Lakeland Currents, your public affairs program for north central Minnesota.

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Hello again friends, I'm Jason Eden's your host of Lakeland Currents.

Thanks for joining the conversation today and thanks for your ongoing support of Lakeland Public Tv.

Our region is home to some of the most iconic and impactful summer camps in the nation.

People literally come from all over the world to spend part of their summers here in our region.

My two guests today will help us better understand the importance of these experiences and a little bit more about their respective camps.

I'd like to welcome Ruggs Cote director of Camp Hubert and Camp Lincoln near Nisswa Minnesota and Terry Bredemus director of Camp Birchwood south of Bemidji.

Gentlemen welcome to the program.

Thank you so much for making some time today.

Ruggs/Terry: Thanks for having Jason.

Jason: Thanks.

Well first of all Ruggs let's start with you.

I'm interested, can you just kind of zoom out and tell us a little bit generally about Camp Hubert and camp Lincoln?

What makes them unique?

Ruggs: Yeah, well they're traditional residential summer camps.

Kind of on your east coast design.

Kids come for two to four weeks at a time, from as you said 47 different states and about 13 different countries.

Single sec so the boys are on one side and the girls are over at camp lake Hubert on the south end of the lake.

Just a big diverse group of people doing a diverse number of activities and adventures and programs.

Jason: Terry?

Terry: We're a lot the same in that respect.

Our kids and staff are from all over the place but they come to camp and we talk about camp in terms of how much fun it is.

But with every activity of fun it's actually we have a desired outcome of some sort of growth, whether it's a skill or a confidence.

It's something intentional that campers don't understand are getting at first.

They think they're having fun, making friends and later they feel that pride and accomplishment.

So we're doing more than just providing a recreational spot.

Jason: Terry I'd like to build on that actually a little bit.

I enjoyed reading more about how kindness and respect are really central to your programming at camp Birchwood.

I was wondering if you tell us a little bit more about that?

Terry: Because a lot of times even if they have siblings they are in their separate bedrooms.

Some of them don't even share a bathroom and now they're in a cabin with 10 to 12 others, in our case ladies.

That need to learn some of those social skills of give and take and tolerance of differences.

Our staff are really trained well, my wife Rachel is is quite a teacher.

She's engaging and entertaining with some substance that really help young ladies develop.

Jason: Ruggs I wanted to ask you about something that I found interesting.

It's my understanding that you started actually as a camper and then as a counselor.

Can you tell us a little bit more about how you've become so central to both Camp Hubert and Camp Lincoln?

Ruggs: Yeah, I grew up at camp actually, my dad was director starting in the 60s and so I was basically born into camp.

And was a camper in the cabins throughout my childhood, did the counselor in training program at the time.

And was a counselor for a bit and then went away and did some some other jobs after college.

But in 97 the opportunity to come back became available and I jumped at it.

Jason: Well one of the other things that I found interesting, is that this is certainly not the first time that the two of you have spoken.

In fact tell me more about how Camp Birchwood kind of its origin story is directly related to Camp Hubert and Camp Lincoln?

Can you tell us about that Terry?

Terry: A little bit unless Ruggs cuts me off.

Ruggs and I have been friends since the day we met.

Somewhere back in those days I too, I'm third generation in the camp business.

My grandfather and Rugg's grandfather and one other man were partners.

Although be it my grandfather was a junior partner but he met my mother there when he was the wilderness director.

And they got married at the Camp Hubert dining hall.

And from there he was in business somewhere else and they decided we want to get back into camping.

And there wasn't a room or a job back at the Camp Lincoln and Hubert Camps.

And so they bought camp Birchwood in 1958.

And I basically like Ruggs grew up camp.

We had a boys session back then, so I grew up there, went to camp as a camper, as a counselor and director.

And then I left for 20 years and was in business, until my father got sick and he said any chance you would like to come back?

And he was sure that I wouldn't.

And like Ruggs opportunity arose and that's exactly where I wanted to be.

Jason: Well obviously gentlemen, both of your camps leave a lifetime impression on your campers.

I was wondering if you could tell us a story of impact?

I'm sure that many of your campers reach out periodically after having not seen you for quite some time.

Each tell us a story of impact.

Someone who's reached out and explained to you what a powerful profound experience it was to spend their summers with you.

Ruggs can we start with you?

Ruggs: Yeah, I mean I just had a gentleman reach out a little bit ago.

A couple weeks ago, was a camper in 1955 and 1956 and the experience was to him life-changing.

He was a son of a single mom who was a teacher and someone paid for him to go to camp for two summers.

And he said that the experience just transformed his whole life.

