>>> COMING UP, MANY THOUSANDS OF >>> COMING UP, MANY THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN PRISON INMATES ARE >>> COMING UP, MANY THOUSANDS OF AMERICAN PRISON INMATES ARE LOCKED UP IN SOLITARY AMERICAN PRISON INMATES ARE LOCKED UP IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT SOMETIMES FOR LOCKED UP IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT SOMETIMES FOR DECADES.

CONFINEMENT SOMETIMES FOR DECADES.

DECADES.

LUCKY SEVERSON REPORTS.

LUCKY SEVERSON REPORTS.

>>> ALSO, POPULAR CRIME NOVELIST LUCKY SEVERSON REPORTS.

>>> ALSO, POPULAR CRIME NOVELIST JAMES LEE BURKE.

>>> ALSO, POPULAR CRIME NOVELIST JAMES LEE BURKE.

HE TELLS BOB FAW ALL WESTERN JAMES LEE BURKE.

HE TELLS BOB FAW ALL WESTERN LITERATUR AND HE TELLS BOB FAW ALL WESTERN LITERATUR AND EDUCATION.

LITERATUR AND EDUCATION.

AND THE RETIREMENT COMPANY.

EDUCATION.

AND THE RETIREMENT COMPANY.

>>> WELCOME, I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

AND THE RETIREMENT COMPANY.

>>> WELCOME, I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

>>> WELCOME, I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

AS THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

AS THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN ENTERED THE SECOND WEEK, MANY AS THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN ENTERED THE SECOND WEEK, MANY RELIGIOUS LEADERS RAMPED UP ENTERED THE SECOND WEEK, MANY RELIGIOUS LEADERS RAMPED UP THEIR CRITICISM OF LAWMAKERS IN RELIGIOUS LEADERS RAMPED UP THEIR CRITICISM OF LAWMAKERS IN WASHINGTON.

THEIR CRITICISM OF LAWMAKERS IN WASHINGTON.

A COALITION OF 98 LEADERS WASHINGTON.

A COALITION OF 98 LEADERS ACCUSED ELECTED OFFICIALS OF A COALITION OF 98 LEADERS ACCUSED ELECTED OFFICIALS OF PURSUING AN IDEOLOGICAL AGENDA ACCUSED ELECTED OFFICIALS OF PURSUING AN IDEOLOGICAL AGENDA AT THE EXPENSE OF VULNERABLE PURSUING AN IDEOLOGICAL AGENDA AT THE EXPENSE OF VULNERABLE FAMILIES AND THE WORKING POOR.

AT THE EXPENSE OF VULNERABLE FAMILIES AND THE WORKING POOR.

SEVERAL CHRISTIAN LEADERS STAGED FAMILIES AND THE WORKING POOR.

SEVERAL CHRISTIAN LEADERS STAGED WHAT THEY CALLED A FAITHFUL SEVERAL CHRISTIAN LEADERS STAGED WHAT THEY CALLED A FAITHFUL FILIBUSTER NEAR THE U.S. WHAT THEY CALLED A FAITHFUL FILIBUSTER NEAR THE U.S. CAPITOL.

FILIBUSTER NEAR THE U.S. CAPITOL.

WHERE THEY CONTINUOUSLY READ CAPITOL.

WHERE THEY CONTINUOUSLY READ BIBLE PASSAGES ABOUT CARING FOR WHERE THEY CONTINUOUSLY READ BIBLE PASSAGES ABOUT CARING FOR THE POOR.

BIBLE PASSAGES ABOUT CARING FOR THE POOR.

>> IF YOU MISTREAT THE POOR, YOU THE POOR.

>> IF YOU MISTREAT THE POOR, YOU INSULT YOUR CREATOR.

>> IF YOU MISTREAT THE POOR, YOU INSULT YOUR CREATOR.

IF YOU ARE KIND TO THEM, YOU INSULT YOUR CREATOR.

IF YOU ARE KIND TO THEM, YOU SHOW HIM RESPECT.

IF YOU ARE KIND TO THEM, YOU SHOW HIM RESPECT.

>> MEANWHILE, RELIGIOUS SHOW HIM RESPECT.

>> MEANWHILE, RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVES RALLIED IN >> MEANWHILE, RELIGIOUS CONSERVATIVES RALLIED IN WASHINGTON AT THE ANNUAL VALUES CONSERVATIVES RALLIED IN WASHINGTON AT THE ANNUAL VALUES VOTERS SUMMIT.

WASHINGTON AT THE ANNUAL VALUES VOTERS SUMMIT.

ACTIVISTS REAFFIRMED THEIR VOTERS SUMMIT.

ACTIVISTS REAFFIRMED THEIR SUPPORT FOR FEDERAL BUDGET CUTS ACTIVISTS REAFFIRMED THEIR SUPPORT FOR FEDERAL BUDGET CUTS AND THEIR OPPOSITION TO THE SUPPORT FOR FEDERAL BUDGET CUTS AND THEIR OPPOSITION TO THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

AND THEIR OPPOSITION TO THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

THE GROUP HEARD FROM SEVERAL AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

THE GROUP HEARD FROM SEVERAL REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS THE GROUP HEARD FROM SEVERAL REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO HAD BEEN LEADING THE FIGHT REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO HAD BEEN LEADING THE FIGHT AGAINST OBAMA CARE.

WHO HAD BEEN LEADING THE FIGHT AGAINST OBAMA CARE.

>> AND I WOULD SUGGEST A MODEL AGAINST OBAMA CARE.

>> AND I WOULD SUGGEST A MODEL FOR HOW WE TURN THIS COUNTRY >> AND I WOULD SUGGEST A MODEL FOR HOW WE TURN THIS COUNTRY AROUND IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF FOR HOW WE TURN THIS COUNTRY AROUND IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

AROUND IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

AND IT IS A MODEL THAT WE HAVE YEARS.

AND IT IS A MODEL THAT WE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING TOGETHER FOR THE AND IT IS A MODEL THAT WE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING TOGETHER FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, TO STOP BEEN FOLLOWING TOGETHER FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, TO STOP THAT TRAIN WRECK, THAT DISASTER, LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, TO STOP THAT TRAIN WRECK, THAT DISASTER, THAT NIGHTMARE THAT IS OBAMA THAT TRAIN WRECK, THAT DISASTER, THAT NIGHTMARE THAT IS OBAMA CARE.

THAT NIGHTMARE THAT IS OBAMA CARE.

>> THIS YEAR'S NOBEL PEACE PRIZE CARE.

>> THIS YEAR'S NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WAS AWARDED FOR THE ORGANIZATION >> THIS YEAR'S NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WAS AWARDED FOR THE ORGANIZATION FOR THE PROHIBITION OF CHEMICAL WAS AWARDED FOR THE ORGANIZATION FOR THE PROHIBITION OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

FOR THE PROHIBITION OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

IT WAS FORMED IN 1997 TO ENFORCE WEAPONS.

IT WAS FORMED IN 1997 TO ENFORCE INTERNATIONAL TREATIES AGAINST IT WAS FORMED IN 1997 TO ENFORCE INTERNATIONAL TREATIES AGAINST THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

INTERNATIONAL TREATIES AGAINST THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

THE NOBEL COMMITTEE SAID RECENT THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

THE NOBEL COMMITTEE SAID RECENT EVENTS IN SYRIA HAVE UNDERLINED THE NOBEL COMMITTEE SAID RECENT EVENTS IN SYRIA HAVE UNDERLINED THE NEED TO ENHANCE THE EFFORTS EVENTS IN SYRIA HAVE UNDERLINED THE NEED TO ENHANCE THE EFFORTS TO DO AWAY WITH SUCH WEAPONS.

THE NEED TO ENHANCE THE EFFORTS TO DO AWAY WITH SUCH WEAPONS.

>>> MUSLIMS FROM AROUND THE TO DO AWAY WITH SUCH WEAPONS.

>>> MUSLIMS FROM AROUND THE WORLD ARE GATHERING IN MECCA FOR >>> MUSLIMS FROM AROUND THE WORLD ARE GATHERING IN MECCA FOR THE ANNUAL HAJJ OR PILGRIMAGE.

WORLD ARE GATHERING IN MECCA FOR THE ANNUAL HAJJ OR PILGRIMAGE.

AROUND 3 MILLION ARE EXPECTED THE ANNUAL HAJJ OR PILGRIMAGE.

AROUND 3 MILLION ARE EXPECTED INCLUDING MORE THAN 14,000 AROUND 3 MILLION ARE EXPECTED INCLUDING MORE THAN 14,000 AMERICANS.

INCLUDING MORE THAN 14,000 AMERICANS.

WHILE DISEASES SPREAD BY AMERICANS.

WHILE DISEASES SPREAD BY TRAVELERS ARE ALWAYS A CHALLENGE WHILE DISEASES SPREAD BY TRAVELERS ARE ALWAYS A CHALLENGE DURING THE HAJJ, THIS YEAR TRAVELERS ARE ALWAYS A CHALLENGE DURING THE HAJJ, THIS YEAR HEALTH OFFICIALS ARE ESPECIALLY DURING THE HAJJ, THIS YEAR HEALTH OFFICIALS ARE ESPECIALLY CONCERNED ABOUT A DEADLY VIRUS HEALTH OFFICIALS ARE ESPECIALLY CONCERNED ABOUT A DEADLY VIRUS CALLED THE MIDDLE EAST CONCERNED ABOUT A DEADLY VIRUS CALLED THE MIDDLE EAST RESPIRATORY SYNDROME OR MERS.

CALLED THE MIDDLE EAST RESPIRATORY SYNDROME OR MERS.

THE VIRUS HAS KILLED DOZENS OF RESPIRATORY SYNDROME OR MERS.

THE VIRUS HAS KILLED DOZENS OF PEOPLE IN SAUDI ARABIA.

THE VIRUS HAS KILLED DOZENS OF PEOPLE IN SAUDI ARABIA.

SAUDI OFFICIALS ARE PROVIDING PEOPLE IN SAUDI ARABIA.

SAUDI OFFICIALS ARE PROVIDING VACCINATIONS.

SAUDI OFFICIALS ARE PROVIDING VACCINATIONS.

AMERICAN PILGRIMS ARE BEING VACCINATIONS.

AMERICAN PILGRIMS ARE BEING URGED TO TAKE EXTRA PRECAUTIONS.

AMERICAN PILGRIMS ARE BEING URGED TO TAKE EXTRA PRECAUTIONS.

>>> LEADERS OF THE U.S. CATHOLIC URGED TO TAKE EXTRA PRECAUTIONS.

>>> LEADERS OF THE U.S. CATHOLIC BISHOPS MET WITH POPE FRANCIS AT >>> LEADERS OF THE U.S. CATHOLIC BISHOPS MET WITH POPE FRANCIS AT THE VATICAN THIS WEEK.

BISHOPS MET WITH POPE FRANCIS AT THE VATICAN THIS WEEK.

NEW YORK CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN THE VATICAN THIS WEEK.

NEW YORK CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN WHO'S PRESIDENT OF THE BISHOPS NEW YORK CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN WHO'S PRESIDENT OF THE BISHOPS CONFERENCE DESCRIBED IT AS A WHO'S PRESIDENT OF THE BISHOPS CONFERENCE DESCRIBED IT AS A MEETING OF BROTHERS.

