, which I don't know how you don't know, but as the host of "NC Weekend", "North Carolina Weekend", you get to hear so many stories.

- I do.

And that's very, I've had to find the joy in that.

So, it's not necessarily going to some new place, but I have intentionally looked at where I am when I am in that place.

- Mm-hmm [affirmative].

- Who am I talking to?

And I really wanna know what your story is.

- [Interviewer] Yeah.

- And it's rewarding to me, because I'm learning something and it's exposing me to a different perspective.

And that is joyful.

- [Interviewer] Yeah.

- And but I do understand what it means to kind of cover up as well.

- [Interviewer] Yeah.

- And that's when I had that, "Oops, is that me moment?

Am I covering up or am I really feeling the joy?"

- And not to belabor on this point, 'cause I am going to move on, but I think in our line of work, we're expected to have a face on all the time.

- Yeah.

- We're expected to smile all the time to walk in as the personality.

And that, in itself, can be extremely taxing.

- Absolutely, it takes energy to put on that face.

And then you question, "Am I being real?"

- [Interviewer] Yeah.

- Especially when others say, "Is that who you are?"

But do I wanna drag around here?

In my house, I'm not like bing, bing, bing, bing, bing all the time.

[Interviewer laughs] [Deborah Holt Noel laughs] But I am that way with my daughter.

We do voices and characters all day.

- Yeah.

- And I've asked myself, "Why do you speak in a character with your own daughter?"

[Deborah Holt Noel laughs] We kind of go into a little character before we have conversations.

- Mm-hmm [affirmative].

- Because it makes, for me, things fun.

And I think that's part of my personality.

I love stories.

- [Interviewer] Yeah.

- I love playing and so, I do that in my life.

But I do have those moments where it's like "Hmm, this is sad and it's okay to cry."

- [Interviewer] It is okay.

- And I do that.

- I'm learning that now at my age that it's okay to cry.

- I'll have a cry.

- I know.

- It's okay.

- Well, I'm not speaking of crying, but speaking of joy, over these years, you have been such an OG in this "Black Issues Forum" evolution, right?

So, we are at season 39.

We've got about two episodes left in this season.

And how do you feel at season 39, seeing how far we've come or how far you've come?

- It almost goes back to the first segment.

- [Interviewer] Mm-hmm [affirmative].

- I look over the career with "Black Issues Forum" and in some ways, I feel like, "Oh man, I could have done this, I could have done that, I should have done this, I should have done that."

But then I have to remind myself, and you've said this to me before, "You've accomplished a lot," so, I think about the time that we turned the studio into a runway and had a fashion show.

I took boxing lessons in one episode.

We've had Nnenna Freelon in here performing.

We've had Al Strong performing and we've told stories.

And people come to me, sometimes, I'll run into them at the grocery store, on the streets and they'll say, "Thank you so much for what you're doing and what you've done.

I watch your show and I've learned so much."

- Yeah.

- That really, really touches me and it reaffirms you're doing something that matters, that's of quality.

And I hope that Dr. Van der Grift, who founded this show, would be proud.

He's no longer with us, but trying to do him justice too.

- Yeah.

I mean, I'll say coming on to this series, it felt like big shoes to fill, right?

Because anytime you mention "Black Issues Forum", it's Deborah Holt Noel, right?

For these last couple of, what, decades?

20, how long were you?

- Decades, yes.

- 25 years, and she doesn't look like it.

[both chuckling] - Oh, oh, I don't have any shame.

I started in 1999.

- [Kenia] Wow, wow.

- So it has been decades.

- It has been decades.

And it's amazing how you are still that image that resonates with folks, which is not a problem.

Because I think that that speaks wonders to the work that you've done in community and how people view you.

And so when you look at the mission of this show, has it evolved?

And if it has, how has it evolved and are we sticking to it?

- I believe that the show has evolved.

And for me, the turning point was when Trayvon Martin was killed.

And there was just so much sadness.

And there was week after week talking about the disparities and the problems and the issues.

And I determined at that time, we need to talk about what we are doing as a community.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- We need to talk about our accomplishments.

We need to talk about our joys.

We need to talk about us as people living this life.

And yeah, we have problems too.

- Yeah.

- But we also have joys.

We have ways of doing things, and let's just share those stories.

That's us.

So that was a turning point for me.

And in that way, I do believe that the program has evolved.

- Yeah.

And I wanna share a clip.

I want us both to share clips of some of our favorite conversations this past season.

And I think part of the evolution is demonstrated in this next clip of Marcel Anderson, which is a very recent show that we had a couple weeks ago where he shares a vulnerability.

So I wanna share that clip of Marcel.

