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- This is One-On-One.

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(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Remember Them".

I'm Steve Adubato, with our Executive Producer, Co-Anchor Jacqui Tricarico.

Jacqui, we honor and recognize two extraordinary baseball players who were amazing human beings, Larry Doby and also Monte Irvin.

What struck you about the interviews we did, which also kick off with the leader of public broadcasting in this region, Neal Shapiro, the head of the WNET Group.

Neal is a baseball aficionado, a Yankee fan, and talks about Larry Doby and his contribution.

But what struck you about these two interviews?

Who did we have?

- So first up, yeah, talking about Larry Doby was Dr. Mark Anthony Neal, and he is with Duke University, the Department of African and African American Studies.

And then talking about Monte Irvin was Bob Kendrick, the President of the Negro Baseball League Museum, who actually- - He was great.

- was friends with Monte Irvin, yeah.

So it was really incredible to hear about his take on who Monte Irvin was, the person, not just the baseball player.

And Larry Doby and Monte Irvin, when you're talking about baseball during that time, breaking the color barriers in both of their own ways was just so significant to baseball, but to where we were in America during that time period.

And you know, it's just really interesting to learn more about both of these people and there's so much still history there in Paterson.

Paterson, the city, really takes a lot of pride that Larry Doby came out of the city there.

- But he was in Montclair, my hometown, my neighbor for many years.

Jacqui, one of the first interviewers I did, 1989, I don't think, I don't know if you were born- - I was.

- was with Larry Doby in his home.

- In Montclair, yeah.

And that's where he passed away in 2003, in Montclair.

- And Monte grew up in Orange, New Jersey?

- Yep, in Orange, New Jersey.

Yep.

And you know, it's interesting too, that both of them, as well, were veterans and served for our country, which is significant, I think, a really important part of their history and who they were and the type of people they were.

So we get to honor both of them, Larry Doby and Monte Irvin in this "Remember Them" special.

- As we look at Larry Doby, to kick off, remember it was Jackie Robinson who is recognized for breaking the color line.

But it was Larry Doby, the first African American baseball player in the American Baseball League, the Cleveland Indians.

An extraordinary man.

Go ahead Jacqui, I'm sorry.

- Yeah, and both New Jersey Hall of Fame inductees as well, which is super important.

- Yeah, I want to thank our friends at the Hall of Fame.

For Jacqui, for all of our team at "Remember Them", two amazing people who had a New Jersey connection that were historic figures, Larry Doby, Monte Irvin.

Let's remember them.

- "Remember Them" remembers and honors Larry Doby and we're joined by our longtime friend, colleague, the leader of public broadcasting in this region.

He is Neal Shapiro, President and CEO of the WNET Group, not just a big Yankee fan as well, but really appreciates, understands baseball and the significance of it as we talk about the great Larry Doby.

First African American to play in the American League, that's what people say and remember about him, but an extraordinary athlete and man.

Neal, please.

- You know, I think history is unkind in a sense that everybody remembers the pioneer and not the number two guys.

Everybody remembers Jackie Robinson.

In fact, Larry Doby went through everything in some cases even worse, except he's in the American League, he did it a little bit after Jackie.

But the same stories about being ignored by teammates, about sticking out a hand and having teammates ignore you.

I think at one point when he first got to the Indians, Joe Gordon played catch with him.

Otherwise, he was just sitting there waiting.

I mean, imagine what that must be like, how humiliating it is.

And yet, like Jackie, he never lost his temper, he was incredibly composed and incredibly inspiring.

I think he's an all-star nine times and he has a huge successful baseball career.

But he's overshadowed a little bit, and he's not the first black manager, he's the second black manager, like he's the number two in both times.

But in both cases, I think there was integrity to him, there was a decency to him.

And as I recall, when other players talk about him, it is a sense of what a pioneer he was, especially when you hear other African American athletes talk about him, how much credit he really should get that he doesn't get enough of.

- You know, it's so interesting the cover of this book that's written by Joseph Thomas Moore about Larry Doby.

And I just, Neal happened to do another segment on "Remember Them" with us about Yogi Berra.

And I just realized not even paying attention that the cover of the book has a quote from Yogi Berra, "Larry Doby's story is long overdue," as Neal just said.

"Truth is, he was a wonderful man and an exceptional ball player.

All his years on and off the field, all he meant was goodness and hope."

Let me ask you this, Neal, the significance of a Larry Doby, of Larry Doby in Baseball, It's not just baseball, it's society, it's American culture and life.

Please.

- Look, you know, I think, I think the reason that Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby are so important is not just baseball, but because what baseball was, as America's pastime, it was for whites only, right?

And this said, "No, no, this is, if it's America's past time, it's everybody's game, it's all our game."

