- [Speaker] The production and distribution of city club forums on Idea Stream public media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.

(upbeat music) (bell chiming) - Hello and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

It's Tuesday, January 24th, and I'm Kristen Baird Adams, President of the City Club Board of Directors.

It is my pleasure to welcome today the honorable Wendy R. Sherman, Deputy Secretary of the US Department of State.

A year ago, President Biden held a video call with leaders of the European Union and NATO and the heads of state of leading European nations.

The purpose of the call was to discuss continued concerns about the Russian military buildup on the Ukrainian border and to help reinforce the shared commitment to the Trans-Atlantic relationship.

It would be just four weeks later that Russian tanks and troops would breach the border.

Russian forces advanced directly into Kyiv.

At the time, Russian leaders believed that the Ukrainian government would collapse.

Last week the deputy secretary was in Kyiv, which of course is Ukraine's Capitol meeting with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and other representatives of the Ukrainian government, which of course did not collapse.

Today, Deputy Secretary Sherman will share with us the picture on the ground in Ukraine and explain the scope and the importance of US support of the Ukrainian people.

The context of this is particularly important as questions by some continue regarding the cost of security assistance being sent by the US to Ukraine.

This includes questions posed in a draft letter to the White House Office of Management and Budget from Ohio's Junior Senator JD Vance that the Washington Post said amounted to a test on Ukraine policy for the new Congress.

For our program today, the Deputy Secretary will first provide some introductory remarks followed by a conversation with the city club's very own CEO Dan Moulthrop, followed of course by our traditional City Club Q and A.

If you have a question for our speaker, you can text it to 330-541-5794.

That's 330-541-5794.

You also can tweet your question @thecityclub, and The City Club staff will do its best to work it into the program.

Members, friends, and guests of The City Club of Cleveland, Please join me in welcoming the honorable Wendy R Sherman.

(audience applauding) - Thank you.

It's great to be here at The City Club.

As some of you have noted, I've been to Cleveland before and spoken as I just did early this morning at Case Western.

I think that coming to Cleveland is critical.

You all are the heart of America, and I'm really honored to be back here again.

Thank you, Kristen, for the warm welcome and thank you Dan and to the entire team at City Club for hosting me today.

My thanks as well to the civic leaders, academic students, and particularly representatives of the Ukrainian American diaspora for being with us today.

And you may note that behind me is a chair.

That's because if you see my silver hair, you know that like probably some of you here, I have some back problems and so I'm gonna pull up the chair and sit on it while I talk to you because standing for a long period of time is a little difficult for me.

So I manage, I go all around the world, including to Ukraine.

(audience laughing) It's a real honor to speak at this forum because this is a forum about free speech and robust debate.

This institution with a mission essential to America's purpose.

To quote, create conversations of consequence, conversations of consequence.

I love that phrase that help democracy thrive, which is so unbelievably critical in this world.

That idea could not be more important in our time and in every generation, but today we are here to talk about a place where the question isn't just about helping democracy thrive.

It's about ensuring that democracy can and will survive.

A place where courageous souls are risking their lives.

I'll get it later.

So that democracy might live.

A place where the values celebrated, advance, and sometimes taken for granted in our communities truly hang in the balance.

That place, as you all know well, is Ukraine.

That threat to democracy, to freedom, to self-determination, that threat is coming from Russia.

Let's be crystal clear up front.

In this war, there is only one aggressor and that's Vladimir Putin.

There's only one victim and that is Ukraine.

The struggle being waged from Kiev to Kazan is one with steep dangers for Ukrainians and high stakes for all of us here in Cleveland, throughout our country and throughout the world.

It's a struggle where we can, we must and I believe we will prevail as long as we maintain faith in our cause, fidelity in our course and unity in our support for the Ukrainians on the front lines.

That unity at home and with partners abroad is essential to Ukraine's success.

It's vital to the purpose that binds those in Cleveland together with Ukrainians and many others across the globe: dignity and democracy.

Our support as Americans makes a difference to Ukrainians' well beings and to our own futures.

Our investments are first and foremost about fortifying Ukraine's defenses and saving innocent lives.

