- Just ahead on Black Issues Forum, a decision on redistricting maps satisfies some but not everyone's happy, what it takes to run for public office, and a video showing police racial violence goes viral.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ - Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

This week, decisions on the state's redistricting maps were handed down and now the way is clear for any candidate wishing to run for office in the upcoming May primary.

They have until March 4th to file.

On Thursday, a North Carolina trial court issued an order approving the North Carolina House, Senate, and congressional maps.

And the North Carolina Supreme Court denied all appeals to the trial court's order.

The head of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee tweeted, "10 years ago, Republicans in North Carolina and Pennsylvania drew gerrymandered maps that locked themselves into power.

They tried again, but they were ready, we were ready.

Now the voters in North Carolina and Pennsylvania have fair congressional maps where the they get to decide the outcome of the elections.

It's a big day."

But in a press statement, Republican House Speaker Tim Moore said, "Today's ruling is nothing short of egregious."

Currently, Republicans hold eight of the state's 13 US House seats and will gain a 14th seat, now that the census has been counted.

Let's check in with this week's panel to get their take.

I'd like to welcome House Democratic Leader Robert Reives of District 54, Chatham and Durham counties, Senator Natalie Murdock of District 20, Durham, and La'Meshia Whittington of Advanced Carolina.

So pleased to have all three of you here.

Representative Reives, You wrote an editorial about district maps that appeared in the chat of News Record this week.

Can you summarize where we are with all three maps and your thoughts about the balance of political power?

- Well, and I appreciate that and I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

With the maps, you had three sets of maps that were going up.

You had congressional maps, State Senate maps, State House maps.

The State House maps, after the court ruled that they were a partisan gerrymander, came back and all three of them, we had a chance to try to negotiate.

We were able to successfully negotiate maps for the State House, The State Senate was not able to successfully negotiate a set of maps.

And so therefore those votes were on partisan lines, just as the congressional maps, which did not seem to have any inputs from Democrats.

- So how do you think that leaves us with regard to a balance of party power right now?

- Well, right now there's still an inordinate shift towards Republicans when it really comes down to it.

The State House maps, I feel are much fairer than what we had.

There's no issues about that.

The State Senate maps, unfortunately, I don't think they're much different than the ones that were ruled unfair partisan gerrymandering in the first place.

And I was a little surprised that those held up.

The congressional maps are obviously better than the temporal maps we were presented with.

They still present challenges, but at least they do present opportunities in a couple of more districts that we didn't have.

- And there had to be some collaboration or at least some cooperation in getting that first map done.

Talk about your role in that.

- Well, it was really just sitting down and negotiating.

We went for two straight weeks, where I, my chief of staff, and the house leadership met each day, as many of you know, that had kept up with it.

We kept ours in an open room so people could come in and comment or do whatever it is that they wanted to do.

But it was a lot of negotiation that lasted really up until, not only the day, but the hour that we presented the maps and put those up for a vote.

But in fairness, I think the House Republican leadership was really invested in getting a decision that we could live with and with a bipartisan vote.

And I appreciated that and that helped us get it.

And I appreciate the support of our caucus, the Democratic caucus, 'cause we didn't know what we needed to do.

Some people initially thought maybe we should wait on the courts.

Some thought we maybe should negotiate and see what we could get.

And the good thing is that everybody was in support of trying to work out a deal that was best thing for North Carolinians.

- Thank you, Senator Murdock, what are your thoughts on the redistricting maps as they stand right now and how all of this has impacted delays for filing?

- Yes, as Leader Reives mentioned, first and foremost, hats off to him, I am sad to lose him in the Durham Delegation, but had have had the honor of working with him these last few years and as he mentioned in the House, they were successful in negotiating.

They really came to the table.

Unfortunately, in the Senate that never happened.

We did propose some alternatives that we thought were more fair and quite frankly, more reflective of the people in North Carolina.

More diversity that would bring more fairness to these maps so that both sides have a chance.

These maps should be competitive.

You should be able to be challenged of getting your voters out, getting that message out.

The issue of gerrymandering is it makes it pretty much impossible.

And in the Senate it will be difficult.

