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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Abudato, this is, "Remember Them", and today we remember we kick off the program with my colleague Jacqui Tricarico, our co-anchor.

Jacqui, we remember Aaron Burr, why?

(Jacqui laughs) - Aaron Burr, complicated history there.

So many things that we know but also don't know about his life and his legacy, and specifically his relationship with George Washington.

Another, "Remember Them" that we've done recently on George Washington.

But Aaron Burr, being the third Vice President of the United States, his involvement with politics, his impact during the Revolutionary War, and his connection here to New Jersey in so many different ways.

He graduated Princeton at the age of 16, Steve, pretty incredible.

He was an intellect, he had a lot of important things to say.

Not a lot that everybody always agreed on, but we get to hear from Maxine Lurie, who was a history professor, but now is the chair of the New Jersey Historical Commission, who knows a lot of his history and shares some of the most important details.

- So, as Jackie lays it out, I talked to, you know, Maxine Lurie, but I asked Maxine in this interview that about to see, there's so much talk about the Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr duel in Weehawken.

Because in New York at the time, I believe, dueling was illegal.

Somehow, Jersey, the rules or laws were a little different.

That dual, what really happened, the boat ride back across the Hudson to New York, and how New Jersey played a critical role in Aaron Burr's life.

And controversial politician at a critical point in American history.

Conversation with Maxine Lurie, Dr. Maxine Lurie, we remember Aaron Burr.

(soft music) - We're now joined by Dr. Maxine Lurie, who is Professor Emerita of History at Seton Hall University, and the Chair of the New Jersey Historical Commission, one of our great partners in producing "Remember Them."

We would not be able to do this without their great support.

Doctor, let me ask you this.

My colleague, Jacqui Tricarico and I, talked a little bit about Aaron Burr, and his background, and some of the biographical information.

From your perspective, why is it important that we remember Aaron Burr?

- Well, he's usually not counted in the leading founding fathers, but he was there.

He played a role both in the service in the Continental Army during the war, and afterwards an important role in politics.

He was a vice president.

Vice presidents are really important right now.

And as vice president, and in terms of what happened in the election of 1800, it led to an amendment to the constitution.

He's later tried, actually, for treason, which put an emphasis on the rules for convicting somebody you need to have under the constitution two witnesses who actually can testify that something was done.

And John Marshall was the judge and used that in the trial.

- But Doctor, let me ask you, "The Burr Conspiracy" is the book behind me.

You're not connected to it in any way, but I've been reading this book, and trying to understand a little bit more about Aaron Burr.

The conspiracy to do what?

- Oh, I don't think historians have ever definitively figured that out.

(Steve laughing) Yes.

So he went out West after the incident with, if we wanna call it that, with Hamilton.

- Oh, was there an incident?

I hadn't heard that, Doctor.

(laughing) - I think that's the thing he's probably most famous for.

- Yes, yes, the duel over in Weehawken, please.

- Yeah, so he goes out West, and it's not clear totally what he's up to.

Does he wanna explore land?

Does he want to establish a separate country?

Is he conspiring with Spain, or with England?

He's up to something, and as I said.

- Is he escaping?

Is is he escaping after the duel in which Hamilton dies from the shot that Aaron Burr hit him with?

Is he escaping the law?

- He does right after, because he's wanted for murder in New York, and New Jersey.

So you have a vice president who really shouldn't appear in either one of those states, but by the time of the conspiracy business, or accusations pretty much had fizzled out.

So, you know, I think he's just looking for, it's not clear what he's looking for.

More territory?

Another role adding it for his own good, or for the United States property?

It's really not clear.

- He didn't get along with Jefferson, Hamilton, and other founding fathers, correct?

- Apparently, he could be very personable, but he did not get along with Washington.

He served on his staff, apparently, for all of, like, 10 days.

He did not get along with Hamilton.

And there's a book about their friendship, which argues in part that Hamilton in a sense was sometimes jealous of Burr.

There was a longstanding background behind the duel.

It wasn't just one incident.

He didn't get along with Jefferson because he supposedly was running for vice president in 1800, but when it landed in Congress to be decided, he doesn't step up say, no, I'm not actually a candidate for president.

He lets them go through the whole process of voting to decide who is.

- But, Dr. Lurie, let me understand this.

Let's put the duel on the table.