CONFERENCE DESCRIBED IT AS A MEETING OF BROTHERS.

DOLAN SAID THE POPE WAS CURIOUS MEETING OF BROTHERS.

DOLAN SAID THE POPE WAS CURIOUS ABOUT ISSUES FACING THE AMERICAN DOLAN SAID THE POPE WAS CURIOUS ABOUT ISSUES FACING THE AMERICAN CHURCH INCLUDING THE PLIGHT OF ABOUT ISSUES FACING THE AMERICAN CHURCH INCLUDING THE PLIGHT OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

CHURCH INCLUDING THE PLIGHT OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

>>> ONE OF THE TOP LEADERS OF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

>>> ONE OF THE TOP LEADERS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF >>> ONE OF THE TOP LEADERS OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, THE MORMONS, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, THE MORMONS, HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THERE HAVE LATTER DAY SAINTS, THE MORMONS, HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHEN CHURCH LEADERS HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHEN CHURCH LEADERS AND MEMBERS HAVE MADE MISTAKES.

BEEN TIMES WHEN CHURCH LEADERS AND MEMBERS HAVE MADE MISTAKES.

THE PRESIDENT TOLD A GATHERING AND MEMBERS HAVE MADE MISTAKES.

THE PRESIDENT TOLD A GATHERING LAST WEEK THAT SOME MORMON THE PRESIDENT TOLD A GATHERING LAST WEEK THAT SOME MORMON LEADERS HAVE SAID AND DONE LAST WEEK THAT SOME MORMON LEADERS HAVE SAID AND DONE THINGS THAT WERE NOT IN HARMONY LEADERS HAVE SAID AND DONE THINGS THAT WERE NOT IN HARMONY WITH THE CHURCH'S PRINCIPLES OR THINGS THAT WERE NOT IN HARMONY WITH THE CHURCH'S PRINCIPLES OR VALUES OR DDOCTRINE.

WITH THE CHURCH'S PRINCIPLES OR VALUES OR DDOCTRINE.

HE DIDN'T SPECIFY WHAT THEY VALUES OR DDOCTRINE.

HE DIDN'T SPECIFY WHAT THEY WERE.

HE DIDN'T SPECIFY WHAT THEY WERE.

SOME ANALYSTS SAID IT SIGNIFIED WERE.

SOME ANALYSTS SAID IT SIGNIFIED A CHANGE IN TONE FROM A CHURCH SOME ANALYSTS SAID IT SIGNIFIED A CHANGE IN TONE FROM A CHURCH THAT'S CLAMPED DOWN ON A CHANGE IN TONE FROM A CHURCH THAT'S CLAMPED DOWN ON DISSENTERS.

THAT'S CLAMPED DOWN ON DISSENTERS.

>>> NOW, A SPECIAL REPORT FROM DISSENTERS.

>>> NOW, A SPECIAL REPORT FROM LUCKY SEVERSON ON THE DEBATE >>> NOW, A SPECIAL REPORT FROM LUCKY SEVERSON ON THE DEBATE OVER SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR LUCKY SEVERSON ON THE DEBATE OVER SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR MANY PRISONERS.

OVER SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR MANY PRISONERS.

SOMETIMES OR THE DECADES.

MANY PRISONERS.

SOMETIMES OR THE DECADES.

IS THAT MORALLY WRONG, NECESSARY SOMETIMES OR THE DECADES.

IS THAT MORALLY WRONG, NECESSARY TO PROTECT OTHERS OR SOMETHING IS THAT MORALLY WRONG, NECESSARY TO PROTECT OTHERS OR SOMETHING IN BETWEEN?

TO PROTECT OTHERS OR SOMETHING IN BETWEEN?

>> ON ANY GIVEN DAY IT'S IN BETWEEN?

>> ON ANY GIVEN DAY IT'S ESTIMATED THERE ARE 80,000 >> ON ANY GIVEN DAY IT'S ESTIMATED THERE ARE 80,000 AMERICANS LOCKED IN A SMALL CELL ESTIMATED THERE ARE 80,000 AMERICANS LOCKED IN A SMALL CELL FOR 24 HOURS OR MORE PER DAY.

AMERICANS LOCKED IN A SMALL CELL FOR 24 HOURS OR MORE PER DAY.

IT'S KNOWN AS SOLITARY FOR 24 HOURS OR MORE PER DAY.

IT'S KNOWN AS SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

IT'S KNOWN AS SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

SOMETIMES CALLED SEGREGATION, CONFINEMENT.

SOMETIMES CALLED SEGREGATION, RESTRICTED HOUSING OR IF YOU'RE SOMETIMES CALLED SEGREGATION, RESTRICTED HOUSING OR IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE INMATES FLAT TIME OR RESTRICTED HOUSING OR IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE INMATES FLAT TIME OR THE HOLE.

ONE OF THE INMATES FLAT TIME OR THE HOLE.

>> YOU CAN IMAGINE YOURSELF THE HOLE.

>> YOU CAN IMAGINE YOURSELF LOCKED IN A CLOSET.

>> YOU CAN IMAGINE YOURSELF LOCKED IN A CLOSET.

>> HEATHER RICE-MINUS IS WITH LOCKED IN A CLOSET.

>> HEATHER RICE-MINUS IS WITH THE PRISON FELLOWSHIP >> HEATHER RICE-MINUS IS WITH THE PRISON FELLOWSHIP MINISTRIES.

THE PRISON FELLOWSHIP MINISTRIES.

IT TAKES A POSITION AS DO OTHER MINISTRIES.

IT TAKES A POSITION AS DO OTHER RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS THAT IT TAKES A POSITION AS DO OTHER RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS THAT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS AN RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS THAT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS AN UNCHRISTIAN PRACTICE.

SOLITARY CONFINEMENT IS AN UNCHRISTIAN PRACTICE.

RESEARCHERS HAVE FOUND IT OFTEN UNCHRISTIAN PRACTICE.

RESEARCHERS HAVE FOUND IT OFTEN DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

RESEARCHERS HAVE FOUND IT OFTEN DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

>> MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

>> MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY WORKED WITH WHO WERE HELD IN >> MANY OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY WORKED WITH WHO WERE HELD IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EXPERIENCED WORKED WITH WHO WERE HELD IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EXPERIENCED PARANOIA.

SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EXPERIENCED PARANOIA.

HALLUCINATIONS, DEPRESSION.

PARANOIA.

HALLUCINATIONS, DEPRESSION.

SOME REACTED EVENTUALLY WITH HALLUCINATIONS, DEPRESSION.

SOME REACTED EVENTUALLY WITH VIOLENT, UNCONTROLLABLE ANGER.

SOME REACTED EVENTUALLY WITH VIOLENT, UNCONTROLLABLE ANGER.

>> BOBBY DELALO KNOWS WHAT IT VIOLENT, UNCONTROLLABLE ANGER.

>> BOBBY DELALO KNOWS WHAT IT WAS LIKE.

>> BOBBY DELALO KNOWS WHAT IT WAS LIKE.

HE WAS IN SOLITARY FOR FIVE WAS LIKE.

HE WAS IN SOLITARY FOR FIVE YEAR.

HE WAS IN SOLITARY FOR FIVE YEAR.

>> YOU GO CRAZY.

YEAR.

>> YOU GO CRAZY.

YOU HEAR GUYS SAYING YEAH, WHAT?

>> YOU GO CRAZY.

YOU HEAR GUYS SAYING YEAH, WHAT?

THE VENTILATOR CALLED HIS NAME.

YOU HEAR GUYS SAYING YEAH, WHAT?

THE VENTILATOR CALLED HIS NAME.

A THING THAT REALLY SCARED ME IN THE VENTILATOR CALLED HIS NAME.

A THING THAT REALLY SCARED ME IN THERE IS I WAS WATCHING MY A THING THAT REALLY SCARED ME IN THERE IS I WAS WATCHING MY HUMANITY AND COMPASSION SLIPPING THERE IS I WAS WATCHING MY HUMANITY AND COMPASSION SLIPPING OUT OF MY GRASP.

HUMANITY AND COMPASSION SLIPPING OUT OF MY GRASP.

>> JOHN RUSSER IS CHAIRMAN OF OUT OF MY GRASP.

>> JOHN RUSSER IS CHAIRMAN OF THE WASHINGTON, D.C. CORRECTIONS >> JOHN RUSSER IS CHAIRMAN OF THE WASHINGTON, D.C. CORRECTIONS OFFICERS UNION.

THE WASHINGTON, D.C. CORRECTIONS OFFICERS UNION.

HE THINKS AS DO MANY PRISON OFFICERS UNION.

HE THINKS AS DO MANY PRISON GUARDS NATIONWIDE THE SOLITARY HE THINKS AS DO MANY PRISON GUARDS NATIONWIDE THE SOLITARY IS GETTING A BAD RAP.

GUARDS NATIONWIDE THE SOLITARY IS GETTING A BAD RAP.

IT'S NECESSARY TO PRESERVE THE IS GETTING A BAD RAP.

IT'S NECESSARY TO PRESERVE THE SAFETY OF INMATES AND GUARDS IT'S NECESSARY TO PRESERVE THE SAFETY OF INMATES AND GUARDS WITHIN THE PRISON.

SAFETY OF INMATES AND GUARDS WITHIN THE PRISON.

>> I DO NOT SEE HOW YOU COULD WITHIN THE PRISON.

>> I DO NOT SEE HOW YOU COULD RUN A PRISON SYSTEM AT ALL >> I DO NOT SEE HOW YOU COULD RUN A PRISON SYSTEM AT ALL WITHOUT -- WITHOUT SOME TYPE OF RUN A PRISON SYSTEM AT ALL WITHOUT -- WITHOUT SOME TYPE OF SEGREGATION.

WITHOUT -- WITHOUT SOME TYPE OF SEGREGATION.

AND I DON'T PREFER TO USE THE SEGREGATION.

AND I DON'T PREFER TO USE THE TERM SOLITARY -- AND I DON'T PREFER TO USE THE TERM SOLITARY -- >> SOLITARY?

TERM SOLITARY -- >> SOLITARY?

>> SOLITARY, YES.

>> SOLITARY?

>> SOLITARY, YES.

I THINK THAT HAS TOO MANY >> SOLITARY, YES.

I THINK THAT HAS TOO MANY I THINK THAT HAS TOO MANY NEGLIGENT CONNOTATION.

NEGLIGENT CONNOTATION.

>> AND BOBBY DELALO ENDED UP IN NEGLIGENT CONNOTATION.

>> AND BOBBY DELALO ENDED UP IN SOLITARY AFTER TRYING TO ESCAPE.

>> AND BOBBY DELALO ENDED UP IN SOLITARY AFTER TRYING TO ESCAPE.

>> FIVE YEARS AND ONE MONTH FOR SOLITARY AFTER TRYING TO ESCAPE.

>> FIVE YEARS AND ONE MONTH FOR TRYING TO ESCAPE.

>> FIVE YEARS AND ONE MONTH FOR TRYING TO ESCAPE.

I EMBARRASSED THE DEPARTMENT OF TRYING TO ESCAPE.

