- [Narrator] Funding for this edition of Remember Them with Steve Adubato has been provided by PSE&G, committed to providing safe, reliable energy now and in the future.

NJM Insurance Group.

Serving New Jersey'’s drivers, homeowners and business owners for more than 100 years.

RWJBarnabas Health.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Here when you need us most, now and always.

Prudential Financial.

New Jersey Institute of Technology.

NJIT makes industry ready professionals in all STEM fields.

And by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Making a difference.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by New Jersey Monthly.

The magazine of the Garden State available at newsstands.

- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change presidents in this country is by voting.

- I'’m hopeful that this is the beginning to accountability.

- Life without dance is boring.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I did do the finale, and guess where my trailer was?

A block away from my apartment, it couldn'’t have been better!

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

-_ It'’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it'’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Remember Them", a series where we look at people who have been connected to New Jersey.

They're born here, came through here, but have had an impact on the state, the region, the nation, the world.

Jacqui Tricarico, our Executive Producer, and Co-host of the series.

Jacqui, today we look at Ed Koch.

People say, "Wait a minute, is it New York, New Jersey, Koch, New Jersey connection, right?

- Oh yeah, grew up in Newark, right Steve?

- Yeah, and also had a connection down in Trenton.

He went down and lived in Trenton for a while, and had an interesting relationship with New Jersey.

And what we're about to see is an interview we did in 1993.

I can't say we, 'cause Jacqui, were you born...

Okay, I think you were born.

- I think I was born.

Yes, I was born.

(Steve laughing) (laughs) I don't think I was watching, but I was born.

- I was very early on in my broadcast career.

You will see the difference (laughs) in so many ways.

Mostly because Ed Koch, and I was really honored to sit down with him in his New York law office.

We talked about race, we talked about his time as mayor, we talked about... Hey Jacqui Trump gets- - I know, I have to quote this, We'll see it during the interview, but I have to quote this.

- Let's not ruin it.

- We gotta quote it, listen, he says, you said to him- - Well, this is 1993.

- This is, I know.

- Go ahead, what do I ask him?

- So, he says about Trump, "I don't like him personally."

And you say, "Would he make a good politician?"

And he says, "I don't think so, because you see through him pretty quickly."

(laughs) Just to hear that when I was rewatching this interview, I was like, "Whoa."

(laughs) - People could decide for themselves.

- Right, and this is after he's retired in this interview as well.

So, he talks a little bit about that as well, and what retirement looked like for him.

- Yeah, so again, Ed Koch, born and raised in Newark, New Jersey, then Trenton connection, became the mayor of what many people consider to be the greatest city in the world, even though I'm a Newark native, there's only one New York, and only one Ed Koch.

And that's why we remember him as part of "Remember Them".

This is in fact Ed Koch from his New York office 1993 that's 29 years ago as we tape this program.

His legacy, not just in New York, not just in this region, but in the nation of the world will live on.

He used to ask all the time in praise, Jacqui, "How am I doing?"

- "How am I doing?"

(Jacqui laughs) - Well in this interview, he does pretty well, Ed Koch.

[UPLIFTING MUSIC] MR MAYOR, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON THIS SPECIAL EDITION OF CAUCUS NEW JERSEY LET'S TALK ABOUT NEW JERSEY A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THIS BUT YOU SPENT TEN YEARS IN NEWARK, FROM 7 TO 17?

>>RIGHT, WE MOVED BACK TO BROOKLYN IN 1941 AND WE CAME TO NEWARK IN 1931, DURING THE DEPRESSION >>FROM THE BRONX?

>>FROM THE BRONX, MY FATHER HAD GONE BANKRUPT HE WAS IN THE FUR INDUSTRY, AND THE PEOPLE DIDN'T BUY FUR COATS DURING THE DEPRESSION, AND WE WENT TO NEWARK, AND MY FATHER GOT A CONCESSION FOR... A CONCESSION AT KRUGER'S AUDITORIUM, WHICH NO LONGER EXISTS, IT WAS ON BELMONT AVENUE, AND I... >>THE WEEQUAHIC SECTION?

>>NO, THE WEEQUAHIC SECTION IS IN A DIFFERENT AREA FACT IS THE WEEQUAHIC SECTION, YOU HAD TO BE RICH [LAUGHTER] >>[LAUGHTER] WHAT'S YOUR FAMILY...?

