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(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, welcome to "Remember Them."

Steve Adubato with Jacqui Tricarico.

As always, Jacqui, we remember, this is before your time, so don't act like you watched John Amos on "Good Times" when it came out in the '70s.

But I did this interview with Eric Deggans, who a media critic with National Public Radio, and also a professor of media as well.

John Amos matters for so many reasons.

What did you take from that interview?

- I might not have watched "Good Times" when it was out, Steve, but I knew most people, - In reruns.

- Most people know who John Amos is, and "Good Times" wasn't the only thing that he was in.

So many different characters that he played over the years, but was often known as the TV dad.

He's a New Jersey Hall of Fame Inductee as well.

In 2019, he was inducted.

And I think what's most important to when we're remembering somebody on our series, right, it's all about New Jersey.

And what he said in an interview about being from New Jersey.

He said, "Well, it gives you a good basis for life.

You get a PhD in reality if you come out of Jersey."

And I loved that quote from him, because he really was passionate about being from the state, and it was in his blood, it was in his roots.

So, he took that seriously and he was proud of that.

- And speaking of roots, he also, John Amos was in the iconic series, "Roots."

LeVar Burton played the younger Kunta Kinte.

John Amos played the adult Kunta Kinte in this extraordinary Alex Haley documentary, mini documentary series, if you will.

Listen, if you're from New Jersey, if you appreciated media, particularly folks who are African American, and really did not see an, quote unquote, intact mother, father, family with a strong father, strong mother figure, that's what "Good Times" was.

And a big part of that, other than Esther Rolle being Florida in that series, the mom, it was John Amos.

He was terrific.

He was from East Orange.

We honor and remember him right now.

- [Narrator] Born in Newark and raised in East Orange, John Amos went to Colorado State on a football scholarship where he earned a degree in sociology.

His gridiron skills got him a tryout for the Kansas City Chiefs, who signed and released him, as did the Denver Broncos.

That led to three years of semi-pro ball with a variety of leagues in the US and Canada.

Tiring of football, he decided to try show business, first as a writer performer, and eventually breaking out as Gordy the weatherman on "The Mary Tyler Moore Show."

He made his mark as Esther Rolle's husband and Jimmy "JJ" Walker's father in "Good Times."

- Oh, dad, can I borrow you aftershave lotion?

- For what?

This ain't your week to shave.

(audience laughing) - [Narrator] And he was nominated for an Emmy as the adult Kunta Kinte in the groundbreaking series "Roots."

- We are honored to be joined by Eric Deggans, who's a critic at large, NPR, National Public Radio, and Knight Professor of Journalism and Media Ethics at Washington and Lee University.

Eric, so good to have you with us, thank you.

- Yeah, thank you for having me.

- Let's talk about John Amos and why he's so important to remember, please.

- Sure.

Well, John Amos came along at a time when Black actors were really trying to make their mark, particularly in television, and they were trying to take scripts and characters that had been created by white producers and try to turn them into something more authentic, try to turn them into something more powerful.

And, you know, Black actors back then also had to be a little entrepreneurial.

John Amos was a bit of a writer himself, and so, he was able to bring something to these roles that made them more special.

And in particular, with "Good Times", he embodied Black fatherhood in a way that we really had never seen before on television.

And I remember as a young child, I was probably about six or seven when the show debuted on television.

I remember gravitating to that, 'cause I didn't have a father in my own house.

And so, I gravitated to the father figure that I saw on television in John Amos, strong, Black, cared for his children, insisted they get an education, held them to a high standard, could be tough, and could punish them when needed, but also was a loving figure.

And I think a lot of Black people across the country had never seen a Black father like that on television.

And that endeared John Amos to a lot of people.

- It's so interesting how you lay this out, Eric, and the importance of John Amos.

But let me ask you this, as you've written about people like John Amos or written about John Amos and why he's so important, a lot is made of the fact that he pushed back with Norman Lear, the great producer who brought that show to the air, because all of the writers, all the producers, all the folks who were making that happen were white.

And John Amos pushed back with Norman Lear and others on certain, particularly, whether it's J.J.

the son talking about, you know, dynamite.

How he used to say.

He wanted no stereotypes.

He wanted it to be as realistic as possible.

Am I making too much of that, Eric?

- No, you're right on the money.

And in fact, what was happening was a bunch of different influences were coming together at the same time.

You know, out in the world there was this growing sense of Black power and Black pride and Black viewers were insisting on characters that were less stereotypical.

And to be fair, TV producers like Norman Lear, Norman Lear was the executive producer of "Good Times" and "All in the Family".

