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(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato for "Remember Them."

More importantly, my colleague, Jacqui Tricarico, our Executive Producer and Co-anchor.

Jacqui, we recognize and remember James J. Braddock, otherwise known as "Cinderella Man," the iconic movie played by Russell Crowe, all about "Cinderella Man."

We interviewed Henry Hascup, who's the President of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame.

What did you take from that interview?

- Well, I think it's just so important to note that Braddock really became a symbol for so many people during a time in our country, the Great Depression, where there wasn't a lot of hope, right?

There was just so much turmoil and, you know, he became the symbol of somebody, he really was the rags to riches story where he started with nothing, worked so hard and became a champion, really, in boxing.

And boxing, at that time, was just one of the biggest sports in America, and everyone was watching, and he became a symbol for those people that, you know, things could get turned around and things could get better.

- So, you know, what's so interesting is, and we tried to talk about this with Henry Hascup, we didn't have enough time to really get into it.

So James J. Braddock has a very interesting up and down boxing career.

Comes out of Northern New Jersey, pretty sure it was the Hudson County area.

Working class family, as Jacqui said.

It's "Cinderella Man."

He fights for the heavyweight championship against the great, people can't appreciate this, but as a student of boxing, Max Baer, he was knocking people out left and right.

He was the heavyweight champion.

Killed one guy, another guy he fought wound up passing later after a few fights.

Point being, he was vicious.

He was bigger, stronger than James Braddock.

James Braddock has no chance against him, a 10 to 1 underdog.

His wife, James Braddock's wife, and others in his church, went and prayed, not that Braddock would win, but that he would survive the fight and not get killed or get hurt seriously.

We tell that story about the great James Braddock.

And also Jacqui, for me, the other thing I took from it was that he had grit.

I'm a fan of the word grit.

This guy never gave up, odds or no odds, right?

- Nope.

He never gave up.

And that's depicted in the movie "Cinderella Man" too.

And I definitely watched that with Russell Crowe back in 2005, and it just, of course, it's a Hollywood movie, right?

And kind of depict him in even a bigger light than he was.

But Braddock didn't ever give up.

And he retired, you know, with his last win.

And, you know, he passed away in North Bergen, New Jersey in 1974, but his legacy definitely lives on.

- Can't forget people like, people go, oh, Rocky Marciano, Muhammad Ali the great champ, you're right, but then there was "Cinderella Man," James J. Braddock.

In the second half, Jacqui and I will talk about an interview that she did all about the great Althea Gibson right over there.

But right now, the "Cinderella Man," James J. Braddock.

- We're now joined by Henry Hascup, who is president and boxing historian of the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame.

How you doing, Henry?

- I'm doing well.

How about you?

- Doing great.

There's Cinderella Man the great book written by our great friend, Jeremy Schaap.

Check that out.

But Henry knows more about boxing than anyone else, I know.

Henry, lemme ask you something.

The name "Cinderella Man" for, for James J Braddock, Where does Cinderella man come from?

The name?

- Well, Cinderella man came from a sports writer by the name of Damon Runyan.

- "The" Damon Runyan.

- Yes, yes.

He was very famous.

He gave lot of nicknames to fighters like The Manassa Mauler, Jack Dempsey, the to- - Jack Dempsey - Did he call, did he call Joe Lewis the, the Brown Bomber?

- Yeah.

Well, he, he did, but somebody I think somebody else coined him, him on that one but Mickey-, - But where does Cinderella man come from?

The name?

Like what does it mean?

- Well, it means like "Relief to Royalty".

It was a book by an old time boxing writer, Lud Shahbazian.

He wrote the book.

He was a good friend of of the Cinderella man, James J. Braddock.

You know, James J. Braddock was on, on public relief.

You know, he was working in the docks at $4 an hour.

He had to walk like four or five miles just to get to the docks and make like $4 an hour.

- We're talking about the depression.

So people need to put this in perspective.

We're talking about the 1930s, he's on he's on government assistance, otherwise known as welfare.

He ultimately paid the money back later.