We still will be fighting on my side to bring at least 22 senators back, but we did not get maps that are fair and reflective of the diversity of our great state.

We were hoping that the State Supreme Court would intervene.

Unfortunately, they did not, filing has opened.

So we're gonna fight, we're gonna fight until November.

- Thank you, LA, what is your impression on where we are as the maps stand right now?

How close are we to having that representative electorate?

- So, to echo the previous statements and comments that have been made in the leadership of Representative Reives and Senator Murdock, it's really plain and simple.

Just because it's partisan fair, doesn't mean it's racially fair.

Oftentimes there's this assumption that our black communities are monolithic.

And even though we know there's a close alignment between political party affiliation and race, as data denotes very clearly, when we talk about gerrymandering or redistricting, they're actually really specific rules.

When you're drawing maps in the general assembly as the elected leaders, they have to conduct what is called, racially polarized voting analysis.

And being able to look at the black and brown population.

How many of us live in a district?

And to make sure that we are drawn in a way that amplifies our voting power, if we're not the majority in that district, but we still deserve representation.

That analysis really wasn't conducted in the construction of these maps, when we talk about the congressional maps that Representative Reives, our reason was knocked down the first time and then even the second time.

Guess what, it was because of this lack of analysis.

And so when we talk about the powers that be, many of us as advocates have supported what Representative Reives elevated in your recent, thank you, op-ed, about an independent redistricting commission or an independent structure because how can you trust a body of leaders that have already proven time and time again that they're willing to gerrymander our communities in a really clear way?

How can we expect them to rectify what they've done?

It's almost policing themselves and it really hasn't been statistically proven to be successful.

And so again, partisan doesn't mean racially fair.

- Great point, Representative Reives, talk a little bit more about your support or your interest in having a neutral body to draw these lines.

Who would that be?

- Well, and just as LA said, it's really funny.

There's no other area in any government, in any law, where we have the people who are being policed, police themselves.

And I thought that was a great analogy that she used there.

Because what you're doing is this, you're making the person who's trying to draw these maps, do two things that are against human nature.

Number one, you're having to tell them that you should do what's best for the other people, not what's best for you.

And of course, a lot of people that run for office, they think, well, the best thing for my district is for me to stay there, instead of thinking of what fairly represents the district.

And then beyond that, if you can get that person to go beyond their own human interest, now you're asking them to trust in our House, 119 other people, to do the same thing.

And the problem is, is that you really get lulled into where you gotta play by the rules that are presented, an independent commission doesn't cause this problem.

Detractors of independent commissions will initially say, well, everybody's political.

And the truth is I think all of us on this panel know, that's a small bubble that lives their lives for the political gain.

Most people want to see what's best for their communities.

I think if you go talk to the woman on the street, the first thing that you'll notice is, there are only a few people who actually know who their representatives are, that type of thing.

So why not get an independent commission?

The only argument for gerrymandering is if you're in power to say, well, everybody before me got to do it, I ought to get to do it.

And that's not a good argument.

- Well couldn't you have... - The truth is, with what we have, we should be able to do it.

Yes, ma'am.

- Let me get Senator Murdock in here.

We got about 60 seconds for this block, but, couldn't we just have enough rules that it doesn't matter who is making the decisions, as long as you're following the rules, everything is clean.

- Absolutely, I think there definitely is a way and we have so many models nationwide where folks have gotten in right, they're doing a better job as the other panelists mentioned.

It is quite frankly impossible for us to do this.

I do not want to do it.

I want us to figure out a way to do it fairly.

We can do that.

I think an independent redistricting commission is the way to go.

You cannot have those that are so deeply invested in the results of these maps to be the ones drawing those maps.

but unfortunately, the reality is we are stuck with this system right now.

I do not have confidence in current leadership to change our system.

The only way to do that is to elect new leaders.

- Well, we're gonna be talking about representation.

And I wanna talk about political representation because when it comes to black voters, we hear time and again the importance of getting more African Americans to hold these political seats.

Before that can happen, they have to run for office.

I'd like to bring in Michael Stewart-Isaacs, co-founder of I Am Brilliant, political and social justice think tank.

Michael, thank you so much for being here.

- Thank you.