And that means every American gets to play and every American gets to be treated equally.

And the other thing that makes baseball great is at the end of the day, though there's still plenty of prejudice there, people rose on their talent and their dedication.

And the fact that Larry Doby and Jackie were able to do what they did, despite the fact that they had detractors and hostile crowds, but their work spoke for itself.

And I think it helped to remind people, you know what?

You can try to hold onto your prejudices for so long, but guess what?

The world's moving on and these people are gonna shine and you're gonna have to deal with it.

And I think that help, if anything, helps to knock down a lot of those stereotypes is seeing the kind of success that Larry Doby was.

- We're now joined by Dr. Mark Anthony Neal, distinguished Professor of African and African American Studies at Duke University and host of the podcast, video podcast series, "Left of Black".

Dr. Neal, so good to have you with us.

- Thank you for having me today Steve.

- Well it is our honor to also honor.

We just heard from Neal Shapiro our president of the WNET Group who's a baseball aficionado talking about Larry Doby.

But we also in this show we look at Monte Irvin.

What made, umm... this extraordinary athlete, Larry Doby, so special?

- You know he was a man who was a historical second.

We make a great deal about historical firsts you know particularly in terms of African Americans who break through the color line.

And everybody knows the story of Jackie Robinson but Lary Doby of course was the second black man who broke the color line.

The first one in the American League and then he becomes historical second again you know in 1978 when he becomes the second black manager, you know.

As he becomes the manager of the Chicago White Sox in 1978.

And so I think because of the fact that he was this historical second you know he's overlooked but he went through very much the same kind of trials that Jackie Robinson went through in his life.

He often talked about the story of sliding into second base and a player literally spit on him and he had to kinda keep his cool.

You know, keep it together.

You know in order to fight the good fight another day on the field, right, as a baseball player, as opposed to you know being thrown out the league and even possibly incarcerated because of reacting to you know what's happening to him.

- Yeah as you're talking about this professor, it strikes me that Jackie Robinson and people like Lary Doby not just extraordinary athletes.

Extraordinary men.

People who had to have I mean those of us who say, "Wow they really handled themselves well" We have no idea.

What you just described is this much of what he actually I imagine he dealt with.

Character, Discipline, - Yeah, yeah.

A strength, an inner strength And that's important.

So beyond the statistics, beyond the first African American in the American League, we need to understand what a special human being he was.

- Yeah I think the thing that's important, you know, to compare Doby and Jackie Robinson that Larry Doby was younger.

You know unlike Jackie Robinson who was in the Negro Leagues but then played in the major league, minor leagues.

You know he went directly from the Newark Eagles, you know, into the league and he was only 20, 21, 22 years old.

The Newark Eagles, tell everyone - What the heck - Oh yeah - the Eagles were, they're so special.

- You know the you know Ms. Manley who owned Newark Eagles was one of the, you know, great baseball teams of the Negro, National Negro Baseball League.

And Bill Veeck, you know, who was a visionary in so many different ways, right?

You know, he... - So that Pittsburg?

Are we talking Bill Veeck Pittsburg or Bill Veeck White Sox?

- Yeah and of course, Bill Veeck White Sox, right?

- Okay go ahead.

- And at this time, the owner of the Cleveland Indians.

- Oh, Cle- I'm sorry my bad - And just like... - He brought Larry Doby in?

- Yes.

So just like, you know, Branch Rickey was looking at the Negro Leagues, - Dodgers.

- Bill Veeck was looking at it also.

And while, you know Branch Rickey chose not to pay and pay for Jackie Robinson to take him from the Negro Leagues.

Bill Veeck actually paid the Newark Eagles to be able to buy off Larry Doby's contract and chose to have him go directly from the Newark Eagles into the major leagues, right?

So on the one hand, he protected him from the experience of having to go to the minor leagues and deal with a whole 'nother level of racism that would not have been as visible, right?

But again, for him to go the Cleveland Indians.

And again he's a young man at this period of time, right?

So I think and he had a longer career.

So he actually kind of spent a longer time than Jackie Robinson really in the full weight of this greatness.

- And I wanna acknowledge that Larry Doby inducted into the New Jersey Hall of Fame 2010 again thank our friends at The Hall of Fame.

Let me ask you this, professor.

So you understand this better than most.

Racism in baseball, racism in our country.

Can you separate racism in our country from racism in baseball?

- You know there's a great book that was written by a black journalist a few years ago.

You know, talking about you know when everything was white.

Right?

The baseball was white, the players were white.

There of course were black players, you know, that existed in what was the professional leagues prior to the 20th century.

You know but you know the owners you know made a decision that they were going to erect this strict color line.

Black players weren't going to be allowed to play.