I EMBARRASSED THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.

I EMBARRASSED THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.

>> WHEN HE GOT OUT OF PRISON HE CORRECTIONS.

>> WHEN HE GOT OUT OF PRISON HE VOLUNTEERED TO WORK WITH THE >> WHEN HE GOT OUT OF PRISON HE VOLUNTEERED TO WORK WITH THE QUAKER PROGRAM FOCUSING ON VOLUNTEERED TO WORK WITH THE QUAKER PROGRAM FOCUSING ON PRISONER'S RIGHTS.

QUAKER PROGRAM FOCUSING ON PRISONER'S RIGHTS.

IRONICALLY IT WAS THE QUAKERS PRISONER'S RIGHTS.

IRONICALLY IT WAS THE QUAKERS WHO FIRST INTRODUCED SOLITARY IRONICALLY IT WAS THE QUAKERS WHO FIRST INTRODUCED SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, THINKING IT WOULD WHO FIRST INTRODUCED SOLITARY CONFINEMENT, THINKING IT WOULD GIVE THE GUILTY SOME TIME BY CONFINEMENT, THINKING IT WOULD GIVE THE GUILTY SOME TIME BY THEMSELVES TO FEEL SORROW FOR GIVE THE GUILTY SOME TIME BY THEMSELVES TO FEEL SORROW FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

THEMSELVES TO FEEL SORROW FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

NOW THE QUAKERS ARE WORKING TO A THEIR ACTIONS.

NOW THE QUAKERS ARE WORKING TO A ABOLISH SOLITARY.

NOW THE QUAKERS ARE WORKING TO A ABOLISH SOLITARY.

CHRISTOPHER EPPS IS TRYING TO DO ABOLISH SOLITARY.

CHRISTOPHER EPPS IS TRYING TO DO HIS PART.

CHRISTOPHER EPPS IS TRYING TO DO HIS PART.

HIS CONVERSION OCCURRED IN 2007.

HIS PART.

HIS CONVERSION OCCURRED IN 2007.

>> IT WAS A REAL BAD YEAR.

HIS CONVERSION OCCURRED IN 2007.

>> IT WAS A REAL BAD YEAR.

WORST YEAR THAT I EVER HAD SINCE >> IT WAS A REAL BAD YEAR.

WORST YEAR THAT I EVER HAD SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN CORRECTIONS WHICH WORST YEAR THAT I EVER HAD SINCE I HAVE BEEN IN CORRECTIONS WHICH IS 32 YEARS.

I HAVE BEEN IN CORRECTIONS WHICH IS 32 YEARS.

>> THE MISSISSIPPI DEPARTMENT OF IS 32 YEARS.

>> THE MISSISSIPPI DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS HAD A SERIOUS >> THE MISSISSIPPI DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS HAD A SERIOUS PROBLEM AT THE STATE'S SUPER MAX CORRECTIONS HAD A SERIOUS PROBLEM AT THE STATE'S SUPER MAX PRISON.

PROBLEM AT THE STATE'S SUPER MAX PRISON.

AN OUTBREAK OF INMATE VIOLENCE, PRISON.

AN OUTBREAK OF INMATE VIOLENCE, STABBINGS, KILLINGS, SUICIDES.

AN OUTBREAK OF INMATE VIOLENCE, STABBINGS, KILLINGS, SUICIDES.

BUT INSTEAD OF PUTTING THE STABBINGS, KILLINGS, SUICIDES.

BUT INSTEAD OF PUTTING THE PRISON ON TOTAL LOCKDOWN WHICH BUT INSTEAD OF PUTTING THE PRISON ON TOTAL LOCKDOWN WHICH IS WHAT USUALLY HAPPEN, THE PRISON ON TOTAL LOCKDOWN WHICH IS WHAT USUALLY HAPPEN, THE CORRECTIONS COMMISSION TOOK A IS WHAT USUALLY HAPPEN, THE CORRECTIONS COMMISSION TOOK A GIANT LEAP.

CORRECTIONS COMMISSION TOOK A GIANT LEAP.

>> THIS WAS A MAJOR DECISION.

GIANT LEAP.

>> THIS WAS A MAJOR DECISION.

I MEAN, TO TAKE INDIVIDUALS THAT >> THIS WAS A MAJOR DECISION.

I MEAN, TO TAKE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAD BEEN LOCKED UP FOR YEARS AND I MEAN, TO TAKE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAD BEEN LOCKED UP FOR YEARS AND TAKE THEM FROM A SINGLE CELL AND HAD BEEN LOCKED UP FOR YEARS AND TAKE THEM FROM A SINGLE CELL AND PUT THEM IN THE GENERAL TAKE THEM FROM A SINGLE CELL AND PUT THEM IN THE GENERAL POPULATION UNIT, IT WAS A MAJOR PUT THEM IN THE GENERAL POPULATION UNIT, IT WAS A MAJOR DECISION.

POPULATION UNIT, IT WAS A MAJOR DECISION.

>> NOT ONE THAT WAS POLITICALLY DECISION.

>> NOT ONE THAT WAS POLITICALLY POPULAR IN AN ELECTION YEAR IN A >> NOT ONE THAT WAS POLITICALLY POPULAR IN AN ELECTION YEAR IN A STATE THAT PRIDES ITSELF AS POPULAR IN AN ELECTION YEAR IN A STATE THAT PRIDES ITSELF AS BEING TOUGH ON CRIMINALS.

STATE THAT PRIDES ITSELF AS BEING TOUGH ON CRIMINALS.

THE COMMISSIONER WHO ONCE LOCKED BEING TOUGH ON CRIMINALS.

THE COMMISSIONER WHO ONCE LOCKED A THOUSAND INMATES IN SOLITARY THE COMMISSIONER WHO ONCE LOCKED A THOUSAND INMATES IN SOLITARY REMOVED 700 TO THE GENERAL A THOUSAND INMATES IN SOLITARY REMOVED 700 TO THE GENERAL PRISON POPULATION, AND VIOLENCE REMOVED 700 TO THE GENERAL PRISON POPULATION, AND VIOLENCE INSIDE THE PRISON WENT DOWN 40%.

PRISON POPULATION, AND VIOLENCE INSIDE THE PRISON WENT DOWN 40%.

>> I HAVE WATCHED INMATES PLACED INSIDE THE PRISON WENT DOWN 40%.

>> I HAVE WATCHED INMATES PLACED IN THE SINGLE CELL AND OVER A >> I HAVE WATCHED INMATES PLACED IN THE SINGLE CELL AND OVER A PERIOD OF TIME I WATCHED THE IN THE SINGLE CELL AND OVER A PERIOD OF TIME I WATCHED THE MENTAL CAPACITY CHANGE SEVERELY.

PERIOD OF TIME I WATCHED THE MENTAL CAPACITY CHANGE SEVERELY.

I THINK THAT IF YOU TREAT THEM MENTAL CAPACITY CHANGE SEVERELY.

I THINK THAT IF YOU TREAT THEM LIKE ANIMALS, THAT'S EXACTLY THE I THINK THAT IF YOU TREAT THEM LIKE ANIMALS, THAT'S EXACTLY THE WAY THEY BEHAVE.

LIKE ANIMALS, THAT'S EXACTLY THE WAY THEY BEHAVE.

>> THE HATE, ANGER AND RAGE WAS WAY THEY BEHAVE.

>> THE HATE, ANGER AND RAGE WAS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL.

>> THE HATE, ANGER AND RAGE WAS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL.

IT'S HARD TO EXPLAIN TO YOU, BUT TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL.

IT'S HARD TO EXPLAIN TO YOU, BUT CUTTING GUYS' HEADS OFF IN MY IT'S HARD TO EXPLAIN TO YOU, BUT CUTTING GUYS' HEADS OFF IN MY MIND AND ROLLING THEM DOWN THE CUTTING GUYS' HEADS OFF IN MY MIND AND ROLLING THEM DOWN THE CORRIDOR.

MIND AND ROLLING THEM DOWN THE CORRIDOR.

THAT WAS RELIEVING TO ME.

CORRIDOR.

THAT WAS RELIEVING TO ME.

>> BUT MANY CORRECTIONS OFFICERS THAT WAS RELIEVING TO ME.

>> BUT MANY CORRECTIONS OFFICERS SAY THAT'S PRECISELY WHY YOU >> BUT MANY CORRECTIONS OFFICERS SAY THAT'S PRECISELY WHY YOU NEED SOLITARY -- TO HOUSE THE SAY THAT'S PRECISELY WHY YOU NEED SOLITARY -- TO HOUSE THE REALLY BAD GUYS, THE RAPISTS, NEED SOLITARY -- TO HOUSE THE REALLY BAD GUYS, THE RAPISTS, ASSAULTERS AND CRAZIES.

REALLY BAD GUYS, THE RAPISTS, ASSAULTERS AND CRAZIES.

>> IF YOU WORK IN SOLITARY, THE ASSAULTERS AND CRAZIES.

>> IF YOU WORK IN SOLITARY, THE CHANCES OF YOU BEING ASSAULTED, >> IF YOU WORK IN SOLITARY, THE CHANCES OF YOU BEING ASSAULTED, THE CHANCES OF HAVING BODILY CHANCES OF YOU BEING ASSAULTED, THE CHANCES OF HAVING BODILY FLUIDS THROWN ON YOU, I MEAN, THE CHANCES OF HAVING BODILY FLUIDS THROWN ON YOU, I MEAN, YOU ARE IN THERE IN A VERY, VERY FLUIDS THROWN ON YOU, I MEAN, YOU ARE IN THERE IN A VERY, VERY VOLATILE SITUATION.

YOU ARE IN THERE IN A VERY, VERY VOLATILE SITUATION.

>> THE TOP REASONS FOR PLACING VOLATILE SITUATION.

>> THE TOP REASONS FOR PLACING SOMEONE WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE >> THE TOP REASONS FOR PLACING SOMEONE WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE RECORDS OF DISCIPLINE INFRACTION SOMEONE WHEN THEY LOOK AT THE RECORDS OF DISCIPLINE INFRACTION OF WHY THE PERSON WENT THERE ARE RECORDS OF DISCIPLINE INFRACTION OF WHY THE PERSON WENT THERE ARE NOT BECAUSE OF SIGNIFICANT OF WHY THE PERSON WENT THERE ARE NOT BECAUSE OF SIGNIFICANT SAFETY RISKS, BUT ARE REFUSING NOT BECAUSE OF SIGNIFICANT SAFETY RISKS, BUT ARE REFUSING AN ORDER.

SAFETY RISKS, BUT ARE REFUSING AN ORDER.

BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE AN ORDER.

BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

JUST MINOR RULE VIOLATIONS.

WRONG TIME.

JUST MINOR RULE VIOLATIONS.

BEING A NUISANCE.

JUST MINOR RULE VIOLATIONS.

BEING A NUISANCE.

>> WHAT ALL SIDES AGREE ON, BEING A NUISANCE.

>> WHAT ALL SIDES AGREE ON, THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE IN >> WHAT ALL SIDES AGREE ON, THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE IN PRISON WHO ARE MENTALLY ILL WHO THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE IN PRISON WHO ARE MENTALLY ILL WHO NEED HELP AND THAT'S ESPECIALLY PRISON WHO ARE MENTALLY ILL WHO NEED HELP AND THAT'S ESPECIALLY TRUE IN SOLITARY.