>>NO WE WERE POOR WE WERE POOR, AND I... WE FIRST LIVED ON SPRUCE STREET NEAR QUITMAN, NEAR HIGH, AND ACTUALLY THE ADDRESS WAS 90 SPRUCE STREET, I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF IT'S STILL THERE AND THEN, AS WE GOT TO BETTER, ECONOMICALLY, WE MOVED TO A LITTLE BIT BETTER NEIGHBORHOOD I WOULD SAY MIDDLE INCOME LOW-MIDDLE INCOME, AND THAT WAS 61 MILFORD AVENUE, AND... >>WHAT WAS THAT NEWARK LIKE?

DESCRIBE IT >>WELL THAT NEWARK WAS A WONDERFUL LITTLE TOWN, AND UP UNTIL THE TIME WE MOVED IT WAS A WONDERFUL LITTLE TOWN >>LET'S FAST FORWARD LET'S TALK ABOUT NEW JERSEY TODAY >>YEAH >>ALRIGHT, NEW YORK NEW JERSEY RELATIONS, I REMEMBER AN AD MANY YEARS AGO WHEN YOU WERE MAYOR, WHERE THERE WAS A PICTURE OF YOU BY THE LINCOLN TUNNEL, I THINK IT WAS, AND YOU WERE... >>IT WAS THE HOLLAND TUNNEL >>THE HOLLAND TUNNEL, AND YOU WERE SHUTTING IT... >>RIGHT, SHUTTING IT OFF >>SO YOU HAD BUSINESS SHUTTING IT OFF SO THAT BUSINESS COULD NO LONGER GO FROM >>YEAH >>NEW YORK TO NEW JERSEY >>YEAH, WELL WE WERE MAKING A STATEMENT.

IN THOSE DAYS, YOU KNOW, I BECAME MAYOR IN 1978 ACTUALLY ELECTED IN '77 AND THE CITY WAS ON THE BALLS OF ITS REAR END, AND BUSINESSES HAD LEFT, AND WE HAD LOST HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF JOBS, AND EVERYBODY WAS IN A TERRIBLE STATE OF MIND, AND I HAD TO DO TWO THINGS.

ONE, I HAD TO BRING THE CITY BACK TO FISCAL STABILITY AND EQUALLY IMPORTANT, GIVE THE CITY A SPIRIT WHICH HAD DISAPPEARED.

AND SO, YOU KNOW I'M, PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE THIS BUT I'M A VERY RETIRING SHY PERSON, I KNOW FIND IT HARD TO >>[LAUGHTER] >>BELIEVE, IN MY PRIVATE LIFE >>BUT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE?

>>YES I DO, BUT IN MY PUBLIC LIFE I REALIZED THAT YOU CAN'T BE SHY AND RETIRING AND GET PEOPLE TO FOLLOW YOU AND BE THE LEADER OF THE CITY, SO YOU WILL FIND THAT IT'S NOT A FALSE PERSONALITY PEOPLE HAVE SEVERAL ASPECTS TO THEIR PERSONALITY, AND WHEN YOU'RE ON STAGE, AS MAYOR, YOU'RE 24 HOURS A DAY, YOU HAVE TO >>RIGHT >>CREATE THAT SPECIAL CHARISMATIC SPIRIT.

WAS, TALK TO US ABOUT THE NEW YORK NEW JERSEY THING >>WELL WHAT HAPP... YEAH, SURE >>WHY IS THERE SO MUCH INTENSE COMPETITION?

WE TALK ABOUT A GLOBAL ECONOMY, WE'RE ALL... >>YEAH >>WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A REGIONAL ECONOMY, COMPETING >>WELL THE.. >>WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD >>THOSE ARE ALL WORDS LET ME EXPLAIN TO YOU WHAT THE >>WHAT ARE WE REALLY?

>>SITUATION IS.