But how the heck does he go from that, to fighting for the heavyweight championship on June 13th, 1935 against Max Baer, 10 to 1 underdog, James Braddock was people worried that he was gonna get killed?

- Yes.

Well, lemme, lemme go back.

You know James J. Braddock was a pretty good am amateur fighter.

You know, he, he won the state titles in both light heavyweight and heavyweight divisions in 1925 and 26.

- In Jersey?

- Yeah, in New Jersey.

- Okay.

- They weren't called the Golden Gloves then but they were called Amateur Boxing championships.

But, and then he turned pro and he had a very successful pro career.

He won, like he was undefeated in his first 38 fights.

And, you know, he finally got a shot at the light heavyweight title against Tommy Loughran.

- Did he fight him?

Cause then we called it a heavyweight championship but heavyweights were not as big as they are today.

Was he even 200 pounds?

I don't think he even think he was.

- Oh no, no, he wasn't 200 pounds.

Even when he won the, won these titles and the amateurs he was like 160, just over 160 pounds.

And he won the heavyweight championship.

He was going against guys 220 and he was still winning.

But as far as a pro goes, I mean, you know, like I said he won his fir-, he was undefeated in his first 38 fights.

Then he fought the guy by the name of Pete Latzo who was rated number five in the world, like heavyweight division.

And he beat him, fact he broke his jaw.

Then he beat Tuffy Griffin who had a streak of 35 fights in a row without a loss.

And, you know, he stopped him in his second round.

Then he fought Jimmy Slattery and he stopped him in nine.

Then he got a shot at Tommy Loughran.

- So when does he get, so, so he gets the shot at the title he's a 10 to 1 underdog people in his community, were going to church praying that James J Braddock, Cinderella Man, would not get killed or hurt.

How the heck does he beat?

Now put Max Baer in perspective, if I'm not mistaken Max Baer had killed two other men in the ring.

He was that violent.

He was that powerful.

How the heck does Braddock win that fight?

- Well, let's go back.

After he fought Loughran, he lost, and the next 31 bouts that he had, counting that Loughran fight, he only won nine of them.

He was like, like a tomato can.

You know, he-, - Tomato can in boxing, known as someone who is easy to beat.

Go ahead.

- Yeah - He broke his hands several times.

His collarbone, he was taking fights on the last minute notice.

Then he fought a guy by the name of Abe Feldman and he broke his hand in a million pieces.

He couldn't even use it.

So he had to, you know, he couldn't box anymore.

- He broke his right hand.

So the left hand did that left hand become more powerful?

- Well, the left hand he had to use when he went down to the docks and started working at the docks because he lost all his money at, when the stock market crashed, he owned a fleet of taxi cabs and nobody could afford even taking a taxi cab at the time.

So he would, you know, he'd lost all his money.

So he went down to docks and he, he started working and he had to work with his left hand.

His left hand, left hand over and over again.

He couldn't use his right hand, it was in a cast, you know.

So his left hand got stronger and stronger and stronger.

So this is what it was.

And then he still wasn't making enough money so he had to go on relief.

He was getting like $24 a week, you know, and we- - Gotta, I gotta ask you, Henry, I gotta deal with time.

How the heck does he beat Max Baer again?

He loses the title after he beats Max Baer.

Two years later in 1937, he loses to the great Joe Lewis.

How the heck does he beat Max Baer?

- Well, you gotta go back to let's say from June 13th, 1934 to June 13th, 1935, in one year's time, he beat three you know, somewhat good, good opponents, Corn Griffin who they were raising up to be one of the best.

And he stopped Griffin in three rounds.

Then of, of course, John Henry Lewis.

He beat him then he beat Art Lasky, he beat him.

And then he got a shot at Max Baer.

Max Baer was a 10 to 1 favor, - 10 to 1.

- he killed two, two people in the ring.

He actually only killed one Frankie Campbell.

He, you know, a lot of people give him credit of I hate to say credit, but Ernie Shaft.

But Ernie Shaft he fought four more times before he, he was actually killed.

