Production and distribution of City Club forums and ideastream public media are made possible by PNC and the United Black, fund of greater Cleveland, Inc..

I'll go ahead.

Good afternoon.

Welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Friday, November 17th, and I'm Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur, representing the ninth District of Ohio.

It's my it is my distinct honor to be here to introduce Her Excellency Oksana Markova, ambassador, extraordinary and plenipotentiary of Ukraine to the United States.

We are delighted to also have my trusted friend, Ohio's former senator Rob Portman, with us today.

I've just come from Washington, D.C., where I joined a majority of my colleagues from both parties in approving a continuing resolution to keep our government funded.

So while there's no imminent government shutdown, the measure we approved did not include any additional aid to the people of Ukraine to support them in their war against Putin's Russia.

In spite of persistent advocacy from all of us in the Congressional House, Ukraine Caucus 95 strong.

The caucus is bipartisan.

I want you to hear that word.

Bipartisan.

It can still happen.

Who have worked so to build stronger ties to Ukraine and to support the strengthening of democracy in that nation.

Senator Portman started the one on the Senate side.

Thank you, Rob.

Thank you so much.

Many of us remain steadfast in our commitment to seeing the Ukrainian people supported in their battle to preserve their nation and their democracy.

But we have a lot of work to do, a lot of education to do, to bring more of our colleagues along.

That's why events like this one and the work of the ambassador are so important.

Ambassador Marco Rover was appointed by Ukraine President Vladimir Zelensky in 2021.

Less than a year before Russia, Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine's sovereign territory.

Prior to taking this diplomatic post, she served in Ukraine's ministry of Finance, where she headed the country's economic recovery program, oversaw fiscal consolidation and coordinated International Monetary Fund programs.

Ambassador Markova also has an acclaimed career in the private sector, where she spent 17 years in leadership roles at financial institutions, including the Western Nice Enterprise Fund.

I was proud to host Ambassador Mark Rover this summer at the Lima, Ohio, tank plant, whose M1A1 Abrams tanks have since been delivered to Ukraine from right here in the heart of northern Ohio.

Now, I hardly.

Need to introduce Rob Portman.

I think you all know him and his steady, wise presence is missed in the Senate.

He served as the United States senator from Ohio from 2011 to 2023.

And when Rob came to the city club shortly after the war began, he talked about what he'd seen firsthand in Ukraine.

Moderating the conversation today is Dan Northrup, CEO of the city of this gorgeous city club of Cleveland.

Dan has been leading the city club since 2013.

And judging by this lovely new space, you're doing a great job.

Dan, right now, if you have a.

Question for the ambassador, you can text it to 3305415794.

That's 3305415794.

And City Club staff will try to work it into the second half of the program.

Members and Friends of the City Club of Cleveland please join me in welcoming Ambassador Oksana makarova and Senator Rob Portman.

Congresswoman, thank you so much for that introduction and thank you for your service to the people of Ohio.

There are so many elected officials and appointed officials and others in the room today.

I want to just take a moment to thank all of you for your service and for being here today to hear from the ambassador and senator Portman.

Ambassador.

I want to just start by also thanking you for coming to Ohio for really blessing us with your presence here.

Things are so difficult in Ukraine right now.

It is hard to know what the status is, how things are going, if there's progress.

Can you tell us give us an update.

Thank you, first of all, for having me here.

It's such an honor to be here at the City Club.

And with our excellent senator, fourth month was Congresswoman Kaptur.

With so many familiar faces in the audience, all the Ukrainians by by birth, by, by blood and by choice.

And just want to thank you for your support first, because we are where we are now, we would not be able to do that and to defend ourselves without the support of all Americans.

And it has been essential.

Now, when we were boarding the plane in Washington, D.C. today, I was so happy to see the announcement from our Marines that crossed the Dnipro again today and actually conducted very brave operations on the 11th Bank of Dnipro.

So for those who follow, you know, this is a big breakthrough.

And not only they are cross and they're doing constantly this operations, preparing the battlefield for the new liberations.

It has been almost two years of this full fledged war.

And the war started in 2014.

And we always have to keep it in mind that actually it's almost ten years of war.

But of course, this full fledged war, let's remind ourselves of what we were able to do since Russia attacked us, even though there was so much bigger.

We liberated more than 50% of the land.

They actually were able to occupy.

Since February 22, we were able to liberate Garrison.

We were able to liberate Kiev almost and forgive old blessed.

But after we started the summer campaign which simple summer counter-offensive and you know we're in deep August now deep deep autumn now.

It has been very difficult.

It's a 800 kilometer line, 800, 800 miles actually line, which is much longer than from Washington, D.C. to Chicago.

And it's a constant artillery battle.

So it's not a stalemate as some would call it.

It's not a quiet place.

It's it's a very hot world War One World War Two type of war over a very long period of time.

And even though, you know, of course, we would like to liberate country much faster because we know what happens on the on the occupied territories.