NEED HELP AND THAT'S ESPECIALLY TRUE IN SOLITARY.

>> I GUARANTEE YOU THAT THE TRUE IN SOLITARY.

>> I GUARANTEE YOU THAT THE DISTRICT'S JAIL IS THE LARGEST >> I GUARANTEE YOU THAT THE DISTRICT'S JAIL IS THE LARGEST MENTAL HEALTH PROVIDER IN THE DISTRICT'S JAIL IS THE LARGEST MENTAL HEALTH PROVIDER IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

MENTAL HEALTH PROVIDER IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

I GUARANTEE YOU.

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA.

I GUARANTEE YOU.

>> FOR THOSE IN SOLITARY THE I GUARANTEE YOU.

>> FOR THOSE IN SOLITARY THE QUESTION IS, ARE THEY PUT THERE >> FOR THOSE IN SOLITARY THE QUESTION IS, ARE THEY PUT THERE BECAUSE THEY'RE MENTALLY OR DOES QUESTION IS, ARE THEY PUT THERE BECAUSE THEY'RE MENTALLY OR DOES SOLITARY CAUSE MENTAL ILLNESS?

BECAUSE THEY'RE MENTALLY OR DOES SOLITARY CAUSE MENTAL ILLNESS?

>> IN TODAY'S WORLD, WE'RE SOLITARY CAUSE MENTAL ILLNESS?

>> IN TODAY'S WORLD, WE'RE GETTING SO MANY MENTAL HEALTH >> IN TODAY'S WORLD, WE'RE GETTING SO MANY MENTAL HEALTH PEOPLE WALKING THROUGH THE DOOR GETTING SO MANY MENTAL HEALTH PEOPLE WALKING THROUGH THE DOOR THAT IN SOME CASES IT'S PEOPLE WALKING THROUGH THE DOOR THAT IN SOME CASES IT'S PROTECTIVE CUSTODY AND IN SOME THAT IN SOME CASES IT'S PROTECTIVE CUSTODY AND IN SOME CASES THEY'RE OUT IN THE GENERAL PROTECTIVE CUSTODY AND IN SOME CASES THEY'RE OUT IN THE GENERAL POPULATION AND ACTING OUT AND CASES THEY'RE OUT IN THE GENERAL POPULATION AND ACTING OUT AND IT'S CAUSING PROBLEMS.

POPULATION AND ACTING OUT AND IT'S CAUSING PROBLEMS.

>> THEY'RE LOCKING PEOPLE UP IN IT'S CAUSING PROBLEMS.

>> THEY'RE LOCKING PEOPLE UP IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT TO PREVENT >> THEY'RE LOCKING PEOPLE UP IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT TO PREVENT THIS VIOLENT BEHAVIOR, IN FACT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT TO PREVENT THIS VIOLENT BEHAVIOR, IN FACT IT MAY INSTIGATE BECAUSE OF THE THIS VIOLENT BEHAVIOR, IN FACT IT MAY INSTIGATE BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT ON THEIR MENTAL HEALTH.

IT MAY INSTIGATE BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT ON THEIR MENTAL HEALTH.

YOU KNOW, EVEN MORE VIOLENT IMPACT ON THEIR MENTAL HEALTH.

YOU KNOW, EVEN MORE VIOLENT BEHAVIOR.

YOU KNOW, EVEN MORE VIOLENT BEHAVIOR.

>> ANTI-SOLITARY ACTIVISTS SAY BEHAVIOR.

>> ANTI-SOLITARY ACTIVISTS SAY IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR PRISONS TO >> ANTI-SOLITARY ACTIVISTS SAY IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR PRISONS TO RELEASE AN INMATE DIRECTLY FROM IT'S NOT UNCOMMON FOR PRISONS TO RELEASE AN INMATE DIRECTLY FROM SOLITARY INTO THE COMMUNITY.

RELEASE AN INMATE DIRECTLY FROM SOLITARY INTO THE COMMUNITY.

A STUDY IN WASHINGTON STATE SOLITARY INTO THE COMMUNITY.

A STUDY IN WASHINGTON STATE SHOWED THOSE INMATES ARE FAR A STUDY IN WASHINGTON STATE SHOWED THOSE INMATES ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO COMMIT MORE SHOWED THOSE INMATES ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO COMMIT MORE CRIMES.

MORE LIKELY TO COMMIT MORE CRIMES.

>> THERE IS A PERCEPTION THAT CRIMES.

>> THERE IS A PERCEPTION THAT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EQUALS >> THERE IS A PERCEPTION THAT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EQUALS SAFETY, WHEREAS I WOULD ARGUE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EQUALS SAFETY, WHEREAS I WOULD ARGUE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EQUALS A SAFETY, WHEREAS I WOULD ARGUE SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EQUALS A THREAT TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

SOLITARY CONFINEMENT EQUALS A THREAT TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

>> 97% OF THE PEOPLE IN PRISON THREAT TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

>> 97% OF THE PEOPLE IN PRISON TODAY ARE COMING TO THE STREET.

>> 97% OF THE PEOPLE IN PRISON TODAY ARE COMING TO THE STREET.

THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU TODAY ARE COMING TO THE STREET.

THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU WANT THEM BACK IN THE STREET?

THE REAL QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU WANT THEM BACK IN THE STREET?

BETTER OR WORSE THAN THEY WENT WANT THEM BACK IN THE STREET?

BETTER OR WORSE THAN THEY WENT IN?

BETTER OR WORSE THAN THEY WENT IN?

THEY'RE COMING OUT WORSE.

IN?

THEY'RE COMING OUT WORSE.

>> WHAT'S DRIVING THE EFFORT TO THEY'RE COMING OUT WORSE.

>> WHAT'S DRIVING THE EFFORT TO SERIOUSLY CUT BACK ON SOLITARY >> WHAT'S DRIVING THE EFFORT TO SERIOUSLY CUT BACK ON SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AS MUCH AS ANYTHING SERIOUSLY CUT BACK ON SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AS MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE IS MONEY.

CONFINEMENT AS MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE IS MONEY.

>> IT'S ABOUT $102 A DAY AND A ELSE IS MONEY.

>> IT'S ABOUT $102 A DAY AND A REGULAR INMATE IS ABOUT $41.50 A >> IT'S ABOUT $102 A DAY AND A REGULAR INMATE IS ABOUT $41.50 A DAY.

REGULAR INMATE IS ABOUT $41.50 A DAY.

EVERYTHING FOR THE MOST PART IS DAY.

EVERYTHING FOR THE MOST PART IS ROOM SERVICE.

EVERYTHING FOR THE MOST PART IS ROOM SERVICE.

YOU BRING HIS MEAL TO HIM.

ROOM SERVICE.

YOU BRING HIS MEAL TO HIM.

BRING HIS MEDICATION TO HIM.

YOU BRING HIS MEAL TO HIM.

BRING HIS MEDICATION TO HIM.

>> WE REQUESTED AN INTERVIEW BRING HIS MEDICATION TO HIM.

>> WE REQUESTED AN INTERVIEW WITH OFFICIALS AT THE FEDERAL >> WE REQUESTED AN INTERVIEW WITH OFFICIALS AT THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS WHICH HOUSES WITH OFFICIALS AT THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS WHICH HOUSES OVER 12,000 INMATES IN SOLITARY.

BUREAU OF PRISONS WHICH HOUSES OVER 12,000 INMATES IN SOLITARY.

THEY DECLINED THE INTERVIEW BUT OVER 12,000 INMATES IN SOLITARY.

THEY DECLINED THE INTERVIEW BUT THEY STATED IT PUBLICLY IN A THEY DECLINED THE INTERVIEW BUT THEY STATED IT PUBLICLY IN A SENATE HEARING IN 2012.

THEY STATED IT PUBLICLY IN A SENATE HEARING IN 2012.

THEN THE BUREAU DIRECTOR SAID SENATE HEARING IN 2012.

THEN THE BUREAU DIRECTOR SAID THE USE OF RESTRICTED HOUSING OR THEN THE BUREAU DIRECTOR SAID THE USE OF RESTRICTED HOUSING OR SOLITARY REMAINS A CRITICAL THE USE OF RESTRICTED HOUSING OR SOLITARY REMAINS A CRITICAL MANAGEMENT TOOL.

SOLITARY REMAINS A CRITICAL MANAGEMENT TOOL.

FEW ARGUE THAT SOLITARY SHOULD MANAGEMENT TOOL.

FEW ARGUE THAT SOLITARY SHOULD BE ABOLISHED ALL TOGETHER.

FEW ARGUE THAT SOLITARY SHOULD BE ABOLISHED ALL TOGETHER.

MISSISSIPPI COMMISSIONER EPPS BE ABOLISHED ALL TOGETHER.

MISSISSIPPI COMMISSIONER EPPS STILL HAS 300 INMATES IN MISSISSIPPI COMMISSIONER EPPS STILL HAS 300 INMATES IN SEGREGATION OUT OF OVER 22,000 STILL HAS 300 INMATES IN SEGREGATION OUT OF OVER 22,000 IN STATE PRISONS.

SEGREGATION OUT OF OVER 22,000 IN STATE PRISONS.

HE RECOMMENDS THAT INMATES IN IN STATE PRISONS.

HE RECOMMENDS THAT INMATES IN SOLITARY BE REVIEWED EVERY SEVEN HE RECOMMENDS THAT INMATES IN SOLITARY BE REVIEWED EVERY SEVEN DAYS BY AN IMPARTIAL COMMITTEE.

SOLITARY BE REVIEWED EVERY SEVEN DAYS BY AN IMPARTIAL COMMITTEE.

THE MAN WHO SPENT MORE THAN FIVE DAYS BY AN IMPARTIAL COMMITTEE.

THE MAN WHO SPENT MORE THAN FIVE YEARS OF HIS LIFE IN SOLITARY THE MAN WHO SPENT MORE THAN FIVE YEARS OF HIS LIFE IN SOLITARY AGREES.

YEARS OF HIS LIFE IN SOLITARY AGREES.

>> WHEN YOU'VE GOT AN INDIVIDUAL AGREES.

>> WHEN YOU'VE GOT AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WAS REALLY, YOU KNOW, OUT >> WHEN YOU'VE GOT AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WAS REALLY, YOU KNOW, OUT OF CONTROL, WHERE DO YOU PUT THAT WAS REALLY, YOU KNOW, OUT OF CONTROL, WHERE DO YOU PUT HIM?

OF CONTROL, WHERE DO YOU PUT HIM?

YOU HAVE TO PUT HIM IN THE HIM?

YOU HAVE TO PUT HIM IN THE SEGREGATION UNIT.

YOU HAVE TO PUT HIM IN THE SEGREGATION UNIT.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE SEGREGATION UNIT.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP HIM THERE FOR YEARS AND BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP HIM THERE FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

TO KEEP HIM THERE FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

DON'T JUST PUT HIM IN THERE AND YEARS.

DON'T JUST PUT HIM IN THERE AND WELD THE DOOR SHUT.

