On this episode of Roots, Race and Culture.

Finding a new home in Utah.

Most refugees are forced to leave, and it is the hope that the majority of those who leave and come to a place will contribute to its success.

Are you going to run for office someday?

Will you vote for me?

I would.

I want to contribute in so many different ways.

That doesn't always equal monetary value.

Join us for Roots, Race and Culture.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Roots, Race, and Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Hey everyone, and welcome to "Roots, Race, and Culture," where we bring you into candid conversations about shared cultural experiences.

I'm Lonzo Liggins.

- And I'm Danor Gerald.

Utah has a history of refugees predating statehood itself.

In fact, today, an estimated 70,000 refugees call the Beehive State home.

Those families pump an estimated $3.5 billion into the Salt Lake City economy.

- But these refugees are far more than statistics.

So today, we want to introduce you to two of the names, faces, and stories from our own backyard.

Welcome, ladies.

How are you doing today?

- Ah, so good.

- Amandine, can you introduce yourself for us?

- Yeah, my name is Amandine Akimana.

I'm born and raised in Tanzania.

My family and I have been in the US about 16 or so years, since 2008.

I'm a graduate of University of Utah.

- Nice, okay, and here we have Madelaine.

Could you introduce yourself for us please?

- Absolutely, Madelaine Lamah, originally from Guinea, West Africa, came here in 2010, graduated from the University of Utah.

I've worked as a financial analyst, recently as a policy advisor at the Salt Lake County Council, and now an entrepreneur.

So thanks for having me.

- Awesome, welcome.

Sounds like you've been quite busy since you got here.

Okay, I'd like to start with you, Amandine.

Can you tell us about your early experience coming here to the United States as a refugee or what that experience was like for you personally?

- My earliest experience coming to the US, it was very weird.

I do remember us, like my siblings and I, so I'm the eldest daughter, and I do remember all of us at the airport.

The thing that shocked us the most was the snow and how cold it was.

Because like where we had just come from was like, it was really warm.

But for us, that was like the biggest shock, because to this day, like we just still talk about it.

- Yeah, wow.

- What about you, Maddy?

What was your experience?

- Okay, so I came here as a political refugee, which may be just a little different because I know Amandine, there are different experiences.

There's war refugees.

My mom came here in 2006 as a political refugee.

Then four years later, we joined her in 2010.

So I remember being away.

We were away from her for four years.

- A long time.

- Yeah.

But when we landed here in 2010, Utah has been home since then.

I've gone in.

But I always come back.

- So there's a definition here that the Oxford Dictionary gives us of the term refugee.

And it's something that you mentioned, a person who's forced to leave their country to escape war, persecution, or natural disasters.

But then there's also religious refugees as we will find out about more about that later.

Is there any difference that people understand the difference between being a refugee and being an immigrant or maybe even an illegal immigrant?

Like do people treat you differently or do they kind of think it's the same thing?

- Well, okay, so I think first, I wanna go with the definitions.

I think it's good to know that there's, so there is migrants, that's the bigger umbrella.

And the way I see is every refugee is an immigrant and every immigrant is a migrant.

A migrant is somebody who moves from one country to another, not necessarily to stay long.

An immigrant is somebody who moves from their country to another country for permanent residency, right?

In whatever form that takes.

Now a refugee is somebody who's forced to leave their home and then to resettle somewhere else as a permanent resident.

So all refugees are immigrants, but not every immigrant is a refugee.

Most refugees are forced to leave for whatever, for persecution, for war, political, whatever it may be.

- I don't know how people are treating you guys, if they're treating you when they find out that you're a refugee, if they treat you like, oh, well why don't you just go back home then, like everything's okay now, right?

- So I think it depends on where you're at.

In Utah, I think the experience in Utah, because there is a spectrum.

There is those who are like, "Go back where you're from."

And then there are those who are like, "Oh you poor, poor thing."

And in Utah, I think most of it is usually "You poor, poor thing.

You must be just the most devastating individual I've ever met."

A lot of them don't think about how a lot of refugees are intellectual.