- Over 10 years ago, I was held in a home invasion where I was held at gunpoint, blindfolded, and handcuffed.

Where the robber told me, if I did everything he told me to do, I may live.

So psychologically processing that and didn't know if I was gonna make it out alive.

- Yeah.

- But did so much internal damage that I lived with a colostomy bag for over four months.

I was in Duke Hospital for over a month.

I went through a eight hour surgery where I woke up, didn't realize that I was gonna go through all of this.

And I always commend Duke for saving my life.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- I didn't live with that colostomy for the rest of my life, for only four months.

It was reversed and I was grateful for that.

So just as a male sexual assault survivor, I went through a lot, but I survived.

And I'm here today to share my story.

- Yeah.

That conversation, after that conversation, I received multiple messages saying thank you from Black men who I didn't even know had experienced sexual trauma.

And I think that this platform has allowed us to have safe conversation around issues like that, that plague more than we know.

And that's why I love doing this work.

That was a hard conversation.

- It was.

- But much needed.

- And I'm grateful that you have just the rapport with guests and the empathy and the professionalism to be able to have the conversations.

This was tough.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- And I wondered how we could share that on this platform.

First of all, he was willing to share the story.

- [Kenia] Yeah, it starts there.

- But then you were receptive.

And once again, this is a place where people, Black men in particular, and men, anyone, can see this guest's vulnerability, what happened to him.

And it creates a connection.

- [Kenia] Yeah.

- That's really the point, in my opinion, of this program, is connection.

Connection between the guests that we have and our audience, and also between the guests that we have, because that really excites me when we, in the same episode, we brought on a professional- - Jason Phillips.

Jason Phillips, who is a lot of fun.

- Yes.

- But he's a professional, and the two of them are like, "Oh, wait a minute, I can come to your event, and you can come to my event, and I can help you."

- That's what the community is about.

- It's all about community.

- Yeah.

I love that so much.

When you look back at this season, 39, what has been your favorite episode?

- Well, I'll tell you, one of my favorite episodes is when you went to Asheville following Hurricane Helene.

And it was just beautifully done, documentary style, and I loved seeing us helping us, us meaning Black people helping Black people.

But also, what was revealed was the diverse collection of people in Asheville helping one another.

- Yeah, well, I have that clip ready for us to share so viewers can see a little bit of that story if you hadn't seen it.

- What I've saw over the last two weeks with the hurricane is good and bad.

Bad, houses damaged.

People missing their loved ones, some finding them dead.

Without power for weeks, food, water.

The good is brotherly love.

I've saw people showing love that I've never saw before in this county.

Me, I love my community.

I've been loving on my community before the hurricane came, because for me, to help someone is the true love of Jesus.

- Absolutely.

And that love was reflected not only in this episode, but I had an opportunity to return to Asheville for another event, the Rotating Chef had his debut, and the people who were in the audience were of every race, every age, various communities, and I think that might be a reflection of Asheville, and I'm so glad that we were able to show that suffering is not exclusive to Black communities.

- [Kenia] Nope.

- And we want to go out and help, and we do go out and help ourselves, and we help other communities, and they help us.

- They help us.

- And it's about community and love.

- I think that was, and I still get goosebumps going back to my time there, because that was what resonated the most with me.

Everyone I met, it was a hug, it was an "I love you."

I mean, I don't even think I wore that much makeup, because I kept crying, right?

[Deborah chuckles] It was like, "You can't look pretty for the camera right now."

- [Deborah] Right.

- And, you know, I'm an emotional person, so I'ma cry.

- Yeah, you do cry at the drop of a hat.

- Well, thanks, Deb.

[Deborah laughs] - [Deborah] I think it's cute!

- But I couldn't help it!

Because when you see... Because what society has told us over and over again is that there's division, right?

- Yes.

- That the Blacks are over here, the whites are over there, the Hispanics are over there.

But it did not matter.

- [Deborah] It melts away.

- It melts away.

And that was the beauty of it.

And I just loved that time there so much.

- I did, too.

And you did a wonderful job, and I'm so glad that you took the time to go and capture that story.

- Yeah, I'm grateful I had the opportunity to, as devastating as it was and still is, right?

- They're still building, and we're still covering it, so.

- What would you say is the type of content our viewers want or need most right now?

- Oh, gosh.

Right now is key.

And for me, it's about information, factual, unbiased information, and also just the opportunity to talk about real things.

Secondly.

And third, the joy.

The joy of seeing each other, being reflected back to yourself and learning about each other.

I think that our audience appreciates that.

- I hope they do.

I hope they do.

I mean, I love it when people give feedback and typically the feedback's positive.

So it's okay if you have negative feedback too 'cause that's how we grow, right?

- Exactly.

