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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato with my co-anchor, Jacqui Tricarico.

Jacqui, we remember someone from whom all of us heard about kindergarten, first grade, George Washington, the father of our country.

But in this "Remember Them," people say, well, why is a New Jersey based media operation remembering George Washington?

We do an interview with John Avlon, who is a former CNN commentator, historian, wrote this book, "Washington's Farewell: The Founding Father's Warning to Future Generations."

This is a powerful book.

Avlon talks about this historically significant figure, and it's way more than crossing the Delaware.

Talk about the Jersey connection first.

- George Washington spent more time in New Jersey than anywhere else during the Revolutionary War.

There's so many historical landmarks all throughout the state.

In Trenton, in Princeton, where I live, there's so much history here, in Morristown.

There's just so much that connects us in New Jersey, back to George Washington, back to the Revolutionary War and the significance, New Jersey, the part that New Jersey played during that time period.

And it's just really important to note that, you know, you talk so much about Washington with John Avlon, but specifically about that farewell address.

But there was so much about Washington that we didn't get into, and one of those things is that he was mostly self-educated.

I thought that was interesting and you know, he really went on to be such a crucial, important part of American history.

- And to Jacqui's point, it's so interesting, Washington a general, Revolutionary War, a reluctant president, did not want to be president, much less be the president twice.

He also left office.

You hear Avlon talk about this.

People go, "Why is there a two term limit?"

Washington could have stayed president, king, emperor.

Washington said, "No, we need to move on."

And He moved on because he knew that it was about the presidency and the country, not about him.

The other thing is this, we talk about Washington's farewell, Jacqui.

He wrote an address, spoke about it, and remember, at the time, hard to get information out.

That address was about the danger of moving forward in our country, the danger of political parties being polarized, the danger of us as a nation being polarized, the difficulty keeping democracy, a representative democracy going.

Think about how far back that was, Jacqui.

Washington knew way, way ahead of January 6th, or any other event you wanna say makes it clear how polarized and separate and hateful politics has become, which has been so dangerous to our country.

Somehow Washington knew.

Jacqui said self-educated.

She's right.

But that did not mean he wasn't an intellectual, he was.

He understood.

This is John Avlon, who's also an intellectual, brilliant author, terrific book.

Go out and get "Washington's Farewell."

This is John Avlon talking about the great first president of these United States, the father of our country, George Washington.

- We are honored to be joined once again by our good friend John Avlon, who is a former CNN analyst.

and author of an extraordinary book, Washington's Farewell Address, the Founding Father's Warning to Future Generations.

Good to see you, John.

- Thank you, Steve.

Good to see you.

And I appreciate the kind words about the book.

- Well, love this book been marking it up for months- leading up to this.

- Yeah.

Put in context for everyone, John, what George Washington's Farewell Address was, why it's more important in 2024, and beyond than ever before.

- Sure, this was George Washington's last political will and testament.

It was a letter he wrote to his friends and fellow citizens after setting the precedent of leaving the presidency, the peaceful transfer of power, the two-term tradition.

But what was interesting is he didn't write this as a valedictory address.

He wrote it as a warning, as you said, to future generations about the forces he feared could destroy our democratic republic.

And the reason it's so urgent, despite the fact that it's gone from being the most famous civic document in our nation to being largely forgotten, is because his warnings were so pressing.

It's as if he was writing to us.

He warned, specifically, about what we would call hyper-partisanship, what they called faction.

He warned against the dangers of excessive debt and foreign wars and foreign interference in our elections.

This is all stuff that's ripped from the headlines, right?

Stuff we're dealing with today.

And so it shows the wisdom of the founding generation, how they were drawing on the lessons of history constructing our democratic republic.

And we need to heed that warnings.

The good news is that we can also draw on some of the wisdom he put forward about how we can strengthen our democratic republic, how we can come back from those dangers.

Things like embracing political moderation, fiscal responsibility, virtue, morality, a foreign policy of independence, asserting the strength of the middle, not letting our politics be hijacked by the extreme.

So, those are all incredibly relevant things.

- You know, you know, as little kids, Father of our country, George Washington, cherry tree, the Delaware, crossing it, all important.

But George Washington could have, after serving two terms, he could have stayed.

He could have stayed.

The significance, John Avlon, of George Washington opting to step aside, was he 64?

- Yeah.

- Opting to step aside at 64, knowing that stepping aside and moving on and not being president for whatever- - Yeah.

- Dictator, emperor.

Read into that what you will folks.

Why was that and is that so incredibly important to who we are as a nation today and what we need to be moving forward?