We know that people have been killed and tortured and raped and kids have been kidnaped into Russia as we speak now on a daily basis.

But since the start of this difficult summer campaign, we never lost an inch.

It was a very deliberate move forward.

We are moving forward and if we can all stay the course, Ukrainians can stay the course.

We will fight until we win.

We will fight regardless of whether you know the weapons is enough or not enough.

But if we all can stay the force in the course, if our friends and allies will double down now and provide us with more weapons, we can win this.

We can liberate more.

And so so.

One, it's a very difficult situation on the battlefield, but we keep fighting and we do not intend to stop during the winter.

Second, there is a constant attacks on all the cities.

Again, thanks to the US, thanks to patriots which are outperforming, you know, any other air defense in Ukraine.

There are safe islands or safer islands, I should say, in Ukraine.

But of course, we are bracing for a large, large barrage of everything.

And so he had this Iranian made.

Now Russia produce drones.

As soon as the temperatures will be constantly in subzero range.

And, you know, again, we don't have any alternative.

We have to win it for the sake of Ukraine, but we also have to win it for the sake of all of us, for the sake of anyone who thinks that democracy has to end.

Thank you, Ambassador.

Senator Portman, I want to ask you to talk a little bit about why this is so important to you.

I know this is a very important policy priority.

And when imagining your life as a senator, one can imagine why that was so at the time.

You're no longer, strictly speaking, a public official.

You're retired.

Why is this still so important to you?

It's nice to be retired.

Well, first of all, thank you for holding this, Dan, this this session.

And the city club has been a tremendous voice for Ukraine.

I've been here two or three times talking about Ukraine, and I really want to thank the ambassador for joining us.

Everybody in the country wants her to come to their equivalent, not that there's any equivalent to the city club, but to to their equivalent to speaking bureau.

And she chose to come here.

And I think one reason is she understands the people in this audience today, in this part of Ohio, has a very rich legacy and connection to Ukraine and has been extremely helpful.

I mean, it is amazing the amount of humanitarian assistance that has come just from northeast Ohio.

It's the police department in Cleveland that's providing helmets and protective gear.

It is med wish, of course, for those who don't know about med wish.

Oh, my gosh.

We're so lucky to have them in Ohio and here in Cleveland.

But they have provided tons of equipment, hospital equipment and other medical needs to Ukraine.

I mean, it is amazing what Marta and Andy have done with their respective organizations.

Marta, representing the United Organization of Ukrainian organizations here in Ohio, but they have for years been providing help for Ukraine, but of course, stepped it up after 2014.

And then Andy is the president of the American Congress, the Ukrainian Congress of a committee of America.

And they have provided help and a missing.

So many other people in this room who've been helpful, Marcy and others who've been helpful in being sure that we use the Port of Cleveland, which is an exceptional resource that we always are trying to use more.

This is a great way to use it.

And literally ambulances have gone on ships there and then been sent through the Great Lakes to to Ukraine.

So we thank you for coming.

And we know that, you know, how much support there is in this community.

And it's to answer your question more specifically about me, it's it's a matter of the heart and the passion.

In 2014, I was asked to go to Ukraine to be an election observer.

This was during the election of President Poroshenko.

And you may recall this was after the Maidan.

And just a very difficult time for Ukraine.

And 100 martyrs were killed actually more than 100, but 100 martyrs were killed by snipers.

These were peaceful protests.

And so the Russian backed, terribly corrupt government was kicked out, brought in a new government.

They needed to have election observers here to make sure it was done properly.

President Poroshenko won by more than 50% of the vote.

It was easy in a way to be an election observer, but what I found was a country that had made a decision, and the decision was not just to kick out a government that was corrupt, it was decision to be like us.

It was a decision by Ukraine to choose freedom and democracy and free markets and a European American future for themselves and their children and grandchildren.

And it was a very deliberate and very brave decision.

And the blood of those martyrs and others were there to show for it.

And they knew it was risky with Russia, but they were turning to us.

And to me, that combined with a lot of friends here in northeast Ohio who I gotten to know and elsewhere in Ohio made this an issue of of the heart and passion.

And it is, as ambassador said a moment ago, about the fight for freedom.

It's not just about Ukraine.

This is the endless fight for freedom.

And the founders of our country talked about this.

This is not going to be easy, right?

It's a constant fight.

And today that fight is being fought in various places around the world.

As we see, it's a dangerous and volatile time, but no place more distinctly about freedom than Ukraine.

Russia's totally unprovoked, totally illegal and totally brutal attack on Ukraine had to be responded to.

Otherwise, every other country around the world, our adversaries, our friends, would see that not just the United States, but the freedom loving countries all over the world.

We're not going to stand up when another country was so brutally attacked.

So there are over 50 countries who have stood up.

It's not just us, but it does include the European Union, it does include Japan, it does include Australia, it does include the great democracies around the world who say we have to stop this here.