They went to school, some of them were doctors.

My mom was a doctor in my country before, you know?

And I think it's good to remember that.

So in the Utah experience for me has always been, "Oh, you are so poor.

Here is this old shirt I've had for 25 years."

No!

- Rags or something.

Your mom was a a lawyer, right?

- She was, no, and that's what I wanted to say like on top of that, like our parents too, I didn't have the language to name that that's what was happening.

But as soon as they got here, they also wanted to go back all the time.

I remember that being a conversation and not really kind of putting two and two together because I thought we just came from somewhere bad and then now we're safe, because that is also being talked about.

But then they also wanna go back.

- There's this great quote, it's from this book from Dina Nayeri, Nayeri, excuse me.

She's the author of the book, "The Ungrateful Refugee."

And the quote says, "It is the obligation of every person born in a safer room to open the door when someone in danger knocks," that's the quote.

What are your thoughts about that quote?

What do you think about that?

- Okay, so I love the quote.

It is the responsibility.

It is the responsibility.

However, I do have to say this.

When she says it's their responsibility, I think she's appealing to the moral side of humanity.

I think it's good to note as a moral being personally, I do think it's everybody's responsibility to help their neighbor.

However, you have to think about from a legal and political standpoint, like the US Constitution for example doesn't explicitly say that the US is required to help anyone or admit anyone.

But if you assume that the US has based its Constitution on Christian values, you would hope that the moral value is that they can open their doors to people who are in need.

Because the Constitution, although it explicitly doesn't say it, it does infer that anybody under state jurisdiction is entitled to equal protection and due process of law.

So from that, people do infer that the US should help people.

And from a moral perspective, I would agree with that quote that yes, it is the responsibility of any country to help.

- There's an ending to her quote.

So she has another quote.

She purposely titled the book "The Ungrateful Refugees" because she felt there's a notion that refugees should be grateful for their asylum.

However, she claims that the asylum often comes with loss, degradation, and mental hardship.

What do you think about that?

- Okay, so this is what... When Amandine was saying back to your introduction about statehood, I think this is what people should often remember.

The US, we always say this, was founded by refugees.

When the founding fathers, as people say, came from England to here, they were looking for something better, right?

And in looking for something better, they made the US what it is, hopefully a great nation.

That is the hope for every refugee, when they leave their country, and I think going back to a question you asked earlier, a refugee is somebody who was forced to leave, I think that's the statute that they usually use to know who deserves to be a refugee, which, ugh, we don't wanna get into that.

But when a refugee leaves the country they come, the hope is they're coming for something better, which in turn will help them make where they're at a better place like the founding fathers did.

And so if we were able to give the founding fathers that grace or that understanding, I think it's good to give that kind of an understanding to refugees.

Now not every person who left England became a contributor to what a great nation America is, right?

And not every refugee who leaves will become a great contributor to where they go.

But it is the hope that the majority of those who leave and come to a place will contribute to its success.

- Are you gonna run for office someday?

- Will you vote for me?

- I would, I would totally vote for you.

- What are your thoughts on that, Amandine?

- Well I guess for me, I connected that to something that I feel like I've experienced in my refugee experience I guess where there are hidden costs or sort of prices that you pay for having the experience of being a refugee.

And getting to like Utah, you know, you are given like safety and you know, community and belonging and a lot of those things.

But a lot of times, I feel like it does come at the expense of like, like the way we pay for that safety is something that you like had mentioned earlier where it's like, we have to give up our old identities.

So we give up a lot about, all of our friends, the house, the people, the communities that we lived in.

- The food.

- The food.

The food, no, because I could talk about it for ages.

No, but there is- - We can all talk about the food.

When you think of the differences with Africa and here, when we're talking about individualistic stuff, do you think that that's a better way of living with community living, or do you feel like individualistic, or is there advantages to both?

- Because I came here, I have had the opportunity to get an education.

I've had the opportunity to contribute, and I'm getting the opportunity to build what I want, the future that I want for myself, right?