- Steve, it is such a final revolutionary act that puts a capstone on the Revolutionary War and how America is different, not just because we're founded on an idea and not a tribal identity, but because Washington voluntarily left power after two terms.

There's nothing in the Constitution at the time that said he had to.

And the book begins with a quote from Jefferson who said, "The character and moderation "and virtue of one man probably stopped our nation, "our revolution from being usurped," I believe he says, "as many others have by a liberator "who becomes a new kind of tyrant."

I'm paraphrasing, but that's what happens in revolutions typically.

And it was the character virtue in moderation of Washington that helped them set that precedent of leaving voluntarily after two terms.

That's what makes America, America, the idea that we step up for a time and then we voluntarily leave power because this is what citizens in a democratic republic do.

It's fundamental.

Until recently, I think we've taken it for granted.

But it is a great act.

And King George actually said in England, after he heard about that, he said, "If he does that, "he'll be the greatest man who ever lived."

- Washington's Farewell Address was 6,080 and 88 words.

- Yeah, - I know that because you said that in the book and the Gettysburg Address, 272 words.

Connect the two of those historic, iconic, important speeches.

Why am I asking that question, John?

- Well, I raised this point because the Washington's Farewell Address, which used to be studied and diagrammed and memorized by students, was replaced by the Gettysburg Address, which in all fairness is easier to memorize at 272 words and a better speech as we understand it.

Washington's Farewell Address was published in a newspaper.

It's essentially an open letter.

It wasn't- - Did he speak it?

- No, never did.

And had worked with Alexander Hamilton and James Madison before him on the contents, although the principles were all Washington.

I also wrote a book more recently on Abraham Lincoln, called Lincoln, the Fight for Peace.

So, these two men are sort of bookends for each other.

One secures liberty and democracy, the other defends it and preserves it, and they're equally heroic for that.

Lincoln is a better writer, right?

I mean, the Gettysburg Address is pure poetry.

But I think the fundamental difference between these two speeches that are so important is that the Farewell Address is sort of Old Testament wisdom from the original Founding Father.

It's a list of, don't do this because we will reap the whirlwind as a democratic republic if we do.

And the Gettysburg Address is a very New Testament address.

It's New Testament leadership.

It's the promise of new national life after death and as was his second inaugural address.

So, they function as bookends to each other, but the Gettysburg Address is definitely the better, more lyrical read.

- What would George Washington, given what he wrote in his Farewell Address, given how he served, given how he left, given his concerns for a very troubled, struggling, fragile republic democracy, what do you think he would have thought and felt about January 6th?

- Oh, he would've been repulsed!

He would've said, this is exactly what we warned against.

And he would've been repulsed on two fronts, right?

I mean, the American partisan system in many ways is formed in reaction to the French Revolution.

And Washington was insistence on neutrality in that situation.

But he and many of the founders fundamentally understood that anarchy is the quickest path toward tyranny.

But again, he's warning about the dangers of hyper-partisanship.

In the Farewell Address he famously says, in words that I think hit harder now, that part of the dangers of hyper-partisanship is it foments occasional riots and insurrection?

- Right.

- Those words didn't feel as ripped from the headlines.

They didn't hit as hard as they do today.

And the fact it was done under the guise by people being super patriotic, he also warned against that.

He said, "We must guard against the impostures "of pretended patriotism."

That is people who pretend that they are more American, more patriotic than their fellow citizens.

In some ways, that's the original sin, the original sin of our country is slavery, but the original sin of people who say that "I'm more American than you," and, therefore, violate the fundamental precept that Washington wanted us to focus on, which is national unity, the idea that what unites us is always greater than what divides us.

- And I wanna talk about Washington and the New Jersey connection because we're a New Jersey-based production operation.

And New Jersey, the Delaware, Trenton, matters greatly in who Washington was as a military leader and how he became our first president.

But this is, in the book, you talk extensively, and people might ask why is Steve even bringing this up?

Washington, a very big man physically, was in pain virtually all the time because of his teeth.

Why is that even relevant to how strong and gritty and tough a man and a leader he was?

How bad was it?

- It was bad, I mean, you know, he was an old 64.

He'd put a lot- - Yeah.

- Of miles, right?

I mean, he'd been a leader in a long-shot cause and, you know, had, had plenty of Valley Forge winters in his life.

And it's a reminder, and this is where we study history, to remember that we persevere through hard times and come out stronger as people and ultimately as a nation.

But his physical ailments, I think do two things.

First of all, they remind us of how human and, therefore, frail and imperfect, all our founders ultimately were.