They're about doing what's right for people in the path of an unprovoked war, but like so much of our foreign policy, our actions are important for reasons closer to home as well.

This is about our democratic principles.

This is about shaping and protecting open societies and open markets.

This is about deploying our diplomatic leadership to unify the world, to help Ukraine and to solve big challenges like food insecurity and energy insecurity that impact how we feed our families, fill up our gas tanks and power our homes.

This is about understanding how far away conflicts can impact pocketbooks from Cleveland to Cairo to Canberra.

This is about how Putin's war has caused major disruptions in the world economy, manipulating global food, fertilizer, and energy markets, blocking the export of grain from Ukrainian ports, spiking inflation, and the cost of living in the United States and elsewhere.

This is about how we have acted in concert with our partners and allies to thwart Russia's leaders and its oil sector while mitigating shocks to energy supplies and food systems everywhere.

This is about tackling the threats of this era from the war to terrorism, to cyber attacks, to pandemics to fentanyl and drug trafficking that recognize no borders, that touch cities and states and require responses from every level of government.

Here in Cleveland and northeast Ohio, this is also about something even more personal ties of family and friendship connections that run long and deep.

Ever since the first Ukrainian immigrants arrived in Tremont in the late 19th century, this city and region have served as a bridge, a sturdy bridge between our two countries, a bridge sustained by institutions like the Ukrainian Museum archives, by neighborhoods like the Ukrainian Village in Parma, by Ukrainian Orthodox and Catholic churches, by nearly 50,000 members of the Ukrainian diaspora who call this area home.

I'm proud to call and count myself among the collection of Americans with Ukrainian roots as my grandmother's story began in Pereiaslav.

I look forward to meeting with a collection of diaspora leaders and refugee families later today, along with Governor DeWine, Mayor DeGeeter and other officials.

These bonds have deepened with the most recent wave of refugees from Ukraine arriving by the hundreds and thousands over the past year, greeted and embraced here in Cleveland by humanitarian organizations, by programs led by the governor and local mayors by the Ukrainian American community.

Your actions are a reminder that no matter any differences of partisanship or background or ethnicity, we are unified in our support for Ukraine and its people.

I can assure you that your support is as vital today as it was when this war commenced.

Maybe more so.

Just last week, as Kristen mentioned, I traveled to Kyiv to see the situation up close.

One takes a 10 hour overnight train ride from Poland to Kyiv, and then another overnight train ride of 10 hours to go back to Poland.

Along with colleagues from the White House and the Department of Defense, we met with President Zelenskyy and all top officials.

We were confronted by the brutality of Putin's aggression and its horrific consequences.

Indeed, hours before our arrival, Russian missiles destroyed an apartment building in Dnipro, killing dozens including children.

Soon after we left, the interior minister and others perished in a heartbreaking helicopter crash.

Every day, Ukrainians bear the brunt of Russia's attacks on critical infrastructure, leaving millions without power for hours at a time without access to clean water without heat in the heart of winter.

Seemingly every week we hear news of another round of Russian atrocities, the destruction of homes, the assault on in innocence, the massacres in Bucha and Kazan and elsewhere, the deprivation of basic necessities, the evidence of rape and torture of families torn apart and children taken from their parents.

These barbaric acts post direct threats to Ukrainian liVes and represent gut-wrenching offenses to global norms.

Even so, despite so much terror in Kyiv, we also bore witness to the unfailing courage of the Ukrainian people personified by their president and cabinet and military embodied by the young leaders who spoke with us about their struggles and experiences.

One of them, a young woman, summed up the feeling on the ground perfectly and powerfully.

She said, being in Ukraine right now was at once devastating and inspiring, devastating and inspiring.

A stunning and searing description, an apt one too.

Our trip to Kyiv was meant to convey a clear message that the American people remained determined to enable Ukraine to defend itself.

Our visit was also time to coincide with two anniversaries of our campaign to prevent this war, and Putin's determination to wage it.

Let me set the scene of what transpired just a year ago.

Russia had amassed over 100,000 troops on Ukraine's border for what they said were just exercises.

They claimed they would never invade Ukraine, but we had ample intelligence of Kremlin's intentions, intelligence that wound up being tragically accurate.