- Let me just ask you, when it comes to representation, how do you believe the community feels in terms of being represented, and about the possibility of actually running for office in order to fill some of these seats?

- Well, again, thank you Deborah for havin' me here and thank you, I'm happy to be here during the Black History Month.

Particularly when you look at the representation of our communities, as well as for our young people, a lot of times there's a cultural shift goin' on, obviously, and young people do not sometimes see themselves in the political place because sometimes we as a society tend to keep young people in their consistent state of being a kid and a child.

And what young people nowadays, because they're informed with information, they're trying to find direction.

And I think as we look at political leaders, such as Senator Murdock and some of the others that are younger that are showing people a new way, I think that people are hopeful that there's opportunities for great leadership, and they believe they are ready to step up.

They just don't quite understand the process, and they're still at the point where they don't understand how voting, as well as participating, actually affects them in their day to day life.

So I think there's a disconnect that we have to address and bridge the gaps of understanding.

- Definitely a need to educate folks, even in the elementary, high school level.

There's just not enough information about how our political system works.

And, Senator Murdock, you're a great leader, an example for young people in that you've run.

Can you share a little bit about what it takes to run for office?

- Yes, it takes a lot to run and I'm actually going to take a phrase from my colleague in the Senate, Senator Woodard; you need to have the three Fs, you need to have faith, family and finances.

You need to consult with your family.

They will have to be with you on this journey.

You cannot do it alone.

Finances.

The other guest's point about being young.

It is hard to do.

In the general assembly we make $13,900 a year, if I was not a consultant and had my own business and another way to make money and have a flexible schedule I couldn't do it.

And faith, you really have to know your why.

You have to know why you're running.

It is very hard.

It'll be very difficult.

It will be very taxing and challenging, and so you have to be doin' it for the right reasons.

That is what makes you get up every day and join this battle as we continue to fight for our state.

And also the will to do it.

You have to be focused on your race and why you're running and just jump out there and do it.

- Representative Reives.

I think a lot of people might be okay with faith and friends, but when it comes to the finance, that's where they say "I'm out."

I mean, and then it's not fair because then the people who are representing us just so happen to be people who have wealth.

What does it take?

- That's correct.

- How do you get around that, or do you?

- Well, what you have to do is, then that's when you have to depend on the system, and that's why your why is so important.

Figure out what you're running for and why you're running for it.

And then I think the finances will come because you can then try to figure it out from the system.

Barack Obama was able to be one of the most successful presidential campaigns we know with 5, 10, and $25 donations.

- Yes.

- And so I think it's definitely something you can accomplish, but it's very important that you know your why.

And it's very important to educate yourself on what the different parts of government are, because that's, to me, the biggest disconnect that we have, as Michael was talking about, that people just don't know what government is and what roles different parts serve.

- And in some ways, LA, I look at representation, and it seems like we had greater, I would say we, African Americans, had greater representation back during a previous decade than we have even today even though we're supposed to be making, and have made, so much progress.

What is your understanding?

- That's a great point, Deb.

And so first before I answer that question I do wanna note for listeners that primary, our primary, is scheduled for May 17th.

And a potential second primary for July 5th or July 26th.

So that part of the historic strategy and election is also knowing when the dates are, because everything has been moving, everything's been in flux.

- Yes.

- So document those dates.

That's one.

- Yes.

- Thank you.

- Two, to back up to the history, right?

Here's the reality that we're looking at.

The redistricting and the gerrymandering that has been taking place in drawin' these maps last year and what's been struck down this year, has been an orchestrated attack against black elected officials.

It is tied to actually dilute and remove black elected officials from their districts, and the best and most precise way to do that is to dilute black voting power.

We saw that historically in the reconstruction era of the 1870s when black communities who were newly emancipated created black towns and accumulated over 15 million acres of land and elected from that 187 black elected officials in North Carolina, including four congressional members.

In contrast today, we have two.

So when you're talking about the inequities, there was an attack on that ascension of power in the 1870s.

And that is when the first racial gerrymanders began in eastern North Carolina when the powers of be gerrymandered and called it the Black Second where they packed black voters in, diluted their power, and removed those black elected officials.