Gave him, gave him a lot of hope and just kind of expanded his view.

I mean he meets all these kids from Oklahoma and from Dallas and Kansas City.

And it just, the world kind of opened up to him at the time.

And so he reached out to us and ended up, he wanted to give some to the scholarship fund to be able to do the same thing for someone else.

So that was pretty nice.

Jason: 1955 that's amazing.

Terry do you have a similar story?

Terry: I'm the lucky one because I've been back for 27 years and since I grew up here a lot of people identify me as part of camp.

And so I get those stories.

I get the people that say change my life, I wouldn't be who I am without that.

But when you asked for a story... had a camper family on vacation in Florida, walking down the beach.

And the 10 year old daughter saw a vendor renting hobie sales books and begged her parents to let's rent one let's go sailing.

They said honey we don't know anything about how to run a boat like that.

And she said I do, I learned at camp.

And so for the rest of the vacation every day they went sailing and their little ten-year-old girl made that happen.

She was so proud.

That's a pretty recent story but that mother was compelled to call me right after vacation and let me in on that fun, fun little story.

But there's a lot of those people.

I by misfortune, non-misfortune my dad's sister is Julia Roberts brother.

So Julia is a first cousin of mine and went to camp for 10 years with us.

And in my father's memorial service she said "I pretend to be a lot of people but who I am came from this place."

And fairly touching.

Jason: That's remarkable and I'm sure you have thousands of stories like that.

That's fantastic.

I didn't expect Julia Roberts to come up in the conversation today, that's remarkable.

Well speaking of which where do your campers come from, Rugs I think you mentioned 47 states 13 countries?

Is there kind of a an archetype of the students or I'm sorry the campers that visit with you every year?

Ruggs: Yeah, I mean it's a lot of, it is your main midwestern cities.

So Dallas is our number two city, our Denver is.

I'm sorry Dallas is big, Houston, Kansas city, Chicago.

But the west coast and east coast have been gaining a lot of campers of late.

A lot of people wanting to get their kids back to the Midwest.

Kind of get those Midwest values, if you will.

So we've seen a lot of growth there.

And then you know overseas it's you know Mexico, France, some Italy and then just kind of a scattering all over.

You get a lot of expats or you know, Americans who have married someone over in Asia who want their kids to have some connection back to America.

They'll send their kids back to.

So it's kind of all over and that's kind of what we go for you know.

We we certainly don't mind Minnesota kids but we like to have a diverse group of kids from all over.

So it's only about 20 to 25 percent Minnesotans that are at camp and we really like to mix up the chalet.

So that they get to know kids from all over.

Jason: Sure.

So, Terry same question for you, what percentage of your campers come from Minnesota?

Terry: Well percentage, it's a small percentage 20-25 somewhere in there.

And then our marketing area, we're much smaller than the Camp Lincoln, Camp Hubert group.

It's the Midwest, it's Chicago, St. Louis, Kansas City, Minneapolis but being 65 years in the business kids have grown up and they've married international and they've moved all over the country.

And they send their kids back.

So even though I'm not out in San Francisco doing a promotional session, I have a half a dozen kids because their parents have a connection.

Jason: So just to be abundantly clear, are your camps for-profits or non-profits?

Terry: We're a Jason: Okay, so you're both for-profit organizations.

So... Terry: We're hoping to see one someday.

[yeah] Jason: Well I was actually going to ask you about that because looking at your fee schedules it certainly isn't the type of experience that everyone can afford so I'm wondering do you, do you make any efforts to invite some lower income campers periodically and if so how do you do that?

Ruggs: We have some, we have some relationships with some schools and some friends of schools and there are some groups that will kind of help find kids that deserve the experience or you know could really use the experience and then families, a lot of families will let us know of people that hey, this kid goes to our school.

You know I'm not sure he can afford it but you know he'd be a good candidate, you know you might want to talk to them and so we'll reach out to them and you know see if we can make something work.

We have a small scholarship fund and we typically give away about twice as much scholarship as we have in our scholarship fund each year.

Just to again, to really get that diversity we want to have you know as much diversity you know geographical, ethnic, even socioeconomic, I mean everything.

The more diverse a group we can have the better.

Jason: Do you approach it differently Terry?

Terry: Almost exactly the same way.

A small scholarship fund that some of it's memorials and things that families have donated.

We certainly aren't in the endowment area that can continually so yeah we scholarship kids by cutting the fees when it makes sense but not a formal scholarship program.

Jason: One of the things that I found interesting about Birchwood in particular was the fact that you also facilitate some wilderness excursions right?

Some of your campers spend multiple nights on wilderness tracks.

Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Terry: Well they have lots of options.