And by the way, the consequences of not doing it, which I'll talk about more later, if we get a chance, are terrible for the United States, not just in terms of how China or North Korea or Iran or Hamas or others look at this, that no one's going to stand up, but it would result should we back off in other countries backing off as well, because we have been the leaders on the military side and I'm proud of that.

We should be doing more, which we can talk about later.

And if we do do more, we would breakthrough.

But this is a consequence that must be considered, which is that Putin will occupy Ukraine to all the negative consequences in terms of the message to the rest of world happens.

But then you have four additional countries that are NATO allies where we have an Article five obligation to protect them, a mutual defense treaty that will be on the border with Russia in all four of those cases.

Think of Poland.

Russia has said you're next.

And people say, well, you can't believe President Putin when he says that.

I mean, probably how to take the guy at his word, given the fact that no one thought he would invade Ukraine.

That made no sense.

But he rattled the saber and did it.

What would this mean?

This would mean that the United States would be obligated to put a lot more troops and a lot more equipment all along that new border.

And the cost of that to create Fortress Europe.

Again, for those of you old enough to remember Fortress Europe and the great treasure and blood that America shed, World War One, World War Two, we don't want to go there.

So that's a consequence that some of my colleagues on my side of the aisle haven't considered, I believe, which is the tremendous costs that would be incurred should this happen.

The Baltic countries, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, the countries all along that border, Slovakia, Romania, all these are our allies, you know, countries that we have an obligation to to protect.

So we need to stop it now.

We need to free Ukraine from this terrible invasion and establish the fact that not just America, but their fleet of them and countries all over the world are willing to stand up and be counted.

Thank you, Senator, and thank you.

When we the senator was talking about the importance for democracy and and democracy in nations devoted to democracy, standing together in support of Ukraine, Ukraine has had long standing ambitions to join NATO's to to be recognized as a part of that.

It really important treaty.

What is this what is the status of that?

I mean it starts with this like turn towards the west in 2014 as and earlier in some ways.

But there's a NATO summit coming up.

Can you talk a little bit about what Ukraine is hoping to see come out of that?

Well, first of the democracy.

So it's not just in 2014 when Ukraine made that choice.

We reconfirmed that choice in 2014.

But those who follow Ukraine, especially Ukrainians in the audience, especially our wonderful diaspora, know that Ukraine always made this civilisational choice to be European and to be democratic.

When we had a chance was it was 400 years ago, in 1918, when we had a brief history of statehood, when 1999, 1991, when overwhelmingly more than 90% of Ukrainians voted to be independent.

And it was recognized by Russia and by everyone, or in thousand for when we had Orange Revolution and when the democratic choice was stolen from Ukrainians, we went to the streets not because we loved President Yushchenko more than Yanukovych.

Of course, will ultimately.

And which but but because the democratic choice was stolen and then in 2013 again.

So we have been trying to be free and democratic and European and Ukrainian for as long as Ukrainians remember Ukrainians to be was it was Kiev and rules or Ukraine.

So for us, it's a long struggle for our independence.

And in this century, finally, our generation can do it.

And freedom is probably the biggest value for all Ukrainians, regardless of where we leave, you know, what our political aspirations or who do we like or what we want to be to be free is something that Ukrainians will never compromise on.

Now, it's very clear that for us to be free, democratic, European, there is only one choice.

There is no buffer zones, there is no you is a part of the civilized world or Russia or Russias of the world will try to attack and occupy and destroy you.

So that's why it's such a natural choice for us to be part of the European Union.

And that's why it's such a natural choice for us to want to be part of nature.

Now, Ukraine has gone a long way in our need to integration and aspirations to be part of the major family.

We in 2008, as you all remember, we wanted to receive the Membership Action Plan.

Unfortunately, that's when Russia did everything possible to scare everyone.

Let's call it the way it is from accepting us into even given us membership an action plan.

And unfortunately, some of the our European friends, you know, namely Chancellor Merkel, then we can read it in the press of her advisors, did everything possible not to allow that to happen.

That was a mistake.

And after 2008, Russia attacked Georgia and then they attacked us in 2014, and then they poisoned people on the streets of Great Britain, and then they shot MH 17.

But after 2014, it was clear to the majority of Ukrainians, overwhelming majority of Ukrainians support NATO membership.

We became first a partner with nature.

We have completed more than ten annual plans with NATO's successful actually complete path.

With regard to reforms, the major transformation of our armed forces is actually unbelievable.

And it's one of the reasons why my smaller army is actually winning over what we all thought was the second largest army in the world, because it's not the post-Soviet of small army fighting a large, definitely Soviet style Russian army.

We fight differently than NATO's interoperability of their control and command.

The training, you know, we already the most capable, the battle tested armed forces not only in Europe, but I would argue on the global scale.

And we received in 2020 that Europe status was nature, which allowed us to to develop more.

We now since last year since Vilnius have what is called the Ukraine NATO's council, which allows us actually in a very institutional way to develop our relations.

But I think we have to all be a bit more ambitious and in be brave and move forward and, you know, see how Ukraine can faster become member of NATO.