DON'T JUST PUT HIM IN THERE AND WELD THE DOOR SHUT.

>> WHEN THE MISSISSIPPI WELD THE DOOR SHUT.

>> WHEN THE MISSISSIPPI COMMISSIONER CLOSED THE STATE'S >> WHEN THE MISSISSIPPI COMMISSIONER CLOSED THE STATE'S SUPER MAX SEGREGATION UNIT, IT COMMISSIONER CLOSED THE STATE'S SUPER MAX SEGREGATION UNIT, IT SAVED THE STATE NEARLY SUPER MAX SEGREGATION UNIT, IT SAVED THE STATE NEARLY $6 MILLION ANNUALLY.

SAVED THE STATE NEARLY $6 MILLION ANNUALLY.

THAT'S ONE REASON COMMISSIONER $6 MILLION ANNUALLY.

THAT'S ONE REASON COMMISSIONER EPPS WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE THAT'S ONE REASON COMMISSIONER EPPS WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN CORRECTIONAL EPPS WHO IS PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN CORRECTIONAL ASSOCIATION HAS BECOME A PIED AMERICAN CORRECTIONAL ASSOCIATION HAS BECOME A PIED PIPER AGAINST SOLITARY ASSOCIATION HAS BECOME A PIED PIPER AGAINST SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AS HE TRAVELS AROUND PIPER AGAINST SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AS HE TRAVELS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

CONFINEMENT AS HE TRAVELS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

>> WITHOUT THAT, STOP TALKING THE COUNTRY.

>> WITHOUT THAT, STOP TALKING ABOUT THE CRIME, WE GET SMART ON >> WITHOUT THAT, STOP TALKING ABOUT THE CRIME, WE GET SMART ON CRIME.

ABOUT THE CRIME, WE GET SMART ON CRIME.

SO YOU AND OUR TAX DOLLARS CAN CRIME.

SO YOU AND OUR TAX DOLLARS CAN BE SPENT THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO SO YOU AND OUR TAX DOLLARS CAN BE SPENT THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE SPENT AND STILL TRYING -- BE SPENT THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE SPENT AND STILL TRYING -- INSTEAD OF TRYING TO IMPRESS BE SPENT AND STILL TRYING -- INSTEAD OF TRYING TO IMPRESS SOMEONE.

INSTEAD OF TRYING TO IMPRESS SOMEONE.

>> FOR "RELIGION AND ETHICS SOMEONE.

>> FOR "RELIGION AND ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY," I'M LUCKY SEVERSON >> FOR "RELIGION AND ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY," I'M LUCKY SEVERSON IN JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI.

>>> WE HAVE A PROFILE TODAY BY >>> WE HAVE A PROFILE TODAY BY BOB FAW ON THE ENORMOUSLY >>> WE HAVE A PROFILE TODAY BY BOB FAW ON THE ENORMOUSLY SUCCESSFUL CRIME NOVELIST JAMES BOB FAW ON THE ENORMOUSLY SUCCESSFUL CRIME NOVELIST JAMES LEE BURKE.

SUCCESSFUL CRIME NOVELIST JAMES LEE BURKE.

HIS CHARACTERS REVEAL THE WORST LEE BURKE.

HIS CHARACTERS REVEAL THE WORST OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR, BUT HIS HIS CHARACTERS REVEAL THE WORST OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR, BUT HIS THEMES ARE CLASSIC AND SOMETIMES OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR, BUT HIS THEMES ARE CLASSIC AND SOMETIMES BIBLICAL.

THEMES ARE CLASSIC AND SOMETIMES BIBLICAL.

THE MYSTERY OF EVIL.

BIBLICAL.

THE MYSTERY OF EVIL.

THE STRUGGLE FOR SALVATION.

THE MYSTERY OF EVIL.

THE STRUGGLE FOR SALVATION.

>> JAMES LEE BURKE NOW 76 NOT THE STRUGGLE FOR SALVATION.

>> JAMES LEE BURKE NOW 76 NOT ONLY POUNDS A SPEED BAG NEARLY >> JAMES LEE BURKE NOW 76 NOT ONLY POUNDS A SPEED BAG NEARLY AN HOUR EVERY DAY, HE ALSO STILL ONLY POUNDS A SPEED BAG NEARLY AN HOUR EVERY DAY, HE ALSO STILL WRITES FEVERISHLY EVERY DAY.

AN HOUR EVERY DAY, HE ALSO STILL WRITES FEVERISHLY EVERY DAY.

TURNING OUT NOVELS WHICH HAVE WRITES FEVERISHLY EVERY DAY.

TURNING OUT NOVELS WHICH HAVE SOLD MORE THAN 10 MILLION TURNING OUT NOVELS WHICH HAVE SOLD MORE THAN 10 MILLION COPIES.

SOLD MORE THAN 10 MILLION COPIES.

BURKE'S CRIME STORIES ARE MODERN COPIES.

BURKE'S CRIME STORIES ARE MODERN MORALITY PLAYS ABOUT A WORLD BURKE'S CRIME STORIES ARE MODERN MORALITY PLAYS ABOUT A WORLD WHICH IS IN HIS WORDS MORALITY PLAYS ABOUT A WORLD WHICH IS IN HIS WORDS INTRANSGENT AND CORRUPT, WHERE WHICH IS IN HIS WORDS INTRANSGENT AND CORRUPT, WHERE RUST DESTROY AND THIEVES BREAK INTRANSGENT AND CORRUPT, WHERE RUST DESTROY AND THIEVES BREAK IN AND STEAL.

RUST DESTROY AND THIEVES BREAK IN AND STEAL.

>> I WRITE ABOUT THE WORLD I IN AND STEAL.

>> I WRITE ABOUT THE WORLD I KNOW, AND I TRY TO WRITE IT IN >> I WRITE ABOUT THE WORLD I KNOW, AND I TRY TO WRITE IT IN AN ACCURATE FASHION.

KNOW, AND I TRY TO WRITE IT IN AN ACCURATE FASHION.

>> BURKE HAS BEEN CALLED AN ACCURATE FASHION.

>> BURKE HAS BEEN CALLED AMERICA'S BEST NOVELIST, BUT >> BURKE HAS BEEN CALLED AMERICA'S BEST NOVELIST, BUT SUCCESS DIDN'T COME EASY.

AMERICA'S BEST NOVELIST, BUT SUCCESS DIDN'T COME EASY.

ONE OF HIS EARLY BOOKS WAS SUCCESS DIDN'T COME EASY.

ONE OF HIS EARLY BOOKS WAS PASSED AROUND TWO PUBLISHERS FOR ONE OF HIS EARLY BOOKS WAS PASSED AROUND TWO PUBLISHERS FOR NINE YEARS.

PASSED AROUND TWO PUBLISHERS FOR NINE YEARS.

>> IT WAS REJECTED BY 111 NINE YEARS.

>> IT WAS REJECTED BY 111 EDITORS.

>> IT WAS REJECTED BY 111 EDITORS.

AND IT'S A RECORD IN NEW YORK.

EDITORS.

AND IT'S A RECORD IN NEW YORK.

THIS IS THE MOST REJECTED BOOK AND IT'S A RECORD IN NEW YORK.

THIS IS THE MOST REJECTED BOOK IN THE HISTORY OF PUBLISHING.

THIS IS THE MOST REJECTED BOOK IN THE HISTORY OF PUBLISHING.

EVERYONE SAYS THAT.

IN THE HISTORY OF PUBLISHING.

EVERYONE SAYS THAT.

>> ONCE PUBLISHED IT WAS EVERYONE SAYS THAT.

>> ONCE PUBLISHED IT WAS NOMINATED FOR THE PULITZER >> ONCE PUBLISHED IT WAS NOMINATED FOR THE PULITZER PRIZE.

NOMINATED FOR THE PULITZER PRIZE.

UNTIL HE TOOK JOBS AS A SURVEYOR PRIZE.

UNTIL HE TOOK JOBS AS A SURVEYOR AND EVEN A SOCIAL WORKER ON SKID UNTIL HE TOOK JOBS AS A SURVEYOR AND EVEN A SOCIAL WORKER ON SKID ROW.

AND EVEN A SOCIAL WORKER ON SKID ROW.

>> IT'S A VANITY, IT'S A ROW.

>> IT'S A VANITY, IT'S A CONCEIT.

>> IT'S A VANITY, IT'S A CONCEIT.

EVERY ARTIST HAS THIS NOTION CONCEIT.

EVERY ARTIST HAS THIS NOTION THAT HE SEES THE TRUTH ABOUT THE EVERY ARTIST HAS THIS NOTION THAT HE SEES THE TRUTH ABOUT THE WORLD IN AN EXQUISITE, PERFECT THAT HE SEES THE TRUTH ABOUT THE WORLD IN AN EXQUISITE, PERFECT FASHION.

WORLD IN AN EXQUISITE, PERFECT FASHION.

AND HE'S COMPELLED TO TELL FASHION.

AND HE'S COMPELLED TO TELL OTHERS OF HIS VISION.

AND HE'S COMPELLED TO TELL OTHERS OF HIS VISION.

HE WILL HAVE NO PEACE UNTIL HE OTHERS OF HIS VISION.

HE WILL HAVE NO PEACE UNTIL HE DOES SO.

HE WILL HAVE NO PEACE UNTIL HE DOES SO.

THAT'S THE COMPULSION.

DOES SO.

THAT'S THE COMPULSION.

>> AFTER ALL THAT TIME IN THE THAT'S THE COMPULSION.

>> AFTER ALL THAT TIME IN THE LITERARY WILDERNESS, BURKE >> AFTER ALL THAT TIME IN THE LITERARY WILDERNESS, BURKE STRUCK PAY DIRT, CREATING LITERARY WILDERNESS, BURKE STRUCK PAY DIRT, CREATING LOUISIANA DETECTIVE DAVE STRUCK PAY DIRT, CREATING LOUISIANA DETECTIVE DAVE ROBICHEAUX, WHO LIKE BURKE IS A LOUISIANA DETECTIVE DAVE ROBICHEAUX, WHO LIKE BURKE IS A RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC AND IS ROBICHEAUX, WHO LIKE BURKE IS A RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC AND IS PORTRAYED HERE BY ALEC BALDWIN.

RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC AND IS PORTRAYED HERE BY ALEC BALDWIN.

>> I WANT TO DRINK ALL THE TIME.

PORTRAYED HERE BY ALEC BALDWIN.

>> I WANT TO DRINK ALL THE TIME.

ALL THOSE COLORED BOTTLES.

>> I WANT TO DRINK ALL THE TIME.

ALL THOSE COLORED BOTTLES.

>> THE SUBJECT NOW OF TWO MOTION ALL THOSE COLORED BOTTLES.

