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>> I simply do not believe that the safety and security of America is enhanced by continuing to deploy thousands of American troops and spending billions of dollars a year in Afghanistan.

>> Tom Layson: And with that, the largest segment of the military response to 9/11 comes to an end.

Twenty years later, the War in Afghanistan ends like a flashback to Saigon, and with about the same result, as an anti-democratic regime takes charge of a country we thought we could save.

The spark this time though was the tragedy of 9/11.

And now it's hard to even remember to tie America's longest war to that fateful day when everything changed.

How will history remember 9/11?

Do we glean any ultimate lessons from it?

That's the discussion tonight on Northwest Now as we remember 9/11.

[ Music ] All of us remember where we were and what we were doing with the Twin Towers fell.

Now it seems like such a distant memory.

And that's part of the reason so many worked so hard all across America to build memorials to the fallen, including as photojournalist Michael Driver shows us, the memorial in Millton.

>> Mr. Chandler: I felt it was something that I wanted to give back to the community and wanted to let my grandsons know that grandpa stood for something and that we accomplished something in my lifetime.

It's 35 feet, four inches.

It's the largest piece in western Washington.

This artifact came from Tower Two, very close to where the second aircraft went into the building.

It's a window framing section from the 91st and 94th floor.

The reader board that we have as you walk into this plaza here tells the story of 9/11 -- 2,977 innocent lives were lost, 343 firefighters lost their lives and paramedics that day.

There's tremendous support through the community, and I think it will be an asset to the community.

It'll be a destination for learning.

I want people to know about this what happened on this day, so that we never forget.

We want people to be able to touch it, connect with it, and reflect on the loss of life that day, in hopes that it never happens again.

The footing for the artifact is in the shape of the Pentagon.

And we have all five branches of the service recognized in granite.

The Gold Star families are represented by the beige colored bricks.

And then the major walkway around the memorial is 50 inches, which represents one inch for each state in the union.

Then we have the silhouettes that identify the police officers, firefighters, the airplanes involved.

And we have the Angel of Mercy to represent the EMTs and firefighters, EMS people and nurses and doctors who went in and tried to save lives and lost theirs on that fateful day.

I want this to be a place where the school bus pulls up out here and parks and they drop off 30, 40 kids and they come up here and they read the reader board and they look at the memorial and sets them thinking about what could have been prevented and what they can do in the future to prevent this from happening again.

There's no videos here of the events of that day, the collapse of the towers.

This is the aftermath.

They can come and sit and reflect on that day and think about it.

Just be thankful that we live in a country where we're free and we can talk about things like this and we can remember our history.

There's been some people in the community have said, well, why here?

Why do we need something like this here?

That tragedy happened 3,000 miles away.

Yeah, it had happened 3,000 miles away to the east.

We had another tragedy that happened in Pearl Harbor that's 4,000 miles to the west.

You know, you remember Pearl Harbor.

They remember Pearl Harbor.

They remember World War II.

They remember Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq, and they're gong to remember this.

Because it's here in our community so that we have an opportunity to pay our respects every day that we walk by here to those who lost their lives for no good reason.

>> Tom Layson: The American public can hardly agree on anything, so making any specific statements about the lessons of 9/11 or what the ultimate verdict of history will be about the American response both domestically and internationally is probably impossible.

But as you well know by now, that won't stop us from talking about it.

And for that, we've enlisted the help of University of Washington Professor Resat Kasaba, who teaches international studies.

Professor Kasaba, welcome to Northwest Now.

Great to have a discussion with you about remembering 9/11 and some of the current events now that are shaping our thoughts about this as well.

I want to start though with a little background about yourself.

Tell us how you became interested in foreign policy and what your background is that brings you to us here today.

>> Mr. Kasaba: Well, thank you very much.

I was born in Turkey.

And I did my early education in that country.

And I came to the United States for graduate work.

And towards the end of my PhD -- which was in Upstate New York -- I applied for this job at University of Washington.

Which, of course, the Jackson School was a perfect fit.

I was interested in the Middle East and in Turkey, but my interest was more global.

Interested in its relationships with the other parts of the world, with the region.