Now, we underway a realist.

We understand all their difficulties.

We understand that when the country is at war, you know, there are challenges with accepting country into the nature.

But I think we have to all look at this from the perspective that Ukraine has a lot to add to nature.

We do not want to be part of nature for nature to protect us.

We want to be part of nature because that's where we belong, values wise, and because we can add a lot.

NATO So what is the past?

The needs of membership provide us with more weapons now.

Provide us with every cent we need now.

And we really are counting on on Congress to support us with the supplementary budget was full support as soon as possible so that we can actually double down and liberators faster.

And let's focus on strategic partnership.

Let's focus on our NATO membership, let's focus on our European Union membership, which again, surprising, I think, for many during almost two years of full fledged war, Ukraine has completed very difficult internal reforms and just recently qualified.

We saw this the statement of the European Commission for the next stage, next step in our European membership.

And we will do everything and possible to win this war inside Ukraine, for the membership, to win this war against all the inefficiencies, legacy and, you know, Soviet legacy and corruption in order not only to win on the battlefield, but also to to build a much better country for our citizens.

Ambassador, you just brought up corruption, which is one of the the sort of allegations, I guess, that when when people raise objections to supporting to providing aid, to Ukraine from the US, they they raise objections to the corruption that that has been that historically has has happened but has also been rooted out.

Can you talk about a little bit about President Zelensky's fight against internal corruption?

Would be happy to because I think it's one of the reasons that proves that there should be more support, not less support.

So, look, Ukraine became independent in 1991.

We never had we were occupied for 400 years before that, literally by either the Russian empire or the Soviet Union.

We never had our own institutions.

It was always somebody for him.

So you take this young country with old history, without institutions, suddenly was market economy, but without schools, without your own institutions, without massive education for people.

And then, of course, with Russia that spent since 1991, everything in order to get us back.

And of course, you know, there is the emergence of oligarchs and who grabbed the whole sectors of the economy and specifically invested in supporting corruption was there.

You know, I was I was in business in Ukraine for a long time.

And then I was a finance minister before 2013.

The corruption was systemic and the fight was it which was there because we you know, it wasn't Ukrainians always fought against it, but the fight against it was sporadic because we never had enough bright, young, honest people in the government to actually fight it on all the levels.

Now, after 2014, situation changed after Maidan and several governments has made a lot in order to create to to decrease the space for corruption.

So essentially to root out the corruption in the gas sector, which was very much Russian, Ukrainian type of corruption in the energy sector in general, the public procurement was pro-Europe was open so that all companies could participate.

The transparency, the actually unprecedented.

You will not find a lot of countries even in European Union that has such a transparency of registers ultimate beneficial owners.

You don't have it in the US you know the the public declarations of all public servants, the public finance data you can see on a daily basis what Ukraine is spending the money on and what are the revenues.

So all of that was done in order to root out corruption.

And then President Zelensky in 2019 came to power on the if you look at his program on the anti-corruption agenda and the deal liberalization, which he started.

And I think this is the probably also the first time in the recent Ukrainian history when the president declared that the level playing field, the lack of opportunities for oligarchs, whether they are large oligarchs, Russian oligarchs, Ukrainian oligarchs, always with all the media goes, you know, the different people who are trying to grab the economy on the is going to is going to be how we do it now.

Is everything ideal?

Definitely not.

You see, you know, you have people here in the audience who do business in Ukraine.

You have people who work in Ukraine.

But the corruption is definitely not systemic anymore.

But the fight was it is systemic.

We have the whole infrastructure of this new anti-corruption entities, from the investigation to prosecutors to the special anti-corruption court.

We are working on judicial reform, by the way.

This is one of the most difficult but also most important reform that is part of our European Union integration.

But it's something that people also demand.

We're trying to deregulate and we are deregulating as we speak and we will get there, but we can get there faster if we will have more compliant American business, if we will have more compliant European business that will come and invest and bring the new culture and and corporate governance and rules, wisdom.

And I just want to add was, you know, during the war, all Ukrainians have a very strong attitude towards corruption bad and also the need to fight it.

For us corruption at times of war is is is is the same as treason.

And the president even initiated changes in the legislation, which I know some people even debate.

It was it's too harsh, you know, both in Ukraine and outside of Ukraine.

But, you know, at a time when we are fighting for our own existence, those who engage in corruption, those who engage in in this horrible acts now are actually not just, you know, undermining the economic security of the country, but but the national security in general.

So, you know, I think, again, we have to acknowledge the huge progress that Ukraine has made and the commitment that we have, all of us from president to all Ukrainians, to keep fighting until we again, I want to say eradicate it completely.

But as you know, none countries eradicated corruption completely.

It unfortunately exist where people exist.

But to get it to a level where it's it's it's not something that anyone talks about when they talk about Ukraine and to the level when even if it happens, the response is very swift and very soon, like it was recently, was the chief justice in Ukraine.

Nobody is untouchable.