IF EVERY JURISDICTION, WHETHER IT WAS NEW JERSEY AND NEW YORK AND CONNECTICUT AND PENNSYLVANIA DIDN'T GIVE GOVERNMENTAL SUBSIDIES TO ATTRACT BUSINESSES TO EITHER STAY OR TO COME TO THE AREA, I THINK WE'D WIPE THE FLOOR WITH EVERYBODY, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE TO COMPETE WITH THE FOLLOWING THAT NEW JERSEY SAYS, PARTICULARLY JERSEY CITY WILL GIVE YOU LOWER RENTS WILL GIVE YOU LOWER ELECTRICITY WILL GIVE YOU LOWER TAXES AND WE HAVE TO DO THE SAME BUT WE CANNOT ALWAYS MEET YOU DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR, BECAUSE IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE TO DO BUSINESS IN THE BOROUGH OF MANHATTAN, THIS IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE LAND IN THE WORLD AND...

CAUSE IT'S NARROW IT'S SMALL, IT'S VERY EXPENSIVE >>RIGHT >>AND SO WE HAD TO MEET TO SOME DEGREE THE COMPETITION AND ALSO, TO ATTRACT ATTENTION TO WHAT WE WERE DOING.

AND ONE OF THE WAYS YOU ATTRACT ATTENTION IS, YOU HIRE MADISON AVENUE PEOPLE WHO COME UP WITH A CAMPAIGN, THEIR CAMPAIGN WAS TO SAY, WE'RE NOT GONNA LET YOU OUT OF TOWN... >>SO THAT'S WHY YOU SHUT DOWN >>YES >>THE HOLLAND TUNNEL?

>>KOCH IS GONNA BE LIKE HORATIO AT THE BRIDGE, ONLY IN THIS CASE IT'S THE HOLLAND TUNNEL >>OKAY, TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT NEW JERSEY, SOMEBODY THAT, YOU KNOW FAIRLY WELL >>YEAH >>JIM FLORIO >>I LIKE HIM.

NOW WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THE FIRST TIME HE RAN AND I SUPPORTED HIM, I DIDN'T LIKE HIM >>1989?

>>NO, IT WASN'T 1989... >>EXCUSE ME, 1981, I'M SORRY >>YEAH...

RIGHT >>CAUSE HE WON IN '89 >>YEAH I DIDN'T REALLY LIKE HIM I DID IT BECAUSE OF PARTY LOYALTY AND I CAME TO KNOW AND TO LIKE TOM KEAN >>HIS OPPONENT IN '81 >>YES, WHO WON >>RIGHT >>AND WE STILL REMAIN GOOD FRIENDS >>YOU AND TOM KEAN?

>>YES, BUT WHEN GOVERNOR FLORIO RAN THE SECOND TIME, AND I HELPED AGAIN I CAME TO LIKE HIM I THINK IT WAS HIS CURRENT WIFE THAT CHANGED HIM [LAUGHTER] >>LUCINDA?

>>YEAH, I THINK SHE MADE HIM I DON'T KNOW, MORE COMPASSIONATE, MORE RESPONSIVE MORE HUMAN >>LET ME SAY THIS TO YOU MAYOR I'VE INTERVIEWED THE GOVERNOR >>YEAH >>MANY MANY TIMES I WILL IN ALL HONESTY, I HAVEN'T ALWAYS SEEN THOSE CHARACTERISTICS COME OUT >>YEAH >>MAYBE HE HAS TO FEEL PARTICULARLY COMFORTABLE WITH YOU... >>IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW HIM WHEN HE DIDN'T HAVE HIM [LAUGHTER] >>YOU'RE RIGHT YOU HAVE A POINT ABOUT THAT, BUT DO YOU HAVE A SENSE, LET'S, PERSONALITY ASIDE >>YEAH >>LET'S TALK TAX POLICY JIM FLORIO RAISES TAXES 2.8 BILLION DOLLARS, THERE'S... >>HE DID THE RIGHT THING >>THEN WHY DIDN'T HE... >>ONLY HE DIDN'T SELL IT RIGHT ABSOLUTELY HE DID THE RIGHT THING YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT NEW JERSEY WAS IN DESPERATE NEED OF MONEY FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES, TO DEAL WITH ITS INSURANCE PROBLEMS AND THE WAY TAXES WERE THEN IN EFFECT AND THE VARIOUS COSTS OF INSURANCE, ET CETERA, THE PEOPLE WHO WERE GETTING HIT WERE THE LOW INCOME PEOPLE AND WHAT HE DID WAS TO SPREAD THE PAIN, AND TO ADD TO NEW JERSEY'S INCOME SO YOU COULD DO MORE FOR EDUCATION, AND HELP THE POOR AREAS, AND I MUST SAY WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM AS I DID ON MY SUNDAY SHOW >>YOU WERE AT WCBS AT THE TIME?