And the Jackson School and the University of Washington offered me a tremendous environment, just to pursue my research, to teach, and also to do administration.

I was the director of the school for 10 years, which was really a very rewarding time.

In a way, it puts me sort of in the middle of some very important changes in the world between 2010 and 2020.

So it's been an interesting journey.

And I am now teaching, continuing to teach, and it's a great environment for me.

>> Tom Layson: One of the things that strikes me -- before we dive into some of the current events with Afghanistan and things -- is you're probably teaching students who were not alive in 2001 during 9/11, right?

>> Mr. Kasaba: Absolutely.

I mean, we were reminded of this, of course, recently with the latest casualties, US service people who were killed just last week.

And many of them were just babies when 9/11 happened.

And that is really a bit interesting.

When you think about it, 20 years is a long time.

And for us, of course, we remember.

We have personal memories.

But to talk about those things to students who don't really necessarily have that kind of personal memory can be challenging.

It's rewarding too in its own way.

>> Tom Layson: Yeah, it's certainly history they have to know.

Let's jump into current events here a little bit.

Just as coincidence would have it, here we approach the 20th anniversary, we're just about there, and we leave Afghanistan.

Was our decades' long engagement there -- do you believe that that - as some said -- has proven to be yet another nation-building mistake that America embarked on?

Did we serve a larger purpose?

Was the purpose may be over after the death of Osama bin Laden?

What's your take on how we should view and put Afghanistan into context?

>> Mr. Kasaba: Well, when I think about this, I think 9/11 happened at a very curious time in how the US was thinking about its role in the world.

It was after the Cold War, obviously.

And it was a time when people were not exactly sure what international relations would be like and what role the United States would play in it.

Before 9/11, there was a current of thought that advocated more prominent role for the US in rebuilding this post-Cold War world.

Which meant a lot of involvement in different parts of the world, changing institutions in different countries.

And sometimes people summarize this as making the world safe for democracy.

So I think the opportunity for that kind of big investment, big involvement, was not there.

And I think it's becoming clear now as some of these thinkers -- Donald Rumsfeld was one of them, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, they were really genuinely looking for an opportunity to put this kind of model in action.

I think 9/11 created an opportunity to both, you know, go in and punish Al Qaeda for 9/11 itself, but also to embark on a nation-building exercise, both first in Afghanistan and then in Iraq.

I think there were two problems there -- there were a lot of problems, but I think two important ones: they tried to do it on the cheap.

So there wasn't really that kind of an appetite to put too much money into these.

>> Tom Layson: A trillion dollars later and 20 years?

>> Mr. Kasaba: That's exactly true.

But if you think about the trillion dollars, just about I think 80% of it was spent on military, and a very small percentage went to actually to.

>> Tom Layson: So were the expectations wrong?

Did the neocons have it wrong, that this nation-building exercise and this spread of influence through -- was it folly?

>> Mr. Kasaba: I think it is -- I think -- well, when you look back, of course, after 20 years of failed interventions, it does look like a big mistake.

But I think at the time, some of these people really believed in this, that they could actually go in and do this and then create a world that would be easier, safer for the United States to operate in.

>> Tom Layson: To build a democracy in Afghanistan.

>> Mr. Kasaba: To build democracy.

And I think a lot of people mentioned this, and I think that is true.

There was reluctance actually to really put the time and energy to really learn about these places, to learn about their history, and to imagine how this all looks for the people on the ground, the Afghans and the Iraqis, for most of them, who are considerably poor, a lot of them are rural.

In Afghanistan, you are talking about a tribal society in many ways.

So this kind of approach from outside from halfway around the world, a lot of good intentions.

It really it's very hard to imagine how that might've worked.

And I think that was a big sort of experiment.

And as you mentioned, after $1 trillion, I think this is an opportunity to rethink how the US should be engaged in the world.

I think there is a role for the US to play, but I think it's an involvement that I think should be thought about in different ways than the military one.

>> Tom Layson: Let's talk a little bit about what you might call the remnants of 9/11.

This country here domestically, we ended up with the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security and taking our shoes off before we got onto an airplane, lots of changes here.

Will that be a lasting legacy, the evolution of the security state?