They did want to present less stereotypical Black characters than you might have seen in the 1950s or 1960s on television, but where they came to friction was that they were also well aware of how TV worked back then.

And if you had a character who came up with a catchphrase and sort of clicked with the audience, then the writers would start to write more to that character.

Now, when Esther Rolle, who played Florida Evans, she was initially intended to be the star of the show.

Her character started on "All in the Family" and then "Maude", and they spun that character off.

And they told her and they told John Amos that they were going to present a strong non-stereotypical intact Black family.

Esther Rolle wanted to have a husband, she wanted to show a family with a father and a mother and children, an intact nuclear family, and they assured her that what happened.

Now, what happened was that as those storylines started to move towards the oldest son, J.J.

Evans, he was much more of a stereotypical character.

He looked, he had these bug eyes, he was kind of a womanizer, he wasn't book smart, even though he was a talented artist.

And people sort of felt they were seeing sort of a more nuanced version of what we call a coon character, a stereotypical character.

And Esther Rolle and John Amos both pushed back against that, because they would go out in the world and Black people would say, "What are you doing?

You know, we thought this was about a wonderful, wholesome Black family, and instead you got this Dynamite guy coming in," but the producers knew that was the key to the show being successful.

Audiences were bonding with J.J.

and they were watching the episodes waiting for the moment when he would say "Kid Dynamite".

So, there was a real tension there.

And John Amos himself, if you see in interviews, would admit that he was not the most diplomatic person when it came to expressing his dissatisfaction with scripts.

And he said in an interview with the Archive of American Television, you know, I guess the writers got tired of having their lives threatened every week so.

- Hold on, Eric.

Eric, didn't he say, "I'm from Jersey."

- Yeah.

Well, and he was an athlete, he was a football player.

So, he was used to, you know, sort of expressing himself in blunt terms at times.

And so, I think what eventually happened was that Norman Lear realized that it would be really hard to satisfy John.

And John realized that he wasn't particularly happy in the role.

And even though Norman Lear basically, wrote him off the show, I think there was a sense among both of them that it was time for him to leave.

And unfortunately, that resulted in "Good Times" going on without a father.

And Esther Rolle was playing the matriarch of a fatherless Black family.

- Move forward to "Roots".

He played the adult Kunta Kinte, the importance of "Roots", the importance of John Amos, who was a 2019 New Jersey Hall of Fame inductee.

John Amos and "Roots", the significance, please.

- So, well, so of course, "Roots" was the story of a Black author Alex Haley tracing his family lineage all the way back to Africa.

And then "Roots" dramatized the story of his ancestor from Africa who was captured and enslaved and brought to America.

And John Amos played the grownup version of that character.

And what was so important about "Roots" was not only the fact that it was the first mini series.

All the episodes aired in basically, a week.

Now, the reason that happened was because ABC was scared that white audiences would be frightened by the subject of slavery, particularly how detailed and brutal the depictions were.

And so, they wanted to air all the episodes before an important ratings period started.

But what ended up happening is that the show was so good that viewership built from episode to episode, and it became this blockbuster TV event that inspired other miniseries after that.

What "Roots" also did was it showed that Black people had history in this country, it showed that Black people's genealogy matter, and John Amos played the adult version of the heroic character at the center of that story.

By the time we get to John Amos' part of the story, his character, Kunta Kinte, had tried to escape and had a part of his foot cut off for trying to escape and had managed to make a life and raise a family under the most horrific circumstances.

And so, he becomes, again, a symbol of Black fatherhood and a symbol of Black endurance.

He becomes this character that people can look to and say, "We retained some semblance of our dignity."

He retained some semblance of his culture, even though his white overseers tried to stamp it out, stop him from using his African language, stop him from playing the African drums, but he held onto it.

And internally, he always felt his name was Kunta Kinte, not Toby, the name they tried to give him.

And so, again, you know, Black audiences were hungry for these kinds of prideful depictions, and John Amos was bringing it to us.

And so, of course, you know, the love and the identification attached to it.

- Eric Deggans from NPR critic at large, and also a professor of Journalism and Media Ethics at Washington and Lee University.

As we honor, recognize, and pay tribute to the great John Amos.

Eric, thank you so much for joining us.

We appreciate it.

- Thank you for having me.

- You got it.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- We now remember, recognize a great actress, Suzanne Shepherd.

Jacqui, you talked to Suzanne's daughter, Kate?

- Yes, so, we had the privilege of speaking with Suzanne's daughter.

And I love when we are able to have a family member on of someone that we're remembering.

Just gives us such a unique insight into their life and their career and their impact here in New Jersey.

And Kate talks about so many of the roles that Suzanne was known for.