We're seeing the exact same thing.

One of our two congressional members, Congressman Butterfield, has already elevated that this is an alarm, a five alarm fire, that he is retiring next year after Republicans removed Pit County, which is about 35% of black from his district.

The last thing is the number of black legislators in the original maps, again, it has been struck down, but we have to be very clear what was just struck down.

Black legislators are being drawn out of their districts - Yes.

- and it has outpaced any recent redistricting cycles.

- Yeah.

- This has impacted local, county, city council, black commissioners, all the way up to the black state and federal level.

It is very orchestrated and it is a trend that is happening nationally.

So we have to be very clear.

This isn't the first time in history.

It's because the ascension of power that we are accumulating, these are strategic attacks and you do that by diluting the black voting power.

And the rural population, while our rural populations in the state has decreased, it has increased in black and brown population, which means this is becoming a plantation politic.

More black and brown folks in rural areas, which make up 80% of the state, but we have more white elected officials at a higher probability of being in office that black voters did not vote in due to gerrymandering.

That's the real threat.

- [Senator Murdock] Mhm.

- Well, it's important for people to also understand that the voting also includes judges.

And as of the recording of this program, President Biden has announced his pick for a Supreme Court Justice.

Her name is Ketanji Brown Jackson, DC appellate court judge.

And we congratulate her on that nomination.

Senator Murdock, what are your thoughts?

- I am elated.

I am a proud member of When with Black Women, and we started a national campaign, honestly during the Obama era, to get a black woman on the U.S. Supreme Court.

And just thrilled and elated to get this news this mornin'.

History will be made.

She will be confirmed.

And I also wanna preface everything that's gonna go on with her confirmation that she is beyond qualified, so I don't wanna hear anything about her qualification.

She is a double IV undergrad in law school degree from Harvard, was already approved, is already a member of the federal court system.

Beyond qualified and just, you need to see this level of diversity on the highest court of the land.

And, black women, we are leaders.

We have a right to be seen at every level of government, including the highest court of the land.

So, with all of the heaviness that we've been dealing with this week globally, I'm just thrilled that we can have a moment on this Friday to celebrate, and quite frankly, to honor, that President Biden fulfilled his campaign promise as well.

I think we need to acknowledge him for that.

- Absolutely.

And I would love to get everyone else's thoughts on this.

Maybe just a 30 second, Michael.

Reaction.

- Well I'm just happy to hear about the announcement.

I think it's well overdue.

I believe, as most of us know, black women have been the ones that hold us down over the last few years in terms of political representation, as well as just having a solid voice.

And so with what she can bring to the bench will allow for us to finally have issues that affect us bein' taken at a higher level of consideration.

So, I'm on, I think it's well timed to end Black History Month, as well as start Women's History Month, with such - Yes.

- a historic opportunity.

So I'm grateful that we have this opportunity to be better taken care as a country by a black woman.

- Absolutely.

And right now I'm gonna thank representative Robert Reives for joining us.

I know you have to duck out, - Thank you.

- but we appreciate you being here, and thank you so much for joining "Black Issues Forum."

- Thank you for havin' me.

It's been wonderful.

- A video depicting police racial bias in action went viral last week after police were called to break up an altercation between two teenagers at a shopping mall in Bridgeport, New Jersey.

- #*#*#*#*!

- Come outside, come outside.

#*#*#*#*!

oh #*#*#*#*!

Yo!

Oh #*#*#*#*!

- Chill.

Brian get up!

Chill, Brian Brian Brian leave.

Holy.

Holy #*#*#*#*!

- Yo it's 'cause he's black.

- Ah #*#*#*#*!

- Racially motiviated.

- It was later revealed that the taller 15 year old was not white, but told reporters that his mother's Colombian and his father is Pakistani.

The younger boy was 14 and reportedly was trying to defend his friend, a seventh grader, in the incident.

Senator Murdock, you see this video and what did you think?

- [sighs] Just really heartbreaking.

And as you laid it out, it just really, really shows that implicit bias, racial bias is real and that is why we have to talk about these issues.

When we try to shy away from it, these things will continue to happen.