He was engaged in alleged bribery and he's in prison right now.

And the largest oligarchs in Ukraine, one of the largest, Mr. Kolomoisky, is in prison right now.

And and this result shows that we are not only talking about fight with corruption, but regardless of how difficult it is, we also do it.

Sorry for a lot those.

That was a great answer.

It was Ambassador, my brother.

I said, Yeah.

I just want to say, for the benefit of our radio audience that you're listening to the City Club of Cleveland.

That's Ambassador Oksana Makarov of Ukraine.

And also with us is Senator Rob Portman.

Go ahead, Senator.

Well, one of the issues you've probably heard about in terms of the debate in Washington is broadly speaking, about corruption and specifically about the accountability of the U.S. taxpayer dollars being spent in Ukraine.

When we started the Ukraine caucus right after 2014, one of our main objectives was to focus on reforms and these reforms of the military, which is now, as I say, a Western style military with a civilian head.

That wasn't true before the judicial system, the economic system, the legislature.

And, you know, my own view, having followed that closely for the time between 2014 and and when the the horrible attack occurred back in February of last year, is that there was significant progress being made, significant and specific reforms put in place through the legislature.

Number two, my discussions with the government, I've been there 13 times since 2014 and met with President Putin twice here as well.

But in all this and I met with him every time I was there and met with others, including Oksana, my brother, when she was finance minister of Ukraine, where she did a great job of bringing in private sector disciplines, including on corruption.

Nobody wants to fight corruption more than them, and nobody wants to see any lack of accountability on any single American dollar going into Ukraine more than them.

They know what the consequence would be.

And here's the extraordinary thing.

I do not believe there is any American aid going anywhere in the world that is more subject to audit and accountability than the money to Ukraine.

And that's good.

I'm for that.

I hear some of my former colleagues saying we're just giving them a blank check.

Oh, my gosh.

There have been 47 different reviews of U.S. taxpayer spending in Ukraine.

47.

There have been nine GAO audits.

There are three inspector general's one State Department, one of the permanent defense, one at USAID to convene a group of 20 different agencies.

And when you get into the detail of this, it is extraordinary.

And we're spending over $50 million.

We spend over $50 million of U.S. money to ensure that all this happens.

So everything is audited very, very carefully.

And the World Bank is involved because some of the funding on the humanitarian side or the state side goes through them and they have their own audit.

Also, they have the Deloitte folks whose, you know, the auditors from the United States who are in Ukraine auditing in real time.

There's never been a dollar, in my view, that we've ever spent as taxpayer dollars.

It's better reviewed and audited, and that's good.

So when you hear people say that, you might just question them and just say, Well, do you know what's actually going on in Ukraine?

Have you been there?

Have you talked to the US government officials or the Ukrainian officials to hear what's actually happening?

So, Senator, and one more.

One more.

Okay, one.

Do you want.

To.

This is very, very, very important.

On the military assistance, we are doing end use monitoring of every piece of equipment going into Ukraine which I'm for in ways we have never done before.

I've been to the first Airborne and the 82nd Airborne on the border of Poland with Ukraine, where all the equipment comes in, serial numbers are taken now out in the field.

We have the ability to track these pieces.

Here's an extraordinary fact which might change tomorrow.

Not a single one of our military, you know, weapons think of stingers or, you know, rocket launchers or anti-aircraft or the tanks.

Now or armored vehicles.

Not a single one of the American pieces of equipment have gone in, has been taken by the Russians or misused or subject to, you know, some kind of corruption, not a single hit.

Now, it could happen tomorrow.

It's extraordinary.

But that end use monitoring is something that is now a precedent that the U.S. military will use in the future.

But it's never been done before.

And I congratulate 101st Airborne, the 82nd Airborne, and all the people in Ukraine who are Americans who are monitoring all this.

And we should be very proud of that.

And we should hold them up and encourage them to continue to fight.

We're going to we're going to go to questions from the audience in a second.

But I did want to follow up with your point, given everything that you've just described, the accountability measures that are in place both financially and and on the military side.

Can you explain why some of your some of your former colleagues in the GOP and it seems so resistant to supporting the Ukrainians efforts?

Well, I should let them see themselves.

I think I've addressed one, which is accountability.

And but it doesn't really explain it, because if they did the research, I think they would find out that there is extraordinary accountability and by the way, I'm for whatever if they want to do more, and that's that's fine.

But it's unprecedented.

I think there's three reasons.

Probably.

One is we have a severe fiscal problem in this country.

So to spend money on Ukraine and they would say it's $100 billion.

Some of that is true.

It's closer to maybe 74 when you net it out because a lot of its first off, we need to do anyway in Europe, but that's a lot of money.

And at a time when we're running big deficits, there is a concern about any expenditures.

So that's that's that's there as I said earlier, if we didn't do it.

My own view is we'd be spending a lot more and this would be bringing us weapons, U.S. military onto the border, the new borders with Russia, and protecting countries with which we have an obligation to do that.

Second, a lot of this money is being spent here.