- But what, what I wanna I wanna focus on the fight for a moment.

Given how powerful Max Baer was, would overpower people consistently and Braddock being smaller, was he faster?

How the heck did he win that fight?

- Well, he said he was, he was fighting for milk.

You know, he, what was, he was fighting for his family you know, Max Baer, he was more of or less a, a clown.

He didn't take Braddock seriously.

And Braddock trained, you know, being a- he rested his right arm, you know, you know, for months and used his left arm.

His left got stronger and stronger all the time.

And so he was ready for the fight.

Max Baer wasn't.

And when that day came, you know, people were actually praying, you know, his wife May, she went to the church and you know, she went to to pray, you know for her husband.

In fact, when she got there, the church was had a lot of people there.

They were all- - And what town was that in?

What town was that in?

- This was the St. Joseph's in Palisades.

That's a- - Palisades New Jersey.

- Yeah, that's, that's the church she went to and uh, - Got it.

- She was praying that he wouldn't get hurt because, you know they were saying Max Baer's a killer.

And then as, as fight went along, you know that, you know round after round, you know, they say, oh, Braddock made it out of the first round.

Braddock made it out of outta the fifth round.

And by the seventh round, that's when Baer, you know clocked Braddock pretty good.

And, and, but Braddock survived.

And then by the 10th round people saying, geez maybe Braddock has a good shot because I, you know we think he's winning.

And, and as time went on and on and then the final bell you know, most of the people like went wild.

I'm, I'm not gonna say the fight was a thriller in Manila because it wasn't, it, it was a pretty dull fight.

But the thing was that people were excited because they were waiting for Max Baer to land that big right hand and put Jimmy Braddock away.

And - Hey Henry, I wish, you know, 15 rounds at the time now 12 you only a certain amount of time.

And so unfortunately we run outta time.

Henry, I wanna thank you for putting the Cinderella man James J Braddock from New Jersey into perspective.

We appreciate it, Henry.

Thank you.

- Thank you, thank you.

- You got it.

Remember Them, Will be right back.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

We now look at an extraordinary figure, not just because she was a great tennis player, a golfer, great athlete, but a great American figure.

Althea Gibson.

Jacqui, you have a terrific interview people are about to see, set it up for us.

- Yeah, with Dr. Ashley Brown, who recently wrote a new book all about Althea Gibson.

And, you know, we really talk about her childhood, and how that impacted who she became on and off the court later on in her tennis career, and even as a golfer.

One thing that we didn't get to, though, is her later years in life living here in New Jersey.

Her health really deteriorated and she was actually really broke.

She didn't have a lot of money to help with all the bills that came in with all of her health problems.

And her Wimbledon doubles partner, Angela Buxton, actually raised a million dollars in donations to help her.

- For Althea Gibson?

- For Althea Gibson, yeah.

To help her during that really tough time later on in her life, I think it was in the late '80s and early '90s.

So, you know, it's a part that we didn't get to my interview with Dr. Brown, but a really interesting part of her life later on here in New Jersey.

- You know, Jacqui, you really set this up very well, and I'll tell you why.

"Remember Them" can only do so much, so Jacqui covered what she could cover with Dr. Brown.

But the book, we also promote these books.

We may or may not be able to see it behind me, it is simply called "Serving Herself: The Life and Times" of really the great Althea Gibson, the first African American to win the Grand Slam, 1956, died in East Orange, as Jacqui said, in 2003.

But just an important figure in, not just African American history, not just, I shouldn't say just, in American history, in world history.

Althea Gibson, a great interview that my colleague Jacqui Tricarico does with Dr. Ashley Brown.

Check it out.

(jazz music) - [Instructor] In 1956, Althea Gibson became the first African American to win the Grand Slam tennis event by capturing the French Open.

Often called the Jackie Robinson of Tennis, Althea Gibson not only broke the color barrier, she shattered it with her amazing feats.

In 1957, she won her first of two consecutive singles championships, and upon returning to the United States, was given a ticker-tape parade in New York City and an official welcome at New York City Hall.