And you know it spoke on the one hand to the impact of segregation, right?

Black folks were living through segregation in so many different institutions, right?

So even if professional sports this had an impact, and you know when you look at Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby breaking the color line, right?

They did something on a stage that allowed other professional entities in the United States to really begin to think about it.

Again it begins with the military.

You know in the 1930's and 1940's, when you think about World War II, and even earlier than obviously in World War I.

But you know because baseball was America's game their willingness to make that distinction to bring black players in, I really help think pushed along the civil rights agenda later in that period of time.

And again Jackie Robinson gets a lot of credit for this but Larry Doby is right there with him.

You know when Larry Doby struggled in terms of playing the game that first year, you know he was often on the phone with Jackie Robinson you know getting advice and suggestions.

And his first... - Were they close?

- They were close - Professionally?

- In the sense that they were both professionals, they knew each other from the Negro Leagues.

But again you know Jackie's a little older so they might not have been in the same you know running circles.

But again when you know Doby begins his first full season you know in Cleveland in 1948 he's an all star.

But he also has Satchel Paige on that team, right?

- Tell everyone - He also has a great... - Tell everyone, I'm sorry Cause they talk about all - ( laughs) - Everything all white.

If Satchel Paige weren't (laughs) in baseball, let's just say I'm not sure Babe Ruth would've hit all those home runs.

- Yeah, yeah - But, but - You know again - I'm just saying - To shout out Satchel Paige.

I mean Satchel Paige was well into his 40s when he got signed by the Cleveland Indians, right?

And at that point in his career, you might've got two or three innings out of him, right?

He wasn't gonna give you a full nine like he did when he was younger.

But unquestionably folks who got to see him in his peak years say that he was one of the greatest ever, right?

So Doby benefited from having - One of the greatest pitchers ever - Ever, right?

And so Doby benefited from having the wise counsel on a baseball level from Satchel Paige.

Someone who's also going through the Jim Crow experience and who was you know older, twice his age in some cases.

And so he benefited from having him, he benefited from having the great Minnie Minoso.

You know who was a dark skinned Latino player, right?

And so the Cleveland created this situation where they had all of these players there.

You know so bounty you know so someone like Larry Doby could really be very successful, you know, as a baseball player.

And again, not to get too much into comparisons.

You know Doby doesn't go into the Baseball Hall of Fame until 1998.

You know, Jackie Robinson goes in the 1960s.

When you put their statistics together, right?

Pound for pound, they're virtually the same player.

- That's right - And there's actually some cases like you know everybody loves OPS these days.

You know it is - I'll bet Doby had a higher on base percentage than Jackie Robinson - Absolutely, right.

He you know he hit more home runs.

You know Jackie had a higher batting average, right?

He stole more bases but when you look at the greatness of what they had to do given the pressures, right?

- Yeah You know they both clearly were deserving of being a part of The Hall of Fame even though at the time when Bill Veeck signed you know Larry Doby was the great baseball player.

Roger Hornsby who made the quip you know that if he was white, right?

He would've never been signed.

- How wrong.

How wrong.

- Absolutely, absolutely.

- You know, Doctor Mark Anthony Neal from Duke University cannot thank you enough for putting the greatness of Larry Doby into perspective and helping us understand why we must remember a the only one and only Larry Doby.

Thank you so much, professor Neal.

- It was an honor to join you, Steve.

- The other way around.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- We are honored to be joined by Mr. Bob Kendrick, who's president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum.

It's good to have you with us Mr. Kendrick.

- Steve, it's an honor man.

Thanks so much for having me on the show.

- Well, it's our honor to honor and recognize Monte Irvin.

Now, you had a personal connection to Monte Irvin.

Lay that out for us please.

- You know, I pinch myself all the time.

Even in this role that I have serving as president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, there are still so many pinch me moments for me.

One of them was to hang out with Monte Irvin.

They paid me to hang out with Monte Irvin, Buck O'Neil, Minnie Miñoso, - What was he like?

Ernie Banks.

- Beyond all the statistics, - I'm sorry for interrupt.

Beyond all the statistics with the New York Giants, he bated 373 in the Negro League, lifetime batting average.

Beyond that, what kind of human being was he?

- One of the finest to ever walk the face of this earth, which is why I feel so blessed.

Yeah, he was a tremendous baseball player, and honestly, Steve, the Monte Irvin that Major League Baseball got, was just a shell of himself.

Now, a shell of Monte Irvin was still better than most guys who were playing in the major leagues at that time.

- Mr. Kendrick, was he 30?

- He was, he was 30 years old.

But what a lot of people don't know is that Monte Irvin was the Negro League's owner's choice.

If someone was going to break the color barrier, they wanted it to be Monte Irvin.