So there are positive things, in my country, I loved growing up.

I loved my friends, I loved the food, I loved the respect for elders that I learned, right?

But I also can't help but criticize perhaps how I was put down as a woman.

And I am grateful that I get that opportunity here, though not everybody may agree, because the US has its own flaws about a lot of other cultural things, whether it's a woman or whatever.

But I'm grateful for those opportunities.

Had I not been here, I don't think I would've had those.

So there is positive and negative for both.

And I think the great mind figures out the positives from both and tries to ameliorate the negatives from both.

- That's great.

- Nice, yeah, I was recently at this conference and I ran into a gal, her name was Missy Larson.

And she was a co-chair of the Utah Refugee Connection.

And she had a few words to say.

Have you heard of Missy Larson?

- Yes.

- Well she actually did a video for us.

We're gonna play it so you guys can see it.

I just wanna get your thoughts on it once it's done.

- Today, we have refugees amongst us that are from all over the world.

Languages, different things that have brought them here.

But they have come because where they lived, they lived in fear, they lived in direct conflict, they lived in war-torn areas.

Many have seen their families killed, they have fled from very horrible circumstances.

The American Dream is there for them too.

And I'm so grateful to be a part of the Welcoming Committee through the Utah Refugee Connection and just as a neighbor and friend.

These stories are miraculous.

You talk with these people and you hear things that you couldn't even imagine why and how they came here.

Many had visions of coming to America and what that world would be.

Sometimes when they get here, they find that it's difficult, difficult to the point that it's hard to come out of their homes.

Language is difficult.

Job finding is difficult.

So whatever we can do as a community to welcome them, to help them in this American Dream, to find the freedoms that are here in the United States, I'm grateful to be a part of that.

- What do you think, Amandine?

Thoughts?

- Thoughts, I mean, I'm filled with a lot of gratitude as well because I also worked for the Refugee Services Center as a youth coordinator for some time.

And I think that's what got me to even get more curious about my own story and my own background was hearing about the different people's experiences.

- If my house wasn't burning down, I wouldn't have fled.

If these refugees did not have to live their country, if these parents, like Amandine's parents didn't have to take their children to safety, they may not have left.

And so this is the option that they had.

They were trying to find a better place, safety, and for immigrants, sometimes a better future for them and their families.

- That's part of the challenge, isn't it?

- That's part of the challenge.

Oh, going to the challenge.

Thank you for reminding me.

Like I said before, no country is obligated to help a country.

But is the challenge is this, how as a country, how do I keep my citizens safe while also providing aid to the people coming in, the refugees?

I think that's the challenge of any great leader.

Now we're seeing it where people go one extreme or the other, one, people are saying, "No, people should always should be able to come in whenever they want, however they want without law."

And the other side is saying, "No, the law should be upheld."

The challenge is how do we make sure both are upheld, both are brought in?

- So we mentioned earlier, this has been going on for centuries, right?

And one thing that was mentioned previously, we have a list of some people historically who have been refugees.

But I wanna start off with the first one, which we may not have an image to go with this, but it's Jesus Christ.

- True.

- But then we have some other refugees historically.

The Mormon pioneers were refugees because they were fleeing from states like Missouri where there was an extinction order on them.

And here we have an image to show them on their way out west.

That's how Utah's estate was primarily settled.

- [Lonzo] Yep, Albert Einstein, he was driven out of Germany after the Nazis began persecuting the Jews.

He renounced his German citizenship and he moved to the US.

He's considered one of the most renowned physicians in history.

- [Danor] Yeah, physicist.

Freddie Mercury, lead singer of the band Queen, born Faruk Balsara in Zanzibar.

And he fled Zanzibar in the revolution in 1964 to England.

- And then of course there's Mila Kunis, and better known as Meg in "Family Guy."

She and her family left Ukraine 1991 when she was seven years old due to the antisemitism and a lack of opportunities under the Soviet regime, they arrived in the US as religious refugees with just $250.

There's a lot of history in our country with refugees as well.

And we sometimes overlook that.