Like she was in "The Sopranos" and "Goodfellas," often known- - She was Carmela's mother.

- Yep, and 20 episodes of "The Sopranos," but also so many other roles that Kate said she really loves more than those big, more well-known roles.

Like she was in "Uncle Buck," a really funny scene in that movie.

So, Kate shares some insight into those different roles that she played, but also just her passion and love for teaching other actors.

That's really something that she continued to do throughout her career.

If she wasn't acting, she was teaching.

If she wasn't teaching, she was acting, and vice versa.

She was really made sure that she was helping the next generation of actors and fellow actors hone in on their craft and be the best possible actor that they could be.

- Jacqui, other than "The Sopranos," what do you think?

I always put you on the spot here.

What do you think my favorite role that Suzanne Shepherd played was?

- Oh, I know you didn't tell me before this.

Not the "Uncle Buck" then.

- No, not "Uncle Buck."

"Goodfellas."

- "Goodfellas"?

"Goodfellas," it had to be "Goodfellas."

- Who she was.

- She was- - Karen.

- Yeah, she was the mom.

- Mom.

She was the mom of Lorraine Bracco, who was Karen, played with Ray Liotta, who we also honored and remembered on this great series, "Remember Them."

But she was Karen's mom.

Watch the film, watch the iconic scene when she kept telling Karen she had to get away from Ray Liotta because he was involved with some unsavory characters.

Let's just leave it at that.

- Yeah, and you could tell she had that raspy voice, that it was very signature for her, too.

And you hear it in that role as well as so many other roles that she played.

- So we honor, we recognize Suzanne Shepherd.

Jacqui's terrific interview with her daughter, Kate.

Check it out.

- So pleased to be joined now by Kate Shepherd, the daughter of the great late Suzanne Shepherd.

So great to have you with us, Kate.

- Thank you.

It's an honor.

- We are here to remember your mom.

And first I wanna start with your childhood because you mentioned that growing up in your house there, it was always very lively and loud, and people coming in, fellow actors and students and friends of your mothers.

Talk about your childhood and more about living in your mother's creative world as a child.

- It was very social and there were dinner parties all the time.

And she didn't just put together a salad, she put together like a salad and a full meal.

And there was orders beforehand.

She made chopped liver.

And there was a lot of drinking involved and that happened really often.

- Talk about some of her characteristics during that time.

Some things that made her really special and why people were so drawn to her.

- Yeah, she seemed to enter into a lot of success sort of later in her life.

Part of it was like, she was originally an actress, but then turned to landscape architecture or design afterwards.

And then she started to study acting with Sanford Meisner, and she became his protege and started teaching his method.

So her teaching was a really huge part of her life.

And then she went into acting from there.

- So teaching vs.

acting.

What did she seem most passionate about?

Because it seems like over her life, it went from one to the other and then back and forth.

What did you see firsthand what she was most passionate about?

- Well, the first day of class when she taught, she said she had a sermon and she would go through poetry and meditation and she would sort of like do this overview of the things that she was thinking about at the time.

And she was passionate about making up things in her acting roles.

Like she would bring herself, not just the script, but she would make things up.

And that was really exciting to hear about.

- Improvisation.

Right?

She loved improvising and bringing that quirky side to when she was auditioning for different things.

Correct?

Talk about the Uncle Buck.

I know you have a fun story about the time that she was in Uncle Buck and that audition for her.

- She found out that they were looking for the ugliest woman in the world.

So she went, she was... - And she is not ugly.

She's very beautiful.

- Glamorous.

But she knew how to like put her hair up and wear funny glasses.

And she would really play with auditioning.

And so she passed a newstand and she bought some gum and she put it on her chin and it became this big wart that John Candy based the scene around.

So they rewrote the scene based on that wart.

And the other thing she did was in a movie called Week Of, I think it was with Adam Sandler.

They were all sleeping in the living room and she got the idea to sit there and do something while she was, like not just read a magazine.

So she asked for some tweezers and a mirror and she pretended to pluck the hair out of her chin and how they caught her when they came home.

And then in Jacob's Ladder she did something wonderful.

That was the really scary one where she was having horns through her nurse hat.

The main character was just bothering her so much about wanting paperwork and she's like, "Can't you see I haven't had my lunch yet."

And that was became a really memorable line for her, even though it was a bit part.

So she was able to expand a bit part even though it was short to be memorable.

- Let's talk a little bit more about some of those onscreen acting credentials that she had.

The Sopranos was one of them on 20 episodes, I believe, of The Sopranos.

And often known as TV's Mom for a lot of those roles.

She was, I think it was just a few years maybe before she passed she was on "The Talking Sopranos" podcast with her fellow castmates from that time in her life just talking about, not just The Sopranos, but just so much of her life and her acting career as well as, as an educator, as a teacher.