You know, going to see "Hamilton" when Hamilton was "Hamilton" on Broadway, that's one thing.

That's great entertainment.

Let's talk history.

As you said, Dr. Lurie, the history between Aaron Burr, and Alexander Hamilton was intense.

The personal animosity intense, longstanding, insults to each other, politically and personally.

At a certain point during that time a duel, and there had been many duels.

And it was illegal in New York.

Somehow New Jersey, our laws were more lax.

- It's illegal in New Jersey, too, but apparently they didn't enforce it.

They didn't enforce it as much.

- Are you saying in New Jersey we don't enforce our law?

No, I'll leave that alone, okay, but let me try this, lemme try this.

So here's the thing I never understood.

Was there an understanding, an implied understanding, unwritten, that even though they were having this duel along the Hudson River in Weehawken, that when they had their backs to each other, when they turned, and Hamilton shot up in the air, and Burr shot right at Hamilton hitting him in his torso, that he wasn't supposed to do that?

That he was supposed to go through the motions and not actually shoot, and ultimately kill Alexander Hamilton?

- Some historians have argued that, and Hamilton's supporters really blamed Burr for his actions.

It's not clear.

It's not clear if Hamilton shoots by accident after he's hit.

The shots were apparently so close together.

And then the witnesses were, you know, supporters of one side, or the other side.

So that's, I think that's not really totally clear.

Dueling is not uncommon at this point.

Washington had problems with officers during the revolution who would get angry at each other and have a duel, which he did not, you know, appreciate, to put it mildly.

And this helps increasingly to make dueling unpopular, and less practiced in the North than the South.

It continues in the South for much longer.

And I think the other thing, too, is they both had to know it was a risk.

Hamilton's son was killed about two years earlier in a duel, so going into it.

- Same location.

- Yeah, they had to know.

- Same... Burr ran for a lot of offices.

He ran for the state legislature.

He ran for the U.S Senate, ran for president, ran for a lot of offices.

Was he a frustrated politician in the early phases, the early phase of the development of our country?

Was he frustrated that he wasn't more successful?

- Um, I don't know because he actually is...

He is successful to some extent.

He is elected senator from New York.

He is elected, he becomes the vice president.

So he had won what were really, I think, important prestigious offices at that point.

So I don't know that you can blame it on that.

I know what you're saying, but I'm not sure.

- Well, lemme ask you this.

Professor, when he is vice, he runs fourth in 1796, fourth place, and tied Jefferson for the presidency in the very controversial and significant election of 1800.

How the heck does he become vice president?

He doesn't run with Jefferson.

He runs against Jefferson.

And then he's Jefferson's vice president.

And does that not change our country's electoral tradition and policy that you have to run in a bracketed fashion, a president and vice president?

So you don't have these people who don't like each other, who don't wanna be together and ran against each other serving as president, vice president.

Go ahead, please.

- I think you have to understand several things.

First of all, party politics is really just starting.

It comes out of the 1790s.

So that's one of the factors in the background.

Secondly, the constitution as it was originally written, the electoral college, all the electors voted for two people.

They didn't have to designate which one was president, and which one was vice president.

And in the election of 1800, all of them that were Jeffersonian Republicans voted for both Jefferson and Burr.

One person should have not, but they didn't wanna risk then, you know, somebody else being elected, so they both vote.

And so then there's a tie.

And people have argued that Burr should have said, I'm running for vice president.

I'm not running for president.

And he never says that.

So it goes to Congress.

They vote by state.

Each state has one vote.

36 ballots before the tie is broken when a couple states stand down, and they don't put any vote in.

Alexander Hamilton is actually in the background working to help Jefferson win because as much as he dislikes Jefferson, he distrusts Hamilton more, so really it's.

- He distrusts Burr even more.

Hold on, he distrusts Burr.

- He distrusts Burr, I'm sorry.

He distrusts Burr, yes.

- And that was part of, again, only reading from you and others.

- Yeah.

- When Hamilton went against Burr, even though he didn't like Jefferson, that was part of the fuel to the duel.

- That and the fact that Hamilton also worked to make sure that Burr was not elected governor of New York when he ran in New York.

So yeah, it's a political rivalry at a point in our history when as nasty as our politics are today, they could be very heightened at that point, too.

And the outcome of this election then is the 12th Amendment, which says from that time on electors have to cast separate ballots.