>> THE SUBJECT NOW OF TWO MOTION PICTURES AND 20 NOVELS, >> THE SUBJECT NOW OF TWO MOTION PICTURES AND 20 NOVELS, ROBICHEAUX TORMENTED BY PICTURES AND 20 NOVELS, ROBICHEAUX TORMENTED BY ALCOHOLISM AND DEPRESSION, IS A ROBICHEAUX TORMENTED BY ALCOHOLISM AND DEPRESSION, IS A TWO-FISTED ST. AUGUSTINE QUOTING ALCOHOLISM AND DEPRESSION, IS A TWO-FISTED ST. AUGUSTINE QUOTING LAWMAN WHO PATROLS THE TWO-FISTED ST. AUGUSTINE QUOTING LAWMAN WHO PATROLS THE DEMIMONDE, DAMAGED BUT FOLLOWING LAWMAN WHO PATROLS THE DEMIMONDE, DAMAGED BUT FOLLOWING THE UNERRING COMPASS.

DEMIMONDE, DAMAGED BUT FOLLOWING THE UNERRING COMPASS.

>> THIS CHARACTER IS BASED ON THE UNERRING COMPASS.

>> THIS CHARACTER IS BASED ON THE EVERYMAN CHARACTER IN THE >> THIS CHARACTER IS BASED ON THE EVERYMAN CHARACTER IN THE MEDIEVAL MORALITY AND RELIGIOUS THE EVERYMAN CHARACTER IN THE MEDIEVAL MORALITY AND RELIGIOUS DRAMAS.

MEDIEVAL MORALITY AND RELIGIOUS DRAMAS.

BUT ALSO, PRIMARILY I SEE HIS DRAMAS.

BUT ALSO, PRIMARILY I SEE HIS ANTECEDENT AS THE GOOD NIGHT IN BUT ALSO, PRIMARILY I SEE HIS ANTECEDENT AS THE GOOD NIGHT IN CHAUCER'S CANTERBURY'S TALES.

ANTECEDENT AS THE GOOD NIGHT IN CHAUCER'S CANTERBURY'S TALES.

THERE'S A PEACE MAKER IN THE CHAUCER'S CANTERBURY'S TALES.

THERE'S A PEACE MAKER IN THE PILGRIMAGE.

THERE'S A PEACE MAKER IN THE PILGRIMAGE.

>> THAT PILGRIMAGE SAYS BURKE IS PILGRIMAGE.

>> THAT PILGRIMAGE SAYS BURKE IS WHAT DEFINES GOOD LITERATURE.

>> THAT PILGRIMAGE SAYS BURKE IS WHAT DEFINES GOOD LITERATURE.

>> AS FAR AS REDEMPTION IS WHAT DEFINES GOOD LITERATURE.

>> AS FAR AS REDEMPTION IS CONCERNED, I WAS SPEAKING AS AN >> AS FAR AS REDEMPTION IS CONCERNED, I WAS SPEAKING AS AN ARTIST.

CONCERNED, I WAS SPEAKING AS AN ARTIST.

I BELIEVE ALL THE THEMES IN ARTIST.

I BELIEVE ALL THE THEMES IN OCCIDENTAL LITERATURE IS ABOUT I BELIEVE ALL THE THEMES IN OCCIDENTAL LITERATURE IS ABOUT THE SEARCH FOR SALVATION.

OCCIDENTAL LITERATURE IS ABOUT THE SEARCH FOR SALVATION.

IT'S THE BASIC THEME OF WESTERN THE SEARCH FOR SALVATION.

IT'S THE BASIC THEME OF WESTERN LITERATURE.

IT'S THE BASIC THEME OF WESTERN LITERATURE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE ALL END UP LITERATURE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE ALL END UP PAINTING, ACTING OUT IN DRAMAS AND THAT'S WHAT WE ALL END UP PAINTING, ACTING OUT IN DRAMAS OR WRITING ABOUT.

PAINTING, ACTING OUT IN DRAMAS OR WRITING ABOUT.

>> MISSY GETS THE LAST ONE OR WRITING ABOUT.

>> MISSY GETS THE LAST ONE BECAUSE YOU'RE A SLOW POKE.

>> MISSY GETS THE LAST ONE BECAUSE YOU'RE A SLOW POKE.

COME HERE.

BECAUSE YOU'RE A SLOW POKE.

COME HERE.

>> ROBICHEAUX HAS BROUGHT BURKE COME HERE.

>> ROBICHEAUX HAS BROUGHT BURKE FAME AND FORTUNE.

>> ROBICHEAUX HAS BROUGHT BURKE FAME AND FORTUNE.

TWO HORSES ON 120 ACRES, NESTLED FAME AND FORTUNE.

TWO HORSES ON 120 ACRES, NESTLED IN A TOWERING TREE LINED VALLEY TWO HORSES ON 120 ACRES, NESTLED IN A TOWERING TREE LINED VALLEY IN MONTANA WHERE HE LIVES WITH IN A TOWERING TREE LINED VALLEY IN MONTANA WHERE HE LIVES WITH HIS WIFE PEARL AND AN IMPRESSIVE IN MONTANA WHERE HE LIVES WITH HIS WIFE PEARL AND AN IMPRESSIVE FIREARMS COLLECTION HE LOVINGLY HIS WIFE PEARL AND AN IMPRESSIVE FIREARMS COLLECTION HE LOVINGLY MAINTAINS.

FIREARMS COLLECTION HE LOVINGLY MAINTAINS.

>> BOY, A BEAUTIFUL PAIR OF MAINTAINS.

>> BOY, A BEAUTIFUL PAIR OF GUNS.

>> BOY, A BEAUTIFUL PAIR OF GUNS.

PEARL GAVE ME THESE FOR GUNS.

PEARL GAVE ME THESE FOR CHRISTMAS.

PEARL GAVE ME THESE FOR CHRISTMAS.

>> AND STILL HE WRITES.

CHRISTMAS.

>> AND STILL HE WRITES.

1,000 WORDS ON A GOOD DAY.

>> AND STILL HE WRITES.

1,000 WORDS ON A GOOD DAY.

>> IT'S AN INCREMENTAL 1,000 WORDS ON A GOOD DAY.

>> IT'S AN INCREMENTAL DISCOVERY.

>> IT'S AN INCREMENTAL DISCOVERY.

THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.

DISCOVERY.

THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.

THE RIGHT LINE IS THERE.

THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE.

THE RIGHT LINE IS THERE.

YOU HAVE TO WAIT AND YOU'VE GOT THE RIGHT LINE IS THERE.

YOU HAVE TO WAIT AND YOU'VE GOT TO HEAR IT.

YOU HAVE TO WAIT AND YOU'VE GOT TO HEAR IT.

YOU HAVE TO HEAR IT.

TO HEAR IT.

YOU HAVE TO HEAR IT.

IT'S ALL IN THE UNCONSCIOUS.

YOU HAVE TO HEAR IT.

IT'S ALL IN THE UNCONSCIOUS.

YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN TO IT.

IT'S ALL IN THE UNCONSCIOUS.

YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN TO IT.

LISTEN FOR IT.

YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN TO IT.

LISTEN FOR IT.

THERE.

LISTEN FOR IT.

THERE.

>> PATIENTLY COPYING ON THE A THERE.

>> PATIENTLY COPYING ON THE A COMPUTER WORDS HE'S EARLIER >> PATIENTLY COPYING ON THE A COMPUTER WORDS HE'S EARLIER SCRIBBLED INTO ONE OF THE MANY COMPUTER WORDS HE'S EARLIER SCRIBBLED INTO ONE OF THE MANY NOTEBOOKS AT HIS BEDSIDE WHEN HE SCRIBBLED INTO ONE OF THE MANY NOTEBOOKS AT HIS BEDSIDE WHEN HE WRITE SOMETHING DOWN IN THE NOTEBOOKS AT HIS BEDSIDE WHEN HE WRITE SOMETHING DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

WRITE SOMETHING DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

>> AND A PIECE OF DIALOGUE HERE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

>> AND A PIECE OF DIALOGUE HERE THAT I KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW >> AND A PIECE OF DIALOGUE HERE THAT I KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT GOES, BUT IT GOES THAT I KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHERE IT GOES, BUT IT GOES SOMEWHERE IN THE NOVEL.

WHERE IT GOES, BUT IT GOES SOMEWHERE IN THE NOVEL.

>> IN HIS TWO LATEST BOOKS, SOMEWHERE IN THE NOVEL.

>> IN HIS TWO LATEST BOOKS, BURKE DRAWS UPON BOTH HIS ROMAN >> IN HIS TWO LATEST BOOKS, BURKE DRAWS UPON BOTH HIS ROMAN CATHOLIC UPBRINGING AND BURKE DRAWS UPON BOTH HIS ROMAN CATHOLIC UPBRINGING AND EDUCATION IN CLASSICAL CATHOLIC UPBRINGING AND EDUCATION IN CLASSICAL LITERATURE.

EDUCATION IN CLASSICAL LITERATURE.

HIS VOICE SAYS "THE NEW YORK LITERATURE.

HIS VOICE SAYS "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAS GROWN MORE MESSIANIC, HIS VOICE SAYS "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAS GROWN MORE MESSIANIC, MORE BIBLICAL.

TIMES" HAS GROWN MORE MESSIANIC, MORE BIBLICAL.

>> THIS IS FROM ISAIAH, CHAPTER MORE BIBLICAL.

>> THIS IS FROM ISAIAH, CHAPTER 43, VERSE 20.

>> THIS IS FROM ISAIAH, CHAPTER 43, VERSE 20.

THE WILD BEAST WILL HONOR ME.

43, VERSE 20.

THE WILD BEAST WILL HONOR ME.

THE JACKALS AND THE OSTRICHES.

THE WILD BEAST WILL HONOR ME.

THE JACKALS AND THE OSTRICHES.

>> IT'S NOT JUST USING AN THE JACKALS AND THE OSTRICHES.

>> IT'S NOT JUST USING AN INSCRIPTION FROM ISAIAH OR >> IT'S NOT JUST USING AN INSCRIPTION FROM ISAIAH OR LANGUAGE SUFFUSED WITH RELIGIOUS INSCRIPTION FROM ISAIAH OR LANGUAGE SUFFUSED WITH RELIGIOUS IMAGINARY.

LANGUAGE SUFFUSED WITH RELIGIOUS IMAGINARY.

>> THE STORIES I'VE WRITTEN ARE IMAGINARY.

>> THE STORIES I'VE WRITTEN ARE THE PASSION PLAYS.

>> THE STORIES I'VE WRITTEN ARE THE PASSION PLAYS.

THEY COME OUT OF THE NEW THE PASSION PLAYS.

THEY COME OUT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

THEY COME OUT OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.

THE IMAGINARY, THE ICON ALL HAVE TESTAMENT.

THE IMAGINARY, THE ICON ALL HAVE TO DO WITH GOLGOTHA.

THE IMAGINARY, THE ICON ALL HAVE TO DO WITH GOLGOTHA.

>> MAIN TURNERS AND MAJOR MOTION TO DO WITH GOLGOTHA.

>> MAIN TURNERS AND MAJOR MOTION PICTURES YES, BUT WHAT BURKE IS >> MAIN TURNERS AND MAJOR MOTION PICTURES YES, BUT WHAT BURKE IS REALLY DOING IS GRAPPLING WITH PICTURES YES, BUT WHAT BURKE IS REALLY DOING IS GRAPPLING WITH SOME UNANSWERABLE MYSTERIES SUCH REALLY DOING IS GRAPPLING WITH SOME UNANSWERABLE MYSTERIES SUCH AS ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO LOVE SOME UNANSWERABLE MYSTERIES SUCH AS ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO LOVE EVIL FOR ITS OWN SAKE?