Against that background, I led a delegation to what's known as the strategic stability dialogue with Russia.

We tried to de demonstrate the folly of their expected course.

We presented proposals to address Russia's security concerns.

We prodded our Russian counterparts to fully appreciate the dangers of their path, a path of zero rewards for anyone.

It represented a final opportunity to stave off disaster, stop unnecessary violence, find a way to avert war and chart a course towards stability and peace.

Two days later, our team traveled to Brussels to meet with the Russians again together with all of our NATO allies.

It was one of the most incredible meetings I've experienced in my life.

As one country after another 30 countries made it clear that we had to stand united in defense of democracy.

We had to stand firm for the rule of law and the international order that's guaranteed our collective security for generations.

We had to stand fast for Ukraine's sovereignty, its territorial integrity, its right to set its own policies, choose its own leaders, solidify its own alliances and dictate its own destiny.

Among our friends and like-minded partners, we had no illusions about where the path of inaction and disunity might lead.

A future where alliance is fray, authoritarianism dominates, and Russia's barbarism leaves the door open for others to think they can do the same.

They can follow suit.

So at that meeting we spoke with one voice, with one purpose, with one vision to each demand of our leadership and strength.

We said yes.

It was an extraordinary moment for the global community, but as it turned out, as we sadly knew even then the wheels of war were already in motion.

Putin's mind had already been made up.

To each of our treaties, to each of our offers, he ultimately said no.

Yet even more stunning as what's happened since.

For the last year, our unity has not wavered.

In fact, as President Biden has said, we are more unified than ever.

Our NATO alliance has held and is on the verge of growing, and more than 50 nations in Europe, Asia, and worldwide have joined our coalition.

Together, we have continued to supply a steady drumbeat of military economic energy and humanitarian assistance to Ukraine.

That unity abroad matches our unity here at home.

With bipartisan backing, the United States has led this effort with pride.

We have been the world's largest provider of security aid to Ukraine.

We have seen tremendous leadership from your representatives here in Ohio.

As Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur and former Senator Rob Portman, each led the charge as co-chairs of the Ukraine caucuses in the House and the Senate.

In part, as a result of that leadership, at the end of last year, Congress passed another round of funding to support Ukraine's defenses, advance its economic recovery, address its ongoing humanitarian crisis and support its neighbors.

Each of them, all of us, fueling the impacts of higher costs of energy, food, and living.

All of them playing hosts to millions of refugees separated from their families and forced to flee their homes.

In fact, I think Ohio is already supporting 3000 humanitarian pole rollies and have made offers to do much more.

These investments are intended to reinforce what Ukrainians are achieving on the front lines through their bravery and sacrifice.

To turn Putin's inhumane gambit into strategic failure, the results point in an unmistakable direction.

Since the start of this premeditated invasion, Russia has indeed failed to meet its objectives.

Russia failed to take Kyiv.

Russia failed to hold territory in the east and south.

Russia's attacks failed to break the will of Ukraine's people only serving to fortify it.

Russia's actions failed to erode our transatlantic alliance, only serving to strengthen it.

Now, what Putin couldn't win on the battlefield, he's trying to secure by freezing people in their homes and terrorizing them from the skies.

I saw what this means in Kyiv with long stretches of darkness and fear in the frigid air.

We will keep doing our part to meet Ukraine's needs to help the government repair infrastructure, keep the lights on, deliver blankets and heaters, fix houses and shelters, provide emergency food, sanitation, hygiene, and health supplies.

Just last week, the State Department announced even more funding to support Ukraine's Electric Grid to keep those lights on and houses warm.

On the home front, we continue to open doors to Ukrainian refugees where nowhere else to turn.

Our first step was uniting for Ukraine, a vehicle for Americans to help tens of thousands reach shores and resettle our communities, including those 3000 in northeast Ohio.

Many of you in this room have played a role in that effort, and for that I deeply thank you and commend you.

A few days ago, we launched another step, our welcome core, a program that empowers everyday Americans to privately sponsor refugees from Ukraine and elsewhere in the world.

This is a really exciting development.

It is, without a doubt, the boldest innovation in our refugee resettlement efforts in the last 40 years.