We put them up on a pedestal sometimes, and I think that does us a great disservice, 'cause it makes their wisdom less accessible.

It's more interesting to understand them as people, and that means understanding their frailties and their weaknesses and their physical infirmities.

And so, that's part of the relevance of understanding the Founders as imperfect people.

It makes their wisdom more accessable.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- Can we do New Jersey?

- Yeah.

- Is it fair to say, and John's book, this is the book we're talking about, "Washington's Farewell: The Founding Father's Warning To Future Generations", our longtime friend and colleague in the media, John Avlon, who you catch him from CNN, but he is not at CNN right now because he's running for public office, for Congress in New York, and P.S., dude, why?

(John laughing) I went from the state legislature in New Jersey to this life 30 plus years ago, mostly because I lost an election and didn't wanna go back, you're going the other way.

What's your story real quick and what does it have to do with this?

(hand patting) - Well, it has everything to do with that.

At the end of the day (laughing) you wanna walk the walk, not just talk the talk, and I think the thing that this "Farewell Address" reminds us is a democratic republic requires citizens to step up for a certain time in their life to try to defend our democracy when it seems under threat and I didn't wanna talk about this election, I thought I could do something that could help and serve for a time and put some of these ideas into action, and I do think the ideas of Washington's "Farewell Address" are incredibly relevant and we can recenter our nation and find more common ground and common purpose if we use them as a North star again.

- Okay.

New Jersey, Washington, The Revolutionary War, were more battles, John Avlon, fought during The Revolutionary War in New Jersey than any other state?

- I believe that's the case, New York and New Jersey had the most battles, yeah.

- What's the Trenton/Delaware River connection, please?

- Well, so this is, this was- - We're very provincial, you know we're very provincial in New Jersey, right?

It's all about us, John, it's all about us.

- I get it, people have said the same thing about us here in New York.

I think regionally, right, we're siblings that squabble sometimes, but it's 'cause we love each other, right?

- Yes, we know you're jealous of us, John.

No, I'm only kidding.

(laughing) - I think we all know you're projecting a bit, but it's fine.

(laughing) - Go ahead.

- So, here's the deal, Washington crossing the Delaware is one of the great heroic moments, right?

This is Christmas Eve, they surprise the British and the Hessians, it's a risky maneuver.

This comes after all the setbacks where America looks like this long shot effort was gonna be, you know, killed in the cradle, and we get through the Valley Forge winter, and all of a sudden Washington goes on offense again with this audacious attack, but the resonance of it isn't just the big painting that some people may know, although it's a great painting.

People might not know, and I think this book ends, and it was sort of a tell in some ways about what I was gonna do next, when Lincoln was elected to the presidency and heading to Washington, he stopped in Trenton and gave an address to the state legislature, and here the nation's on the verge of Civil War and he wants to talk about George Washington and the founding generation, and he talked- - Lincoln did?

- Lincoln did, in Trenton, it's one of the great forgotten speeches of Lincoln's career, but he said he remembered reading about Washington and the founding generation, and he said, "Boy, though, that I was, I felt that there was something more than common in their struggle", i.e., America stood for something greater than itself, that we were about a hope for liberty and dignity for the average individual man and woman and that was transformative, and Lincoln spoke about Washington crossing the Delaware when he was in Trenton, It's a transformative moment that connects those two men and those two generations.

- You know, as a leader, I'm a student of leadership, those who have seen our "Lessons In Leadership" series and some of those segments I do with my colleague, Mary Gamba, we air on "One-on-One", as well, when we think they're relevant to our audience, particularly on public television, but I'm fascinated and I've studied, not the way you have, studied Lincoln as a leader for many years, trying to understand his personality, his character, and while he was strong, tough, integrity, he was also, in your book, you describe him as thin-skinned to criticism, John Avlon- - Yeah.

- What?

How could he be all those things, as complex as we are, and not want Madison, Jefferson and the others critiquing him?

- So, this, Washington is a military leader, this is his background, right?

So, he knows how to sacrifice, he wears the mask of command, right?

The stature is important, he is not voluble, he's also secretly insecure about his lack of formal education compared to the other founders.

He is not the most brilliant, but he is the most respected leader because he has that steadiness that allows someone to steer for the horizon, and there are a lotta different kinds of smart, but that's a really important one because it filters out a lot of the noise.

That said, once he's in political office, and he does not go to the presidency with a sense of ambition, he describes it in a letter home, when he's going from Mount Vernon to take the oath in New York City, at the time New York was our capitol for the first Congress, he said he felt, had the feelings that were like someone going to, a criminal going to his own execution.