She responded by winning the US Championships.

For her accomplishments that year, Gibson earned the number one ranking in the world and was named the Associated Press Female Athlete of the Year, an award that she would again receive the following year.

After finishing her remarkable career, Althea Gibson retired to East Orange, making New Jersey her home until her death in 2003.

♪ In you ♪ (upbeat music) - Hi, I'm Jacqui Tricarico, and I am so pleased to be joined by Dr. Ashley Brown, who is the author of the new book "Serving Herself: The Life and Times of Althea Gibson," and Assistant Professor of history at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Dr. Brown, thank you so much for joining us.

- Thanks so much for having me, Jacqui.

- Well, we're here to talk about Althea Gibson, one of the greatest tennis players of all-time.

But I'd first like to talk a little bit about her childhood.

And tell us how her childhood really shaped and molded her to become the athlete that she was.

- It's a great question.

Althea Gibson was born in South Carolina in 1927.

Her family migrated to New York in the early 1930s.

And from the very start, she loved sports, played all kinds of sports and games, basketball, baseball, loved to play football with kids, become quite adept at paddle tennis, and that led her to tennis.

And for her entire life, she's passionate about sports, playing them and then teaching them to others.

- And it wasn't just that she broke the color barrier in tennis but in American sports in general, one of the first to do so, which was an amazing accomplishment of hers.

But also, she really went against a lot of stereotypical gender roles as well.

Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

- Oh, of course.

Many people during Gibson's lifetime, especially her early years, they felt that sports were only for boys and for men.

And Althea Gibson didn't carry that idea.

She came from a family in which her parents didn't inculcate her with that idea.

So her parents seemed to have been very open and accepting of her preference for sports.

She also preferred to wear shorts and pants, something else that was thought of as taboo for girls and for women.

But she felt that these outfits gave her better mobility and a better chance to be the best that she could be at the sports that she played.

- And I think she would argue and many argue too, if she was a man, she would be heard of a lot more than she is, just like Jackie Robinson is for breaking the color barrier in baseball.

So many people argue that, if Althea Gibson during the time was a man, her name would be more well-known, not just across tennis but across sports.

But for Althea Gibson, what was it like for her, personally, when she became so successful?

Was it a burden on her to feel that responsibility that she had breaking the color barrier, like we said, breaking these gender roles, not just in tennis but in sports in general?

- It was certainly a mixed blessing.

Althea Gibson wanted to be the best at tennis, and she reached the number one ranking in 1957 and held it through 1958.

But because she was a woman and specifically an African American woman who was playing so well and playing tennis so well, she faced a tremendous amount of criticism.

Sometimes from spectators at her tennis matches but especially from members of the media nationwide and even around the world.

Because it seems that a lot of people just were not ready.

They were not prepared for someone like Althea Gibson, someone who looked like Althea Gibson to excel in the game of tennis.

- And you talked about some of those titles that she won.

Can you go through some of those stats?

Because, I mean, it's so impressive, so many titles that she won, and some of them so many times over and over again through the years.

- Oh, certainly.

So in terms of breaking the barriers with regard to race, first African American to play at what is now the U.S. Open, the first to play at what is now Wimbledon, the first African American to win the Grand Slam tennis titles.

So 1956, she wins now the equivalent of the French Open.

1956, she also wins the doubles title, first African American to do that.

And then, her great years, the U.S. Open and Wimbledon have always or generally been considered the best, the highest in terms of tennis matches to win.

She won both the U.S. Open and Wimbledon in 1957 and then successfully defended her titles in 1958.

So, this was, again, a tremendous athlete.

I think she would have excelled at any sport that she played.

And turns out, she had another passion, golf.

Althea Gibson went on to become the first African American woman to compete on and then also to be a member of the LPGA Tour.

So she was a golfer and a tennis player.

- And bringing it back to Wimbledon, I believe and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but the first time that she won, the Queen came out on the court and shook her hand.

What was the significance of that?

- Oh, it was a major moment.