These steps are critical for Ukrainians today, yet still, we wish for a day we wish for peace when they will no longer be necessary, when the war comes to a close.

Make no mistake, this could end tomorrow if only one man said yes to peace.

If only Vladimir Putin was prepared to withdraw his troops, if only he were able to respect Ukraine sovereignty and rights, if only he were ready to end the war he chose to begin.

Instead, he has shown zero interest in serious diplomacy.

As many have said, if Putin stops the fighting, the war ends.

If Ukraine stops fighting, Ukraine ends.

As we look forward, certain principles will remain our guide, first among them, nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.

Any conclusion to this horror must be decided by Ukraine itself.

It must include accountability for Russia's crimes of aggression, because how any war ends matters a great deal.

It must lay the groundwork for lasting security and a sustainable and just peace, and it must reaffirm what we know to be true, that if Putin prevails in Ukraine, he can threaten former Soviet states like Poland and the Czech Republic.

He can present a model for fellow autocrats to engage in similar treachery all over the world.

We simply cannot allow that to happen.

Until that day comes, we will remember another important lesson of this moment.

We have seen what's possible when we stay unified around common goals.

Partners and allies may debate tactics, details, and daily decisions.

People of different political parties may debate the best application of funds or provision of equipment or steps to take, but we're all pushing in the same direction.

We are all determined to empower Ukrainians with the means to defend their lives and our shared values.

We are all focused on standing with Ukraine for as long as it takes.

If we need any extra motivation to stay this course, we should only think back to what that civil society leader told me and my colleagues in Kyiv.

That life in Ukraine is devastating and inspiring.

We should commit ourselves to changing that to ushering in a time when Ukrainian Americans from Cleveland can visit their family members and friends in a different Ukraine, an even stronger Ukraine, a rebuilt and reimagined Ukraine, a Ukraine that is open and safe, democratic and secure.

Still inspiring and always free.

May that be the vision we realize and the future that we all build together.

Thank you very much.

(audience applauding) Got it, thank you.

- Let me ask you directly though about, I mean the challenge that Kristen spoke to in the introduction, that there's increased scrutiny on the costs, the financial costs, and the consensus is breaking a little bit in Congress.

How much have we spent?

- We've spent a lot.

(audience laughing) You know, I think this is hard.

It's sort of this club's mission is about having conversations of consequence to uphold the democratic values that we hold dear, our vision of what we want the future to be like for our children and in my case grandchildren and what kind of world they're going to live in and whether they will be free to make choices that are important to uphold those values that we all fight for.

And so what price tag do you put on that?

I think the money that a bipartisan, very strong bipartisan consensus in Congress that I believe still remains.

I just spoke very recently with Chairman McCall, now chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, a Republican who is just completely committed to continuing to support Ukraine and believes that the caucus in the House will maintain that.

Senator McConnell, when many, many years ago I was the assistant secretary for legislative affairs when Warren Christopher was Secretary of State.

That was a long time ago, and I was around when the Soviet Union broke up, and there were 13 new Lee independent states.

And Mitch McConnell, who was in the Senate at the time, still earlier, pushed really hard that of the $1.5 billion, which we thought was an enormous amount of money, and I don't know how much that would be in today's terms, that 300 million of that 1.5 go to Ukraine because he thought Ukraine was central to ensuring democracy in Europe, a free united Europe that would be a market for American goods and create jobs and create peace and stability in the world.

He still believes that today.

I've spoken with him about it.

And so there is strong bipartisanship in the Senate as well.

So I think this center will hold, yes, of course we have to be accountable for that money.

Ukraine has to be accountable for that money.

There are headlines today about Ukrainian leaders, President Zelenskyy, taking very tough action in the middle of the war to ask for resignations, in essence fire some of his colleagues because he believes they have been corrupt.

That is the kind of accountability one wants in a democracy.

And I give President Zelenskyy a lot of credit because he understands he will not be able to hold that bipartisan consensus in our Congress.

He will not be able to hold the unity in the world if people believe money is not being well spent.

But for me, the bottom line is what price democracy?

What price ensuring that Putin has a strategic failure so that others like Putin around the world don't do the same in Africa or Asia or Latin America or even here at home?