- I think Amandine and I have had this discussion because she and I have been friends for a long time.

We've had this discussion before where refugees have felt the need to let go of where they come from or who they are just because they wanna please where they're going.

But you've got to know where you're from, who you are in order to be good where you're going.

And I think though, mainly it comes from them, it comes from a lot of microaggressions.

I'm not going to lie.

When I first came here, I was made fun with my hair.

For the first probably seven years of my life in the United States, I wore extensions to school every day.

I could not leave home without extensions or something, even a scarf, wearing a scarf, we would be considered unprofessional.

I couldn't go to school that way, right?

And that's the idea, like feeling like you have to let go of so much of yourself just to perform to the culture that you're in.

- Like you put on a different performance based on how, based on what your background is.

And the reason why I said performance is because the system that you are coming into, you do have to find your new place within this system.

And like Madelaine had just pointed out with the microaggressions, if that is new to you, like with my background, you also are faced with the task of trying to understand this new culture.

You're constantly just gauging where you are and how to stay safe.

So sometimes that causes you to abandon parts of yourself if they're not being accepted.

- Can I make a point on that?

I came straight from Guinea to Utah.

Utah was the first place I landed.

And my family were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

We became baptized into the church.

- Before or after?

- After we moved here.

I learned English from the white person's perspective, right?

And I spoke in a way where by the time I got college and I met a lot of my friends and I was in the BSU, they're like, "You speak so white."

So then I had to learn.

I literally, going back to what Amandyine was saying, when I was with my Black friends, I started speaking a certain way.

And when I was with my white friends, I had to speak a certain way because it felt like what she was saying, you almost have to learn how to balance.

- It's meta.

- Both.

Yeah.

But it's like, but how can I be true to myself?

How can I merge both?

How can I speak like this?

Because this is how I speak.

- Yeah, but that creates another complexity, right?

Which is that there's also Black America.

There's white America and there's other groups.

So let's get into that discussion quickly.

Let's talk about African versus the Black American experience.

- I actually wanna answer this one.

No, I wanna take this one because memory just vividly came back.

I am from a country that is predominantly has people that look like me.

So for me, my complexion has never been something that, like I was thinking about, you know, from day to day.

And I do remember at the early stages of me learning English.

Like I knew my colors, you know?

So I did know what black was and I did know what brown was, and I knew what red was.

And you know, you're very proud of yourself.

But I remember an incident, not an incident, but in sixth grade, in one of my art classes that we took, we were doing self-portraits.

And you know, the art teacher explains everything that we're supposed to do.

And you can come to her if you have questions, right?

I'm doing a drop myself.

And then I go out to pick out like the colors and stuff.

And I remember I was like doing like the brown color for my like face.

And I had done, I was gonna do black for my hair, because those were different colors in my head.

And the girl that was sitting next to me just blurted out like, "You're Black though."

And I don't know why I remember that because I was just like, I mean, like- - [Lonzo] You had to use the Black card.

- No, but she also, like I was thrown, I wasn't sure if she meant like I was using the wrong color or like what that meant.

I literally was like, oh, like no I'm not.

So like, it took me a while maybe until seventh grade to know that I was like Black.

- That's the innocence of a child.

I mean, my response to her, because I'm a very feisty person, would've been, "But you're salmon though."

Because the colors- - To me, it would be like a pinkish like kind of peach color that I would know mix together, but then it's white.

So it could be very contradictory into like- - And I think that really leans into education in the home, right?

I just met this kid here, this little kid.

He's the cutest boy.

And we were holding hands because we were doing a dance.

And he looks at me, he's like, "I really like your brown skin."

And that was the first time I ever had a child say brown instead of like black, you know?

And I think it really comes from, well, first of all, that was just his innocent eyes, right?

But I also think how kids perceive or how people, even adults perceive others comes from education.

What they grew up with.

But I was gonna lead into the African American experience if that's okay.

Oh, Africans and African American.

- It's a big deal.

- I've had to, oh, I keep doing that.