AS ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO LOVE EVIL FOR ITS OWN SAKE?

>> A BLACK WIND BLOW THE WEATHER EVIL FOR ITS OWN SAKE?

>> A BLACK WIND BLOW THE WEATHER VANE IN THE WRONG DIRECTION AND >> A BLACK WIND BLOW THE WEATHER VANE IN THE WRONG DIRECTION AND RESHAPE OUR LIVES AND TURN US VANE IN THE WRONG DIRECTION AND RESHAPE OUR LIVES AND TURN US INTO PEOPLE WE NO LONGER RESHAPE OUR LIVES AND TURN US INTO PEOPLE WE NO LONGER RECOGNIZE?

INTO PEOPLE WE NO LONGER RECOGNIZE?

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE DARKNESS RECOGNIZE?

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE DARKNESS THAT CAN LIVE IN THE HUMAN >> YOU TALK ABOUT THE DARKNESS THAT CAN LIVE IN THE HUMAN BREAST.

THAT CAN LIVE IN THE HUMAN BREAST.

YOU TALK ABOUT MEN WHO HAVE NO BREAST.

YOU TALK ABOUT MEN WHO HAVE NO PARAMETERS.

YOU TALK ABOUT MEN WHO HAVE NO PARAMETERS.

>> YEAH.

PARAMETERS.

>> YEAH.

THERE'S NO EXPLANATION.

>> YEAH.

THERE'S NO EXPLANATION.

IT'S NOT JUST AN ABERRATION.

THERE'S NO EXPLANATION.

IT'S NOT JUST AN ABERRATION.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT ALLOWS THEM IT'S NOT JUST AN ABERRATION.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT ALLOWS THEM TO STEP OVER A LINE OR AS DAVE IT'S SOMETHING THAT ALLOWS THEM TO STEP OVER A LINE OR AS DAVE ROBICHEAUX SAYS THEY MURDER ALL TO STEP OVER A LINE OR AS DAVE ROBICHEAUX SAYS THEY MURDER ALL LIGHT IN THEIR SOULS.

ROBICHEAUX SAYS THEY MURDER ALL LIGHT IN THEIR SOULS.

DAVE SAYS THEY TRY TO ERASE THE LIGHT IN THEIR SOULS.

DAVE SAYS THEY TRY TO ERASE THE THUMB PRINT OF GOD FROM THEIR DAVE SAYS THEY TRY TO ERASE THE THUMB PRINT OF GOD FROM THEIR SOULS.

THUMB PRINT OF GOD FROM THEIR SOULS.

BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHY.

SOULS.

BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHY.

>> IN HIS WRITINGS HE MIGHT HAVE BUT NOBODY KNOWS WHY.

>> IN HIS WRITINGS HE MIGHT HAVE WRESTLED WITH SOME OF THOSE >> IN HIS WRITINGS HE MIGHT HAVE WRESTLED WITH SOME OF THOSE ETERNAL MYSTERIES BUT BURKE DOES WRESTLED WITH SOME OF THOSE ETERNAL MYSTERIES BUT BURKE DOES NOT PRETEND TO HAVE FOUND THE ETERNAL MYSTERIES BUT BURKE DOES NOT PRETEND TO HAVE FOUND THE ANSWERS.

NOT PRETEND TO HAVE FOUND THE ANSWERS.

>> WHEN YOU GET DOWN INTO THE ANSWERS.

>> WHEN YOU GET DOWN INTO THE TOP OF THE NIGHT, WHEN YOU'RE >> WHEN YOU GET DOWN INTO THE TOP OF THE NIGHT, WHEN YOU'RE STANDING ON THIRD BASE, YOU TOP OF THE NIGHT, WHEN YOU'RE STANDING ON THIRD BASE, YOU REALIZE THE GREAT MYSTERIES WERE STANDING ON THIRD BASE, YOU REALIZE THE GREAT MYSTERIES WERE GOING TO REMAIN THE GREAT REALIZE THE GREAT MYSTERIES WERE GOING TO REMAIN THE GREAT MYSTERIES.

GOING TO REMAIN THE GREAT MYSTERIES.

IF WISDOM COMES WITH AGE, IT HAS MYSTERIES.

IF WISDOM COMES WITH AGE, IT HAS BYPASSED ME LIKE A FREIGHT IF WISDOM COMES WITH AGE, IT HAS BYPASSED ME LIKE A FREIGHT TRAIN.

BYPASSED ME LIKE A FREIGHT TRAIN.

>> IN THE END DAVE ROBICHEAUX TRAIN.

>> IN THE END DAVE ROBICHEAUX THOUGH HE RARELY TURNS THE OTHER >> IN THE END DAVE ROBICHEAUX THOUGH HE RARELY TURNS THE OTHER CHEEK DOES FIND A KIND OF PEACE THOUGH HE RARELY TURNS THE OTHER CHEEK DOES FIND A KIND OF PEACE AND A PERSPECTIVE ABOUT WHAT IS CHEEK DOES FIND A KIND OF PEACE AND A PERSPECTIVE ABOUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT IN LIFE.

AND A PERSPECTIVE ABOUT WHAT IS IMPORTANT IN LIFE.

>> AT THE BOTTOM OF THE NIGHT, IMPORTANT IN LIFE.

>> AT THE BOTTOM OF THE NIGHT, YOU COUNT UP THE PEOPLE YOU >> AT THE BOTTOM OF THE NIGHT, YOU COUNT UP THE PEOPLE YOU LOVE, BOTH FRIENDS AND FAMILY, YOU COUNT UP THE PEOPLE YOU LOVE, BOTH FRIENDS AND FAMILY, AND YOU ADD THEIR NAMES TO THE LOVE, BOTH FRIENDS AND FAMILY, AND YOU ADD THEIR NAMES TO THE FINE PLACES YOU HAVE BEEN AND AND YOU ADD THEIR NAMES TO THE FINE PLACES YOU HAVE BEEN AND THE GOOD THINGS YOU HAVE DONE.

FINE PLACES YOU HAVE BEEN AND THE GOOD THINGS YOU HAVE DONE.

>> THAT'S IT.

THE GOOD THINGS YOU HAVE DONE.

>> THAT'S IT.

THAT'S IT, BROTHER.

>> THAT'S IT.

THAT'S IT, BROTHER.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S WISDOM OR THAT'S IT, BROTHER.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S WISDOM OR NOT.

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S WISDOM OR NOT.

IT'S THE WAY IT IS.

NOT.

IT'S THE WAY IT IS.

>> A NO NONSENSE APPROACH MUCH IT'S THE WAY IT IS.

>> A NO NONSENSE APPROACH MUCH LIKE ADVICE, BURKE WAS GIVEN >> A NO NONSENSE APPROACH MUCH LIKE ADVICE, BURKE WAS GIVEN LONG AGO AS A CATHOLIC LIKE ADVICE, BURKE WAS GIVEN LONG AGO AS A CATHOLIC SCHOOLBOY.

LONG AGO AS A CATHOLIC SCHOOLBOY.

>> A FRANCISCAN TOLD ME ONCE, SCHOOLBOY.

>> A FRANCISCAN TOLD ME ONCE, DON'T KEEP TRACK OF THE SCORE.

>> A FRANCISCAN TOLD ME ONCE, DON'T KEEP TRACK OF THE SCORE.

THE SCORE WILL TAKE CARE OF DON'T KEEP TRACK OF THE SCORE.

THE SCORE WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF.

THE SCORE WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF.

YOU NEVER MEASURE YOURSELF IN ITSELF.

YOU NEVER MEASURE YOURSELF IN TERMS OF DAYS OR WEEKS OR YOU NEVER MEASURE YOURSELF IN TERMS OF DAYS OR WEEKS OR MONTHS.

TERMS OF DAYS OR WEEKS OR MONTHS.

IN THEOLOGY IT'S CALLED THE MONTHS.

IN THEOLOGY IT'S CALLED THE FUNDAMENTAL OPTION.

IN THEOLOGY IT'S CALLED THE FUNDAMENTAL OPTION.

YOU MAKE YOUR CHOICE, YOU MAKE FUNDAMENTAL OPTION.

YOU MAKE YOUR CHOICE, YOU MAKE YOUR TROTH, YOU NEVER GO BACK ON YOU MAKE YOUR CHOICE, YOU MAKE YOUR TROTH, YOU NEVER GO BACK ON THAT SILENT CONTRACT YOU MAKE.

YOUR TROTH, YOU NEVER GO BACK ON THAT SILENT CONTRACT YOU MAKE.

AND BE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AT THAT SILENT CONTRACT YOU MAKE.

AND BE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AT THE ARITHMETIC ON THE SCOREBOARD AND BE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AT THE ARITHMETIC ON THE SCOREBOARD IN THE BOTTOM OF THE NINTH.

THE ARITHMETIC ON THE SCOREBOARD IN THE BOTTOM OF THE NINTH.

THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

IN THE BOTTOM OF THE NINTH.

THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

>> JAMES LEE BURKE AT 76 THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

>> JAMES LEE BURKE AT 76 CONFRONTING THE PAST, EMBRACING >> JAMES LEE BURKE AT 76 CONFRONTING THE PAST, EMBRACING THE PRESENT, POUNDING AWAY HARD CONFRONTING THE PAST, EMBRACING THE PRESENT, POUNDING AWAY HARD AS EVER.

THE PRESENT, POUNDING AWAY HARD AS EVER.

FOR "RELIGION AND ETHICS AS EVER.

FOR "RELIGION AND ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY," THIS IS BOB FAW IN FOR "RELIGION AND ETHICS NEWSWEEKLY," THIS IS BOB FAW IN MONTANA.

NEWSWEEKLY," THIS IS BOB FAW IN MONTANA.

>>> A MASSIVE OUTPOURING OF MONTANA.

>>> A MASSIVE OUTPOURING OF GRIEF IN JERUSALEM THIS WEEK.

>>> A MASSIVE OUTPOURING OF GRIEF IN JERUSALEM THIS WEEK.

MORE THAN HALF A MILLION GRIEF IN JERUSALEM THIS WEEK.

MORE THAN HALF A MILLION ISRAELIS FILLED THE STREETS TO MORE THAN HALF A MILLION ISRAELIS FILLED THE STREETS TO MOURN THE DEATH OF INFLUENTIAL ISRAELIS FILLED THE STREETS TO MOURN THE DEATH OF INFLUENTIAL FORMER CHIEF SEPHARDIC RABBI MOURN THE DEATH OF INFLUENTIAL FORMER CHIEF SEPHARDIC RABBI OVADIA YOSEF WHO DIED AT THE AGE FORMER CHIEF SEPHARDIC RABBI OVADIA YOSEF WHO DIED AT THE AGE OF 93.

OVADIA YOSEF WHO DIED AT THE AGE OF 93.

YOSEF WAS THE SPIRITUAL LEADER OF 93.

YOSEF WAS THE SPIRITUAL LEADER OF THE ULTRA ORTHODOX SHAS YOSEF WAS THE SPIRITUAL LEADER OF THE ULTRA ORTHODOX SHAS POLITICAL PARTY.