So it's 74 billion, let's say.

But where is it being spent?

Let me give you a couple of numbers.

$684 million economic impact in Ohio.

Why?

Because we make a lot of military equipment here.

The line of tank plant was talked about earlier.

That's part of it.

But it's also a lot of munitions and other weapons that are made here in terms of investment in our military industrial complex here in Ohio.

There's also been a $65 million investment which was needed, and we had to do it anyway.

We found out once the Ukraine war started that we were not prepared.

We did not have the munitions to be able to deal with whatever else might happen around the world, including in Ukraine.

Frankly, our military industrial complex, the defense industry was moving too slowly.

So there's been a big investment.

So part of that money is being invested right here in Ohio and other states.

Ohio is one of the states that's gotten the most investment and benefit the most from this.

But this is about American jobs as well, which is forgotten sometimes.

Second issue I think people raise and understandably is just an isolationist approach.

And we are a country is have has a rich history of this debate.

Right.

It's been a spirited debate from from day one.

How much should America entangle itself with those overseas?

Remember, during World War Two, we almost didn't join.

What if we hadn't?

The world would be a very different place.

Everybody in Europe would be speaking German and, you know, so this is a it's a legitimate debate.

Should we be involved?

My view on that one, again, not to respond each of these is that this is not American troops.

Ukrainians have never asked for an American troops on the ground in Ukraine.

So we're going to the Q&A now with all of you.

I'm Dan Walter Begin, chief executive here at the City Club.

We welcome questions from everyone.

City club members, guests, students, those of you joining us via our live stream at City Club dot org or the radio broadcast on 89.7 ideastream Public Media W WKSU.

If you'd like to text a question, you can text it to 3305415794.

That's 3305415794.

And we'll work it into the program.

Our first question is coming fro of matter.

Madam Ambassador and Senator Portman.

My question is related to what Dan asked earlier, that the change in the Republican Party majority of the Republican voters seems to be opposed to Ukraine A8 your Senator who replaced you as opposed to it?

Trump, as opposed to it seems to cater to Hungary and Orban dictators or the one rather than democratic values, which when you go back to Eisenhower, Nixon and Reagan, they were opposed to Soviet Union and Russian and what and taking over the world.

Why is it that how do you change the narrative so that the Republican Party starts supporting it?

Rather than just a few people here and there?

Mm hmm.

Well, thank you for the question.

And it's a it's a fair one.

I would say that I don't agree with your premise, which is that a majority of Republican voters are against.

If you look at the polling, it does show that there's a plurality of Republican voters who are for it.

In other words, it's not a majority against it.

And I think they are influenced in part by what they hear from Republican spokespeople.

And let's face it, it's been a couple of years and we all have war fatigue.

We had it with every war been in.

So it's not unusual that you begin to see some of that.

But I would question that.

I would also say that if there is a vote tomorrow in the United States Senate, it would be a majority of senators who would support conti I know that I can't speak to the House as well, but I know that at least the past votes that they've had, they've all had a majority of Republicans supporting it.

And the current speaker says that he supports it.

So I think sometimes the media plays this a little bit more in a partizan way than it should be.

I think they're also trying to fan the flames of the partizanship sometimes here, because the the facts are there hasn't been a vote that's going down yet.

And Marcy can speak to the last vote, but it was a majority of Republicans who supported it, along with a big majority of Democrats.

So I hope that that continues to be the case.

And I do think that the issues I talked about earlier are issues that they're concerned about.

The one point that is being made more now after the slaughter by Hamas in Israel, again, unprovoked, brutal.

Is that these things are connected.

In other words, Russia, Iran are supporting Hezbollah are supporting Hamas.

And, you know, there is good intelligence now that's gone public.

So I can talk about it that the Russians have actually been helping Hezbollah with regard to things like anti-aircraft.

So people talked, you remember about the axis of evil at one point, and certainly that would include North Korea and Russia and and Iran.

And so I hope Republicans will look at this a little broader to the extent they are concerned about the funding going there.

You know, this is part of a much bigger battle for freedom.

The other point that I think should be made and I'm I'm careful on this because I don't have the precise numbers, nor does anybody.

But the Russian military has been substantially degraded by what the incredible Ukrainian armed forces have done with a much as ambassador said, a smaller number of people.

The numbers are out there saying 50% degradation.

And you can speak to this better than I can, let's say 40%, 40%.

You know, more than half of their armored vehicles, apparently Russian vehicles have been destroyed.

This is beneficial to anybody who believes in freedom and democracy, because otherwise this this focus is going to be elsewhere, particularly in the Middle East, particularly in backing the Hezbollah and backing the Syrians and backing anything that, you know is in the interests of Iran and Russia, not in the interest of the United States in Africa.

Think about what the Russians have done in Africa pushing out France, pushing out the United States in a very, very, very aggressive way in so many countries.

It's a distraction for them now to be able to do that because they have to focus on on Ukraine.

So I would hope that some Republicans would see this.