They can go on an overnight trip, mountain biking, canoe trips on the Mississippi.

We use the Boundary Waters a lot because it's, it's accessible to us and we have a boys camp at the very end of the Gunflint Trail and our girls love to paddle from Ely over to the boys camp the Grand Marais side and visit there.

My brother and his daughter are the owners of our boys camp now.

Jason: Oh so there's another Camp Birchwood for boys near Grand Marais?

Is that correct?

Terry: If you go to Grand Marais and turn left and then go to where the water starts that's us.

Jason: Okay, fantastic.

[very end] Well I'd like to ask you a little bit both of you, a little bit about the unique plan for this summer and I'd like to start out with asking you where are you getting your health guidance in order to move forward this summer with some confidence regarding health and safety?

Ruggs?

Ruggs: You know Jason I'd say everywhere but the key places are of course the Center For Disease Control and Prevention, the American Camp Association.

You know since all this stuff started, started working with a group was it EH & G, EH & E, Environmental Health and Engineering to come up with guidelines for how camps could run under COVID19.

The Minnesota Department of Health you know they've, they've been putting out some guidelines for us and then really the whole camp community has come together in, in quite a fashion.

I mean they've always been pretty, pretty helpful to each other but this year has been incredible.

There were what, 19, 20% of camps that did actually run last year with various levels of success and they've all been wonderful giving their time of let us know what worked, what didn't work, you know what they feel like didn't, didn't help at all.

You know it's, it's been really amazing.

We've been on zoom calls really since we canceled our summer, discussing how we're going to make camp work with COVID19 in 2021.

Jason: And Terry, how are you going to make camp work if you know with covid in 2021?

What's your plan for health and safety?

I'm sure that's top of mind.

Terry: Certainly and, and like Ruggs, we've studied camps that did operate.

We've been in touch with camp professionals that have held focus groups talking to parents and the kids but the it boils down to the the masks, the distance and the outdoors and the call them different things, their little bubble or their pod.

We've taken every aspect that sounds like it could be a negative and tried to figure out a positive.

Just for example in that in the first number of days before they're allowed to sign up for activities and move about camp independently they'll be with their cabin group only and that means they have to eat together, they go to activities together.

There's an opportunity to develop some real bonding in relationship during that time.

I set up a log frame tent on their decks with a picnic table and then lights around it so that they would have another hangout spot and a place that they could eat.

After each meal they sing this all the silly songs and campers were concerned that we wouldn't be able to do that and so we installed a sound system that they can still sing with the leadership of our senior campers, our teenage counselors from deck to deck.

My last zoom call to a group in Denver a little girl said, couldn't we do that all the time?

That looks like great fun, so as we've looked at all the negatives we've also looked at what could make this kind of fun?

Jason: Well that's interesting because I was actually going to ask you something about that specifically, so Ruggs let me ask you.

How are you going to create a sense of community this summer in spite of social distancing?

Do you feel as if you'll be able to achieve the same esprit de corps, the same sense of enthusiasm among your campers?

Ruggs: Yeah I do.

I mean you start, our cabins are a little different where they have the three different bedrooms and so our community kind of starts with each bedroom you know every summer and then we'll build that out to the cabins and then from the cabins our cabins can hold up to 18 to 22 people and so that's a nice little community and then we're going to have them do things kind of together once they're able to so we'll expand out that community group larger and larger as the summer goes on as, as the guidance allows but I think a lot of back like there was once we had a thunderstorm and so we got everyone into shelters and they were separated and they just randomly started having a sing-off with each other and so they were singing back and forth during the thunderstorm trying to outdo the other, the other side even though there was physical barriers between them and so you know I think a lot of stuff will just kind of happen with kids as well because they're just going to be so happy to be you know outside with their friends doing things and just being at camp which kind of has that, that camp feel that everyone loves so much.

Jason: Absolutely.

So will you be operating at reduced capacity this year?

I'm curious are you going to dwindle the numbers or try and maintain the same numbers, Ruggs?

Ruggs: Right now we've, we've capped our capacity.

We've brought it down by about a third and we're just, just anticipating what's coming.

We have some guidance from the Minnesota Department of Health but it's not complete yet and really you know we're going to know so much more in two more months that we're just kind of we'd rather say you can come in off the wait list than to have to call someone and say you know we don't think you can come and so we're just kind of keeping it held back a little bit and we'll open it up as as we feel like it's, it's good to do so.

Jason: Terry kind of a similar question for you.

Are you prepared to pivot should the situation change dramatically and that must be quite the logistical challenge also as you just kind of alluded to Rugg, so what's your plan Terry?

