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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone, Steve Adubato, with my colleague, Jacqui Tricarico.

Jacqui, two authors today who are no longer with us, but still a great impact with their writing.

Second half is about Philip Roth.

We'll talk about him later.

This one is about F. Scott Fitzgerald and the book over my left shoulder.

The author you spoke to, tell everyone all about it.

- Yeah, David S. Brown wrote that book, "Paradise Lost," all about F. Scott Fitzgerald's life.

And, really, he goes so in depth about his childhood, his adolescence years, his obsession, and just his overall- - Obsession with what?

- To Princeton, Princeton University.

- Okay.

- That part of New Jersey, why he wanted to get into the university so badly that he retook his test to get in several times.

He failed a bunch of times (chuckles) and finally got in.

- Hold on.

Didn't he quit?

Hold on.

Didn't he quit?

(laughs) - Yes, but then he also didn't even graduate.

But just what Princeton did for him in terms of shape so much of his writing, as well.

We know several of his novels, but one that resonates with a lot of people, who a lot of people have read is called "The Great Gatsby."

A film was later created with Leonardo DiCaprio.

A great film.

But, you know, "Great Gatsby" was something that he wrote- - Why no money up front, Jacqui?

Sorry to interrupt you.

Why did it not get well received and then somehow later he made money off it?

- You know, it just wasn't well read at the time.

People weren't picking up, it wasn't getting the traction that he wanted.

It wasn't until after his passing that so many more people were reading it.

It got, you know, so many more publications of it, gotten in a lot of hands of people all over the, not just the United States, but all over the world.

And it's become one of those novels that I think we're all asked to read in high school.

I don't know if it's still, but I know I was.

(laughs) - But, Jacqui, he was obsessed.

And, again, in "The Great Gatsby," as I understand it, in watching the movie, F. Scott Fitzgerald was fascinated by jazz.

And so there's a big jazz theme in this, as well.

Is that a fair assessment?

- Yeah.

Not just jazz, but just the evolution- - That period?

- Yeah, that period, the new money that was coming in, people that were wealthy in New York and are in that area, which he became one of those people, one of those socialites, if you will.

Really intrigued by that whole lifestyle and what was happening during that time in American culture.

- Is that the twenties?

- Yes, the twenties, the roaring twenties.

- The roaring twenties, not these twenties.

(Jacqui laughs) Those twenties.

- Exactly.

- So this is, Jacqui, who again, is quickly becoming the real star of "Remember Them."

But I wanna say this, this is an interview Jacqui did with David Brown, the author of "Paradise Lost: A Life of F. Scott Fitzgerald."

Check out Jacqui and Mr. Brown, talking about F. Scott Fitzgerald.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator] Considered one of the greatest American writers of the 20th century, F. Scott Fitzgerald's novels and short stories are closely linked to the jazz age, a phrase that Fitzgerald himself coined to describe the 1920s.

He was schooled in New Jersey, attended Newman school in Hackensack and Princeton University, which figured prominently in his novel "This Side of Paradise."

It was through his best known book, "The Great Gatsby," that Fitzgerald went on to inspire countless writers.

His formative years spent in New Jersey make him a welcome edition for the Hall of Fame and a literary role model for young writers everywhere.

(upbeat music continues) - Joining us now is David S. Brown.

He is the author of "Paradise Lost: A life of F. Scott Fitzgerald."

And David, you're also a history professor.

You've written several books about American historical figures.

Why F. Scott Fitzgerald?

What drew you to him in wanting to write this book?

- So when I was in graduate school, I read one of his novels, "Tender is the Night."

It really meant a lot to me, and then I was researching another book.

I was in a used bookstore in Madison, Wisconsin, and I came across a copy of his letters, and very, very emotional, very personal.

Also, they shed an interesting light on not just his life but his writings, and so that drew me in.

So I knew I had to finish a couple projects, but I was eventually gonna come to an F. Scott Fitzgerald biography.

- This biography, it is in depth.

It just goes from the beginnings all the way through till his death and even past that point.

Such an in-depth book that you've wrote here about F. Scott Fitzgerald.

Part of that story is how we see his own life and the impact of American culture that it had in his writings.

Describe that and how we see those as major themes throughout all of his novels.

- Yeah, I learned when I started to research and write the book that historians really hadn't done a lot with F. Scott Fitzgerald.

Lit people had.

People in the English department at my college, they had worked with F. Scott Fitzgerald, and I think that that was something fresh that I could bring to it, which was my knowledge of American history.

So the way that actually approached Fitzgerald was not just as this great novelist or short story writer but as a cultural historian, and so, for example, in "The Great Gatsby," I think that he has a lot to say about American history, cultural history in the 1920s, observations about the First World War.