One for the president, and one for the vice president, so you wouldn't end up with the same kind of situation.

- Dr. Maxine Lurie, Professor Emeritus of History at Seton Hall University, and the chair of the New Jersey Historical Commission.

Dr. Lurie, I wanna thank you so much for joining us, and helping us remember Aaron Burr.

- Thank you.

Thank you for asking me.

- We'll be right back right after this.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

And "Remember Them" now remembers Associate Justice of the Supreme Court in the great state of New Jersey, Marie Garibaldi.

Jacqui, did you, I mean, I knew Marie and back in the day as a great jurist, and we talk to Jim Zazzali, who's a terrific lawyer who knew her well.

What did you learn about Marie Garibaldi that was striking to you?

- Well, she was a long time Weehawken resident here in New Jersey, but she was the first female member of the New Jersey Supreme Court when she was appointed by Governor Kean in 1982.

And she also was the first woman to be president of the New Jersey State Bar Association.

So huge accomplishments.

She did so much for women in politics and women, you know, women justices to moving forward here in New Jersey and just such a strong leader.

And you talk with Justice Zazzali about some of her biggest accomplishments while she was on the bench as well.

- And the other thing, Jacqui, that I always knew about Marie Garibaldi, there would be back in the day when it was called Columbus Day, Christopher Columbus Day, we had a great parade in the city of Newark where I was born and raised up, up Bloomfield Avenue was the biggest in the state and one of the biggest in the country, yes, across the river New York, is big.

But I gotta tell you, I never missed a Columbus Day parade without seeing Marie Garibaldi.

She was always there.

She was so proud of her Italian American heritage.

She went to Italy many, many times.

She was a trailblazer.

She made a difference.

She was a jurist who mattered in the state.

She broke the gender barrier both in the Supreme Court, and as Jacqui said, at the State Bar Association as its first president.

We remember Justice Marie Louise Garibaldi.

(soft music) - We are honored, honored to be joined by James Zazzali who's the former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court in the great state of New Jersey.

Remembering his good friend, a terrific jurist.

Excuse me.

Justice Marie Garibaldi.

Good to see you, your honor.

- My pleasure.

My pleasure, Steve.

Thank you for having me.

- Hey, Jim, you and I have known each other a long time.

We've been in certain circles, and I am not in your legal circle, but I know that from talking to folks that Marie Garibaldi was respected by so many for so many reasons.

Why do you remember and respect her so much?

- Well, it's for a myriad reasons.

I go back to what Chief Justice Rabner said at the time of her passing, that she had an extraordinary curiosity, which she maintained until the, for the rest of her life, of her life.

But he emphasized the fact that she was not simply first that mattered.

It was how she was first and what she did.

And that really morphs into a comment or a continues the discussion by quoting another Chief Justice, Chief Justice Poritz, saying everything she did with style and what she did with style and with grace.

But I recall too, being more specific, her great qualities.

She had an exceptional demeanor, extraordinary demeanor, great with everybody on off the bench onto the very end of her life.

And she also showed great common sense and good judgment.

Those essential qualities, of course, she got to the, we could talk later about how she got to the bench, but it was those qualities among many others that contributed to her appointment.

she got to the Supreme Court in large part because of Tom Kean.

- Right.

There's no question that- - Governor Kean.

Tom Kean was interested in appointing the first woman chief, the first woman justice, and he accomplished that.

But it wasn't simply that because there were many other qualified women, but Marie really stood out.

First, she had an exceptional reputation because of the qualities that go into making a great jurist, a great human being.

She was, had a very fine intellect.

Her demeanor, as I suggested, was exceptional.

Her work ethic was unbelievable.

She was in her office every morning at 6:45.

This is for all those almost 20 years she was on the bench, always ahead of her clerks.

No clerk ever beat her to the punch.

And then of course, honesty and integrity and her reputation for that.

Now when you end at, so this statewide reputation really helped her.

So did the fact of course, that she was the first, another first, where she was a trailblazer.

She was the first president of the New Jersey State Bar Association.

And those two, those factors in combination, I think caught Tom Kean's eye.

I believe he knew her.

Look, I'm not saying that she was, and neither would anyone else say that she was the absolutely best woman to be appointed that could be appointed.

No one could say that.

But what I can say safely is that I don't think anyone else was better qualified.