When you look at training in law enforcement, I spent some time at the Department of Justice, and when we train law enforcement to go into diverse communities, they have to know what they're walking into and you cannot jump into a situation and treat someone differently simply because they're Black.

This is exact exactly what happened, and it's on film!

Unfortunately we saw the same with George Floyd.

The revolution will be televised and I'm just thankful that we have this cell phone footage because we will continue to show this footage.

Unfortunately, it will not be the last incident.

But when you see it in black and white, it does at least allow us to move forward with proceedings from an administrative perspective or in a court of law so that we hopefully will continue to shed a light on these issues and these incidents when folks want to simply explain them away.

But you cannot justify why these two young men were treated so very differently.

You cannot justify that.

- And what kills me every time is that we continue to plead the case.

It's as though there's this fact that exists and every time something like this comes around, it's like, well, now see, here's a perfect example of it.

LA, what are your thoughts?

Can we have legislation to try to control this?

- Right, so you really read my mind.

[laughs] You knew I was about to go to the policy, right?

So for it's hopeful to see this generation, this emerging generation, that is in this state of advocacy for themselves, We've seen an adolescent opportunity where there's arguments happening, bullying that's happening, these are natural adolescent engagement.

And to see youth have to be activated almost as adults with logical comprehension to say, well wait a minute, this isn't fair, that advocacy is admirable, but it shouldn't be an onus that is placed on the shoulders of those teens to regulate police action.

And so to that point, we have to have regulation and enforcement.

And so last year, what we saw even in North Carolina was the hope of a database that would collect examples of use of force, injury, and fatality by law enforcement.

But then there was a provision that was hidden within the state budget that actually restricts and forbids law enforcement and sheriff's offices from even publicizing and detailing those very incidences that we fought for.

Most of the public doesn't know that.

So now law enforcement in North Carolina, their hands are tied.

Even if they wanted to make it public, the general assembly made it ineffective and prohibited that event.

So here's that issue.

What is the enforcement that has been snuck in provisions that we're not aware of?

The FBI has a use of force data collection, but it's self-reported data.

You can't trust, again, agencies to go against their own best self-interest.

And because of that, there hasn't been enough reports and that database actually might be shut down as a program because the FBI hasn't received enough self-report data.

And we need to social media, to Senator Murdock's point, because that's our database.

- And we just talked about self-reporting.

Michael, your thoughts.

- Well, I'm gonna take a different take on this 'cause as a father, I first see this is just heartbreaking.

I have teenage children, two teenage boys, and just thinking about them, if this was them.

And you always prepare your children, as Black people we always have to prepare our children for the possibility that this could be the outcome.

Most of the times, our kids, because of their lack of maturity, they don't understand that this can happen to them.

They think it can't happen to them, no different than those kids being in the mall fighting.

They didn't think they went there to start a fight.

I think that when you look at this in perspective, you had a young kid defending another young kid, trying to help him out, and sometimes that goes too far.

Really what I wanna bring this to is when we look at culture and we look at policing, sometimes we have to understand a lot of these police officers are young and so not only are they inadequately trained, they also have been trained by their own pop cultural influences, whether that's video games and other things that allow for them to lose the sense of empathy and believe shoot first is the policy, to bring violence and force is the policy.

But then I also have to shift it to our young people, especially having young kids.

Some of the music and some of the things we see in culture are driving these negative narratives that some unfortunately, they become the commercial that police officers and people of other cultures only see our community as.

They see us as the tough guy gang person, they see us as the drill rapper, and so when they see us in these discerning moments, we have to go deeper and understand that we have a cultural-social issue of the lens in what we see and what perception is that keeps causing these constant instances.

- I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we have come to the end.

Great point.

Michael Stewart-Isaacs, thank you so much, as well as LA Whittington and Senator Natalie Murdock.

We appreciate you.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- I want to thank today's guest for joining us today.

We invite you to engage with a us on Twitter or Instagram using the hashtag #BlackIssuesForum.

You could also find all of our full episodes on pbsnc.org/blackissuesforum or listen at any time on Apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching.

[upbeat music] ♪ Quality public television is made possible through the financial contributions of viewers like you who invite you to join in supporting PBS NC.