I'm not saying that this was first and foremost in his mind, but it's there.

He was very much a product of his times, and he recorded his history in very, I think, you know, interesting, even comprehensive ways.

- And you bring up "The Great Gatsby" and other works of his.

Was "Great Gatsby" his most important or his his greatest accomplishment in your viewpoint, or were there other ones that often get left to the side or not talked about as much?

- Sure.

In his own time, his best seller was his first novel, "This Side of Paradise," which he wrote when he was in his early 20s, and I believe at the time of his death, it sold about 50 or 60,000 copies.

"Great Gatsby" was not a great seller by in stretch of the imagination.

In fact, Fitzgerald was disappointed because he felt that he would've to sort of write down to an audience because they didn't seem to get Gatsby the way that they got his earlier novels.

So for me, "Gatsby," it's a great teaching tool with students.

I teach a course on Fitzgerald, and I use that.

I suppose, though, my personal favorite is still "Tender is the Night."

- And what is the basis of "Tender is the Night"?

- So he wrote this off and on for a number of years.

It was published in the 1930s in the Great Depression, and the backdrop is his marriage to Zelda, his wife, and he puts that to the novel.

He puts a lot of friends into the novel, and it's about the destruction of relationships, in one sense, but I think more broadly, and I'll go back to this notion of Fitzgerald being a cultural historian, it's really about what had been happening to the West, Western civilization for a very long period of time.

Fitzgerald was interested in the notion of decline, and so he records that in this novel.

World War I is very much a backdrop.

He was a college student throughout most of the war, was in the uniform but never got over, and he thinks about this notion of the destruction of Western civilization, the war, his declining health, the declining health of his wife and their relationship.

It's a very impactful, very powerful novel on a lot of levels.

- Let's talk a little bit more about Zelda, his wife, and just that relationship and what ultimately happened to Zelda.

Describe that for us 'cause you do write extensively about that in your book, but describe his relationship with his wife Zelda and how ultimately what happened impacted him so much in his writing.

- Sure.

So she was a Southern belle, and when he was in the Army, he did some training in Alabama, and that's where he met her.

She was from a distinguished family.

Her father was on the Alabama State Supreme Court.

On the mother's side, there was a 19th century Kentucky senator, and it was a very strong relationship.

It was a relationship that, according to their daughter, Scottie, was not a healthy relationship.

Zelda probably should not have married Scott.

It was not in the best interest of her health, of her mental health.

She was a belle, but she was also this very interesting writer and thinker.

Working with an artist, F. Scott Fitzgerald, they could be competitive together on lots of levels.

They were a kind of a very early iteration of a star couple and sort of chasing notoriety, headlines in the newspapers, getting pushed in that direction as very young people, and it wasn't a very healthy relationship in that sense.

It really wasn't a very healthy marriage in that sense, but unlike other people like Hemingway, who had several wives, the Fitzgeralds never divorced, stuck together.

Zelda I think had an impact on his writing pretty much throughout.

In the flapper stories at the beginning through "Tender is the Night" in the 1930s, she herself was a writer as well.

- And she ultimately was institutionalized.

Is that correct, and when did that happen in their marriage?

How old was she when she was institutionalized?

- Yeah, this happened on several occasions, always at her discretion.

She voluntarily put herself into institutions.

She was never forced to do this, although, you know, we might wonder how much of an impact her husband had, you know, for example, in conversation in talking with her.

Much of this happened in her 30s and 40s and she would be institutionalized in North Carolina, in Baltimore.

Fitzgerald would live sometimes with their daughter Scottie very close by.

It was a very, very difficult time, clearly for Zelda but also for both of them, and that's really where Zelda's life comes to an end.

There's a fire in Asheville, North Carolina in an institution where she's at, and this is in the late 1940s, and she does not survive the fire.

Very tragic end.

- You're right about that.

In terms of what he was looking for, a theme that we saw a lot in his life was kind of chasing this American dream, in a way, if you will, the new money, the class, all these things.

Is that what really drove him to coming to New Jersey, specifically Princeton University.

Something that he really wanted to accomplish is to be at Princeton University.

He was able to do that, right?

Didn't necessarily graduate from there, but that impact on him and his writing is pretty substantial, correct?

- Yeah, it's absolutely vital, particularly to his early writings.

So I think the Princeton access is actually kind of a southern access because his mother's family was from the Midwest, and they had some money, but it was merchant money, and Fitzgerald was a romantic.

So he was interested in merchant money, and his father didn't really come from money, but it was a Southern Catholic background, and Fitzgerald always, you know, kind of prized that romance of the Old South.