- That's how we grow.

- Exactly.

- But it feels like people are resonating a lot with the content that we're putting out there.

And you know, and I think as we've come through season 39 and we're coming to the end of that, and we're going to be coming into season 40, our anniversary season, I think this is gonna be a great opportunity for us to really lean on our storytelling skill sets.

- Yes.

- What do you think should be priority in season 40?

- Hmm I would love to make a priority getting out into communities.

Seeing who they are, hearing their stories, and you know, sharing that back.

I think it's especially important to share stories of progress.

I don't think it matters so much where you start, because I've heard the criticism, ah, a story's not valuable unless you started from rock bottom.

No.

Wherever you are, what change are you making?

How are you improving your community?

How are you improving yourself?

How are you creating a message that others can carry with them?

- Even if it's just one person at a time.

- Exactly.

- That's why I always say, if I can impact one person, then I've done my job.

- We have to remind ourselves of that.

Because it's about the millions of clicks and the millions of likes and things like that.

But really there can be one person.

There's a woman who watches the show and she calls and leaves a message periodically.

She's like, oh, Debra, oh, Noel, I love your show.

Thank you for what you're doing.

And I tell you, she is touched by this show.

And I appreciate that.

And she just wants to let me know.

So that's one person I know who's affected by the show.

- Well, we just have a few minutes left and I wanted to reserve some time for some fun questions.

- Rut row.

- All right.

It's gonna be like a lightning round, okay?

- Uh oh, okay.

- All right.

So if you could have a biopic made, who would play you?

- Halle Berry, of course.

- Oh, not Halle Berry.

Did you see her outfit?

- Go with the top.

- Oh.

Oh.

All right.

Let me roll that back.

You know who I love, Gabrielle Union, but she doesn't look like me, so maybe Sanaa Lathan - Okay, I could see that.

I could see that.

All right.

What's a snack that you have to have while editing?

- This is supposed to be lightning round, isn't it?

I'm thinking about ice cream.

I'm thinking about M&M's.

I'm thinking about chips, grapes.

- Now ice creams gonna melt while you're editing.

- I know.

I do do grapes and almonds while I'm editing.

- That's healthy.

- Grapes and almonds.

- What about an unhealthy snack?

- An unhealthy snack?

Nachos.

Chocolates.

- Chocolates.

- If you could interview any ancestor on the show, who would it be and why?

- Living or?

- Not living, past ancestor.

- Oh my goodness.

If I could interview my grandmother.

I never met her.

- Oh, you didn't?

On your mom's side or dad's side?

- My dad's side.

Everybody says I'm like her.

And I think she was wise.

I mean, she risked her son's life to try to make sure that he had a better life.

I'd love to interview her.

- Well, maybe you embody her, maybe you already know her.

If people are reminded of her through you, right?

- It's possible.

Yeah.

- And I think that that's super important to be in touch with the legacy that we already have inside, right?

- Mhm.

- What's a trend that you wish would go away immediately?

[Kenia laughs] - Like.

- Like?

- Saying, "Like."

- Yeah, or pause words?

- And, "Bruh."

[laughs] Yeah, I'd like brah to go away.

- [Kenia] It should.

- And, no more important.

I want the saggy pants- - The saggy pants?

- To completely go away.

- Yeah, it's gotten better.

Well, they're tight and saggy now.

- Now I'm gonna sound old.

Bye to the saggy pants.

[Kenia laughs] I liked Kendrick Lamar's pants on the Super Bowl.

- You know, people made a lot of fun of those pants.

- What?

He was wearing women jeans, wasn't he?

- Yeah, they were like bell bottoms.

- He looked good in the women jeans.

- Well, anyway.

- Go Kendrick.

- What would the title of your memoir be?

Last question.

- Hmm.

A Graceful Soul?

- Oh, I love that.

I love that.

Well, we've only got like 30 seconds left, but I am so grateful for you.

I'm so grateful for trusting me with this show.

And I hope that I've done it justice.

I hope that our viewers find the evolution appropriate and I hope they also know that you are still a very big, integral part of what we do here.

So, thank you.

- And I thank you, Kenia.

You're beautiful and your heart is great, and you've given back to me as well, and I thank you.

- Don't make me cry now.

- You've done a beautiful job with this show.

- Thank you.

I appreciate it.

- My trust was well placed.

- We'll chat later.

- Thanks.

- You bet.

- And I thank you for watching.

If you want more content like this, we invite you to engage with us on Instagram using the #BlackIssuesForum.

You can also find our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum and on the PBS video app.

I'm Kenia Thompson.

I'll see you next time.

[empowering music] [empowering music continues] [empowering music continues] - [Announcer] Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join them in supporting PBS NC.