OF THE ULTRA ORTHODOX SHAS POLITICAL PARTY.

>>> ON OUR CALENDAR HINDUS HAVE POLITICAL PARTY.

>>> ON OUR CALENDAR HINDUS HAVE TWO POPULAR HOLIDAYS CELEBRATING >>> ON OUR CALENDAR HINDUS HAVE TWO POPULAR HOLIDAYS CELEBRATING THE TRIUMPH OF GOOD OVER EVIL.

TWO POPULAR HOLIDAYS CELEBRATING THE TRIUMPH OF GOOD OVER EVIL.

THE FIRST IS WHAT HONORS THE THE TRIUMPH OF GOOD OVER EVIL.

THE FIRST IS WHAT HONORS THE THE FIRST IS WHAT HONORS THE UNIVERSAL MOM AND THEN THE LORD UNIVERSAL MOM AND THEN THE LORD RAMA'S KILLING OF THE EVIL UNIVERSAL MOM AND THEN THE LORD RAMA'S KILLING OF THE EVIL DEMON.

RAMA'S KILLING OF THE EVIL DEMON.

AS WE NOTED, MUSLIMS ARE DEMON.

AS WE NOTED, MUSLIMS ARE OBSERVING THE HAJJ WHICH AS WE NOTED, MUSLIMS ARE OBSERVING THE HAJJ WHICH CULMINATES WITH THE THREE-DAY OBSERVING THE HAJJ WHICH CULMINATES WITH THE THREE-DAY FESTIVAL OF EID AL-ADHA, THE CULMINATES WITH THE THREE-DAY FESTIVAL OF EID AL-ADHA, THE FEAST OF SACRIFICE.

FESTIVAL OF EID AL-ADHA, THE FEAST OF SACRIFICE.

IT RECALLS ABRAHAM'S WILLINGNESS FEAST OF SACRIFICE.

IT RECALLS ABRAHAM'S WILLINGNESS TO SACRIFICE HIS SON IN IT RECALLS ABRAHAM'S WILLINGNESS TO SACRIFICE HIS SON IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD.

TO SACRIFICE HIS SON IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD.

>>> LAST YEAR, AS MILLION OBEDIENCE TO GOD.

>>> LAST YEAR, AS MILLION PERFORMED THE HAJJ, HUNDREDS OF >>> LAST YEAR, AS MILLION PERFORMED THE HAJJ, HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN FROM DAR AL-HIJRAH PERFORMED THE HAJJ, HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN FROM DAR AL-HIJRAH PRACTICED THE RITUALS CHILDREN FROM DAR AL-HIJRAH PRACTICED THE RITUALS THEMSELVES.

PRACTICED THE RITUALS THEMSELVES.

>> THE JOURNEY TO THIS HOUSE THEMSELVES.

>> THE JOURNEY TO THIS HOUSE ONCE IN YOUR LIFETIME IS IN THE >> THE JOURNEY TO THIS HOUSE ONCE IN YOUR LIFETIME IS IN THE ISLAMIC TRADITION A REQUIREMENT.

ONCE IN YOUR LIFETIME IS IN THE ISLAMIC TRADITION A REQUIREMENT.

SO PEOPLE WILL LEAVE THEIR ISLAMIC TRADITION A REQUIREMENT.

SO PEOPLE WILL LEAVE THEIR FAMILIAR AND THEY WILL COME TO SO PEOPLE WILL LEAVE THEIR FAMILIAR AND THEY WILL COME TO THIS HOUSE ESTABLISHED BY FAMILIAR AND THEY WILL COME TO THIS HOUSE ESTABLISHED BY ABRAHAM.

THIS HOUSE ESTABLISHED BY ABRAHAM.

BUT THE 6 MILLION PEOPLE CANNOT ABRAHAM.

BUT THE 6 MILLION PEOPLE CANNOT FIT INSIDE THIS HOUSE.

BUT THE 6 MILLION PEOPLE CANNOT FIT INSIDE THIS HOUSE.

AND SO PEOPLE WILL PRAY AROUND FIT INSIDE THIS HOUSE.

AND SO PEOPLE WILL PRAY AROUND THE HOUSE.

AND SO PEOPLE WILL PRAY AROUND THE HOUSE.

>> SEVEN CIRCUITS AROUND THE THE HOUSE.

>> SEVEN CIRCUITS AROUND THE KA'BA IS THE TRADITION.

>> SEVEN CIRCUITS AROUND THE KA'BA IS THE TRADITION.

WHEN HAGAR WAS LEFT IN MECCA BY KA'BA IS THE TRADITION.

WHEN HAGAR WAS LEFT IN MECCA BY ABRAHAM WITH HER BABY, SHE WAS WHEN HAGAR WAS LEFT IN MECCA BY ABRAHAM WITH HER BABY, SHE WAS LOOKING FOR MORE.

ABRAHAM WITH HER BABY, SHE WAS LOOKING FOR MORE.

THE ANGEL CAME AND SPRUNG A WELL LOOKING FOR MORE.

THE ANGEL CAME AND SPRUNG A WELL AND IN A KIND OF HOLY WATER, THE ANGEL CAME AND SPRUNG A WELL AND IN A KIND OF HOLY WATER, THEN THEY'LL RUN BETWEEN THE AND IN A KIND OF HOLY WATER, THEN THEY'LL RUN BETWEEN THE HILLS IN A WAY THAT HAGAR DID.

THEN THEY'LL RUN BETWEEN THE HILLS IN A WAY THAT HAGAR DID.

MINNA IS THE TENT CITY.

HILLS IN A WAY THAT HAGAR DID.

MINNA IS THE TENT CITY.

AND THEY WILL LIVE IN THIS TENT MINNA IS THE TENT CITY.

AND THEY WILL LIVE IN THIS TENT AND PERFORM FIVE DAILY PRAYERS.

AND THEY WILL LIVE IN THIS TENT AND PERFORM FIVE DAILY PRAYERS.

AND PERFORM FIVE DAILY PRAYERS.

THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD, WHEN HE THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD, WHEN HE MADE HIS PILGRIMAGE HE CAME TO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD, WHEN HE MADE HIS PILGRIMAGE HE CAME TO THE TOP OF THE HILL AND HE GAVE MADE HIS PILGRIMAGE HE CAME TO THE TOP OF THE HILL AND HE GAVE HIS FINAL SERMON.

THE TOP OF THE HILL AND HE GAVE HIS FINAL SERMON.

IT IS THE BELIEF THAT AFTER ONE HIS FINAL SERMON.

IT IS THE BELIEF THAT AFTER ONE COMPLETES THIS DAY THAT ALL OF IT IS THE BELIEF THAT AFTER ONE COMPLETES THIS DAY THAT ALL OF YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN.

COMPLETES THIS DAY THAT ALL OF YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN.

THE PROPHET INSTRUCTED HIS YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN.

THE PROPHET INSTRUCTED HIS COMPANION TO COLLECT SOME THE PROPHET INSTRUCTED HIS COMPANION TO COLLECT SOME PEBBLES.

COMPANION TO COLLECT SOME PEBBLES.

AND THE NEXT MORNING AFTER THAT PEBBLES.

AND THE NEXT MORNING AFTER THAT COMES AND THROWS SYMBOLICALLY AND THE NEXT MORNING AFTER THAT COMES AND THROWS SYMBOLICALLY THEIR PEBBLE LIKE ABRAHAM THREW COMES AND THROWS SYMBOLICALLY THEIR PEBBLE LIKE ABRAHAM THREW AT THE DEVIL WHEN HE WAS THEIR PEBBLE LIKE ABRAHAM THREW AT THE DEVIL WHEN HE WAS TEMPTED.

AT THE DEVIL WHEN HE WAS TEMPTED.

WHILE WE ARE IN MINNA THROWING TEMPTED.

WHILE WE ARE IN MINNA THROWING OUR STONES, PEOPLE IN MECCA ARE WHILE WE ARE IN MINNA THROWING OUR STONES, PEOPLE IN MECCA ARE CELEBRATING EID.

OUR STONES, PEOPLE IN MECCA ARE CELEBRATING EID.

IT IS LIKE THANKSGIVING ON CELEBRATING EID.

IT IS LIKE THANKSGIVING ON STEROIDS.

IT IS LIKE THANKSGIVING ON STEROIDS.

WE SACRIFICE THE SHEEP AND WE STEROIDS.

WE SACRIFICE THE SHEEP AND WE GIVE THAT FOOD TO THE NEEDY WE SACRIFICE THE SHEEP AND WE GIVE THAT FOOD TO THE NEEDY AROUND OUR PLANET.

GIVE THAT FOOD TO THE NEEDY AROUND OUR PLANET.

MY HAJJ IS NOT VALID UNLESS I AROUND OUR PLANET.

MY HAJJ IS NOT VALID UNLESS I MAKE THE SACRIFICE.

MY HAJJ IS NOT VALID UNLESS I MAKE THE SACRIFICE.

>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR NOW.

MAKE THE SACRIFICE.

>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR NOW.

I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR NOW.

I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

YOU CAN FOLLOW US ON TWITTER AND I'M BOB ABERNETHY.

YOU CAN FOLLOW US ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK AND WATCH US ANY TIME YOU CAN FOLLOW US ON TWITTER AND FACEBOOK AND WATCH US ANY TIME ON THE PBS APP FOR iPHONES AND FACEBOOK AND WATCH US ANY TIME ON THE PBS APP FOR iPHONES AND iPADS.

ON THE PBS APP FOR iPHONES AND iPADS.

AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE WHERE iPADS.

AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE WHERE THERE'S ALWAYS MUCH MORE AND AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE WHERE THERE'S ALWAYS MUCH MORE AND WHERE YOU CAN LISTEN TO OR WATCH THERE'S ALWAYS MUCH MORE AND WHERE YOU CAN LISTEN TO OR WATCH EACH OF OUR PROGRAMS.

WHERE YOU CAN LISTEN TO OR WATCH EACH OF OUR PROGRAMS.

JOIN US AT PBS.ORG.

EACH OF OUR PROGRAMS.

JOIN US AT PBS.ORG.

>>> AS WE LEAVE YOU, MUSIC FROM JOIN US AT PBS.ORG.

>>> AS WE LEAVE YOU, MUSIC FROM THE DOMINICAN SISTERS OF MARY, >>> AS WE LEAVE YOU, MUSIC FROM THE DOMINICAN SISTERS OF MARY, MOTHER OF THE EUCHARIST.

THE DOMINICAN SISTERS OF MARY, MOTHER OF THE EUCHARIST.

THEIR CD WAS NUMBER ONE ON MOTHER OF THE EUCHARIST.

THEIR CD WAS NUMBER ONE ON BILLBOARDS CLASSICAL TRADITIONAL THEIR CD WAS NUMBER ONE ON BILLBOARDS CLASSICAL TRADITIONAL CHART FOR SEVEN STRAIGHT WEEKS.

BILLBOARDS CLASSICAL TRADITIONAL CHART FOR SEVEN STRAIGHT WEEKS.

♪ ♪ THAT'S WHY WE'RE YOUR RETIREMENT THAT'S WHY WE'RE YOUR RETIREMENT COMPANY.