Unlike Harvard and Yale, who drew, I think, most of their students from the prep schools in New England, Princeton took a lot of its students' freshman class from prep schools in the South.

So if Fitzgerald sort of equated Princeton in some sense as kind of a quasi-Southern institution, and so you're correct, he doesn't graduate.

He was there for four years.

He really wasn't there, I think, to take a bachelor's degree.

If it happened, fine, but he wrote plays.

They were produced, and they traveled as far west as St. Louis, college productions.

He wrote for the college paper, college magazines.

It was really apprentice work, and he made it pay.

I mentioned earlier that his first novel was his most popular novel in his lifetime, really made his name, "This Side of Paradise."

That's basically F. Scott Fitzgerald romanticizing his Princeton experience.

- Definitely, yeah.

I've seen that in that book specifically.

So lastly, David, what do you think is the most important thing that we should know about F. Scott Fitzgerald?

- You know, we talk about the American dream, and we talk about "The Great Gatsby."

I think to approach that novel and Fitzgerald, you know, candidly is to recognize that, while he was writing in some sense about the American dream, he was actually very critical of the American dream, this notion of what it had turned into.

The old American dream he embraced, that is social mobility, rags to riches, do it on your own.

But what he saw in the late 19th century, early 20th century was how money, materialism became the be all and the end all.

And so what Gatsby is chasing is not really money.

Gatsby is chasing some great thing that used to exist in the past, but it doesn't exist any longer because Fitzgerald says, "America's really no longer the land of opportunity like it used to be a land of opportunity."

So to the extent that "The Great Gatsby" is about the great American dream, in a sense, it's a dream deferred.

It's a dream that had seen its better days.

- David, thank you so much for joining us and giving us such an insight into one of America's greatest literary novelists.

So thank you so much.

- Good to be with you.

- Thank you.

Stay with us, we'll be right back after this.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

Jacqui, now we take a look at another important author out of Newark, New Jersey, Philip Roth.

You see two books over my shoulder from Roth.

This book, "Patrimony," loved this book.

"I Married a Communist," trust me, fascinating.

And "The Human Stain," Philip Roth.

There's a whole section in this library up here, all about Roth.

I did this interview, set this interview I did up, a few years back, 2021, with Rosemary Steinbaum, my trustee from the Newark Library.

What was the connection between Roth and the Newark Public Library?

- Yeah, Steve, we thought it would be a great way to take a look at that interview you did back in 2021, because it's still is so important today to talk about Philip Roth and his lasting legacy.

He added the Philip Roth personal library at Newark Public Library.

So many of his novels there, I think he wrote over 30 novels, if I'm not mistaken, right, Steve?

- 31 to be exact.

- 31, okay.

31 novels.

But, he was born in Newark.

Newark was his home for many years.

And I know, Steve, Philip Roth just has a special place in your heart in terms of his lasting legacy and many of the novels that he wrote, right?

- Yeah.

Well, I was born and raised in the North Ward of Newark, which was, at the time, an Italian-American neighborhood.

Roth was raised in the Weequahic section of Newark, which at the time, way, way, way back in the day had a large Jewish population.

And growing up, if you grew up in Newark, you heard Philip Roth was one of the first, other than Robert Treat, the founder of Newark, one of the first names you would hear because he was a famous Newarker.

And as a kid going to the Newark Public Library, they added something called the New Jersey Resource Reference Room that I would go for all my research for- - You've talked about that other times, you've spent a lot of time in that library (chuckles) during all your years in school.

- But Roth, that was Roth.

Everything about that research, everything about wanting to write.

And I'm not saying it's the only reason I wound up writing books later on because of Roth, 'cause my books are very different.

But the bottom line is this, Roth influenced a lot of Newarkers, a lot of folks, and he was fascinated by the Jewish community, fascinated by Newark in that neighborhood.

And also, and again, his books are all about how many people in the Jewish community left Newark.

Complicated stuff.

Roth, a fascinating figure.

We're gonna hear from Ms. Steinbaum, Rosemary Steinbaum, from the Newark Public Library talking about the great Philip Roth.

Can't forget him, gotta remember him.

- We are honored to be joined by Rosemary Steinbaum, who is a trustee of the Newark public library.

And by the way, I put my glasses on because we are doing a literary segment and I have the illusion that it makes me appear smarter or more literary.

Hey listen, what room are you in right now?

- I'm sitting in the Philip Roth Personal Library, at the Newark Public Library on Washington street, in the great city of Newark.

- All right, let everyone know, by the way, just show everyone.

I went into my library to get all my Philip Roth books.