You know, Richard Snowden -- whatever your take may be on the leakers -- certainly helped expose it for what it is.

What is the takeaway from that?

Will we ever go back to normal, or not?

>> Mr. Kasaba: I think it will take a lot of effort.

Some of those things that you're mentioning I think is a result of this declaration that we were fighting terrorists.

And that was not really clear where this terror was and who these terrorists are.

And consequently, I think there was this sense that it can be anywhere.

It can be on the plane.

It can be the person sitting next to me, or, you know, whatever.

So combating this fear, this terror that's everywhere, we did put in a lot of measures that really in some ways restrict our freedoms and our movements.

>> Tom Layson: That's always the trade, right?

>> Mr. Kasaba: It's a trade.

And I think it will be a while for the United States, for the people in this country, to feel comfortable again.

And I think that will take some conscious effort on the part of the government to repair some of the damage that's been done.

>> Tom Layson: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed still has not been tried.

He is still down in Guantanamo Bay with a good couple of dozen of other permanent prisoners, basically, outside of the American judicial system and outside the international courts for now.

How does that get resolved?

And what message is America sending with that?

Are there any ramifications of that 20 years later and going forward?

>> Mr. Kasaba: Absolutely.

I mean, this is -- remember, we said that this was an exercise to make world safe for democracy and to bring democratic institutions.

And that was the overall plan, the vision.

But, of course, in practice, what has happened is Guantanamo is only one of those outcomes.

And all of this is very visible to the rest of the world.

People can see this idea that you can keep people in prison for 20 years without bringing charges, without really explaining why you're holding them and what you're going to do with them indefinitely.

And I believe there is some 30-some prisoners there still and they haven't been charged and brought to trial in any way.

So I think that really I see this as a steady corrosion of some of our values.

As I said, every single day that this passes, this is something that's very hard to explain to people in other parts of the world.

How does this compare with these many, you know, kind of beautiful image or vision of a democratic future for people?

>> Tom Layson: You know, you're the history professor and the international studies professor, but as you well know in history, you know, America's swing from global engagement to isolationism back and forth is pretty routine in some ways.

And you mentioned this rethinking possibly of America's role in the world.

Domestically speaking, you can really sense the shift toward an isolationist.

Let's let's suck it in a little bit.

We've got two oceans on both sides of us, plus Canada.

We're good.

>> Mr. Kasaba: Yes.

>> Tom Layson: Let's not do that.

How important is that going to be in politics going forward?

What's the role of isolationism?

Where do you see that pendulum?

>> Mr. Kasaba: I think -- I mean, I see the two related to each other.

I think what's going on domestically is not really separate from all the trouble, problems that the US is having outside in its international relations.

It's very clear that we have a lot of problems, problems that have to do with poverty and homelessness and racial inequalities and other issues, immigration.

And these are really very important public policy issues.

And I think these need to be somehow addressed in a real way to have some kind of a social purpose, common purpose, in this country, just both for domestic policy and also for US international engagement.

I don't think it is a zero-sum kind of relationship.

You can have engagement, and I think the US will have to have engagement with all parts of the world.

But this doesn't have to be done through primarily or solely military means.

I think there is a lot that the US can contribute and has contributed to all kinds of things all over the world.

So I think that is really an important thing to keep in mind.

So I strongly believe that isolationism is not really an option for the United States given its size and the wealth.

And, of course, that wealth has come to us through our international engagements.

Just about everything you think about in the United States, its production, its generation has some kind of relationship to other parts of the world.

So I think that's something to keep in mind.

>> Tom Layson: For those of us who lived through 9/11 and its aftermath -- one of the memories I have is how focused everybody became.

This great coming together for a while, in Congress and in the cities and the towns of this country.

But here we are again now 20 years later, policing each other on social media, with cancel culture, and selfies, and all this sort of American trivialism, if you will.

Has that changed in 20 years?

You talked about a lecture series you were doing at the time that might just illustrate that point.

>> Mr. Kasaba: Yes, 20 years ago, I think it actually months if not weeks after 9/11 happened, a group of us at the University of Washington decided that it would be good to share some of our knowledge about this part of the world that all of a sudden people were interested in now.