>>AT THE TIME, YEAH, I SAID TO HIM GOVERNOR, WHAT YOU DID IS RIGHT BUT I DON'T THINK YOU SOLD IT AND THAT WILL COME BACK TO HAUNT YOU >>IS IS A QUESTION OF MARKETING WITH PEOPLE >>YES >>BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID IT'S WRONG, WE DON'T WANT TAXES RAISED >>NO >>ARE YOU SAYING THAT DESPITE THE POLICY ITSELF THAT THE MESSENGER IS AS IMPORTANT, IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT >>YEAH >>THAN THE MESSAGE ITSELF?

>>I WOULDN'T SAY THE "MESSENGER" THE "MESSAGE" BECAUSE IN THIS >>AND HOW IT'S PACKAGED?

>>CASE, YEAH HOW IT'S PACKAGED I MEAN, I BELIEVE THAT GOVERNOR FLORIO IS A COURAGEOUS INTELLIGENT MAN, WHO HAS DONE A MAGNIFICENT JOB, AND HAS NOT BEEN ADEQUATELY APPRECIATED BUT WILL BE WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME AND TODAY WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME HE'S MUCH MORE POPULAR THAN HE WAS WHEN THE REPUBLICANS TOOK BOTH HOUSES >>OF THE LEGISLATURE >>OF THE LEGISLATURE >>SO YOU SAY HE WINS THIS FALL?

>>WELL, I MEAN I DON'T KNOW NEW JERSEY WELL ENOUGH TO SAY THAT BUT I CERTAINLY HOPE HE DOES AND >>YOUR GUT TELLS YOU THAT?

OKAY >>BELIEVE HE SHOULD >>GO BACK FOR A SECOND QUICK COMMENT ON TOM KEAN YOU SAID HE WAS A GOOD FRIEND >>OH YEAH HE'S A... >>WHAT DID YOU LIKE ABOUT HIM?

>>WELL HE HAS A MARVELOUS PERSONALITY, A REALLY WARM GUY WHO I THINK RARELY MADE AN ENEMY I MEAN EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T AGREE WITH HIM POLITICALLY, DEMOCRATS A LOT OF THEM, LIKED HIM.

AND THERE ARE PEO...

THIS IS GENETIC, THIS IS I MEAN, A PERSONALITY AND CHARACTER, I THINK, ARE MOSTLY GENETIC.

THE IMPACT OF PEOPLE AROUND YOU HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT... >>SO EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS A LOT OF COMPETITION BETWEEN NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY FOR JOBS >>OH WE WE'RE ALWAYS VERY CLOSE >>SPORTS TEAMS, THE WHOLE B... >>FRIENDS, AND STILL ARE >>IN SPITE ALL THAT?

>>YES >>A COUPLE OF OTHER NAMES BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS ON YOUR RADIO SHOW ON WABC, PEOPLE >>YEAH >>CALL YOU UP >>SURE >>THEY WANT YOUR OPINION ON THINGS, WELL, WE WANT YOUR OPINION ON SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE IN NEW JERSEY OR CONNECTED TO >>YEAH >>NEW JERSEY.

DONALD TRUMP SEEMS LIKE HE'S MAKING A COMEBACK, BIG IN ATLANTIC CITY >>HE PROBABLY IS, HE'S A BRASH BRAGGOT WHO I DON'T PERSONALLY LIKE AND HE DOESN'T LIKE ME AND >>OVERRATED?

>>WELL IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT >>AS A BUSINESSMAN >>HE WAS A GOOD DEVELOPER HE BUILT STRUCTURES THAT ARCHITECTURALLY WERE QUITE TERRIFIC, I JUST DON'T LIKE HIM PERSONALLY, THE FACT IS I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO LIKES HIM PERSONALLY!

[LAUGHTER] >>[LAUGHTER] WOULD HE MAKE A GOOD POLITICIAN?

>>OH I DON'T THINK SO, BECAUSE YOU SEE THROUGH HIM VERY QUICKLY >>OKAY >>YOU KNOW... DO YOU KNOW HOW HE WAS SUMMED UP BY THE DEPUTY MAYOR ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT SHE'S IN MY ADMINISTRATION, SHE SAID "I WOULDN'T BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP IF HIS TONGUE WAS NOTARIZED" >>I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO LAUGH AT THIS STUFF... BILL BRADLEY?