- Not Jackie Robinson, not Larry Doby, who we just recognized.

No, and Larry, of course- - No and neither one of them?

Yeah, no, no.

That's how good Monte Irvin was.

Monte Irvin was a superstar player in the Negro Leagues and as great a baseball player as he was, he was an even better human being.

He had such a gentleness, a gentle quality, a great spirit about him, but still was a fierce, dynamic competitor.

I tell people all the time, I wish Major League Baseball had gotten Monte Irvin when he was 19, 20 years old because that was - Instead of 30. nothing that he couldn't do, instead of 30.

Yeah, instead of 30.

He was that consummate five tool guy.

Steve, he had everything... - Tell everybody what the five tools are.

He could hit.

- He could hit, he hit, hit for power, hit for average, could field, could run, he could throw.

He could do it all.

- Could do it all.

- And yeah, he could flat out do it all.

And he had everything that you needed to be a superstar, movie star, good looks to go with that dynamic skillset that he brought to the table.

And Branch Rickey wanted Monte Irvin.

That was his 1st choice.

- Coach Branch Rickey, of the Dodgers, I'm sorry, Branch Rickey with the Brooklyn Dodgers.

- Yeah, no, He was the general manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers and Jackie Robinson was not Branch Rickey's first choice.

Monte Irvin was, and Branch had actually snuck and tried to sign Monte Irvin in 1945, prior to him signing Jackie Robinson.

Well, actually he didn't sign Jackie Robinson.

He took Jackie Robinson away from the Kansas Monarchs, and so- - Monarchs in the Negro Baseball League?

- Yes, from Kansas Monarchs of the Negro Leagues.

And so Monte Irvin was his first choice.

Monte had just gotten back from World War II and so Monte was suffering, what admittedly, he would call shell shock.

Today of course, we would call it posttraumatic syndrome.

But he was also, Steve, having contract squabbles with Effa Manley, the owner of the Newark Eagles.

- So tell everyone who the Newark Eagles, listen, I got this book that I, my team said, "Don't show any pictures."

This is one of my favorite books, (Bob laughing) "Baseball in Newark."

This is a historical look at baseball in Newark, largely about the Newark Eagles.

Put the Eagles in perspective, how great?

- They were a special congregation of talent.

You already mentioned Larry Doby.

He's 30 years old in 1949, and he comes up with the New York Giants, but he had a New Jersey connection, grew up in the South, but moved to Orange, New Jersey.

- Yes.

- Why?

- Well, he grew up in the South because I think, at that point in time, virtually everybody wanted get out the South.

You know, the South- - No, but why did he move to Orange?

What's the connection to Orange?

Was it the Newark Eagles?

- Well, no, no.

He had relatives there in that neck of the woods as well and that's what brought him to New Jersey where he becomes a standout multi-sport athlete while there in New Jersey and then attracted the eye of the Newark Eagles.

But you see, Monte was going to Lincoln University in Pennsylvania and where he was a multi-sport athlete there.

And so to come play for the Newark Eagles was almost secondary but he became a big star with the Eagles and Effa Manley absolutely adored Monte Irvin.

Now, she ultimately is the one that blocks Monte Irvin from going to the major leagues.

Monte Irvin could have and should have been the first to break the color barrier.

- But they wanted to keep him for themselves.

- Yeah, well, Monte Irvin had the same, he had the same qualities that we earmarked for Jackie Robinson and why Jackie was the chosen one.

Dynamic athlete, college educated, served in the military.

So he had all the necessary tools to be that first guy, but he was a much better baseball player than Jackie Robinson.

But Effa Manley stood in the way because she did not like Branch Rickey.

Yeah, and that might be putting it mildly.

And so she threatened to litigate against Branch, and that's what blocks Monte Irvin from being the first.

Branch Rickey backs off because he knows, Steve, he doesn't need a fight.

He doesn't need a public fight because the other major league owners are gonna stand in the way already to block.

- Already just because it was racism that was running rampant in America and in baseball.

I cannot thank you enough for joining us on "Remember Them" and helping us to remember an extraordinary athlete and even better human being.

Monte Irvin.

Mr. Kendrick, thank you so much.

You honor us by joining us.

Appreciate it.

- Well, it's my absolute honor to be with you, particularly to reflect on my friend Monte Irvin.

- All the best.

You take care.

I'm Steve Abubato, - Thank you guys.

for Mr. Kendrick and all the guests on "Remember Them," and our executive producer, my co-host Jacqui Tricarico.

Thank you so much for watching.

We keep remembering them.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One on One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSE&G, NJM Insurance Group.

Hackensack Meridian Health.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Prudential Financial.

Kean University.

And by New Jersey Sharing Network.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by New Jersey Monthly.

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