Right, you see them here, right?

Except my favorite Goodbye, Columbus, and Portnoy's Complaint.

We talked about that before.

What does Philip Roth have to do with Newark?

And why is he part of our quote, New Jersey Leaders Who Matter whether they're with us or gone to another place?

Why is he so important to Newark New Jersey and the nation, and the world?

- Well, he wrote about 30 novels.

Many of them are set in Newark as you well know, many in the old Jewish neighborhood, but in settings throughout the city and the old Italian North Ward and throughout the city.

He's an important novelist of the second half of the 20th century and the first part of the 21st century.

Partly because of the vigor of his narrative voice, because of the ways he uses, and shifts, narration in his novels.

Which becomes kind of a primer on how to read great novels.

His sense of place, whether it's Newark or anywhere else in the world is pitch perfect.

And he offers interesting, insights into the historic events, of his era.

And I think that those portals make him an important writer.

- So Roth died in 2018, correct?

- Right.

- To what degree do you believe Philip Roth understood, how important he was and continues to be for so many Newarkers.

Not those who just happened to be Jewish and from the neighborhood he came from, but to so many of us connected to Newark.

And frankly he, spoke for so many in the city, particularly of a certain time.

Do you think he understood his importance?

- I do.

He, wanted his library here.

The last thing in the world he wanted was a shrine in upstate Connecticut, where he lived.

He wanted to return to Newark.

And not only because of his own personal affiliation with the library and the city, but because of just what you said, Steve.

Because he's important to so many people, in and around Newark.

We have visitors to this space who fly in from Chicago, through Newark Airport and detour to see the Roth library.

- Roth, controversial from your perspective?

- Sure.

- And I don't want to assume your answer is a large part of what was controversial about Philip Roth, his 'relationship with women and how he wrote about them.'

- Well, that's been a huge area of investigation.

Roth was an extremely complex person.

And because of how he wrote, and because of people's interest in the author behind the writing, a lot of his complexity was just out there.

Out there in the public sphere for conversation.

I too, don't want to parse, the question of misogyny, but it's out there as a question.

I knew Roth.

I know him well.

- You did.

- Yes.

And I can tell you he was not a misogynist and I could go on about that for too long.

- No, but what personally, so you interacted with him on a whole range of situations, circumstances over several years, correct?

- Correct.

- How would you describe his personality?

Not his writing, but his personality with you.

- He was always entirely gracious, very, very funny, completely present, there wasn't a half a line that could get by him.

When you talk to Roth he'd listened to you utterly and you better be listening to him, just as carefully.

- Wow!

Do you make me wish, Rosemary that I ever had, I had a chance to over these 30 years of doing this to sit down with Philip Roth, to be obsessed by him, to read about him, to read his work, forget about me, but more importantly, put in perspective, the library you're in and how unique it is and not a whole bunch of Philip Roth libraries all over the place.

- I don't think there are a whole bunch of libraries, dedicated, to the reading life.

of an author in our time.

To enter this space is to get into the mind of a working writer.

- What's there by the way?

We're going to put up the website of the library as we speak.

What's around you right now?

It's not just what he wrote.

- All of Philip Roth's books, and all of his books with marginalia.

So that, and I'll give you one example behind me.

You're not gonna be able to see it on the screen, is a book jacket.

And the book jacket is of a book called The Nightmare Decade by a Rutgers historian named Fred Cook.

It's about the McCarthy era.

Well, you've read I Married a Communist.

You know, the McCarthy era is deep, deeply embedded in that book.

So as we opened the book we saw on the inside of the book jacket, Roth's notes for writing, I Married a Communist.

When can you get inside the writer's process in that way?

- And does, I also know there was a book written about Roth by the so-called communist he was married to, if I'm not mistaken.

(laughs) Yeah, you're laughing because you didn't think I knew that.

- I know you know what's up.

- And there was a real fight, back and forth that some people would say, what should it be private, but became very public through this literature.

And one book was a really significant book.

It was Roth that's all I'm going to say.

Hey Rosemary, let me ask you this.

Tell people right now why they should come to the Newark Public Library to the Roth Personal Library.

- It's unique.

It's a way to get under the skin of and inside the mind of, one of our era's most important writers.

If one fashions, one self, a writer hopes to be a writer.

It's a place to find inspiration, information, solace.

There's a lot here for writers to identify with, and all of us are readers and to see a person read, so publicly is thrilling.

- Rosemary Steinbaum trustee of The Newark Public Library cannot thank you enough.

You honor us by your presence and our conversation about an extraordinary author, Philip Roth.

- Thanks you for having me, Steve.

It's a pleasure.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

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