(audience applauding) - The efforts at the beginning, prior to the war, the invasion prior to Putin beginning his war, those efforts to convince Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin not to do what they seems poised to do those efforts ultimately failed.

You said that if Putin chooses to stop fighting, the war ends.

Is there any chance that Putin would choose to stop fighting?

- I hope that day comes sooner rather than later.

There's no one who wants a just peace, a sustainable peace more than the people of Ukraine.

Nobody.

So when people worry, well, you know, why is Ukraine continuing?

Trust me, they would like it to be over now.

Putin has shown absolutely no interest in diplomacy.

There have been many leaders around the world.

There's almost no place I go and I travel all over the world where the leader of countries doesn't say, "We're trying to get him to the negotiating table.

We wanna mediate the end to this."

And we would be delighted for anyone who can get him to stop.

There will come a point, I think, I hope sooner rather than later, where he will understand he is not going to prevail on the battlefield.

Some people have suggested that we urge a ceasefire right now, but think about what happens if that happens right now, then everything freezes in place and Putin will argue that the borders then should be wherever the battlefield is today.

That helps Putin, that doesn't help Ukraine to ensure that it has secure borders that next year Putin won't try this all over again.

So whatever happens has to be a just and sustainable piece so that Ukraine knows that it has a secure country where it can ensure its territorial integrity.

- There's been, prior to today's headlines regarding corruption, the last week have been headlines regarding Abram's tanks and as well as their German counterpart.

Can you help us understand what's actually going on with those conversations?

(audience laughing) - I think you'll see in the days ahead resolution of some of these issues.

- Okay.

- This is hard for everybody.

Each country, as President Biden has said, has to make its own decisions about what weapons it wants to provide.

And Germany is an in incredibly important partner to the United States, an important part of NATO, an important ally of the United States, and think of what they have done so far.

A country that understands its own history, very, very well, teaches its children in schools about its history, very straightforwardly, has never wanted to militarize in a way that people feel threatened again, given its history.

They have provided lethal aid already in substantial quantity to Ukraine.

They have provided humanitarian assistance.

They have taken in many, many, many, many, many refugees.

They have increased their military budget phenomenally.

They have shut down all the pipelines from Russia in terms of Russian oil.

So Germany has taken a lot of steps.

They have had great concern about having tanks, German tanks go across Europe again, and I understand that.

Countries around the world, on the other hand, want to be able to supply Leopard tanks.

And because Leopard tanks are manufactured in Germany, in essence German content and technology, Germany has to give permission.

I suspect if you stay tuned, that all of this will be resolved relatively soon.

But as I said in my remarks, there will be debates over details and the way forward and tactics.

What matters is do we stand together?

And I have no doubt that the United States, NATO, partners and allies around the world in 50 countries and more stand together.

- In this sort of context where the values are so important.

As you've said, the values that the United States supports and the US allies and Ukrainian and allies to Ukraine support are so important and so deeply felt.

There's a danger of mission creep of saying at the beginning, we'll provide humanitarian support and then you start providing military support and saying, we're only providing military support, and then you're providing training as well, and then you're providing ultimately maybe tanks next week.

Who knows?

I'm sure, you know, I don't.

(audience laughing) So are, are you and your colleagues in the State Department and in the administration concerned about mission creep?

- I'm not.

President Biden's been very, very clear every step of the way.

I think he has been cautious.

He does not want American boots on the ground.

He doesn't want us in directly in the fight.

Supporting Ukrainians, training.

You know, if when we supply this equipment, the Ukrainians have to learn how to use it.

So that takes a little bit of time and just getting equipment to Ukraine from everywhere in the world takes time.

And again, this is about a fight that is important to all of us.

When Putin began this, to give you one example, because of the war, Ukraine, as I think all of you know, is known as the bread basket of the world.

A huge amount of the world's grain, corn, comes from Ukraine.

Likewise, a lot of grain from Russia, fertilizer from Russia.

And it all stopped.

And that meant that people in India, people in South Africa, people in Chile, people in Thailand faced food insecurity if they could not get the grain.

Now, fortunately, negotiations went on even in the midst of war, to agree on terms for allowing ships to come in and begin to take out that grain.