You know, the world is becoming increasingly divided between the dictators and the free countries.

And so this Russian unprovoked attack on Ukraine is part of a much bigger picture and that the brave Ukrainians are sort of fighting the fight that all of us have to fight to be able to push back against tyranny.

Thank you, Senator.

Ambassador.

I just wanted to add a little bit to that from my own personal experience.

So first, I think we do have stills, strong bipartisan support both in the Senate and the House.

We just have to explain more.

We just have to provide more information.

And it's definitely true about people.

So I don't travel as much as I want to.

Of course, I always like to travel to the Midwest as soon as I can because I feel home here.

But, you know, it's when I talk to people, even people who from the beginning says they do not support it.

But when you tell them about the fight, when you tell them about the war, that it was completely unprovoked, when you tell them, depending on who you talk to, like the people don't know that.

We have, for example, the largest Baptist community in Ukraine, among other eastern European countries.

They don't know how many people are killed on the uncontrolled territories and religious freedom is prosecuted, whereas in Ukraine it's flourishing.

When you tell them about the implications of this for four, four, four others, when you tell them about accountability, then the majority of people understand and support that.

So I think it's the time when we have to go back and so talk to people more and explain to them more.

And again, that's the way how you ask the questions, because I've seen many different polls when you ask people, do you want to spend more money on Ukraine when you have some needs in your own country?

I mean, in any country, people would say, no, it's just, you know, the way you raised the question.

Right.

But if you ask people, do we have to help those who fight for freedom?

Do we have to help those who defend themselves from Russia, Iran, you know, all this autocratic countries and that with would help us to strengthen our own national security and help us not to fight in this war, because we have to be also honest with people.

This is the choice.

The Putin will not stop or the Putins of the world will not stop, and people understand it.

So it's just a matter of honest and constant communication.

And I know how difficult it is.

I was in the government in Ukraine as the Minister of Finance.

But but you have to constantly talk to people, talk to and explain it to them.

And when you explain it, you know, in a way that is true and transparent, then the majority of people supported.

So this is the time I want to ask everyone in the audience and everyone who listens to us, this is the time to call and write to your senator and congressmen.

If you support, if you understand, if you know it, please say it because people who are against it, I think there is not a lot of a lot of them.

They are very vocal.

But people who are doing extremely important job like you, all the people who are helping people who are sending military equipment or sending the medical equipment, people who are hosting the Ukrainians here and helping Ukrainians.

Thank you very much.

But you 100% of your time busy with your work here was taken care of your families and help in Ukraine.

And sometimes you don't have time to see on a daily basis.

I do support it.

Well, please say it.

It's very important for all of us also to hear it.

Indeed.

We're going to try to get to is a couple more questions.

I hope time is really running away with us.

Go ahead, sir.

Yes, it seems the discussion is figures that centers around funding.

The second American ambassador to Ukraine, William Miller, once told me that Ukraine did everything the U.S. asked them to, including surrendering the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world, declining a contract with Iran to supply turbines for the Bushehr nuclear plant, sending peacekeepers to Bosnia and Iraq and Afghanistan.

Now, to set up the remainder of the question, Ukraine has had some tremendous scientists.

George.

Q Sikorsky invented the detonator for the nuclear bomb and served as a science adviser to President Eisenhower.

You or Sikorsky invented the helicopter series of LED the Soviet Sputnik effort and the ICBM program.

Your country.

Duke figured out the mathematics of flying to the moon.

You were Mary Von Kumar, Ukrainian.

American was co-inventor of the hard drive.

I could go on.

So the question is, if America doesn't have the funds to fund a friend in need, will it have the wherewithal to oppose the Russians if those friends are forced to serve the Kremlin again?

That's a that's a good point.

You know, one thing that we haven't talked about today on the positive side is the opportunity that is presented.

Should we win this battle, which we have to.

And Ukraine is an amazing country.

The human resource you just talked about are extraordinary and they're still there.

This is not you know, this is not as if all those scientists left Ukraine that need the opportunity in the digital age in Ukraine for economic development is tremendous.

But also, they have amazing natural resources, everything, including critical minerals that we need for our own transition, but also gas reserves and also, of course, our amazing agricultural capability really per capita probably best in the world.

So I was with Penny Pritzker yesterday and Secretary Pritzker, former secretary, Commerce has been named the special representative for Ukraine reconstruction.

And I was at the State Department meeting with her and it's really exciting.

What's being talked about in terms of if you can get this war of under control, you know, and be able to start developing some of these incredible resources in Ukraine, there is a there is a strong interest in a lot of U.S. companies and others willing to invest.

Just last month, we hosted Heather Conley of the German Marshall Fund, who spoke specifically at length about the idea of a marshall Plan for Ukraine.

Yeah.

Ambassador, quickly get to one last question.

You're absolutely right.

Ukraine can be and already is an answer to so many global problems.

And we have to talk about that, too.

How many American companies actually use in software developers from Ukraine?