She was great.

- She dissented on the Supreme Court, on the landmark opinion, the decision of the Supreme Court on school funding Abbott versus Burke.

She did not believe and wrote in her dissent that the state of New Jersey should be, through the thorough and efficient edict in the 1947 Constitution, providing more state dollars to certain communities, certain school districts under Abbot versus Burke.

She did not believe that.

She was considered tough on crime, but she also, in a right to die case, Judge Zazzali, she had a very tough decision in 1987, having to do with the right to die for patients on life sustaining machines or feeding tubes.

Her consideration of a case like that on a right to die connected back to her being a devout Catholic.

Judge?

- Well, I suspect that her commitments to her faith had a lot to do with that.

But, you know, it's clear what she did if we're talking about the same case she ruled- - Yes.

- That a person that is on life support, life sustaining support has the right to go off that.

- She did, she did.

- The hospital policies that said you can't do this.

So what she did is to take a more, and this is interesting coming from a conservative Republican as she was, but she was not afraid to break ranks and come to the middle or even go to the more progressive thinking on the court at the time.

Bottom line though, putting you all that aside, she held that the right to go, the right of privacy, which is really what that's all about supersedes hospital policies.

And she was absolutely correct in that regard.

I don't think, look at these outside influences, whether it's religion or other factors, no question about it.

And every judge would, could see that is always there.

You think about it, and we take into consideration life factors, but at the end of the day, what we do is make the decision on the basis of the law and the facts and the equities.

And that's what you did in that case.

And that's what we try to do in all our cases.

- Last question for you, Judge.

The fact that Justice Garibaldi was Italian-American mattered as well.

She was active in Italian-American organization.

She was proud of her heritage.

There were not many Italian-American women who reached anywhere near the level she did in the judiciary.

But the other part about her that I find fascinating, and correct me if you think I'm wrong about this, she was a pragmatic jurist.

And I'm not gonna get into decisions by the United States Supreme Court on a whole, I'm not gonna do that.

But I will say this, she was not a partisan, you said she was a conservative Republican, but she was not a hardcore ideologue dedicated to anyone political, Republican or Democrat or anyone.

She was a practical, pragmatic, common sense jurist.

Judge, is that a fair assessment?

- Absolutely.

But taking your very preliminary comment first, she was proud of her heritage.

As a matter of fact, little known, little known fact is that she was trying to learn Italian during her later years.

And indeed a couple of her law clerks I understand tried to teach her Italian.

I don't know how far they got.

But turning to the more important part of your question, she was clearly a pragmatist.

And what she did is that, as I would say, as often as not, but let's say very often if justice required it, she came to the middle.

She had a moderating influence.

She was aware of the fact that consensus is important and that if at all possible, the ideal is unanimity, - not unanimity in a decision 7-0, for the sake of unanimity.

But when you have a unanimous decision, and she often did get the entire court behind her, when you have a unanimous opinion or decision, it really results in a great deal of credibility in that decision.

Credibility on the part of the bar, the public, the rest of the bench.

- And on that note, the fact that, and I'm not gonna do any commentary here, but I'll say this.

With so many people having so little trust and respect for the judicial system as we speak, so many people questioning the motives of judges, of jurists and tough decisions, people like Justice Marie Garibaldi, who allowed the facts and the law and the Constitution to dictate how she decided on cases may be more important than ever before.

To the former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court here in the great state of New Jersey, James Zazzali, a longtime friend who has been with us many times, check out previous interviews we've done with him, honoring his friend and colleague, Justice Marie Garibaldi, on Remember Them slash One-on-One.

Thank you, Jim.

We wish you all the best, Judge.

- Thank you.

Keep up the fine work.

Take care.

- Very thankful that you're saying that 'cause you're the one who's decided a lot of tough cases, not me.

All the best.

On behalf of everyone on our team and my colleague Jacqui Tricarico, Steve Adubato, we'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSEG Foundation.

NJM Insurance Group.

Hackensack Meridian Health.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Seton Hall University.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

The Russell Berrie Foundation.

And by The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by ROI-NJ.

NJM Insurance Group has been serving New Jersey businesses for over a century.

As part of the Garden State, we help companies keep their vehicles on the road, employees on the job and projects on track, working to protect employees from illness and injury, to keep goods and services moving across the state.

We're proud to be part of New Jersey.

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