Every step of the way, Russia remains a problem, constant negotiations, but what happens in Ukraine is not just about Ukraine, and as fundamental as I think it is a fight for democracy, it is also a fight to make sure that people can eat, that inflation does not go out of control, that energy prices stay low.

So when oil supplies got cut because of what Putin has done, we all came together with our partners and allies to put a price cap in place, which created market pressure to lower price.

And so we've all seen our gas prices come down.

So democracy is at the heart of this territorial integrity, sovereignty, right of countries to make their own choices.

But it's also about how everything that happens in the world is interconnected and affects all of us and affects us at home.

So this fight is important for each of us.

- We're gonna bring in audience questions in just a second, but before we do, I wanted to ask you to respond to a certain criticism about the US involvement in Ukraine.

In the New Republic, Trita Parsi argued that there are a number of non-monetary costs.

There's the strategic costs that our involvement is provoking the formation of a Russian, Chinese, Iranian alliance and the emergence of a multipolar world that sort of displaces the US' role as a superpower.

What do you say to that?

- I say Trita as a very thoughtful guy.

I know him pretty well.

He and I have talked a lot in the past about Iran.

Look, we already live in a multipolar world for starters.

This hasn't been created because of Ukraine, that already existed.

We are of course concerned about new relationships being formed that can create challenges for us, and we are taking on those challenges as well.

We have a lot of tools to do that, including sanctions, including actions that we are taking with our allies and partners in this regard.

I think it is very important, as the President has said, as Secretary Blinken has said, Secretary Austin, the pacing challenge for this decade, Ukraine, Russia being the central focus right now for so many people is actually China.

China is the only country that has the wherewithal to compete effectively with us in military, diplomatic, political, and economic terms.

Secretary Blinken last May laid out sort of the framework of invest, align, and compete regarding China.

We're going to invest in our own country and President Biden, Vice President Harris and Secretary Blinken and the rest of the cabinet and the Congress have passed legislation to invest in our country in infrastructure jobs, in climate jobs, in renewable jobs, in technology jobs, in the semiconductor industry, which is so critical to our technological future so that we strengthen our own core, our own ability to compete our, own market.

Second, to align, to work with partners and allies together in this multipolar world.

And then to compete and to insist on norms and rules of the road.

China's trying to construct a whole new set of rules of the road, even though the current rules of the road help them to develop and become as powerful as they are today.

Secretary Blinken will be heading to China soon.

We wanna make sure they're guardrails.

We have no interest in conflict.

We have no interest in war, but we are interested in making sure there are guardrails and that there are common understandings about how we're gonna move ahead.

(audience applauding) - Wendy R. Sherman is the Deputy Secretary of the US Department of State.

I'm Dan Moulthrop with The City Club, and we're going to move to the Q and A with all of you.

If you're joining us via our livestream, you can tweet a question at the city club or you can text it to 330-541-5794.

The number again is 330-541-5794.

Our first question, please.

- Madam Ambassador, my question for you is, had Trump been an office, how different would the world would be now with Russia and Ukraine?

And part two of the question is, why were we silent when Chechnya was taking place?

And it has been a case after case in Russia taking over different regions, and we never did anything till it became to Ukraine.

- I have no idea what President Trump would do.

(audience laughing) I cannot begin to imagine, and I don't wanna hypothesize what he would do.

I would leave that to you and others to imagine what he would do.

I would hope because this has been a strong bipartisan effort, that he would've understood what was at stake for America and that given that strong bipartisanship, that we would've been on the same path.

That would be my hope, of course.

Now, as to Chechnya, there are many things in the world that are hard, and we have called out Russia in what it has done in the past.

In many ways.

We have had sanctions on Russia for many things, including all of its activities, including how it has poisoned its opposition, literally in Mr. Navalny.

So we have not treated Russia with kid gloves.

I think we have been quite direct, and there have been times when I've worked well with my Russian colleagues.

They were helpful in getting the joint comprehensive plan of action done with Iran whether you supported that or not, they were helpful.

And there have been other times where they've been terribly horrible, and we have called them out.

So I appreciate what you have raised, and it is important that we are always there when we see our values being attacked.