>>WELL, I LIKE BILL BRADLEY AND OBVIOUSLY HE'S ONE OF THOSE HEROIC FIGURES, GREAT ATHLETE AND ALSO A GREAT SCHOLAR, AND HE HAS GREAT COURAGE TOO HE DID TWO THINGS THAT I THINK STAND OUT THAT PEOPLE DON'T REALLY APPRECIATE.

ONE WAS HE VOTED CORRECTLY IN SUPPORT OF THE CONTRAS, WHEN THE DEMOCRATIC RADICALS, AND I'M A DEMOCRAT, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO WERE RUNNING OUR PARTY FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME WERE THE RADICALS IN OUR PARTY RATHER THAN THE VAST MAJORITY OF MODERATE MAINSTREAM DEMOCRATS BUT WHEN THE RADICALS WERE SUPPORTING ORTEGA, AND WERE AGAINST THE CONTRAS IN NICARAGUA BRADLEY STOOD UP TO THEM, AND SUPPORTED THE CONTRAS, THE SECOND THING HE DID WAS TO TALK ABOUT BLACK VIOLENCE, AND THAT YOU KNOW, IS NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT, AND HE STOOD UP ON THE SENATE FLOOR, AND HIS FAMOUS LINE, AS I RECALL IT WAS AND NOBODY SAYS "STOP" HE WENT THROUGH A WHOLE HOST OF THINGS WHERE IT WASN'T AN ATTACK UPON THE BLACK COMMUNITY IT WAS AN ATTACK UPON A PORTION OF THAT COMMUNITY, AND EVERY COMMUNITY, WHITE ASIAN HISPANIC WE ALL HAVE PREDATORS, BUT REGRETTABLY, BECAUSE OF THE BREAKDOWN IN THE BLACK FAMILY STRUCTURE, WHICH PEOPLE ARE ONCE AGAIN TALKING ABOUT YOU HAVE A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY WHO ARE COMMITTING CRIMES OF VIOLENCE, I MEAN THE THE NUMBER IS ACTUALLY FOUR... >>EXCUSE ME, I THINK HE SAID RECENTLY, YOU SAID, IT WAS A STATISTIC THAT YOU CITED, YOU SAID 45 PERCENT OF THE VIOLENT CRIME >>YEAH >>IS COMMITTED BY 6 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION, BLACK MALES >>THAT'S CORRECT, THOSE ARE FIGURES THAT COME FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT >>SOMEONE MIGHT SAY, MR MAYOR THAT THOSE COMMENTS ARE INFLAMMATORY, YOU WOULD SAY?

>>I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE SAY THAT TO ME, I SAY, YOU MEAN YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE TRUTH?

YOU KNOW, WHEN THE...

THE PEOPLE WHO SUFFER FROM THOSE CRIMINALS, ARE OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK VICTIMS OVERWHELMINGLY IT IS THE BLACK COMMUNITY THAT IS VICTIMIZED BY A SMALL GROUP OF PREDATORS IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY >>SO WHY IS THAT SO MANY BLACKS SEEM TO BE...

SEEM TO RESENT SO MUCH WHEN A WHITE POLITICIAN OR A WHITE EX-POLITICIAN SPEAKS ABOUT THE NUMBER OF CRIMES COMMITTED BY BLACK MALES?

>>WELL THAT IS WHY BILL BRADLEY WAS SO COURAGEOUS, HE HAD NO FEAR, AND HE STOOD UP, AND HE TALKED ABOUT IT >>HE'S THE EXCEPTION?

IN THE >>WELL I LIKE TO THINK I'M ONE OF >>SENATE...

IN THE SENATE... >>THE EXCEPTIONS TOO [LAUGHTER] >>OKAY, BUT IN THE SENATE AMONG >>YES, OH YES, FOR EXAMPLE PAY MOYNIHAN, 30 YEARS AGO WITH NATHAN GLAZER, TALKED ABOUT THE >>POVERTY >>BREAKDOWN IN THE BLACK FAMILY >>RIGHT >>AND HE WAS PILLORIED, AND HE WAS EXCORIATED, AND HE SAID TO ME BEFORE HE BECAME A SENATOR THAT HE WAS NEVER EVER GONNA TALK ABOUT THAT AGAIN, BECAUSE UNFAIRLY, HE WAS VILIFIED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH, WHICH WAS THAT YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH A CANCER THAT EXISTED IN OUR SOCIETY, THE DISAFFILIATED IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY, WHICH CAME IN LARGE PART, FROM A BREAKDOWN IN THE FAMILY STRUCTURE.