And for people who order the book and open it up, you'll see that I've got a picture of Queen Elizabeth presenting the Wimbledon trophy, the Wimbledon plate to Althea Gibson.

It was a tremendous moment.

Althea Gibson was a descendant of slaves.

And here you have Queen Elizabeth, wow, the symbol of so many things with regard to power and privilege in America, or pardon me, around the world.

I think about Britain and its colonies, the sun never setting on the British Empire.

And here is Queen Elizabeth presenting that tremendous plate to Althea Gibson, whose parents had been sharecroppers.

She had been very poor during her upbringing in Harlem, and there she was on top of the world in tennis for everyone to see meeting royalty.

It was definitely a huge moment in the history of sports.

- And her family, I know there was, talking about her family again a little bit, I know there was a lotta tension between her and her dad and with her upbringing, and she kinda ran away from home plenty of times to escape the abuse that she had at home.

Talk about the family's encouragement later on in her life as she's going through and winning all these and being so successful in tennis.

What was her relationship with her family as that happened?

- Another fabulous question.

She had such a nuanced relationship with her dad.

He taught her to fight in terms of fist fighting, but also in terms of her mentality, not to take things for granted, I would say.

And that is an attitude that she carried throughout her life in sports, but also in her other endeavors.

Her family, her mother was very supportive of her.

But we also see that she wasn't really able to spend a tremendous amount of time with her parents and with her siblings because she was off chasing her dreams and her ambitions.

I think that's something that many of your viewers might be able to identify with.

And so, she wrote letters home to her mother.

She tried to keep the family as much as she could informed of what her activities were, but she always had her dreams at the top of mind.

- And bringing it back to New Jersey, right, she moved to New Jersey after she got married.

I think it was 1965?

- Yes.

- Moved to New Jersey.

Talk about her connection to the great State of New Jersey and her contribution to athletics here in the state.

- Wow.

Althea Gibson's relationship with New Jersey, it's long and it's deep.

She married William Darben, as you pointed out.

He was from New Jersey.

In 1970, Gibson took some time away from the LPGA Tour to become a recreational program leader in Essex County.

In the 1970s, the middle of the decade, she was the state athletic commissioner, first African American, first woman to hold that position.

She served under Governor Brendan Byrne.

And then in the 1980s and the 1990s, she was closely associated with and worked for Governor's Councils on Physical Fitness.

So she definitely wanted the good folks of New Jersey to be healthy, to be strong, and to be active.

And she used many of her later years carrying that message across the state.

- And I know part of that message too was to make sure that New Jersey stood out in athletics, outside from the shadows of New York and Philadelphia, right, just making sure New Jersey had its own place in sports, which we definitely do today.

And I'm sure part of that is thanks to Althea Gibson.

So, before we let you go, it's hard not to talk about the Williams sisters when we're talking about tennis.

What was Althea Gibson's, how did she really influence the Williams sisters?

- Well, she loved the Williams sisters.

And so, in the later years of her life, when she wasn't in the best of health, one of the things that she enjoyed doing was watching Venus Williams' tennis matches.

And in the late 1990s, she had the great good fortune through a good friend of hers, Angela Buxton, of having a telephone conversation with Venus Williams.

And she offered encouragement and support that really only Althea Gibson could provide her because she had some sense of what Venus Williams might've been going through.

Venus Williams, something of a pioneer herself in tennis, along with her sister Serena.

And when Serena Williams, of course, won the U.S. Open in 1999, she was very happy and she was also thrilled, of course, in the year 2000 when Venus succeeded so well and won at Wimbledon.

And so it's a deep connection and I think it was one that was meaningful to all three.

- And we just touched the surface, but if you, our viewers, wanna learn more about Althea Gibson, you can now pick up Dr. Ashley Brown's book, the author of "Serving Herself: The Life and Times of Althea Gibson."

Thank you so much, Dr. Brown, for joining us.

We really appreciate it.

And thank you for watching "Remember Them."

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One on One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSE&G, NJM Insurance Group.

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Promotional support provided by The New Jersey Business & Industry Association.

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