- Next question.

- Yeah, in retrospect, were any errors made in our response to the invasion of Crimea?

And if there is ever a negotiated settlement, what would be the issue question of Crimea.

would it stay with Russia or is do you think it would end up with Ukraine?

What is sort of the view on that?

- So our view is nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.

Ukraine will decide the end of this story.

They will decide what is a just and sustainable piece, what they need to ensure that a few months after pieces gotten that Russia will not invade again, that they will not try to come back, that their borders will be secure.

So those issues are in Ukraine's hands, not for us to determine, in my view.

As for when Crimea was taken, you know, we can all go back and look at history and learn lessons.

There is no doubt there is op-ed.

I'm not sure where it was by Kalaba today in Politico, the foreign minister who lays out what he thinks was the mistake of Minsk, of the Minsk agreement, which was meant to keep Ukraine secure.

So I think it's always useful to go back and look at the lessons learned so that this time, this is why it's so important, nothing about Ukraine, without Ukraine.

They have to decide what will ensure that they can have a safe, secure, viable, democratic, economically secure and border secure Ukraine.

- Can tell us a little bit more about the US policy on accountability in particular for the crime of aggression?

Thank you so much.

- Thank you.

Thank you for the work you do.

It's terribly important.

And some of Cleveland State students were at my remarks at Case Western this morning.

It was great to have them there as well.

The issue of accountability is absolutely critical.

When people ask what happens at the end of this, if there is not accountability, we have not done on our job.

We have not done our work.

In terms of what that should look like.

It is true, we have not come to closure on this.

We are open to all vehicles that can provide accountability.

Yes, we are not a member of the ICJ, and we could have a long discussion about why, but we have supplied information where we can, we have cooperated where we can, where we feel within our own legal system and our own interests we can do so.

But we have a accountability advisory committee that's working with us to think through, and we are open to any and every mechanism that can ensure accountability.

- What initiatives has the state department been engaged with to be able to basically tell 'em to stop?

- Thank you, Rob.

And thank you for the work that you and your colleagues are doing with American business in terms of Russia.

When this unprovoked, premeditated, horrifying invasion took place within weeks, about 200 American companies left.

It's hard to unwind a business as all the business people in this room know.

So some businesses have taken longer than others to unwind that relationship.

But business after business is leaving and appreciate your efforts to increase that pace.

Our Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs, our center for economic agriculture and environment has been engaged as have been our secretaries and departments of commerce and treasury to support business in unwinding their affairs with Russia.

These are all individual business decisions that people have to make some of them very tough.

I think that companies know.

I ran a global consulting business for well over a decade with former Secretary of State Madeline Albright and others.

And I know at the time Coca-Cola was a client, and they had left places in the past and getting back in once there's a decent environment again and values are back is not easy.

So these are all very tough business decisions.

But I appreciate the work you're doing, and I appreciate the work all of my colleagues have been doing to support business, to unwind those relationships and ensure that there is a strategic failure for Putin.

- I wanted to know about the status of the resurrection of the Iran nuclear deal and whether your enthusiasm for it is tempered at all by the relationship and the assistance that Iran has given to Russia in the Ukraine War?

- Thank you.

So the joint comprehensive plan of action, better known as the Iran deal, is still on the table, but it's not on the agenda.

And it's not on the agenda not only because Iran has given UAVs and there's other military engagement with Russia, which is horrifying because it's led to the death of many civilians in Ukraine and is really a weapon that is horrifying in what it's done to the civilian population and taking out power grids and ending, trying to freeze people to death.

But because of wanting to support the protestors in Iran, the right of women to have a future in Iran because of what Iran's malign behavior has been in the Middle East.

And they're undermining of governments throughout the world because they still wrongfully detain Americans in Iran.

So there are a lot of reasons, a lot of reasons why the joint comprehensive plan of action is not on the agenda right now.

That said, we remain very concerned about Iran's nuclear program and where it is headed.

We are in close consultations with many around the world, including our European partners and of course with Israel and others in the Middle East about how best to deal with all of the challenges that come from Iran.

And it is of great concern, a lot of energy and efforts going into meeting each of those challenges.