HE HAD TO ADDRESS THAT ISSUE.

BUT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT AND THAT'S NOT JUST BLACKS DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT >>WHITE LIBERALS DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT?

>>WHITE RADICALS WHITE LIBERALS THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT >>HAS IT CHANGED AT ALL MR MAYOR?

I MEAN, ARE WE MORE >>OH YES IT'S CHANGING >>WILLING TO TALK CANDIDLY ABOUT RACE?

>>OH YES, BLACKS ARE WILLING TO TALK ABOUT IT MORE CANDIDLY TODAY, IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT JESSE JACKSON, HIS GREATEST MESSAGE FOR WHICH HE HAS TO RECEIVE A LOT OF APPLAUSE AND I HAVE NOT SUPPORTED JESSE JACKSON FOR OTHER MESSAGES WHICH I DISAGREED WITH >>LARGELY HAVING TO DO WITH ISRAEL?

>>NO THAT'S ONLY A SMALL PART OF IT LARGELY HAVING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT HE EMBRACED CASTRO AND... >>AND ARAFAT?

>>AND ARAFAT, AND HIS MESSAGE IN MY JUDGEMENT, AT TIMES, WAS WILDLY RADICAL BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE TO PRAISE HIM WHICH I DID, FOR TALKING ABOUT PERSONAL OBLIGATION AND FAMILY OBLIGATION, AND STAYING IN SCHOOL, AND NOT TAKING DRUGS, I MEAN HE WAS A MODEL FOR BLACK YOUTHS >>WHAT IS DAVID DINKINS' PROBLEM AS MAYOR?

>>WELL HE HAS SEVERAL PROBLEMS LET ME SEE IF I CAN SORT THEM OUT THE FIRST IS, YOU EITHER HAVE CHARISMATIC LEADERSHIP QUALITIES OR YOU DON'T.

HE DOESN'T.

THAT'S NOT HIS FAULT, HE JUST DOESN'T.

AND THIS CITY NEEDS IT AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING THROUGH A DIFFICULT TIME SO THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

THE 2ND IS, HE HAS BROUGHT A PHILOSOPHY TO THIS CITY, WHICH I THINK IS VERY DESTRUCTIVE AND THAT IS HE BELIEVES IN RACIAL QUOTAS.

RACIAL QUOTAS IN ASSIGNMENT OF JOBS IN HIRING, RACIAL QUOTAS IN THE AWARDING OF CONTRACTS, NOT ON THE BASIS OF MERIT, I WOULDN'T CARE IF EVERYBODY IN HIS GOVERNMENT WERE BLACK IF THEY WERE THE BEST OF ALL THOSE WHO APPLIED.

NOR IF EVERYBODY WAS WHITE.

IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY WHAT WORKS IS THAT YOU HAVE SMART WHITES AND DUMB WHITES SMART BLACKS AND DUMB BLACKS AND YOU KNOW, IT'S THE BELL CURVE WE'RE ALL SUBJECT TO IT, BUT HE HAS PEOPLE, AND HE SUPPORTS THEM LIKE HAZEL DUKES, WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE NEW YORK STATE NAACP.

A RACIST OF THE FIRST ORDER.

HOW DO I KNOW THAT?

SHE'S THE PRESIDENT OF OTB APPOINTED BECAUSE SHE WAS... >>OFF-TRACK BETTING, RIGHT... >>OFF-TRACK BETTING, BECAUSE SHE WAS DAVID DINKINS' CAMPAIGN MANAGER, ONE OF THEM, AND SHE FIRED NINE WHITES AT THE TOP LEVELS AND HIRED EIGHT BLACKS AND ONE HISPANIC, AND SHE WAS CHARGED WITH DISCRIMINATION AND PRIMA FACIE CASES HAVE ALREADY BEEN ESTABLISHED IN AT LEAST FOUR CASES, I THINK BEFORE THE FEDERAL AGENCY >>MR MAYOR, YOU'VE SAID OF YOUR FORMER POLITICAL OPPONENT MARIO CUOMO, YOU SAID A LOT OF THINGS ABOUT HIM, BUT ONE THING THAT I READ, YOU SAID ABOUT HIM THERE IS LESS THERE THAN MEETS THE EYE >>YEAH [LAUGHTER] WELL YOU KNOW I HAVE... >>DO YOU REGRET SAYING THAT?