But I think one of the biggest struggles or biggest points of contention between me and my African American friends, and fortunately we're comfortable enough to have this conversation, is that a lot of my African American friends feel that Africans undermine the African American experience because a lot of African Americans have dealt, they know what it's like to be children of slaves, right?

They know what it feels like to be oppressed in different ways.

A lot of us as refugees, we've been oppressed one way or the other.

But with the African American experience, it's different.

And I think Amandine may have been pointing to something like this earlier.

When you're an African, just immigrants in general, when you come from maybe a very poor background, you come to the US, you get the chance to work, to make $7 an hour, that could translate to millions in your home country, probably not, but that could translate to a lot of thousands in your home country.

Africans get to work, and what happens in getting to work, they tend to settle for less.

African Americans have found that that's an issue because they're like, "We're trying so hard.

We've been fighting for decades to get equality, to get fair wage, fair minimum and you guys are coming and undermining that."

And that's one of the greatest points of contention I've seen.

And so as a refugee, my experience is, I think that's what you were saying earlier.

I've been so poor, I'm grateful for what I have here now, I'm gonna accept it and be okay with it and be happy and be content.

And the African American's saying, "Yeah, sure, but I've come from a worse place here with this country with the history of this country.

I wanna get better, I wanna have better opportunities.

I wanna have the opportunities that my white counterparts have."

Whereas refugees are just thinking, "I wanna have a better opportunity," African Americans are thinking, "I wanna have equal opportunities as my white counterparts."

- But we are like kind of grouped together, but we like deal with different things.

So for me, that's something that I did struggle with kind of seeing the difference because for me, I'm like, well, I'm not Black.

So the things that people would say to me didn't hit me as much as like it would hit someone.

- That makes so much sense though.

I feel like racism didn't hit me as much until at least I got to college.

- Not dismissed it.

- And my friends were saying it.

Yeah, it just didn't phase me because I didn't grow up with, like, everybody looked like me.

There was no such thing as racism, you know?

But when I came here, I started college, that's when I really started getting into, I was like, "Oh, I understand it now."

- And then no, literally.

- We were like, "We told you."

We gotta wrap up here, guys.

But real quick though, I just wanna ask you, what's the resources, and then we gotta wrap this up here.

- Being a part of so many different communities like BSU, it will expose you to very different people.

- Black Student Union.

- Yeah, the Black Student Union.

If you are in college or in high school, they do offer that.

And if you are looking for any refugee or asylum, immigration help, the state of Utah does have a lot of resources like the Refugee Services Office.

A lot of things can be done there for everybody.

Youth, parents, men, and women.

Like there's different resources depending on the need.

The Asian Associate Community.

- Yeah, the Asian Associations.

- The Catholic Community Services.

So a lot of people are always willing to give a helping hand, and there's a lot of people ready to help.

- And to add to that, the International Rescue Committee, IRC.

My family came here with help with the Catholic Community Services and the LDS church, LDS charities and stuff.

But I do wanna say Utah is ranked among the top 25 for best resettlement state for refugees.

There are many resources here for refugees.

And along those lines really quickly, I do wanna say the best resource for a refugee is you, the neighbor.

It's you, the person watching this, the people, because you're the person making their experience.

If you give them a terrible experience, they'll have a terrible experience.

If you're a good neighbor, even if you don't give them money or old clothes, they'll be okay because of your kindness.

- That's a great way to end the show.

- That's awesome.

- That's wonderful.

I love that.

- That's lovely.

And so from all of us at PBS Utah, thank you for joining the conversation.

As always, other episodes can be found on our website, pbsutah.org/roots, or on the PBS Utah YouTube channel.

- And if you have any feedback or ideas for other episodes, be sure to give us a shout out on social media.

Until next time, for "Roots, Race, and Culture," y'all, we are out.

- Out!

- [Announcer] Funding for "Roots, Race, and Culture" is provided in part by the Norman C. and Barbara L. Tanner Charitable Support Trust, and by donations to PBS Utah from viewers like you.

Thank you.

(upbeat music) (bright music)