And it seemed like what I picked up from that conversation that she had on that podcast, and she loved to tell a story.

What's some of your most favorite stories that you heard from your mom about some of those acting gigs on screen?

- Oh, gosh.

I know that she just loved Edie Falco and she loved working with her so much.

And I got to hear about the makeup more than anything.

Like she would leave at four in the morning, get picked up, and then go and have her hair done, which was a huge endeavor.

And then her makeup.

And so she was always very intimate with the person who was doing the makeup and she would make best friends with everybody who she was working with.

That was one huge talent she had.

She didn't make friends, she made best friends.

Everybody was her best friend.

And she had great relationships, which she kept for decades and decades.

The door was always unlocked.

- At your house.

- Yeah.

- The door was never locked in either house.

I'm at her country house now, which is- - And where is that located?

- It's in Ghent, New York.

So we are having a ball looking at paperwork and reminiscing, but the door was never locked and people actually just came through the door and sat at the dining room table with her and chatted.

And whether it be the neighbor or the gardener next door or whether it be her fellow acting teacher and director.

But she made a lot of really great friends.

Yeah.

She had a talent for that.

And even when she was contrary, she made friends with people.

Like, I remember there was a young man who came over with one of my mom's new best friends and he was interested in a kind of like heavy metal band.

And she insisted that he showed it to her.

So she listened to it and stopped and yelled, "That's not music, I'll show you music."

And she put on Stephane Grappelli.

It's such a beautiful tape.

But she was like, she was not afraid to be really emphatic.

- Well, speaking of being in her home, tell us about what's behind you.

It's a display of some of her hats, right?

- Hats.

And some of them have been picked over, but she was great at wearing hats.

She was extremely glamorous and she was really comfortable with wearing hats.

Like who does that?

(Kate and Jacqui laugh) - It was one of her signature looks.

- And she also... Yes, it was.

And she was really glamorous.

I used to sit on the toilet area watching her get her hair and her makeup on.

She put individual eyelashes on before that was even a trend.

- Wow.

- Anyway, she was fun to watch.

- And her theater life, we haven't touched upon that yet.

Tell us what we should know about the time she spent in the theater, which was just so important to her.

- Yeah, she made this really great working relationship with Athol Fugard, the South African playwright, who is strictly brilliant.

And she originally met him because our neighbor, Bruce Davidson, the photographer downstairs, introduced them.

And Athol wanted to listen to classical music while he was in New York from South Africa.

So that was an activity to sit on the couch and listen to a record, which was really inspiring to me.

And she did a couple of his plays.

And Joan Allen was in one and Danny Glover was in another, or the same one actually.

And then she got her nerve up.

She was in Athol's more current play, which I mean, he's deceased, but it's called A Place With the Pigs.

And we found a journal entry where she's trying to psych herself up to tell Athol the truth about how she feels like it should be directed.

- Oh wow.

And she did.

She put her stamp on so many things that she did.

And I know you're an artist as well, Kate.

I'm sure you take that and from your mother, her being an artist as well and in so many different ways, but different, right?

What do you though, what do you think your mom would want people to know or to remember her by the most?

- Her brilliance.

- Describe that for us.

How did you see her brilliance as her daughter?

- I mean, part of her big presence was that she kind of always had to be the most brilliant person in the room.

And she often really was.

And she talked about language and she talked about poetry and she wrote poems and she analyzed situations very exactingly, analyzed people's psychology.

And she knew so much about music and she knew so much about plants and she was a great cook.

And she was always cooking and entertaining.

She was, yeah... She wanted people to recognize how smart she was.

And at the end of her life, she wasn't using her brain enough, she told me.

And she said, "It's like a toy to play with."

But she read really hard books at the end of her life too.

- And thank you 'cause doing this with us, you helped us understand just a little bit more about her brilliance and I can tell she taught you so much in your life as well.

So thank you for helping us remember and honor your mom, Suzanne Shepherd, and just the contributions she had to film, to theater, to the art of acting, and all the folks that she taught over all those years.

So thank you so much, Kate.

- Yeah, I just wanna add that she gained her confidence later in her life and wish she had had it earlier in her life.

- I know, don't we?

All right.

(laughs) It's hard to gain that confidence.

Well, thank you so much.

We really appreciate it.

- Yeah, it's an honor.

Thank you.

- Thank you.

For Steve Adubato and myself.

Thanks for watching.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSEG Foundation.

NJM Insurance Group.

Hackensack Meridian Health.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

Kean University.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

And by United Airlines.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by ROI-NJ.

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