>>NO, I DON'T REGRET ANYTHING I'VE SAID.

SOMETIMES I SAY, I KNOW I HAVE TO PAY FOR IT, BUT I DON'T REGRET >>[LAUGHTER] >>SAYING IT, NO.

LIFE'S TOO SHORT TO REGRET TELLING THE TRUTH.

THIS IS MY FEELING ABOUT MARIO CUOMO, HE'S A VERY GIFTED MAN BUT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, THAT IF YOU EXAMINE MANY OF THE STATEMENTS THAT HE MAKES EVEN THE SPEECH THAT HE MADE IN SAN FRANCISCO, SUBSTANTIVELY THERE'S NOTHING THERE, OR VERY LITTLE, BUT IT IS... >>HIS SPEECH AT THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION >>BEAUTIFULLY EXECUTED, I MEAN WHAT I HAVE SAID ON OCCASION IS MARIO CUOMO IS THE ONLY PERSON I KNOW WHO CAN TAKE ANY FIVE ENGLISH WORDS AND TURN IT INTO A JAPANESE HAIKU, INEXPLICABLE AND SIGNIFYING NOTHING NOW THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE DOESN'T SAY MANY GOOD THINGS, AND HE'S A WONDERFUL SPEAKER AND I THINK HE'S BEEN A GOOD GOVERNOR I REMEMBER A CAMPAIGN, I WAS VERY YOUNG, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE >>YEAH >>RIVER, BUT WATCHING IT ON NEW YORK TELEVISION A HEATED BATTLE BETWEEN YOU AND MARIO CUOMO A VERY FAMOUS, OR INFAMOUS SLOGAN THAT CAME OUT OF THE CUOMO CAMPAIGN...

VICIOUS >>YEAH >>COMMENT, AND IT WAS, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, VOTE FOR CUOMO, NOT THE HOMO >>YEAH THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE DID NOW I WON'T TELL YOU THAT THE GOVERNOR ORIGINATED THAT CAMPAIGN, BUT HIS CAMPAIGN MANAGERS DID, AND I NEVER FORGAVE HIM FOR IT, AND I SAID THAT PUBLICLY CAUSE HE DID IT... >>EVEN TOOK AN AD >>OH YEAH, SURE, HE DID IT TWICE HE DID IT IN '77, HIS CAMPAIGN DID IT AND AGAIN, WHEN WE RAN AGAINST ONE ANOTHER IN 1982 FOR GOVERNOR, ONE OF HIS... >>FOR GOVERNOR, 1ST TIME FOR MAYOR, 2ND TIME FOR GOVERNOR >>YEAH ONE OF HIS PEOPLE UPSTATE DID EXACTLY THE SAME THING, AND THEN HE REWARDED ONE OF HIS CAMPAIGN MANAGERS WHO WAS DISBARRED HERE, IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK, FOR UNETHICAL ACTION, FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME, I THINK IT'S 5 YEARS, AND HE GAVE HIM A JOB AND I HAVE ALWAYS SAID PROBABLY THAT IS THE WORST THING THAT HE HAS EVER DONE IN HIS WHOLE LIFE >>ED KOCH YOU'VE SPENT 25 YEARS IN PUBLIC LIFE, PUBLIC SERVICE AND MANY MORE OBVIOUSLY BEING OUT IN PUBLIC, BUT AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN I'M SURE YOU'VE BEEN ASKED THIS BEFORE, BUT HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE REMEMBERED 20 - 30 YEARS DOWN THE LINE?

>>WELL, I LOVED BEING THE MAYOR OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK, BUT I HAVE NO REGRETS THAT I'M NO LONGER MAYOR, AND I HAVE NO REGRETS THAT I LOST.

THE PEOPLE DID ME A FAVOR IN A WAY, THEY EXTENDED MY LIFE.