Ukraine is in top five of exporters, number one in sunflower oil.

Number three and five on wheat and barley and everything else.

When we are talking about the lack of sunflower oil for some baby baby formula, we have to understand that it's because Russia invaded Ukraine and attacked Ukraine.

Not only Ukraine is affected, but the food security globally is affected.

The energy security.

We have exported electricity to European Union even in 2022.

We can do much more was all of our nuclear capacities.

So it's the right thing to fight for Ukraine.

From the values perspective, it's the right thing because America, as the leader of democracy, should, you know, must support other democratic countries.

But it's also a good sign for all of us, because Ukraine was natural resources, was people can be, you know, a solution to so many global problems and can be a very trusted partner for the United States.

And I think this war, if anything has happened, that we cannot rely upon non-democratic countries in our supply chains.

That's not good business.

Ukraine can be a very reliable partner for the US to resolve, to be stronger and to return to prosperity.

And we need peaceful prosperity.

One last very brief question.

Welcome, Ambassador Mercado.

Back to Ohio and Senator Portman, it's always good to have you back in Cleveland.

We thank you for your leadership and support and of course, to all of our allies that are here that have tremendously supported the Ukrainian Americans and Ukrainians.

My question is, what more can we do as Ohioans to support Ukraine?

And the second question is, can you comment on the aid bill for Ukraine and Israel?

But.

Well, first of all, we I I think you've already said it better better than I can, but.

Yeah, weigh in.

I mean, I think Martha said it with the Ukrainian organizations throughout Ohio.

And, you know, in Cincinnati, where I'm from, we've had fundraisers, but we had some celebrity chefs come.

Brendan Kotowski is here, who's actually gone to Ukraine and cooked for the Ukrainian refugees coming out.

Know I mean plug in plug in there's Martha can certainly direct you toward her fund which is very effective in providing humanitarian aid and so on.

But yeah, weigh in with your representatives, help with these organizations.

Many of you already doing so much, but some of you perhaps are learning some things today that would make you be more excited about that.

In terms of the legislation, it's very complicated as usual.

But remember, there was a bill that passed in the House that had aid for Israel, paid for with changes at the IRS, reductions of staff of the IRS.

That didn't work in the Senate.

And then the Senate has since combined into one supplemental, which was in their first original intent, the aid to Israel, the aid to Ukraine, but then also something on the border.

And so that's gotten a little bit muddied and a little more difficult to figure out whether there's a bipartisan path forward for all those things.

I think there is.

And I would ask people in the room, you know, to to to weigh in if you agree with me, that it's time to do all of those.

Of course, our borders are a problem.

And if we can find a bipartisan way to make some changes, even incremental changes on the border, we should do it.

And if we can get the aid to Israel that they need just right now, we we should do it.

And in addition, be sure that the aid to Ukraine is included at this critical time.

This is not the time to pull back.

If we have a pause and pull back, it will have a detrimental impact on the battlefield, obviously.

And again, the rest of the world is watching.

So and these are connected.

So my hope is that it will pass.

But that's the that's the status right now.

Yeah.

Martha Gendry and everyone here and everyone who listens to us.

First of all, thank you for everything you've done and please do more.

That's the answer for both.

This is the.

Answer to what?

What more to do everything that you have been doing and more.

And with regard to the bill.

It's critically important, critically important for us to continue receiving the supports in order to win.

So we are praying for Congress to come back from from Sens.

Given and get to this very important initiative and support us and Israel in this very important national security initiative to provide it to us so that we can liberate our country faster, we can win, and Russia can be defeated as soon as possible.

Ambassador of Solomon.

Grove, Senator Rob Portman, thank you so much for being with us today.

This has been a tremendous conversation.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us and for excellent collaboration then.

Thank you very.

Much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Just got to close this out with that.

Our forum today is made possible thanks to generous support from individuals like all of you here in the room and also listening today, if you'd like to learn more about becoming a guardian of free speech, you can find out more at Guardian's Guardian Guardians of Free Speech dot org.

Our forum today is also the Lisa Barton a care and faith with an H. Weinstein memorial forum.

We're honored to have Alan Blahnik with us here today.

Thank you, Alan, for your support.

Thank you so much.

Also, a special welcome to to our partners at the Crown Plaza Hotel.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Appreciate you.

And also welcome.

Two students from Mayfield High School, Chardon High School, M.S.

squared STEM High School, along with Ashbrook Center Global, Cleveland, Mont Surfaces whose materials are in our facility as well.

Press Public Strategies, Friends of Mark Ross and Ukraine and the Ukrainian Museum Archives, as well as, of course, the United Ukrainian Organizations of Ohio.

Thank you all so much for being here today.

That brings us to the end of our forum.

Thank you both so much.

Have a wonderful weekend.

A wonderful Thanksgiving.

Thank you for being a part of this today.

Our forum is now adjourned.

For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of the City Club, go to City Club dot org.

Production and distribution of City Club forums and ideastream public media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland, Inc..