- Given some of the low expectations that some people have for had for President Zelenskyy when he first assumed office, is there any one aspect of his leadership and strength that has surprised you?

- It's a great question.

Really interesting because before I became Deputy Secretary of State, I was a professor of public leadership and director and head of the Center for Public Leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School.

So I've thought a lot about leadership.

What I find so amazing about President Zelenskyy is he has created a whole new way to communicate with people.

Not only does he understand social media in an extraordinary way, but look at what he did.

He, by using technology, spoke to parliaments all over the world, said, "I can bring other countries into this fight.

I will go out and talk with them, not by physically traveling there because I can't, but by reaching them over a screen."

He's done that in parliaments, legislatures and groups of people.

He doesn't miss any opportunity, no opportunity.

And of course, he made that historic extraordinary trip to the United States Congress just a few weeks ago to speak to the American public.

So this is a man, maybe because he was an entertainer who understands and has used technology to communicate with people in new and inventive ways that I think have challenged all of us to think about how we communicate, how we put a message across, how we consolidate support for an effort, for a venture.

I think it's just amazing what he does.

Every single night.

Every single night, he does a video for the people of Ukraine.

Every single night.

I mean, it takes President Roosevelt's fireside chats to a whole new level.

(audience laughing) So I think people will study in the future how he has done this, how he has communicated with his own people and how he has communicated from with the world.

It's been quite amazing and really inspiring.

I think this is our last question.

- My question is, it's not the follow up in the human right rights investigations afterwards.

What could be done to end that sort of targeting in real time now?

- Great question.

What has been very critical to try to end some of that is air defense.

Air defense.

Air defense.

A lot of this is targeted at critical infrastructure to knock out the power grid of Ukraine so that people are frozen to death.

So if you don't have power, you not only don't have heat, you not only don't have lights, you don't have water because you can't, you have no pumps, the pumps can't operate.

So that's what's happening.

The way to deal with that is air defense around power grids.

So we have gone all over the world to try to get air defense systems in, but also to get transformers, generators, repair parts.

One thing that's become very apparent to me is that Ukrainians are incredibly inventive.

Ukrainian engineers have figured out how to sort of jerry rig power grids in ways nobody ever imagined.

People who have been teaching in engineering schools are now on the front lines.

And our military has been incredibly impressed with the inventiveness, with the ability of Ukrainians to do things in the field, do things to protect themselves that have never been imagined.

We are all going to learn so much painfully from what has occurred here, but most important for the power grid, not only our supplies, transformers, other efforts to help the Ukrainian people in real time, but air defense.

Air defense.

Air defense.

(audience applauding) - Thank you, Deputy Secretary.

Today's forum is The Annual Richard W. and Patricia R. Pogue Endowed Forum made possible by a generous gift to someone very near and dear to our hearts here at The City Club.

Dick Pogue and his wife Pat.

We are delighted to have Dick here with us today.

Thank you, Mr. Pogue, for your longstanding support (audience applauding) Of the City Club of Free Speech and Democracy.

The City Club also would like to welcome guests at tables hosted by the Cleveland Council on World Affairs, the German Marshall Fund, Marshall Memorial Fellows, and Global Cleveland.

Thank you for all for being with us here today.

Tomorrow, Wednesday, January 25th at the City Club of Cleveland, we will have Cleveland City Council President Blaine Griffin, who will join us to discuss priorities for City Hall.

Then on Friday, January 27th, we will welcome two international leaders who were instrumental in ending apartheid in South Africa.

Ralph Meyer, the Chief negotiator and former Minister of Defense and Constitutional Affairs under F.W.

de Klerk and Nelson Mandela.

And Mohammed Baba, a former member of Parliament and former negotiator with the African National Conference will be with us.

You can learn more about these and other city club forums at cityclub.org.

And that brings us to the end of today's forum.

Thank you once again to Deputy Secretary Sherman and thank you members, friends and guests of The City Club.

I'm Kristen Baird Adams and this forum is now adjourned.

(audience applauding) - [Speaker] For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of The City Club, go to cityclub.org.

(upbeat music) - [Speaker 2] Production and distribution of city club forums on Idea Stream public media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.