This was a sacrifice, this is service, which by the way is also- - To be president?

- To be president and he'd already been, right, a general and all of a sudden he's in the political hurley-burley and he's particularly offended and frustrated by the attacks in the press.

He's very thin-skinned- - Like, "What, are ya coming after me?

I don't even wanna do this job."

- Yeah, and in the second, he wants to leave after one term and he is persuaded, Jefferson and Hamilton are already fighting at the time, they're squabbling, and they're the two sort of surrogate sons he has in his cabinet and he is an independent president as a matter of principle.

He doesn't, the Constitution doesn't mention political parties, it does mention journalists, as I sometimes point out, but it doesn't mention political parties and it's not an accident, and Washington's an independent president but the Federalist party forms out of his cabinet because basically Jefferson and Hamilton are fighting, but it's also about The French Revolution, it's about deep philosophical differences, but he's frustrated at the partisanship that he sees consuming the nation.

He wants to leave, but he's persuaded by Jefferson and Hamilton to stay because they say if he leaves at that time, America will descend it into a civil war.

So, he puts a first draft of the "Farewell Address" in his desk drawer and waits- - Whoa-whoa-whoa, how long before, he puts a first draft- - Yeah.

- Of the "Farewell Address" in his drawer, how many years before it ultimately is published?

- Four years.

- He wants to retire at the end of his first term, he's persuaded that the country will fall apart and at the end of it, because remember, the Constitution is done after the Articles of Confederation- - That's right.

- It kinda left the government really rickety, we needed- - Was it the Articles of Confederation that we were under at the time?

- Before the Constitutional Convention- - Right, go ahead.

- And this is the ratification, and you know, and Hakeem Jeffries points this out sometimes that if you look at the "Federalist Papers", the thing the founders are warning the most about, the word they use the most is not democracy, it's demagogue.

They are focused on the dangers of a demagogue that comes out of chaos.

So, anarchy leads to tyranny, too weak of a federal government can't get things done, the democratic republic experiment falls apart, Washington's the only guy who can fill those shoes, but he does it reluctantly, but by the time he leaves, the country is stabilized, we are on the path towards being an independent nation and that's what's so revolutionary about his leadership.

- What do we owe, as a nation, we're taping this as the presidential campaign is really heating up for the fall of 2024, and regardless of what happens in that election, this interview with John Avlon will continue to be aired on "Remember Them"/"One-on-One", it's relevant, it's important, it's not about a particular horse race.

John knows from our work together, we're not that into horse racing politics at all, we're into bigger, if you will, issues that matter.

Question, in January, in February, in March of 2025, when this show airs in repeats and people watch this, what would you say the most significant contribution that George Washington made to us, based on your book, that should stand out the most, regardless of when they read the book or see this program?

- Yeah.

I think when you read the "Farewell Address", it's Washington's wisdom that we need to keep in mind to recenter and reunite as a nation.

The number one thing he proposed is what I call as a pillar of liberty, a force that could stabilize our civic structures rather than falling prey to the hyper-partisanship and polarization he warned about, is a focus on national unity and political moderation as strength, not weakness, that we need to keep in mind a sense of generational responsibility.

Part of that is looking forward, making sure we're taking actions that are not for ourselves, but for our children and grandchildren, but we're drawing directly on the wisdom of the past, as the founders did, looking at ancient Greece and Rome and what led those republics to fall at the time.

We urgently need to rediscover and reapply that wisdom and update it for our own times, as well.

It's not a restriction, it's a guidance, but what I really hope is when we look at how prescient Washington was about warning about the forces that can destroy a democratic republic, hyper-partisanship, excessive debt, foreign wars, foreign interference in our elections, that we'll draw on his wisdom, as well, about focusing on national unity, political moderation, the importance of individual actors to think first about something bigger than themselves, and that we can draw on that wisdom and reunite as a nation, get past this difficult time we've been in, and find a new source of strength out of that old wisdom.

- John Avlon is the author of "Washington's Farewell: The Founding Father's Warning To Future Generations", more important in 2024, '25 and beyond than ever before.

Thank you, my friend, we wish you all the best in your future endeavors.

- Thank you.

- Thank you, John.

- Appreciate you, thank you.

- On behalf of Jacqui Tricarico, our entire team at "Remember Them" and "One-on-One", we thank you so much for watching.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by PSEG Foundation.

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Hackensack Meridian Health.

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Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

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New Jersey Sharing Network.

And by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by ROI-NJ.

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