I'M ENJOYING MY LIFE EVERY DAY OF IT >>YOU'RE HEALTHIER >>OH YES, I GO TO THE GYM EVERY DAY, FIVE DAYS A WEEK, I HAVE A PERSONAL TRAINER, I LOOK LIKE A GREEK GOD, I LOST 40 POUNDS >>[LAUGHTER] >>I KEPT OFF ABOUT 30 OF THEM >>AND YOU MADE MONEY, YOU MADE MONEY LOSING WEIGHT?

>>YES I DID, I DID, I DID, I... >>YOU ARE THE ULTIMATE CAPITALIST?

>>YES I, WELL I AM A CAPITALIST AND SUCCESSFUL AT IT TOO, BUT I LOVE THIS COUNTRY, AND I LOVE THIS CITY, AND I THINK I GAVE SOMETHING TO THIS CITY, AND I HOPE I WILL BE REMEMBERED NOT PRIMARILY FOR BRINGING FISCAL STABILITY TO THE CITY, WHICH I DID BROUGHT ITS FIRST BALANCED BUDGET IN 15 YEARS AND THEN HAD 10 BALANCED BUDGETS BEFORE I TURNED IT OVER TO MAYOR DAVID DINKINS, BUT I PREFER TO BE REMEMBERED AS SOMEONE WHO STOOD UP AND DEFENDED NEW YORK CITY AND GAVE IT BACK ITS SENSE OF PRIDE WITHOUT ARROGANCE AND MADE PEOPLE FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEMSELVES So there he is, the incomparable Ed Koch from 1993 in New York city.

This is one of my favorite books, this is Koch's autobiography.

And you know what, Jacqui, in this book, Ed Koch, as part of our "Remember Them" series (sighs), he talks a lot about his campaigns against Mario Cuomo.

And I've often said this, in 2002 at the New Jersey Performing Arts Center, the interview I did with an entire hour with Mario Cuomo, in all the years, I've been a a broadcaster is the most memorable, the most significant, most powerful, other than my good friend, Eric LaGrand from Rutgers University, it's a whole 'nother story, but those two interviews stick out in my mind, but Cuomo and Koch had a terrible relationship, especially when they were political opponents, Jacqui.

- Yeah, and he talked about it in the interview, but the whole ad campaign, "Vote for Cuomo, not the homo."

I mean, to hear him say that out loud, and to hear that part of his history with Mario Cuomo is so jarring, and I can't imagine something like that happening today.

I mean, it just wouldn't happen today.

So, hearing about that part of his political career was really jarring, and I think, important to hear.

- Well, put this in perspective, the campaign manager for Mario Cuomo running against Ed Koch, I believe it was for governor, (sighs) could have been for mayor, or I think it was for governor, was Andrew Cuomo, a very young Andrew Cuomo.

It is said, that it was in fact Andrew Cuomo convincing his dad, the candidate, that "Vote for Cuomo, not the homo."

To quote, the ad campaign was a commercial spot.

Koch talks about it, it was vicious, it was personal, it was a different time in our nation, in our world, people... you would never get away with that.

You shouldn't have been able to get away with it then.

- Right, and what's even more mind blowing is, it wasn't the first time he heard that slogan come out of their office, and he talked about that in the interview.

So, it wasn't even the first time, which is unbelievable that that happened once and even twice.

- Yeah, so again, we remember Ed Koch, connected to Newark, New Jersey born and raised, but across the river in New York became America's mayor, if you will, of New York city.

So, for Jacqui Tricarico, and the entire "Remember Them" team, I wanna thank you for being with us.

We're gonna be looking at a whole range of other people: James Gandofini, Whitney Houston, Larry Doby, Yogi Berra, the list goes on.

Woodrow, two presidents, Jacqui, Woodrow Wilson is one, who's the other one from New Jersey, remember them?

- I don't know, you tell me.

- Grover Cleveland, Caldwell New Jersey.

I'm just saying, remember them, they're worth remembering.

And this one was Ed Koch for Jacqui, myself, the entire team, thank you for being with us for "Remember Them".

Just remember us, see you next time.

- [Narrator] Remember Them with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSE&G, NJM Insurance Group.

RWJBarnabas Health.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Prudential Financial.

New Jersey Institute of Technology.

And by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by New Jersey Monthly.