Terry: Last fall we decided to prepare for if we had to open tomorrow would we be able to with protocols we have in place and we can so everything that is eased or cured or fixed or whatever happens between now and summer will make it that much better but under the situation that we're under right now if we were going to open tomorrow we could.

Jason: So one more question about covid or something that's specific about covid are you hoping that your campers will come with a negative test just before arrival or do you have any, any requirements regarding whether or not they get tested?

Terry: Well it's, we haven't gone as far as making that a requirement because we don't know what, it just looks so fluid that we don't know what the requirements will be but yes everyone will come to the airport with a negative test if that's still protocol when they get to camp and it's, it's not the probe to the brain anymore.

The saliva tests are kids and kid-friendly we can test when they get to camp and we think that we can test after three days and then open up our sign up.

Right now it would take us five days before we could do that so however the situation works we'll create a safe bubble and know where we stand because of the testing.

Jason: Okay that's helpful.

Well I also wanted to ask you about your selection process both before and during covid.

How would, do you have to turn campers away?

I mean tell us a little bit about the difference between supply and demand, Ruggs.

Ruggs: Typically yeah you end up having some wait lists where you have to turn kids away.

I mean especially in the middle of the summer and for us it's essentially you know first, first to the door you know gets in so it's not, not terribly selective per se until you get up to like our leadership training programs and then they have a totally separate application process with an interview and references and things like that.

It's, It's meant to, to kind of look a lot like a college application and so that they get some experience with that before they actually have to do a college application.

Jason: Terry do you have a similar experience in terms of the selection process?

Terry: Almost identical.

It's a, our senior programs have to apply and yet the rest of our campers come sporadically.

We are, we are usually half full by Thanksgiving and we're into the three-quarter range but it's usually new campers that start coming in late February, March and April.

Jason: So are you both booked then for the season based on your capacity understanding at this point, Ruggs?

Ruggs: We're getting pretty close to that at our girls camp and our boys camp is pretty full in the middle and the end of the summer.

There's still a little bit of space in the beginning but that, it's going pretty quick.

Jason: Well I'm curious how do you find staffers?

That must also be a pretty competitive process in a way.

Are your staff local or do they too come from elsewhere in the country, Terry?

Terry: They come from all over the place.

Historically we've used international agencies to help us bring internationals.

This year that's a little bit in question.

The, the, the companies that represent international staff members are, are sure they'll all make it but I'm staffing the other way.

Our staff come from kids that have grown up in our program and now they skip a year but then they're eligible to reapply as a counselor and so we'll have a third to a half that will be in that category.

We'll have another bunch that were there last year that want to come back but staffing is always an issue.

We're looking for the right type of person to be quality role models for other people's kids.

Jason: Ruggs what's the right type of person and do you also staff in a similar way or how do you find your crew for the summer?

Ruggs: Yeah it's very similar to how Terry does it.

You know yeah we've, we've brought in a few internationals before.

In fact one of the international agencies was started by one of our former program directors because he didn't like the message that the other agencies were giving the, the participants.

He wanted to change the focus to be more on the camp experience and less on traveling afterwards and that's really the kind of person we're looking for you know is someone who wants to come to camp and be the role model for the kids and be excited and go out and run around with them and sing silly songs with them and you know just be be somewhat a kid themselves but at the same time as terry talked about the beginning you know working on those kind of core values that we're trying to instill in the kids so it they're kind of playing two sides of a coin.

Where you're out there having a lot of fun but at the same time helping kids you know learn those life lessons and how to be a good person of character.

Jason: Well we have about one more minute and I have a question for the two of you about your motivations.

Obviously you both have a long history with your respective camps but tell me a little bit about your leadership style.

Are you hands-on directors and what is it that excites you about getting to camp each and every day?

Terry, why don't we start with you?

Terry: In my situation because I have a smaller camp my administrative duties aren't as demanding as they could be for Ruggs.

I teach sailing, windsurfing and leather craft so I love going to camp.

[fantastic.

Ruggs?]

Ruggs: Yeah I mean I love camp.

I like the feeling that it gives people and you know we have a long walk, we call Go Coast Road and it comes and it opens up to camp all of a sudden at the end, right at the youngest cabin and it's just this great feeling to kind of walk through this dark tunnel of trees and then pop out and camp is just kind of laid out in front of you and it just it makes you just feel so good about knowing what this place means to so many people, including myself.

Jason: Well gentlemen I want to thank you both so much for your time and all the memories you've made and all the impact you've made in our communities.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

I really appreciate it.

[Thanks Jason] And thank all of you for joining me once again.

I'm Jason Edens, your host of Lakeland Currents.

Be kind and be well.

We'll see you next week.