So what started as a relatively small almost like a brownbag discussion quickly grew.

And within two or three lectures, we had to move to larger and larger venues.

And the last several of these actually were held at the Hackett Pavilion, where people usually go to watch basketball games.

And for those of us who participated in those series, it was extraordinarily rewarding.

Not only because this was an opportunity for us to talk about what we care about and what we've been reading about and teaching about, but also to see this tremendous interest.

People coming from all over Puget Sound in the middle of the night on a weeknight to come and listen.

I don't remember any hackling.

I don't remember any demonstrations.

There was a genuine interest about why this happened and what's the background and what we can expect.

When you look back, of course, one of the biggest changes since that time is the social media, but it's also the use that people put social media to.

And just one example, of course, 9/11, for better or worse, did create the sense of common purpose.

Both the Senate and the House was strongly behind the administration and whatever response that they thought about.

Some of this, as I mentioned, was misguided.

But nevertheless, there was a common purpose.

If you think about last week when this bombing happened in Kabul, the first reaction on the part of a lot of people was to blame the US president as if he was the one to put the bomb, rather than asking about what was going on, what was the reasons.

>> Tom Layson: And for the past 20 years.

>> Mr. Kasaba: And for past 20 years.

And also immediately starting to think about this in political terms and what kind of, you know, benefits this or the other party could have.

And I think that's a tremendous change from 20 years ago.

>> Tom Layson: This is I think the big question in this.

If you were to take a timeline of American history and draw a line through September 11, 2001, is America after that date ascending, level, or descending?

It's a very broad question.

And it's a Rorschach test I think of the events and the aftermath.

How do you see it?

>> Mr. Kasaba: Well, I will the easy way out and I will say that it is changing.

It has obviously been moving into a new era.

And I think one of the probably most important issue in this next era is the US relations with China.

And I think it will depend on both what China does but also what the US does, whether we will see this as purely a new competitive kind of relationship, leading to maybe a new cold war.

Or, are we going to move into a new era where we can find ways of cooperating?

And a lot of important issues that we have to cooperate with.

Unlike the Soviet Union during the Cold War, China is a big economic power.

So there are some important differences between how China sees itself and what China's future is like and how US relations with China fit in that.

I think it is a -- and I'm saying a changing not because I don't want to answer, but I think it will depend on what the US but also China and other governments will do.

>> Tom Layson: How that relationship ends up looking -- symbiotic, combative.

>> Mr. Kasaba: Absolutely.

>> Tom Layson: And how hostile it becomes.

Last question for you.

What do you think the likely scenario is, or do you imagine one for the next 9/11?

To me it feels like cyber warfare.

We've been engaged in that.

Do you have any thoughts about that?

Do you ever ask yourself that question?

>> Mr. Kasaba: I do.

And i do also I agree that in this new era, cyber warfare will be more and more common.

Because, relatively speaking, it's easier and its damages can be much more long-lasting and destructive.

So I think that is something we have to be on the watch out all the time.

And it is something that we did in the Jackson School, trying to find ways of working with people on campus who are very good at the technical side of this and bringing them with our international relations experts.

So I think that is important.

In terms of another 9/11, there may be attempts, but it is not -- I think the major groups, like Al Qaeda, etcetera, are more interested in their local issues right now.

So i don't really see another spectacular attack like 9/11.

>> Tom Layson: We all hope you are right.

Professor Kasaba, thanks so much for coming to Northwest now.

>> Mr. Kasaba: Thank you, thank you very much.

>> Tom Layson: In some ways, 9/11 seems like a recent event, and in some ways, it seems like another lifetime ago.

Events like 9/11 have a way of doing that.

The bottom line, no matter what conclusions we each end up coming to over the years, our thoughts tonight are with the victims and their families who lost something that could never be replaced, in Manhattan, Shanksville, Pennsylvania, the Pentagon, and across the globe in the war against terror.

I hope this program got you thinking and talking.

To watch this program again or to share it with others, Northwest Now can be found on the web at kbtc.org.

And be sure to follow us on Twitter at Northwest Now.

Thanks for taking a closer look on this edition of Northwest Now.

Until next time, I'm Tom Layson.

Thanks for watching.

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